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Malaysian plane shot down in Ukraine.


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I know nothing about flight paths...but why would a commerical airliner be flying over a war zone? You'd think they'd avoid that general area...

I never understood this, but they do it. I remember when I went to Dubai, we flew over Iraq. Seemed like an odd thing to do.

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if this was an act of aggression meant by Russia towards Ukraine, do we have an obligation as a NATO member to retaliate?

Is Ukraine a NATO member?

They are not, but the flight originated in Amsterdam and will likely have had many different nationalities on board (including Americans, most likely).

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EU was already pretty pissed at Russia for alot of reasons. Now you have a passenger jet loaded with EU residents get shot down in the middle of the hot zone.

Yeah, I'm thinking we are going to see an escalation here.

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I know nothing about flight paths...but why would a commerical airliner be flying over a war zone? You'd think they'd avoid that general area...

Basically airliners fly so high that they can only be shot down by "strategic" AA systems, ie. those designed to take out high altitude fighters and bombers. This isn't a hick with a shoulder fired missile, it was a mobile vehicle firing a radar guided big ### missile.

I agree with shader..of course they have means to shoot down a commercial airliner so why fly over an area like that. He didn't say it was some hick with a shoulder fired missile.

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I know nothing about flight paths...but why would a commerical airliner be flying over a war zone? You'd think they'd avoid that general area...

Basically airliners fly so high that they can only be shot down by "strategic" AA systems, ie. those designed to take out high altitude fighters and bombers. This isn't a hick with a shoulder fired missile, it was a mobile vehicle firing a radar guided big ### missile.

I agree with shader..of course they have means to shoot down a commercial airliner so why fly over an area like that. He didn't say it was some hick with a shoulder fired missile.

... but that's the thing. Unless Russia gave them the weapons system, they shouldn't have had the ability to shoot down a commercial airliner. The air corridor was being policed under the same rules that you would use for Afghanistan or Iraq (though maybe not Iraq now that ISIS has seized a lot of military equipment). Was that clearly a mistake? Yeah, obviously. But hindsight is 20/20.

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I know nothing about flight paths...but why would a commerical airliner be flying over a war zone? You'd think they'd avoid that general area...

Basically airliners fly so high that they can only be shot down by "strategic" AA systems, ie. those designed to take out high altitude fighters and bombers. This isn't a hick with a shoulder fired missile, it was a mobile vehicle firing a radar guided big ### missile.

I agree with shader..of course they have means to shoot down a commercial airliner so why fly over an area like that. He didn't say it was some hick with a shoulder fired missile.

I saw a tweet that the FAA has told American-based airlines not to fly over Ukraine. Not sure if this is true or not, but my early thoughts are that this in fact a big mistake, which is why I wouldn't want to fly in a plane that went over an active warzone.

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I know nothing about flight paths...but why would a commerical airliner be flying over a war zone? You'd think they'd avoid that general area...

Basically airliners fly so high that they can only be shot down by "strategic" AA systems, ie. those designed to take out high altitude fighters and bombers. This isn't a hick with a shoulder fired missile, it was a mobile vehicle firing a radar guided big ### missile.

I agree with shader..of course they have means to shoot down a commercial airliner so why fly over an area like that. He didn't say it was some hick with a shoulder fired missile.

Apparently the plane was flying at 33,000 feet. I can't imagine what it would take to hit a plane like that, but my guess is that between the size of the area and the range of the missile, it might be a large area that would have to be circumvented.

I have no idea, but I wouldn't necessarily think this was the only commercial plane traversing this airspace.

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How do they already know it is from Russia? This reminds me of the chemical weapons issue in Syria. The US immediately knew that it was Syria who was using the weapons, when we really had no idea. I'm skeptical whenever i hear any kind od narrative that comes out so quickly after the actual event. Also, who is to say this isn't a staged event to make it look like the pro-Russian group?

This is surely to ramp up this situation. No more sitting back and waiting on sanctions.

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I know nothing about flight paths...but why would a commerical airliner be flying over a war zone? You'd think they'd avoid that general area...

Basically airliners fly so high that they can only be shot down by "strategic" AA systems, ie. those designed to take out high altitude fighters and bombers. This isn't a hick with a shoulder fired missile, it was a mobile vehicle firing a radar guided big ### missile.

I wonder if there are rogue elements in the Russian military.

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How do they already know it is from Russia? This reminds me of the chemical weapons issue in Syria. The US immediately knew that it was Syria who was using the weapons, when we really had no idea. I'm skeptical whenever i hear any kind od narrative that comes out so quickly after the actual event. Also, who is to say this isn't a staged event to make it look like the pro-Russian group?

This is surely to ramp up this situation. No more sitting back and waiting on sanctions.

I don't think anyone knows for sure. And I haven't really seen any news agency come out and say it was Russia. In fact, most have backed off of the "shot down" headline 10 or so minutes after they put them up.

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How do they already know it is from Russia? This reminds me of the chemical weapons issue in Syria. The US immediately knew that it was Syria who was using the weapons, when we really had no idea. I'm skeptical whenever i hear any kind od narrative that comes out so quickly after the actual event. Also, who is to say this isn't a staged event to make it look like the pro-Russian group?

This is surely to ramp up this situation. No more sitting back and waiting on sanctions.

I don't think anyone knows for sure. And I haven't really seen any news agency come out and say it was Russia. In fact, most have backed off of the "shot down" headline 10 or so minutes after they put them up.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

CNN now is going with the "terrorists" angle, which is coming from the Ukraine interior ministry adviser.

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The odd thing, though, is that the Pro-Russia forces are saying that it was shot down by the Ukrainians. While the Ukrainians are saying it was Pro-Russia forces that shot it down.

The takeaway on this is that both groups are claiming it was shot down. Makes me believe that there's a good chance it was.

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How do they already know it is from Russia? This reminds me of the chemical weapons issue in Syria. The US immediately knew that it was Syria who was using the weapons, when we really had no idea. I'm skeptical whenever i hear any kind od narrative that comes out so quickly after the actual event. Also, who is to say this isn't a staged event to make it look like the pro-Russian group?

This is surely to ramp up this situation. No more sitting back and waiting on sanctions.

Our press corps these days is willing to buy any story hook, line and sinker, as long as they think they have a "scoop"

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EU was already pretty pissed at Russia for alot of reasons. Now you have a passenger jet loaded with EU residents get shot down in the middle of the hot zone.

Yeah, I'm thinking we are going to see an escalation here.

A bunch of saber rattling, then nothing.

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How do they already know it is from Russia? This reminds me of the chemical weapons issue in Syria. The US immediately knew that it was Syria who was using the weapons, when we really had no idea. I'm skeptical whenever i hear any kind od narrative that comes out so quickly after the actual event. Also, who is to say this isn't a staged event to make it look like the pro-Russian group?

This is surely to ramp up this situation. No more sitting back and waiting on sanctions.

Obviously they don't, but it would be much more likely to be the separatists that committed the act rather than a 'false flag' (thanks Breitbart, for making that a phrase I can't go a week without hearing) from the Ukrainians. No doubt the US and other NATO countries have the region under satellite surveillance constantly due to the conflict. If a strategic AA system like a BUK was used, the missiles fired would be identifiable in satellite imagery due to the ultra-violet plumes emitted from firing such a large missile. If it was clearly fired from behind Ukrainian lines, that will be readily evident. At this point, it looks like a major ####-up by the rebels who thought they were shooting down a military transport plane, which they already did earlier this week (and the US and Russia both have a history of making similar mistakes).

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How do they already know it is from Russia? This reminds me of the chemical weapons issue in Syria. The US immediately knew that it was Syria who was using the weapons, when we really had no idea. I'm skeptical whenever i hear any kind od narrative that comes out so quickly after the actual event. Also, who is to say this isn't a staged event to make it look like the pro-Russian group?

This is surely to ramp up this situation. No more sitting back and waiting on sanctions.

Our press corps these days is willing to buy any story hook, line and sinker, as long as they think they have a "scoop"

It's a business. Not only do you want to keep your viewers, you want them to view you and not your competition.

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Aleksandr Borodai, the leader of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic, has publicly denied rebel involvement in the crash, Alec Luhn reports.

Borodai tweeted (Russian) that the rebels were not involved in the attack. "According to initial information, the plane was shot down by Ukrainian air defence. The rebels don't have weapons with which they could shoot down a plane at 10,000 metres"

But the Donetsk People's Republic said in June its forces had captured Buk missiles from a Ukrainian military base, Itar-Tass news agency reported. The Buk missile has a range of 18,000 metres, according to some accounts.

The Guardian is doing a good job keeping the info updated if anyone is interested.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live

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The odd thing, though, is that the Pro-Russia forces are saying that it was shot down by the Ukrainians. While the Ukrainians are saying it was Pro-Russia forces that shot it down.

The takeaway on this is that both groups are claiming it was shot down. Makes me believe that there's a good chance it was.

Agreed. The finger pointing reminds me a lot of the sniper attacks that were committed during the initial protests. Reports of both sides being shot by the same men on top of buildings, seemed to be professionally done (ie. few shots per target, accurate fire, left quickly). Don't like making radical accusations, but I still believe Russia was behind those sniper attacks (they benefitted the most from destabilizing Ukraine, in that they were able to annex Crimea). Makes me truly question whether Russia could be behind this shoot down, but I'm not yet sure why they would do it unless they believe that the result could be annexing eastern Ukraine now.

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It sounds terrible, but this probably helps Ukraine. The amount of heat on Russia just increased significantly.

Russia already denied it, from what I can tell. Russia is a major country. They aren't just going to go shoot down a passenger plane. Half the world would declare war on them.

:lmao:

1983, kiddo

I was in fact a kid in 1983. At the moment, I meant that they weren't going to shoot down a passenger plane on purpose in 2014. It's very possible that they may have accidentally done it, though.

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It sounds terrible, but this probably helps Ukraine. The amount of heat on Russia just increased significantly.

Russia already denied it, from what I can tell. Russia is a major country. They aren't just going to go shoot down a passenger plane. Half the world would declare war on them.

:lmao:

1983, kiddo

I was in fact a kid in 1983. At the moment, I meant that they weren't going to shoot down a passenger plane on purpose in 2014. It's very possible that they may have accidentally done it, though.

Also, if Russia did in fact shoot down this plane, they can deny, deny, deny and say it was the rebels. It'd be hard to definitively prove otherwise, given that the rebels are already known to cross the border relatively freely and the use the same weapons systems as the Russian army.

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Odds are it was the rebel faction accidently shooting down an airliner using a system supplied by the Russians, as they are supporting the rebel faction. The fact the system was likely provided by the Russians (it will be easy enough to determine once spy agencies begin supplying radar signatures intercepted during the act) will make it hit the fan pretty quickly.

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From the Guardian live feed:

"We would often avoid areas where there is air-to-air conflict, but we flew over Iraq and Afghanistan when the British and US armed forces were delpoyed there, because only one side was using military jets."

Explaining why airlines fly over conflict zones where groups might be in possession of ground-to-air missiles, the pilot said: "There will be weapons based on the ground when you are at 30,000 feet, but that is far up in the air. There are not many missile systems that can be so accurate."

Combined with the fact that the FAA previously warned american carriers not to fly over the region might imply that the US knew the rebels had these high altitude AA systems.

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Odds are it was the rebel faction accidently shooting down an airliner using a system supplied by the Russians, as they are supporting the rebel faction. The fact the system was likely provided by the Russians (it will be easy enough to determine once spy agencies begin supplying radar signatures intercepted during the act) will make it hit the fan pretty quickly.

With all the surveillance(sat. etc) in area we must know what happened
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So what's up with Russia shooting down a Ukraine military aircraft earlier? This seems like huge news that I didn't hear about until after this plane went down.

Seems like firing on another nation's air force while they are in their own country's airspace would be pretty big news.

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From the Guardian live feed:

"We would often avoid areas where there is air-to-air conflict, but we flew over Iraq and Afghanistan when the British and US armed forces were delpoyed there, because only one side was using military jets."

Explaining why airlines fly over conflict zones where groups might be in possession of ground-to-air missiles, the pilot said: "There will be weapons based on the ground when you are at 30,000 feet, but that is far up in the air. There are not many missile systems that can be so accurate."

Combined with the fact that the FAA previously warned american carriers not to fly over the region might imply that the US knew the rebels had these high altitude AA systems.

The rebels said they took some BUK's in Ukraine in June so I think that is almost a lock they had them.

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