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Undocumented Immigrant Thread (5 Viewers)

Mario Kart said:
If I'm Schumer/Pelosi, tomorrow morning I put one piece of paper on the table before Trump says a word. On that paper is a short list:

- $2.5 billion for border security with extensions of a fence in needed areas.

- DACA with a path to citizenship for each.

- Puerto Rico aid.

- Restore Glass Steegall support

- Support higher education for all.

- Support Medicare for all.
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I would throw in mueller protections just to see him blow a gasket.

 
BobbyLayne said:
NYT reporting he said at lunchtime he didn’t think this (& the border trip) would make any difference.

Just wasting everybody’s time...
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he looked like it with his "enthusiasm"....he's not a teleprompter guy...what's with his breathing?

 
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So wouldn't drug treatment stop a lot of these drug deaths?  

Didn't he put like a 24 year old kid in charge of that or something a while back? 

 
jamny said:
It's crazy how this whole thing hinges on one word...wall
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Not sure why it's crazy.  Putting up fences where the topography allows is a mostly useless but fairly cheap method of patrolling the border. Some Dems supported the idea 12 years ago, back when border crossings were a much bigger problem and before there were drones and other technology that could do a much better job with border security.

Spending $22 billion (or even worse, flushing $6 billion down the toilet in the utterly irrational hope that you'll somehow get the necessary $16 billion later) is pursuit of a mostly useless wall across the entire southern border that will never ever get built and which would stand as a horrific symbol of US isolationism and intolerance even if it did?  That's a completely different matter.

 
Once Chuck became reanimated from his stroke, I thought he did a good job and said what needed to be said.

We can open the government up and figure out border security at the same time. Democrats AND Republicans have already agreed on a resolution that re-opens the government. They came off as the reasonable adults talking to a petulant child.

Trump has really painted himself into a corner.

 
Banger said:
he looked like it with his "enthusiasm"....he's not a teleprompter guy...what's with his breathing?
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Missed it & only heard the audio while on the train ride home. Not being snarky when I say he seemed low energy. Like almost felt sorry for him - he’s boxed in by a mnemonic tool, an archaic, ineffective idea I don’t think he even believes in, but he promised it 100s of times. Dems have no interest in pulling him out of this hole he dug for himself.

 
timschochet said:
Conservatives remain solidly behind President Trump. Here is a Marc Thiessen op-Ed piece from the Washington Post calling Trump “the adult in the room”: 

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/opinions-trump-won-the-night-schumer-and-pelosi-lost/ar-BBRZLKt

Mark Levin said last night that Trump was “brilliant” and called Pelosi and Schumer “pathological liars”. 
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It’s bad that some just can’t accept actual facts and continue to believe trumps lies and he and those like Levin are so slanted that they spend so much time trying to convince others that the truth is not truth.

 
BobbyLayne said:
Missed it & only heard the audio while on the train ride home. Not being snarky when I say he seemed low energy. Like almost felt sorry for him - he’s boxed in by a mnemonic tool, an archaic, ineffective idea I don’t think he even believes in, but he promised it 100s of times. Dems have no interest in pulling him out of this hole he dug for himself.
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nor should they...it's a waste of money.  

 
timschochet said:
Conservatives remain solidly behind President Trump. Here is a Marc Thiessen op-Ed piece from the Washington Post calling Trump “the adult in the room”: 

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/opinions-trump-won-the-night-schumer-and-pelosi-lost/ar-BBRZLKt

Mark Levin said last night that Trump was “brilliant” and called Pelosi and Schumer “pathological liars”. 
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Thiessen wrote a book on justifying enhanced interrogation techniques aka torture by the CIA. Levin is a complete partisan hack. I get that they have influence but these are hardliners who will never abandon their support. Outside of Trumpkins needing reassurance this morning I’m not sure either are of any consequence.

 
BobbyLayne said:
Thiessen wrote a book on justifying enhanced interrogation techniques aka torture by the CIA. Levin is a complete partisan hack. I get that they have influence but these are hardliners who will never abandon their support. Outside of Trumpkins needing reassurance this morning I’m not sure either are of any consequence.
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Exactly.

The people who matter are in Congress, and they are already starting to peel off and call for an end to the shutdown.

 
Can it play out like this: Let him declare his national emergency, government gets reopened, the national emergency gets shot down in courts as presidential overreach. 

He gets to save his makeup covered face, Dems look like they didn't cave, precedent is set on the limits of this power (ie the Prez can't just make up a crisis)

What I don't know is the court process part, how long that would take, and if they would be likely or not to see this as insane overreach or can the Prez really do whatever they want.

 
The Commish said:
If Trump doesn't run, the issue goes away.  This is his issue he created.  
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I really disagree with this. Trump took advantage of an issue that’s been big with conservatives for years, decades even. No reason to think that this doesn’t continue with other Republicans. 

 
The Commish said:
If Trump doesn't run, the issue goes away.  This is his issue he created.  If he's not in the equation, the Senate and House can presumably pass any one of the deals already agreed upon by the sides and move on.
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this 100%...no other dem or R is going to bring up the Wall again...immigration/border security/DACA will always be issues but no one cares about a wall except Trump and right wingers that don't want Trump to lose face.

 
timschochet said:
I really disagree with this. Trump took advantage of an issue that’s been big with conservatives for years, decades even. No reason to think that this doesn’t continue with other Republicans.  
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No one is going to play the hits on this like Trump. it's like someone else trying to sing "La Bamba" - it's Richie Valens song, the rest of them sound like karaoke.

Sure it will be an issue but there's not going to be another person who is this singularly driven about this.

 
timschochet said:
Conservatives remain solidly behind President Trump. Here is a Marc Thiessen op-Ed piece from the Washington Post ...
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He was, in short, presidential.
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Have you talked to any Trumpites lately? They are expecting a wall. Like a "wall" wall. This is the stage in the condo selling process where Trump starts to explain that the term "luxury" is actually somewhat loose. These people are not going to be happy, even if they get new "fence".

 
timschochet said:
I really disagree with this. Trump took advantage of an issue that’s been big with conservatives for years, decades even. No reason to think that this doesn’t continue with other Republicans. 
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So you think the recent votes on this topic are false?  Fake?  I mean we have a voting record on it....bills have based both the senate and house.  Why do you think that would change moving forward?  FFS, people are talking about the potential of a veto proof majority bill.  When was the last time that was discussed?  Will "border security" as a topic go away?  Of course not.  If that's what you meant, you need not quote me to quibble that point.  It wasn't one I was attempting to make or even discussing.

 
joffer said:
No update on the mood over at Frree Republic?  You’re slipping.
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I admit I read that forum probably too much. The news media is always wondering when the first cracks will appear in the lovefest for Trump among his base; I figure that it will show up in FreeRepublic when it happens. So far it hasn’t. Man do they hate Alexandria Cortez though. Calling her every sexist and racist term they can think of. 

 
The Commish said:
So you think the recent votes on this topic are false?  Fake?  I mean we have a voting record on it....bills have based both the senate and house.  Why do you think that would change moving forward?  FFS, people are talking about the potential of a veto proof majority bill.  When was the last time that was discussed?  Will "border security" as a topic go away?  Of course not.  If that's what you meant, you need not quote me to quibble that point.  It wasn't one I was attempting to make or even discussing.
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What I’m saying is that there will continue to be a populist push from the Republican base to build a wall on our southern border and come down hard on illegal immigrants. How that push manifests itself in terms of actual voting I don’t know. But the issue will continue beyond Donald Trump. 

 
timschochet said:
Mark Levin
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Something to remember about these guys is they are compromised. If Trump is the developer of the shady condo project, Levin, Limbaugh, Ingraham, Coulter and the rest were the real estate agents. They're on the hook for this horse manure as gold scheme. And when it starts coming due they can either reinforce what's going on and paint it as gold for as long as they can or they can bolt and yell they were duped just like everyone else. Coulter was actually turning to the latter last month. - And all the Trumpites are wall material experts now, thanks to Trump himself. Best case scenario for Trump is he gets some new fence that looks like old fence. It ain't gonna be the glorious concrete or steel wall they've been promised. Just a matter of time.

 
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The internet is having way too much fun with this absurd AP Politics Fact Check:

"AP FACT CHECK: Democrats put the blame for the shutdown on Trump. But it takes two to tango. Trump's demand for $5.7 billion for his border wall is one reason for the budget impasse. The Democrats refusal to approve the money is another."

My favorite so far:

"AP FACT CHECK: Leia put the blame for the destruction of Alderaan on Darth Vader. But it takes two to tango. Vader shooting a powerful superlaser at the planet is one reason it was destroyed. Leia's refusal to tell him where the Rebel base was is another."

 
Not directly related to the shutdown - but I was really disappointed with NPR this morning.  They had an interview with a Coast Guard Admiral - and whomever was conducting the interview  for NPR was embarrassingly anti-Trump. 

The questions were not even subtly biased.

 
timschochet said:
I really disagree with this. Trump took advantage of an issue that’s been big with conservatives for years, decades even. No reason to think that this doesn’t continue with other Republicans. 
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Tim is correct here.  Trump's base really does want that stupid wall.  The next guy will make a big deal out of border security too.

 
NYT FactCheck summary:

“The federal government remains shut down for one reason and one reason only: because Democrats will not fund border security.”

False.

Democrats have offered $1.3 billion in funding for border security measures like enhanced surveillance and fortified fencing. They do not support Mr. Trump’s border wall.

At a meeting with Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Schumer in December, Mr. Trump took responsibility for the partial government shutdown.

“I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I’m not going to blame you for it,” he said.

— Linda Qiu

“Every day, Customs and Border Patrol agents encounter thousands of illegal immigrants trying to enter our country.”

This is misleading.

In November, the agency, which is actually named Customs and Border Protection (and which oversees the Border Patrol), apprehended 51,856 people trying to cross the border illegally. That’s about 1,700 per day.

The agency also deemed another 10,600 “inadmissible,” which refers to people who seek lawful entry into the United States but are barred from doing so. Together, that would be over 2,000, but “inadmissible” is not the same thing as illegal entry.

— Linda Qiu

“Senator Chuck Schumer, who you will be hearing from later tonight, has repeatedly supported a physical barrier in the past, along with other Democrats.”

This needs context.

Twenty-six Senate Democrats — including Mr. Schumer — voted for a 2006 law that authorized about 700 miles of fencing along the southwest border. During the 2016 presidential campaign, Mr. Trump characterized the 2006 legislation as inadequate, dismissing it as “such a little wall, it was such a nothing wall.”

As part of his campaign, Mr. Trump promised to build a 1,000-mile concrete border wall. He sometimes calls the wall a fence, though he has also rejected suggestions that it is a fence.

— Linda Qiu

“America proudly welcomes millions of lawful immigrants who enrich our society and contribute to our nation, but all Americans are hurt by uncontrolled illegal migration. It strains public resources and drives down jobs and wages.”

This needs context.

Some economists argue that immigrants drive down available jobs and wages for Americans only if they are competing for the same jobs as the domestic work force. In many cases, immigrants — legal or illegal — are seeking jobs that American citizens do not want to do.

Kevin Hassett, the White House’s top economist, argued before joining the Trump administration that immigration spurs economic growth and that the United States should double its intake of immigrants.

— Alan Rappeport

“Every week 300 of our citizens are killed by heroin alone, 90 percent of which floods across our southern border.”

This needs context.

Most heroin smuggled into the United States does come through the southwest border, according to the Drug Enforcement Administration’s latest National Drug Threat Assessment report.

Fentanyl is a narcotic that is used to treat severe pain and is a key contributor the opioid crisis. It is also sometimes mixed with heroin.

But most fentanyl enters the United States from packages mailed directly from China through traditional ports of entry, according to the report, and through Canada from China. A lower-potency, lower-cost grade of fentanyl is also smuggled across the southwest border from Mexico. The fentanyl directly from China is far more lucrative for sellers because of its higher purity. The fentanyl sent through conventional mail packages has proved difficult for law enforcement to detect. Fentanyl coming from Mexico is often hidden in automobile compartments, much like conventional drug smuggling.

The president’s opioids commission reported last November that “we are losing this fight predominately through China.”

— Michael Tackett

“In the last two years, ICE officers made 266,000 arrests of aliens with criminal records.”

This needs context.

In the 2017 and 2018 fiscal years, Immigration and Customs Enforcement arrested over 210,876 people with previous criminal convictions, and another 55,233 people with pending criminal charges.

But it should be noted that these criminal convictions covered a range of offenses, including many that were nonviolent. The most common charges were for traffic violations, possessing or selling drugs and immigration offenses like illegal entry.

— Linda Qiu

“The wall will also be paid for, indirectly by the great new trade deal we have made with Mexico.”

False.

First, the revised North American Free Trade Agreement, known as the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement, has yet to pass in Congress. Any economic benefits from the agreement, if it passes, will most likely come in the form of lower tariffs for American companies or higher wages for American workers.

This is different from Mr. Trump’s campaign promise that Mexico would finance the wall.

— Alan Rappeport

“The border wall would very quickly pay for itself.”

This needs context.

The president has claimed that the annual cost of illegal drugs in the United States is $500 billion. But a 2015 report by the surgeon general estimated that the annual economic impact of illicit drug use is $193 billion.

Stopping the flow of drugs across the southwest border would not entirely stem the flow of drugs across the United States. Moreover, it is not clear how reducing the cost of drug addiction would finance the wall.

— Alan Rappeport

Fact check: the Democratic response

SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER OF NEW YORK, THE DEMOCRATIC LEADER:

“No president should pound the table and demand he gets his way or else the government shuts down, hurting millions of Americans who are treated as leverage.”

This needs context.

An estimated 800,000 federal workers are furloughed or working without pay because of the shutdown. While millions of Americans are not being directly harmed, there is a multiplier effect when considering family members of those whose jobs are affected. This also spills into the broader economy, harming business owners whose customers must cut back, tourism and travel.

— Alan Rappeport

Reaction to President Trump’s Speech

Republicans

Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina, told Fox News’s Sean Hannity that he had never seen Mr. Trump behave in such a presidential manner. And he issued a dire warning to Mr. Trump’s base.

“If we undercut the president, that’s the end of his presidency and the end of our party,” Mr. Graham said.

“As the president clearly laid out tonight, we have a growing humanitarian and security crisis on our southern border,” Representative Kay Granger of Texas, the ranking member on the House Appropriations Committee, said in a statement.

“I stand ready and willing to work with the White House and my friends on both sides of the aisle in the House and Senate to find a legislative solution to border security and reopen the government.”

Democrats

Even before the speech began, Democrats were preparing their rebuttals.

“President Trump is going to use the public airwaves to spread fear and misinformation tonight,” tweeted Representative David Cicilline of Rhode Island, the head of the Democrats’ messaging arm. “I’m going to correct the record.”

In a more lighthearted jab, Senator Christopher S. Murphy, Democrat of Connecticut, joked that he unsuccessfully tried to get Senator Brian Schatz, Democrat of Hawaii, to “livestream a Trump’s Not Telling The Truth drinking game tonight.”

“Me and him, shot of beer every time Trump says something made up,” Mr. Murphy wrote on Twitter. “He didn’t bite.” (Mr. Schatz, live-tweeting the speech, noted instead: “This is dark.”)

And during the speech, Democrats flooded the internet with their own commentary, frequently reflecting Mr. Trump’s rhetoric back at his administration.

“Donald Trump’s presidency is a national emergency!” wrote Representative Ilhan Omar, Democrat of Minnesota.

But it was perhaps Representative Hakeem Jeffries of New York, the No. 5 House Democrat, who most succinctly summed up his party’s response: “We are not paying a $5 billion ransom note for your medieval border wall,” he tweeted, with a castle emoji. “And nothing you just said will change that cold, hard reality.”

— Emily Cochrane and Catie Edmondson
Click to expand...

 
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IvanKaramazov said:
Tim is correct here.  Trump's base really does want that stupid wall.  The next guy will make a big deal out of border security too.
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This is definitely true, but 1. they are going to see they were burned by Trump, and 2. who has Trump's special marketing skill set? Not any politicians I can think of, that was partly Trump's unique appeal.

 
timschochet said:
What I’m saying is that there will continue to be a populist push from the Republican base to build a wall on our southern border and come down hard on illegal immigrants. How that push manifests itself in terms of actual voting I don’t know. But the issue will continue beyond Donald Trump. 
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Thanks for the clarification.....wasn't what I was saying nor the post I was replying to was talking about, but I don't disagree with this either.

 
Conservation I had Sunday night with my father in law, staunch conservative who supports Trump on the wall: 

Him: There’s not a country on Earth which doesn’t protect their borders. Most of them have walls. Look at Singapore. 

Me: I’ve never been, but isn’t that an island? 

Him: They don’t allow just anybody in. Look at China. 

Me: Never been there either, but I know they have a pretty big wall there. 

Him: And I’ll bet it’s effective. 

Me: Well it was until about 1300 or so....

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Tim is correct here.  Trump's base really does want that stupid wall.  The next guy will make a big deal out of border security too.
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I guess we'll see how this plays out, but I think on a scale it will be much closer to the "lip service" service side than the "this is a national crisis" side.

The next person definitely won't allow themselves to get this boxed in on this singular issue, takes a special kind of idiot to get where we are at and I just can't see another one of those out there.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Tim is correct here.  Trump's base really does want that stupid wall.  The next guy will make a big deal out of border security too.
Click to expand...
FYI...."issue" here was the shutdown, not "a wall".  I don't know if you were following along or not.  Just thought I'd throw that out there to be clear.  I don't disagree that people will clamour for a wall forever.  That's not what was being discussed though.

 
timschochet said:
Conservation I had Sunday night with my father in law, staunch conservative who supports Trump on the wall: 

Him: There’s not a country on Earth which doesn’t protect their borders. Most of them have walls. Look at Singapore. 

Me: I’ve never been, but isn’t that an island? 

Him: They don’t allow just anybody in. Look at China. 

Me: Never been there either, but I know they have a pretty big wall there. 

Him: And I’ll bet it’s effective. 

Me: Well it was until about 1300 or so....
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See - I would probably be in favor of a Great Wall style wall, that took decades to build.  

Jobs for everyone.  Tourist attraction when its done.  Place for motorcycle jumps...

Plus, you could use the Space Force to keep an eye on it from Space!*

(*not really, but most people probably believe you can see the Great Wall of China from space, so they would buy it)

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Have you talked to any Trumpites lately? They are expecting a wall. Like a "wall" wall. This is the stage in the condo selling process where Trump starts to explain that the term "luxury" is actually somewhat loose. These people are not going to be happy, even if they get new "fence".
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But isn't trump their true north? They calibrate all their thoughts on his words. If trump's puts a chain link fence up and calls ot a wall they'll say it's a wall too. Just mho, it will be interesting to see how trump's base reacts as you say. I'd like to see to that way?

 
Steve Tasker said:
Didn't watch any of the speech last night nor have I read any media about it.  Someone give me a tl;dr ELI5.
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Nobody budged.

Trump:  I love each and every one of you - particularly the african Americans and hispanics -  thats why I want a wall.  Dems hate you, and all government employees.

Chuck & Nancy:  We want to open the government and border security.  We will not cave to the little kid throwing a tantrum in the background.

 
Banger said:
this 100%...no other dem or R is going to bring up the Wall again...immigration/border security/DACA will always be issues but no one cares about a wall except Trump and right wingers that don't want Trump to lose face.
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Ih I don't know. Trump will leave but there will be Trumpism for quite a while in my opinion. See Europe. 

 
@Steve Tasker - a few reactions:

Nate Silver✔@NateSilver538

There was nothing too interesting in that speech, and nothing too interesting about that speech.

Elizabeth Bruenig✔@ebruenig

tonight was sort of a mess for everyone involved

 
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