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timschochet

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

What specifically are you suggesting the Democrats should do? 

I've got some thoughts and can certainly share them. But I'm the American public.The Dem leaders work for me.  So I'd flip it right back and ask, what are your thoughts on how you might do your job better since I'm clearly telling you I don't agree with the current approach?

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4 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

I've got some thoughts and can certainly share them. But I'm the American public.The Dem leaders work for me.  So I'd flip it right back and ask, what are your thoughts on how you might do your job better since I'm clearly telling you I don't agree with the current approach?

Are you the American Public - or one view from the American Public?

Can anyone ever represent every view of the American Public?

My view is the Dems are doing the right thing here.

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4 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

I understand what you're saying, but the framing of questions affects polling results, bigly. If the question had framed it positively, like say for example "do you approve of how the Democrats are handling Trump's request for funding a border wall?" I guarantee they would have done big positive numbers, even though that's effectively the same question as they one where they majority gave a negative response.

 

Okay then. If we can't have a starting point of acknowledging the results of a poll used by NPR then I guess there's really not a lot to discuss. 

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18 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

I respect the thoughtful response but IMO this is pure denial.

If my employer says they disagree with the way I'm doing my job...I'm doing some self-reflecting on how to do it better...not doubling down on what's causing my employer to be upset in the first place.

BTW, I'm calling out the Democrats only because I think they have a real oppty to become the party of responsible government in this situation. Huge oppty.

Opposing Trump and McConnell trying to blackmail the House and Senate is responsible government.   

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1 minute ago, Sinn Fein said:

Are you the American Public - or one view from the American Public?

Can anyone ever represent every view of the American Public?

My view is the Dems are doing the right thing here.

That's your view. So that puts you in the minority of the American public according to the poll.

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7 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

I've got some thoughts and can certainly share them. But I'm the American public.The Dem leaders work for me.  So I'd flip it right back and ask, what are your thoughts on how you might do your job better since I'm clearly telling you I don't agree with the current approach?

Since I believe the Democrats are currently doing the right thing, and since apparently this is what the majority of Americans believe, I don’t know how to answer you. You’re the one that seems to insist the Democrats do something else. Please tell us what exactly that is. 

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26 minutes ago, Don Quixote said:

Sick burn, dude.  

Toluse Olorunnipa
@ToluseO

Trump just spoke at a meeting of conservatives in the Cabinet Room. He:

-lamented over cancellation of SOTU by "Nancy Pelosi, or, Nancy as I call her"
-said Democrats have become "dangerous" party
-called Schumer a "puppet" of Pelosi
-threatened to cut off aid to Central America 

Trump's been threatening to cut off aid to Central America since September.   

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Just now, -fish- said:

Opposing Trump and McConnell trying to blackmail the House and Senate is responsible government.   

The majority of the American public is telling you otherwise. You're not listening. Responsible government starts with listening to your constituency.

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Since I believe the Democrats are currently doing the right thing, and since apparently this is what the majority of Americans believe, I don’t know how to answer you. You’re the one that seems to insist the Democrats do something else. Please tell us what exactly that is. 

Let's start here. The Pew poll is clearly saying otherwise. Can we not agree on that?

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Just now, psychobillies said:

Not that you asked me, but I'd suggest they stop pretending that they think a wall is immoral and cough up the 5B in order to get DACA concessions and reopen government. 

that DACA "concession" was a joke...it's like the tax cuts...

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Just now, PhantomJB said:

The majority of the American public is telling you otherwise. You're not listening. Responsible government starts with listening to your constituency.

The majority of the American people gave the House to the Democrats to stop Trump's agenda.   The majority of the American people blame Trump for the shutdown.   Personally, I've written to all of my representatives demanding that they not cave in to Trump and McConnell.   

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Just now, psychobillies said:

Not that you asked me, but I'd suggest they stop pretending that they think a wall is immoral and cough up the 5B in order to get DACA concessions and reopen government. 

First off they’re not pretending. Second if they ask for a permanent deal on DACA, Trump will refuse. 

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19 minutes ago, Banger said:

yet he'll claim he's WINNING...

 

Kyle Griffin‏Verified account @kylegriffin1

New: The shutdown has dragged Trump's approval to its lowest level in more than a year. AP-NORC finds Trump's approval at 34%, down 8-points from December. Trump's standing with independents is among its lowest points of his presidency.

Very odd.  The strategy from Trump was weird to begin with, but now he's doubling down and he seems to have many republicans on his side.  At this point if his approval rating is at 34%, his odds of winning the election are basically nil.  I don't know what he could possibly do to come back.  But from his perspective I guess he believes it all starts with his base and building the wall.

This is just insane and the crazy thing is that neither side even seems remotely ready to back down.  

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2 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

Let's start here. The Pew poll is clearly saying otherwise. Can we not agree on that?

This Pew poll?

Quote

About six-in-ten Americans (61%) disapprove of President Donald Trump’s handling of negotiations over the shutdown. An almost equal share (60%) disapproves of Republican congressional leaders on this score, and 53% disapprove of how Democratic leaders in Congress are performing. Other recent polls have asked who Americans believe is most responsible for the shutdown, finding that Trump and congressional Republicans bear more responsibility than the Democrats.

 

Edited by -fish-
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1 minute ago, PhantomJB said:

Let's start here. The Pew poll is clearly saying otherwise. Can we not agree on that?

No let’s not. I’m not convinced about that poll. Let’s put it aside. What do YOU want the Democrats to do, exactly? This is the 3rd time I’ve asked you the exact same question. 

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Just now, PhantomJB said:

The majority of the American public is telling you otherwise. You're not listening. Responsible government starts with listening to your constituency.

What exactly, are the voices in your head telling you the dems should do here?

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Just now, shader said:

Very odd.  The strategy from Trump was weird to begin with, but now he's doubling down and he seems to have many republicans on his side.  At this point if his approval rating is at 34%, his odds of winning the election are basically nil.  I don't know what he could possibly do to come back.  But from his perspective I guess he believes it all starts with his base and building the wall.

This is just insane and the crazy thing is that neither side even seems remotely ready to back down.  

If the Democrats cave and Trump gets his wall, his approval will go to 50% in Rasmussen polls.

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1 minute ago, PhantomJB said:

That's your view. So that puts you in the minority of the American public according to the poll.

Here are some other polls:

Quote

The Politico/Morning Consult poll finds that a majority of voters — 54 percent — blame Trump and congressional Republicans for the shutdown, compared to 35 percent who blame Democrats.

Quote

Seven in 10 Americans don't think the issue of a border wall is worth a government shutdown, which they say is now having a negative impact on the country.

This second poll perfectly illustrates the importance of phrasing in polling like this, as some people have taken positions that are logically impossible. 66% want Trump to agree to open the government without wall funding while only 31% say he should refuse.  Meanwhile 52% want the Dems to agree to a budget with wall funding while 43% say they should refuse. By definition only one of these things can happen, yet majorities are calling for both of them to happen.  Why? Phrasing. If you give people a chance to call for the action they want (in this case ending the shutdown), some people will always take it no matter how inconsistent their positions may be.

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3 minutes ago, psychobillies said:

Not that you asked me, but I'd suggest they stop pretending that they think a wall is immoral and cough up the 5B in order to get DACA concessions and reopen government. 

It could be done.  It would be a huge political loss for the dems tho..  Obviously the dems don't think the wall is immoral, anyone saying that is just playing games.  Because I mean....there already is a wall.  So additional funding for something that is already there should not be this big of a deal for either side. 

But it has, and it feels like both sides are digging in and refusing to back down.  I think it will take a coordinated strike among IRS/TSA workers to really cause change.  Someone has to make the government feel it because they obviously don't care about all the money people have lost.

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3 minutes ago, -fish- said:

If the Democrats cave and Trump gets his wall, his approval will go to 50% in Rasmussen polls.

I have no idea what his approval rating will or won't be.  But if you were right, then that's why there is a shutdown.  If his approval rating is based on increased funding for a portion of a wall, that's just sad.  But if it is, then there's no way he will back down if he stands a chance of gaining so much ground.  And if they are faced with the outside possibility of 6 more years of Trump, I don't see how the dems will back down either.

The relationship between the R and the L is as toxic as I've ever seen it in my life, and this just may be the point where that toxic relationship causes significant damage that can't be repaired.

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Just now, shader said:

Very odd.  The strategy from Trump was weird to begin with, but now he's doubling down and he seems to have many republicans on his side.  At this point if his approval rating is at 34%, his odds of winning the election are basically nil.  I don't know what he could possibly do to come back.  But from his perspective I guess he believes it all starts with his base and building the wall.

This is just insane and the crazy thing is that neither side even seems remotely ready to back down.  

closing the gov't as a negotiating ploy and hurting Americans is just an awful stunt....he overplayed his hand and thought Nancy would be soft and cave...he's wrong, he's stuck and he has no compassion for the American's he is responsible for and he really doesn't care at all about them or their situations.  It's about him and "winning" as it always is.  It's up to the Republicans to take the football from him as they know this is wrong but they are gutless.  

I think you're mistaken that there's a strategy....he was ready to sign the original CR but the shadow admin of Coulter/Limbaugh yelled at him and he cowered...now he's stuck with no plan.  The "master negotiation" is a deer in headlights that yells the same thing everyday.  This isn't going to change for the better...his numbers are going down, down, down...he's not making any new arguments...everyone has heard them and they are disagreeing with him overwhelmingly.  

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5 hours ago, BobbyLayne said:

Trump is getting crushed

Painted himself into a corner and has no idea how to extract himself.

Total incompetence - simply has no desire for governance, it's all some stupid game for him.

Creates a crisis at the border by shutting down/drastically reducing legitimate processing sites

Has Republican House and Senate for two years

States on national television "I am happy to own the shutdown"

Shuts down government while still having Republican House and Senate

Blames Democrats

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1 minute ago, Banger said:

that DACA "concession" was a joke...it's like the tax cuts...

Well, that's where they need to actually negotiate.  

 

1 minute ago, timschochet said:

First off they’re not pretending. Second if they ask for a permanent deal on DACA, Trump will refuse. 

Of course they are.  There are huge sections of fences, walls, border checkpoints at different places along the border.  If a wall is immoral, then logically all of those things are also immoral.  Please show me where they have advocated removing those barriers in the past.  Or show me where someone in here has advocated removing them.  You're for open borders, right? Do you think we should remove any and all security from the border?

This is nothing more than a 2020 political move by both parties.  The fact that you guys are cheering on Pelosi's Trump like behavior now is just bizarre.

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Just now, shader said:

I have no idea what his approval rating will or won't be.  But if you were right, then that's why there is a shutdown.  If his approval rating is based on increased funding for a portion of a wall, that's just sad.  But if it is, then there's no way he will back down if he stands a chance of gaining so much ground.  And if they are faced with the outside possibility of 6 more years of Trump, I don't see how the dems will back down either.

The relationship between the R and the L is as toxic as I've ever seen it in my life, and this just may be the point where that toxic relationship causes significant damage that can't be repaired.

Exactly.

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Just now, psychobillies said:

Well, that's where they need to actually negotiate.  

they've tried that numerous times and Trump has flipped every time.  He agrees goes back to WH, Miller gets in his ear and it's blown up.  You can't negotiate with him...there's no plan...$5 bill isn't even a down payment on what he says he wants...where is this border wall going to be built?  what materials? there's nothing...this is a pissing contest that was created SOLELY because Limbaugh and Coulter called Trump out and called him weak.

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Just now, Banger said:

they've tried that numerous times and Trump has flipped every time.  He agrees goes back to WH, Miller gets in his ear and it's blown up.  You can't negotiate with him...there's no plan...$5 bill isn't even a down payment on what he says he wants...where is this border wall going to be built?  what materials? there's nothing...this is a pissing contest that was created SOLELY because Limbaugh and Coulter called Trump out and called him weak.

5 B is a win for him regardless of how far it goes.  I think he'd go pretty far to get it.  

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11 minutes ago, psychobillies said:

Not that you asked me, but I'd suggest they stop pretending that they think a wall is immoral and cough up the 5B in order to get DACA concessions and reopen government. 

If Trump offered a permanent legislative DACA fix and nothing else he might get a deal, although he'd have very little leverage on that since DREAMers are already protected by court order until at least the next Supreme Court session, at which time we'll be closing in on the 2020 elections anyway. But it doesn't matter because the White Nationalists who comprise a decent part of his base and his White House would allow for a clean offer like that.

Also they do think a wall is immoral. Or at least I do, and I'm pretty sure many of them genuinely agree. Fencing over some segments of the border is way different from a wall that covers the entire border, both practically and ethically.

 

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10 minutes ago, shader said:

I have no idea what his approval rating will or won't be.  But if you were right, then that's why there is a shutdown.  If his approval rating is based on increased funding for a portion of a wall, that's just sad.  But if it is, then there's no way he will back down if he stands a chance of gaining so much ground.  And if they are faced with the outside possibility of 6 more years of Trump, I don't see how the dems will back down either.

The relationship between the R and the L is as toxic as I've ever seen it in my life, and this just may be the point where that toxic relationship causes significant damage that can't be repaired. 

This may have fallen along R and L lines, but really it should be about whether shutting down the government is an appropriate tactic for bargaining on an unrelated matter.  NO American should be OK with that, regardless of their political leanings. If the Dems had try to do this in 2011 to get something they hadn't been able to obtain through the normal legislative process when they controlled the government I absolutely positively would have been calling for their heads.  Any conservative who isn't doing the same with the GOP right now is part of the problem IMO and needs to take a long look in the mirror. Maybe ask how you'd react to the 2011 hypo and ask yourself why you're not having the same reaction now.

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1 minute ago, TobiasFunke said:

If Trump offered a permanent legislative DACA fix and nothing else he might get a deal, although he'd have very little leverage on that since DREAMers are already protected by court order until at least the next Supreme Court session, at which time we'll be closing in on the 2020 elections anyway. But it doesn't matter because the White Nationalists who comprise a decent part of his base and his White House would allow for a clean offer like that.

Also they do think a wall is immoral. Or at least I do, and I'm pretty sure many of them genuinely agree. Fencing over some segments of the border is way different from a wall that covers the entire border, both practically and ethically.

 

Right now his base wants a win on the wall.  Just like the Dems want a win on DACA.  It's just a suggestion.  Something has to give here.

I don't follow your logic on the morality of the wall.  Either keeping people out is good or it's bad.  A portion of a wall keeps people out.  A bigger wall keeps more people out.  

I get the idea that it's impractical, but its either immoral to have barriers or it isn't.

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1 minute ago, PhantomJB said:

Bullying tactics. Sound like someone familiar?

People in this thread really do need to look at themselves in the mirror.

Asking someone to answer a basic, obvious question raised by their own posts is not "bullying." And wondering aloud if someone is "not entirely on the up-and-up" is not "sophomoric humor and insults."

I agree that some people here need to look at themselves in the mirror, though.

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47 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

I respect the thoughtful response but IMO this is pure denial.

If my employer says they disagree with the way I'm doing my job...I'm doing some self-reflecting on how to do it better...not doubling down on what's causing my employer to be upset in the first place.

If your employer says they disagree with the way you're doing your job, the first thing you're going to do is ask for more information.

There is NO WAY that you honestly believe that you would simply respond with, "Okay, I think I'm going to go do some self-reflecting now, without asking for any input or clarification about what you meant by 'I disagree with the way you're doing your job.'"

(Also, what if your employer's primary issue is the fact that you never ask follow-up questions and spend too much time in self-reflection?)

 

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2 minutes ago, psychobillies said:

Right now his base wants a win on the wall.  Just like the Dems want a win on DACA.  It's just a suggestion.  Something has to give here.

I don't follow your logic on the morality of the wall.  Either keeping people out is good or it's bad.  A portion of a wall keeps people out.  A bigger wall keeps more people out.  

I get the idea that it's impractical, but its either immoral to have barriers or it isn't.

one side wants to shut down the government over what they want.  the other doesn't.

if there was a proposal to open the government at the same level of funding that was there before the shutdown, one side would oppose, the other side wouldn't.

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16 minutes ago, psychobillies said:

Well, that's where they need to actually negotiate.  

 

Of course they are.  There are huge sections of fences, walls, border checkpoints at different places along the border.  If a wall is immoral, then logically all of those things are also immoral.  Please show me where they have advocated removing those barriers in the past.  Or show me where someone in here has advocated removing them.  You're for open borders, right? Do you think we should remove any and all security from the border?

This is nothing more than a 2020 political move by both parties.  The fact that you guys are cheering on Pelosi's Trump like behavior now is just bizarre.

1. As I wrote, they are not pretending. Democrats are for fencing, in certain areas as needed. But they regard the idea of a wall across our southern border, which Trump pushed for in his campaign and continues at times to insist upon, as both stupid and immoral. It is both.

2. I am not for open borders. I am for open immigration, except for felons, people with contagious diseases, and terrorists. Open immigration and open borders are two entirely different ideas.

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1 minute ago, psychobillies said:

Right now his base wants a win on the wall.  Just like the Dems want a win on DACA.  It's just a suggestion.  Something has to give here.

I don't follow your logic on the morality of the wall.  Either keeping people out is good or it's bad.  A portion of a wall keeps people out.  A bigger wall keeps more people out.  

I get the idea that it's impractical, but its either immoral to have barriers or it isn't.

The obvious thing that should give is people like you (assuming you're a right-leaning independent thinker, that's the impression I've gotten from you) making your lack of support for his hostage-taking tactics known. If he and his GOP allies realize that they're taking a political hit from the people they'll need backing from in 2020 and 2022 they might finally let the hostages go and have a good faith negotiation.

We all have the power to help end this, if we make our feelings known to the people who depend on our support for their livelihood. Except me I guess, since I don't have elected representation in congress :)

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1 hour ago, sho nuff said:

You mean like legislation that passes the house?  

Maybe it’s because we have a very ineffective senate majority leader?

No.  It’s because we have a highly disfunctional partisan government for the last 10 years imho.  

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