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US Men's National Team (15 Viewers)

The Z Machine said:
There are valid reasons for college soccer.  They don't surpass the reasons for NOT having college soccer IMO.
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I don't get this. 

I don't want to argue it because I have a feeling we are talking about two entirely different things.  You seem to be focused on the .001% of players who may go pro (and aren't effected by college soccer much at all anymore). 

I am more interested in keeping college soccer for the rest who still want to play but know they won't be pros.  It is healthier for the entire culture of the sport in our country.  Cutting the legs of off kids at 18 years old just because they were not in the top .001% of players to get in academy seems crazy to me.

Are you also in favor of getting rid of music, dance, arts, and 99.5% of all college sports participants since the kids who participate in those also won't be going pro in those?

 
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El Floppo said:
Why have college at all, imo. Or anything.
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I don't think colleges should be in the business of sport.  They should be in the business of education, research, and cultural development.

Leave sport to professionals or amateurs.  Don't half-### it with scholarships and such.

 
The Z Machine said:
I don't think colleges should be in the business of sport.  They should be in the business of education, research, and cultural development.

Leave sport to professionals or amateurs.  Don't half-### it with scholarships and such.
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Do you feel this way with all college sports? Tennis? Track? Football? Basketball?

 
gianmarco said:
Do you feel this way with all college sports? Tennis? Track? Football? Basketball?
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The ironic thing is that sports are very much a significant part of American culture, which is something he seems to want colleges to promote.

 
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gianmarco said:
Do you feel this way with all college sports? Tennis? Track? Football? Basketball?
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Yes.  Absolutely.

I used to like college sports.  Then I got into European football, and the whole exploitation of college athletes started to really bother me.  Plus it was detrimental to the USMNT player pool (IMO).  So the answer to me is to NOT have college sports.  All pro sports should be clubs + development academies.

 
The Z Machine said:
What is selfish?  The fact that I value the improvement of the USMNT and MLS Pros over kids getting scholarship $?
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There are 45,000 kids who play college soccer at any given time, of which maybe 50, will become pros, and of the 50, maybe 2 will be USMNT level players.

It is selfish to remove soccer from as a choice from the enormous remainder of kids who want to play when none of them were ever going to effect the USMNT in any way shape or form no matter what development track they took.

 
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NewlyRetired said:
I give up.  I can't stand this level of selfishness.

:(
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NR, i love your contributions to this thread.  You're a treasure here.  I don't mean to offend.  I don't suggest that parents stop trying to get their kids scholarship money.  Rather, I'm saying that I'd prefer that those scholarships didn't exist.

 
I had no chance of ever sniffing any high level competitive soccer but I’m damn glad I got to play in college. 

 
NewlyRetired said:
There are 45,000 kids who play college soccer at any given time, of which maybe 50, will become pros, and of the 50, maybe 2 will be USMNT level players.

It is selfish to remove soccer from as a choice from the enormous remainder of kids who want to play when none of them were ever going to effect the USMNT in any way shape or form no matter what development track they took.
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45,000 kids are playing scholarship level college soccer??? That's nuts.

I don't want to limit choice.  I am just suggesting that a) high level college soccer has set back USMNT development, and b) colleges should not be in the business of paying kids to play sports with their logo on the shirt.

 
The Z Machine said:
NR, i love your contributions to this thread.  You're a treasure here.  I don't mean to offend.  I don't suggest that parents stop trying to get their kids scholarship money.  Rather, I'm saying that I'd prefer that those scholarships didn't exist.
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Music, debate, theater, art etc, etc...extracurricular activities that can get help with tuition. Out with those too?

 
The Z Machine said:
Rather, I'm saying that I'd prefer that those scholarships didn't exist.
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That is quite different from saying college soccer should not exist (something you have repeatedly said).

I would not agree with it but I would also not argue that point, it seems reasonable enough to me as an opinion.

Eliminating college soccer entirely seems quite unreasonable to me no matter how I look at it.

 
The Z Machine said:
45,000 kids are playing scholarship level college soccer??? .
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No, just college soccer in general.

Your stance was college soccer should not exist, which is what we are discussing.

If your point has now been made more specific to be college soccer could exist but with out scholarships, that is fine with me.

 
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NewlyRetired said:
That is quite different from saying college soccer should not exist (something you have repeatedly said).

I would not agree with it but I would also not argue that point, it seems reasonable enough to me as an opinion.

Eliminating college soccer entirely seems quite unreasonable to me no matter how I look at it.
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Ok, point taken.  I have no problem with colleges doing intramurals or even friendly games between schools.  But they shouldn't pay students to engage in those activities, which are really all about promoting their brand.

 
The Z Machine said:
45,000 kids are playing scholarship level college soccer??? That's nuts.

I don't want to limit choice.  I am just suggesting that a) high level college soccer has set back USMNT development, and b) colleges should not be in the business of paying kids to play sports with their logo on the shirt.
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How is high level college soccer limiting anything at this point? If anything, it's the opposite. 

Kids get aid for all kinds of non academic reasons... I see it as no different than any of those.

 
Why is it one or the other with academies/college?  Not every academy player is going pro, not even close.  
 

Kids’ parents aren’t going to invest they and their child’s time (and possibly money) in soccer without a return on that investment, be it a future professional career or an offset to future college tuition (full or partial).  They’re not going to take the risk of their kids getting chewed up and spit out at 18 or younger with no fallback plan.

Take the best pro academies is the US (for argument’s sake, we’ll say FC Dallas and Philly).  Sure, they sign a bunch of homegrown players, but the majority of their academy grads get D1 soccer scholarships.  That’s the real selling point for parents pursuing soccer for their kids:  college scholarships at a minimum.

 
Ted Lange as your Bartender said:
Why is it one or the other with academies/college?  Not every academy player is going pro, not even close.  
 

Kids’ parents aren’t going to invest they and their child’s time (and possibly money) in soccer without a return on that investment, be it a future professional career or an offset to future college tuition (full or partial).  They’re not going to take the risk of their kids getting chewed up and spit out at 18 or younger with no fallback plan.

Take the best pro academies is the US (for argument’s sake, we’ll say FC Dallas and Philly).  Sure, they sign a bunch of homegrown players, but the majority of their academy grads get D1 soccer scholarships.  That’s the real selling point for parents pursuing soccer for their kids:  college scholarships at a minimum.
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It's a negative return on investment for most of them.  The ones getting scholarships  aren't getting a full ride.  There are 10 available at most and fewer than that at most D1 schools.  More kids in academy will turn pro than kids who get more in scholarship money than parents invest in soccer.

 
BassNBrew said:
It's a negative return on investment for most of them.  The ones getting scholarships  aren't getting a full ride.  There are 10 available at most and fewer than that at most D1 schools.  More kids in academy will turn pro than kids who get more in scholarship money than parents invest in soccer.
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Investment in terms of time committed is hard to quantify but it is real and I agree it has to be taken into account.

But investment in terms of money is quantifiable.  The kids in the MLS academies are playing there for free almost every where in MLS.  Any money earned for college in terms of either scholarships or a path to a good D3 school via admissions help, is gravy.

 
NewlyRetired said:
Any money earned for college in terms of either scholarships or a path to a good D3 school via admissions help, is gravy.
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Exactly.

Not to get into the idea that what our kids learn by competing at high levels is something beyond the ultimate pro paycheck that won't be there at the end.

 
This is a crazy discussion, but the reality is it's missing a big piece.  One of the reason there aren't sports scholarships in much of Europe is because in much of Europe University is free.  This discussion really starts to get political if you really delve into it.

Aside from that, we just watched a semi-pro team in England face an EPL team.  That is never going to happen in the US in our lifetimes.  Kids not good enough to play for top teams in England can still get their soccer fix with club and semi-pro teams(and even make a small check for it).  Hell, they can play until they're 40 on those teams.  We don't have that opportunity for most of our youth and so college soccer is really the one place they have a chance to play competitive soccer in their late teens, early 20s.  

 
NewlyRetired said:
Investment in terms of time committed is hard to quantify but it is real and I agree it has to be taken into account.

But investment in terms of money is quantifiable.  The kids in the MLS academies are playing there for free almost every where in MLS.  Any money earned for college in terms of either scholarships or a path to a good D3 school via admissions help, is gravy.
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Maybe it's changed with all the big transfers and MLS taking over, but we were still paying for shoes, laundry, college camps/showcases, travel expenses to practice, outside training, and years of paying in before getting accepted at an academy.  Then add to that parent travel expenses.  The actual club fees were a drop in the bucket.  

Playing is fun and lots of good lessons to be learn and other benefits.  I'm just stating any parent thinking they are going to see any +EV investing in soccer in scholarship return is poorly mistaken.  If you're a parent and what to play the EV+ game, have female children or encourage your kids to play football.

 
encaitar said:
This is a crazy discussion, but the reality is it's missing a big piece.  One of the reason there aren't sports scholarships in much of Europe is because in much of Europe University is free.  This discussion really starts to get political if you really delve into it.

Aside from that, we just watched a semi-pro team in England face an EPL team.  That is never going to happen in the US in our lifetimes.  Kids not good enough to play for top teams in England can still get their soccer fix with club and semi-pro teams(and even make a small check for it).  Hell, they can play until they're 40 on those teams.  We don't have that opportunity for most of our youth and so college soccer is really the one place they have a chance to play competitive soccer in their late teens, early 20s.  
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Not to go too far down the rabbit hole, but our college rosters aren't 1/4-1/5 European players coming here to play inferior soccer because the European education opportunities are so awesome.

 
The Z Machine said:
Ok, point taken.  I have no problem with colleges doing intramurals or even friendly games between schools.  But they shouldn't pay students to engage in those activities, which are really all about promoting their brand.
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Oh, get out of here with this nonsense.

I had two years of college paid for because of my soccer scholarship. If not for this scholarship I would not have attended college. I can promise you my life would have been a ton harder without that opportunity. 

 
ChiefD said:
I had two years of college paid for because of my soccer scholarship. If not for this scholarship I would not have attended college. I can promise you my life would have been a ton harder without that opportunity. 
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I had a similar experience.

My college admin person told me I would never have gotten into the school with out soccer (no scholarship as it was D3 but it got me into a great engineering program which set me on a nice course in life).

Playing college ball turned me into a life long fan of the sport.

 
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encaitar said:
This is a crazy discussion, but the reality is it's missing a big piece.  One of the reason there aren't sports scholarships in much of Europe is because in much of Europe University is free.  This discussion really starts to get political if you really delve into it.

Aside from that, we just watched a semi-pro team in England face an EPL team.  That is never going to happen in the US in our lifetimes.  Kids not good enough to play for top teams in England can still get their soccer fix with club and semi-pro teams(and even make a small check for it).  Hell, they can play until they're 40 on those teams.  We don't have that opportunity for most of our youth and so college soccer is really the one place they have a chance to play competitive soccer in their late teens, early 20s.  
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I played semi-pro after college. Paid for gas and beer, more with bonuses for scoring and good games. There were levels above that too...all before MLS was born. I would bet those leagues still exist.

Not only that, they all play in the US Open cup which, like FA cup, is joined by MLS teams partway through.

There are a lot of opportunities out there for people to keep playing.

I think college is the one place a kid will get the opportunity to get help getting in or with scholarship money...that's the advantage of the sport there imo- not necessarily an only shot at playing quality ball.

 
Look guys, I was in a bad mood today, pretty much all day since this morning.  I didn't mean to be a ########.

I have strong opinions about the NCAA and the sham of "student-athletes".  I also detest the exorbitant university costs in the USA (and my kids are in 2nd grade).  I'm glad you guys had awesome experiences playing college ball.  I'm glad some of you got a chance to get into a school because of your soccer skillz.  Lots kids need lots of different opportunities for success.

I am happy that the USA is producing some excellent talent right now.  I am happy that those super-elite-upper-tier kids are getting chances that no other generation has gotten.  The future is bright.  Let's celebrate the vision of USMNT being world-class some day and not get caught in stupid hot takes. 

 
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The Z Machine said:
Look guys, I was in a bad mood today, pretty much all day since this morning.  I didn't mean to be a ########.

I have strong opinions about the NCAA and the sham of "student-athletes".  I also detest the exorbitant university costs in the USA (and my kids are in 2nd grade).  I'm glad you guys had awesome experiences playing college ball.  I'm glad some of you got a chance to get into a school because of your soccer skillz.  Lots kids need lots of different opportunities for success.

I am happy that the USA is producing some excellent talent right now.  I am happy that those super-elite-upper-tier kids are getting chances that no other generation has gotten.  The future is bright.  Let's celebrate the vision of USMNT being world-class some day and not get caught in stupid hot takes. 
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Why do you hate America?  😉

 
ChiefD said:
Oh, get out of here with this nonsense.

I had two years of college paid for because of my soccer scholarship. If not for this scholarship I would not have attended college. I can promise you my life would have been a ton harder without that opportunity. 
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I guess I'll break it to you now since so much time has passed.  The reason you got the scholarship was because you were the only kid in the region with a set of post hole diggers and they needed to install a new goal post at the field.

 
We have no idea what the make up of the team will be because of the release policy but we are getting close to real games...

Obviously this is a super hard group with the tournament being in Mexico. Goal would be to come in second in group and get to the semi finals.

=========

Jeff Carlisle

@JeffreyCarlisle

#Concacaf announces that Olympic qualifying tournament will take place March 18-30 in Guadalajara, Mexico. The US U-23s are in a group with Mexico, Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic. The winners of the two semifinals will qualify for #Tokyo2020

 
The first game could determine the US's fate as the US plays Costa Rica in the opener. 

A win here and they should advance as the second game should be a much easier one against Dominican Republic hopefully resulting in the game against Mexico being meaningless.

Mexico has an advantage here beyond home field.  Their good young players are much more likely to be released than the US's of Pulisic, Dest, Weston, Adams, Reyna, Sargent etc.

 
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NewlyRetired said:
We have no idea what the make up of the team will be because of the release policy but we are getting close to real games...

Obviously this is a super hard group with the tournament being in Mexico. Goal would be to come in second in group and get to the semi finals.

=========

Jeff Carlisle

@JeffreyCarlisle

#Concacaf announces that Olympic qualifying tournament will take place March 18-30 in Guadalajara, Mexico. The US U-23s are in a group with Mexico, Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic. The winners of the two semifinals will qualify for #Tokyo2020
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Strange group, with the top 3 men's teams all together. So 2nd place puts them in Semis, where they'd need to win to advance to finals and qualify for the Olympics? Only two teams make it?

 
I posted in the match day thread yesterday that Dest didn't play a minute in the cops semi. 

Was he being rested, or benched? 

 
El Floppo said:
Or is that group of four the final four? 

I'm reading it like there's another group of four out there...
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I thought two groups with two advancing from each group.  1st plays 2nd in other group, 2nd plays 1st in the other group.  Winners go to the Olympics and advance to a final game.

 
Serbia announced their roster for the US friendly and the US has not even announced the friendly yet (in Orlando on Jan. 31 according to Serbia).

 
This guy is one of the top insiders for Juve news.  No shock this news but good to hear no matter what

==========

Max Statman

@eMaxStatman

JUST IN : Juve will sign Weston McKennie from Schalke 04 permanently, confirmed

 
Dual nat Akinola is out of the Canadian camp due to medical issues.  That means he won't play against the US in the upcoming friendly.

 
Initially I felt I would have rather have Morris play in the Bundesliga where he has had offers but Swansea offers an interesting situation.  Being part of a promotion chase in the Championship (Swansea is second right now) is a big deal and they will have a ton of high pressure games in the second half of the season.

 
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NewlyRetired said:
USMNT Only

@usmntonly

REPORT: "Tottenham have accepted Bournemouth's bid for centre-back Cameron Carter-Vickers, per Football Insider."
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That's pretty amazing.  He just made his first appearance for Bournemouth on loan since he was injured coming into the season.  The fact that they want him based off of practice and one showing seems to speak well for his chances at Bournemouth.

 
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