Undocumented Immigrant Thread

[Stealthycat]

1 minute ago, sho nuff said:

I don't think the dems are going to link spending bills and the wall with gun control.

I agree

As Henry Ford pointed out and others before .... that 2013 Senate suggestion was what Democrats wanted and they were going to give to get it.

Trump/GOP could get massive border funding if he'd give on Immigration more - and truth is, doing it would be win win win win win for everyone ONLY if that border gets secured

[Banger]

remember when kneeling at NFL games was a crisis?  good times....

[Gopher State]

2 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

Its not up to them to only provide bills he likes.  Its not up to McConnell really either...he simply isn't doing his job.

They are concerned about the workers (twice passing bills...one that passed 100-0 in the senate...and another passing the newest House).

Agreed, but speak out more for the people who are affected by the shutdown.  They should take the lead on this ask Trump to meet with them each day, pass a new bill each day, keep the pressure on Trump.

[sho nuff]

1 minute ago, Gopher State said:

Agreed, but speak out more for the people who are affected by the shutdown.  They should take the lead on this ask Trump to meet with them each day, pass a new bill each day, keep the pressure on Trump.

You don't pass bills each day...doesn't really work that way.

But yes, Democrats in the Senate should be calling every day for McConnell to take up the House measure...as should the House members be doing the same.

 

[Gopher State]

1 minute ago, ClownCausedChaos2 said:

Screw it.  Let him have it.  The Democrats should give it to him, citing a concern for American safety and empathy for federal workers.

Let him has his victory lap, then let him #### it up through corrupt construction contracts and general ineptitude.

I wonder about this, the shutdown probably has cost more in economic loss to our economy then the cost of the dumb wall.

[jamny]

Does giving Trump $5B for a wall take away a talking point for 2020 or help him for 2020?

If they give him the money but insist on calling it "border security", it leaves him open to using it again in the next campaign. If they give it to him for a wall, he'll tout the win even if it does nothing.

McConnell should push a $5B for border security + DACA, should pass the House and put it on Trump's desk to veto.

 

 

[timschochet]

3 minutes ago, ClownCausedChaos2 said:

Screw it.  Let him have it.  The Democrats should give it to him, citing a concern for American safety and empathy for federal workers.

Let him has his victory lap, then let him #### it up through corrupt construction contracts and general ineptitude.

No. You can’t let him blackmail Congress. 

[Banger]

1 minute ago, jamny said:

Does giving Trump $5B for a wall take away a talking point for 2020 or help him for 2020?

If they give him the money but insist on calling it "border security", it leaves him open to using it again in the next campaign. If they give it to him for a wall, he'll tout the win even if it does nothing.

McConnell should push a $5B for border security + DACA, should pass the House and put it on Trump's desk to veto.

 

 

done

[sho nuff]

Just now, timschochet said:

No. You can’t let him blackmail Congress. 

And throw tantrums after having a deal (by all reports and appearances) .

This is multiple times now...

[Fan of Charles McCoy]

2 minutes ago, Gopher State said:

Agreed, but speak out more for the people who are affected by the shutdown.  They should take the lead on this ask Trump to meet with them each day, pass a new bill each day, keep the pressure on Trump.

Yes, I love this.

The House passes this same bill every morning. Tweet about it, interview on it, press conferences on it. Talk about what what is in this bill. Talk about how it will reopen government. 

Do this, and the Senate will balk, and finally do their job.

[butcher boy]

16 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

Right.  So that means it's not a $5 billion payment in isolation.  It's $5 billion payment as either (1) the first of five installment payments, or (2) literally a complete waste of money.

I appreciate the request for links, always a good thing to ask about when someone makes a claim:

experts

experts

experts (Cato!)

experts (Cato again!)

experts

I admit to taking a little poetic license with "every expert in the world." I'm sure there's a couple people out there who think it's a good idea, just as there's a few doctors out there who oppose vaccines or whatever. But the consensus opinion about the wall is obvious and overwhelming.

 

 

OK, we can both find experts on each side of the argument...

experts

experts

experts

There's hardly a consensus.  Even the polls that show something like 56% of Americans oppose the wall is nowhere near consensus.  

Edited January 9, 2019 by butcher boy

[Banger]

1 minute ago, timschochet said:

No. You can’t let him blackmail Congress. 

100%...because he will do it again, and again and again.  he's a bully and that's the way he operates....

[Henry Ford]

29 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

a few weeks ago, House, Senate and Trump all voted in consensus for a 867 BILLION Farm Bill

5 billion for a border wall is .576 % of the total farm bill (edited)

this is ABSOLUTELY a political agenda fight - for both sides

Can you explain what that has to do with the post you quoted?

[timschochet]

1 minute ago, jamny said:

 

McConnell should push a $5B for border security + DACA, should pass the House and put it on Trump's desk to veto.

 

 

It really surprises me how many people think this is going to happen. It’s not, because the same people who are demanding a wall are also fiercely opposed to DACA- they’ll agree to it only as part of a complete nationalist overhaul of our immigration system that sharply reduces all immigration from Latin America and ends what they call chain migration. 

[joffer]

I think the wall polls slightly lower than his approval rating.  I don't think having it as a campaign issue in 2020 has a big effect either way.

[SaintsInDome2006]

3 minutes ago, butcher boy said:

OK, we can both find experts on each side of the argument...

experts

Quote

The chief of U.S. Border Patrol during Barack Obama's presidency said Monday that President Trump is right in his view that border walls are effective.

Dis USBP produce a report or finding saying this?

[Don't Noonan]

35 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Well I asked last night how this was going to end. I’m not seeing it. Both sides are digging in. 

Agreed

[Banger]

3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

It really surprises me how many people think this is going to happen. It’s not, because the same people who are demanding a wall are also fiercely opposed to DACA- they’ll agree to it only as part of a complete nationalist overhaul of our immigration system that sharply reduces all immigration from Latin America and ends what they call chain migration. 

exactly....they want their cake and want to eat it too.  That's not a negotiation.  

Give me what I want and I'll take the gun away from your head.....that's not a negotiation.

[butcher boy]

2 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Dis USBP produce a report or finding saying this?

I have no idea. I just think that the former chief of USBP qualifies as an expert.  

[Ignoramus]

33 minutes ago, James Daulton said:

Maybe Trump is negotiating with Mexico to pay for his wall?  You know, like he talked about for over year?

I'm pretty sure he got told pretty early on that Mexico "will not be paying for that ####### wall."

[Banger]

3 minutes ago, joffer said:

I think the wall polls slightly lower than his approval rating.  I don't think having it as a campaign issue in 2020 has a big effect either way.

they tried it at the mid-terms with the whole military to the border show and they got smoked.....

[timschochet]

A lot of people seem to think that McConnell will end this. But the problem with that is the same problem McConnell has faced since the rise of the Tea Party: to side with the Democrats he has to defy the Republican base, and in so doing start a civil war in the GOP. He has yet to do this, and I doubt it’s going to happen any time soon, no matter how much pressure he faces. I hope I’m wrong though. 

[2Squirrels1Nut]

4 hours ago, JuniorNB said:

Trump was offered 25 billion last year and turned it down.  Now he's fighting tooth and nail to try to get 5.7.  Yeah, he's quite the deal maker.  lol  He's been getting destroyed.

Trump is the Kramer of negotiating

[Ignoramus]

29 minutes ago, belljr said:

guess i better get ready for unemployment filing

Oof. That sucks.

[SaintsInDome2006]

Just now, butcher boy said:

I have no idea. I just think that the former chief of USBP qualifies as an expert.  

He does but that's the thing. He's talking about walls, fences, barriers, whatever, wherever.

Houses are helpful. Houses are proven by facts and history to be useful. Go ask a bank for a loan to build a house for a million dollars, and then when they ask for the plans and the location say you have no idea, you just know houses work.

[[scooter]]

12 minutes ago, ClownCausedChaos2 said:

Screw it.  Let him have it.  The Democrats should give it to him, citing a concern for American safety and empathy for federal workers.

Let him has his victory lap, then let him #### it up through corrupt construction contracts and general ineptitude.

Come on, this is a terrible idea, and it has nothing to do with giving any side a "win".

We cannot set the precedent of trading temper tantrums for deficits.

Also, by the time anyone discovers the corruption and ineptitude, Trump will be long dead and his epitaph will already be written.

[doolin]

1 hour ago, Bucky86 said:

Apparently Trump just walked out of a meeting after he asked Pelosi if she'd fund his wall and she said no. 

I have absolutely no problem with this.  He wants the wall and the Democrats won't budge on the issue.  Neither side wants to talk.

[Banger]

6 minutes ago, Ignoramus said:

I'm pretty sure he got told pretty early on that Mexico "will not be paying for that ####### wall."

it was in his first call with the president of Mexico 

Nieto :  This is what I suggest, Mr. President – let us stop talking about the wall. I have recognized the right of any government to protect its borders as it deems necessary and convenient. But my position has been and will continue to be very firm saying that Mexico cannot pay for that wall.

TRUMP:  But you cannot say that to the press. The press is going to go with that and I cannot live with that. You cannot say that to the press because I cannot negotiate under those circumstances.

 

complete conman.....

Edited January 9, 2019 by Banger

[joffer]

5 minutes ago, Banger said:

they tried it at the mid-terms with the whole military to the border show and they got smoked.....

so it may hurt them a little.  i think the blue wave would have happened either way.

[roadkill1292]

2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

A lot of people seem to think that McConnell will end this. But the problem with that is the same problem McConnell has faced since the rise of the Tea Party: to side with the Democrats he has to defy the Republican base, and in so doing start a civil war in the GOP. He has yet to do this, and I doubt it’s going to happen any time soon, no matter how much pressure he faces. I hope I’m wrong though. 

Yeah, Senate pubbies aren't going to lift a finger in any dispute over the next 22 months until they absolutely have to. They're gonna stay quiet, only hopping to confirm the next Kavanaugh.

That won't save them if there's another Big Blue Wave next November.

[Ilov80s]

11 minutes ago, joffer said:

I think the wall polls slightly lower than his approval rating.  I don't think having it as a campaign issue in 2020 has a big effect either way.

538 referred this as an unpopular President using an unpopular mechanism to push an unpopular issue. 

[2Squirrels1Nut]

3 hours ago, Banger said:

you want more lies?  many more where these came from...

 

The Daily Beast‏Verified account @thedailybeast

WATCH: Trump argues that we need a border wall to stop migrants just driving right across in their "unbelievable vehicles... stronger, bigger, and faster vehicles than our police have, than ICE has"

https://twitter.com/thedailybeast/status/1083061110264217600

 

ya, the poor undocumented workers looking work in fields, construction or in MaraLago are riding over in monster trucks...sounds reasonable...

Probably thinking of this

[timschochet]

1 minute ago, roadkill1292 said:

Yeah, Senate pubbies aren't going to lift a finger in any dispute over the next 22 months until they absolutely have to. They're gonna stay quiet, only hopping to confirm the next Kavanaugh.

That won't save them if there's another Big Blue Wave next November.

Eventually this is what happens to all coalitions of people with fundamental disagreements. 

For the last 50 years, since around 1968, the Republican Party has had a leadership with one priority and a grass roots with another. Somehow they’ve managed to hold that together, but I don’t know if they can continue to do so. 

[Sinn Fein]

Just now, butcher boy said:

OK, we can both find experts on each side of the argument...

experts

This is your "expert"?

"Mr. Morgan, a former F.B.I. agent, was appointed chief in June and took over in October. He was the first chief in the agency’s 93-year history who had never worked as a border patrol agent. He had led the internal affairs office at Customs and Border Protection before taking over the Border Patrol.

His appointment drew criticism from the National Border Patrol Council, the union for Border Patrol workers, which said an insider should have been appointed to head the agency."

 

He stepped down in January 2017 - so I guess October-January is pretty good experience for an expert 

 

[[scooter]]

3 minutes ago, butcher boy said:

7 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Dis USBP produce a report or finding saying this?

I have no idea. I just think that the former chief of USBP qualifies as an expert.  

That same expert has advocated for comprehensive immigration reform (including amnesty for many current illegals), and was accused by rank and file of not knowing anything about his job, which is part of the reason why he was fired.

Funny how the Wall crowd doesn't like to bring up those facts.

[sho nuff]

2 minutes ago, 2Squirrels1Nut said:

Probably thinking of this

Would you say I had a plethora of monster trucks?

[Sinn Fein]

11 minutes ago, butcher boy said:

I have no idea. I just think that the former chief of USBP qualifies as an expert.  

 

Just now, Sinn Fein said:

This is your "expert"?

"Mr. Morgan, a former F.B.I. agent, was appointed chief in June and took over in October. He was the first chief in the agency’s 93-year history who had never worked as a border patrol agent. He had led the internal affairs office at Customs and Border Protection before taking over the Border Patrol.

His appointment drew criticism from the National Border Patrol Council, the union for Border Patrol workers, which said an insider should have been appointed to head the agency."

 

He stepped down in January 2017 - so I guess October-January is pretty good experience for an expert 

 

 

 

You might want to re-think that...Never worked as an agent, left after 3 months....

[SaintsInDome2006]

13 minutes ago, butcher boy said:

experts

Quote

First up was Brandon Judd, a U.S. Border Patrol agent and president of the National Border Patrol Council, who immediately thanked the president for his staunch support for the men and women of the Border Patrol and Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency.

“I’ve been a Border Patrol agent for 21 years, and I can personally tell you from the work that I have done on the southwest border that physical barriers, that walls, actually work,” said Judd.

“You hear a lot of talk that there are ‘experts’ that say that walls don’t work,” he continued. “I promise you that if you interview Border Patrol agents, they will tell you that walls work.”

- Did the GOP House or Senate have him before a committee? What were their findings?

There's a disconnect. I'm sure the fencing has worked in some areas. It's not your fault, it's assbackwards, that's all. Usually a Congressional committee has guys like this testify, they produce a report, and it says we need x miles of fence in these locations, and it will reduce drug traffic this much, illegal immigration this much, and crime this much, at a cost of $X.

This #### is lined up months in advance. The problem is you have a president who doesn't know what the hell he's doing.

[TobiasFunke]

13 minutes ago, butcher boy said:

OK, we can both find experts on each side of the argument...

experts

experts

experts

There's hardly a consensus.  Even the polls that show something like 56% of Americans oppose the wall is nowhere near consensus.  

It is telling that not one of those three links includes a relevant statistic or any sort of detailed analysis.  The only statistics at all come from an ICE guy so extreme he can't get confirmed even though Trump appointed him acting director two years ago saying "arrests of MS-13 [gang] this year are up 118 percent, the seizures of guns — for God’s sake — are up almost 200 percent," which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether a wall would be effective in stopping those things. Otherwise it's just a bunch of ICE/CBP enforcement types saying "walls work" as if that's somehow persuasive.

[The Indestructible]

Sam Stein‏Verified account @samstein

Per source familiar:

Schumer: you’re using people as leverage. why won’t you open the government and stop hurting people?

POTUS: because then you won’t give me what I want

[SaintsInDome2006]

1 minute ago, [scooter] said:

That same expert has advocated for comprehensive immigration reform (including amnesty for many current illegals), and was accused by rank and file of not knowing anything about his job, which is part of the reason why he was fired.

Funny how the Wall crowd doesn't like to bring up those facts.

Gosh imagine if someone like this with this kind of credibility was actually in the cabinet. Ohh welll...

[JuniorNB]

27 minutes ago, ClownCausedChaos2 said:

Screw it.  Let him have it.  The Democrats should give it to him, citing a concern for American safety and empathy for federal workers.

Let him has his victory lap, then let him #### it up through corrupt construction contracts and general ineptitude.

And then the next Democrat President can have his 'Tear down this wall' moment.

[TobiasFunke]

23 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

You don't pass bills each day...doesn't really work that way.

But yes, Democrats in the Senate should be calling every day for McConnell to take up the House measure...as should the House members be doing the same.

 

They are.  The Dem Senators are even talking about boycotting all other Senate business until McConnell takes it up.  They already blocked a mideast policy bill because of this.

[Ignoramus]

Which of these statements is not true?

1. Just a week ago Trump had a Republican Senate and a Republican House.

2. Trump told us he would be happy to own the shutdown.

3. Trump shut down the government while he had a Republican Senate and a Republican house.

4. This is all the Democrats' fault.

[Banger]

this may be the first time in Trump's life he's heard no and he's acting like it.

[Ilov80s]

32 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I was thinking about that earlier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_United_States_federal_budget

Department of Homeland Security$44.1 billion$2.8 billion+7%Increases spending on border security and immigration enforcement and builds a wall on the US-Mexico border. Cuts funding for certain FEMA grant programs.

2.8B increase was signed last year, right? was there any Democrat support for that?  if there was ........... what changed that makes this years budget and border security allocation so much different? 2.2 billion ? that's chump change ..

 

this is a political agenda for both sides

Trump threatened to veto that bill because it didn’t fund his wall. He couldn’t get the funding for it when he had both houses. Now he wants double the amount he got approved.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Ilov80s

[Banger]

1 minute ago, TobiasFunke said:

They are.  The Dem Senators are even talking about boycotting all other Senate business until McConnell takes it up.  They already blocked a mideast policy bill because of this.

as they should....get the gov't employees back to work and get them paid....they shouldn't be used as human pawns....

[Banger]

Just now, Ilov80s said:

Trump threatened to veto that bill because it didn’t fund his wall. He couldn’t get the funding for it when he had both houses. Now he wants double the amount.

he's using one of his legendary negotiating tactics which you clearly don't understand....when you have no leverage you DOUBLE DOWN

[squistion]

From Univ. of Alabama law professor and MSNBC contributor Joyce Vance:

Joyce Alene‏ @JoyceWhiteVance 51m51 minutes ago

If your kid told you he wouldn’t do his homework unless you gave him a sack of candy & when you said no, he argued he was having a nutrition crisis that could only be fixed if he got a sack of candy, you wouldn’t negotiate over how many pieces you would give him, would you?

Also, I don’t care that Trump brought candy to his meeting with Chuck & Nancy, do U?

https://twitter.com/JoyceWhiteVance/status/1083107566715129858

[jamny]

The fact that he's not even pushing to fully fund the wall shows that he doesn't really give a #### about it and just wants the win. Even if he got the $5B, it won't be enough.