joey
Footballguy
Wait a sec?!? Are you saying that critics might only be good at poking holes in things others create but don’t have what it takes if they’re asked to create something themselves?!?
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
*** Official *** Star Wars Episode 9: The Rise of Skywalker (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Worm
- Start date
shader
Footballguy
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2019/12/24/star-wars-box-office-rise-of-skywalker-nabs-huge-29m-monday-and-crosses-400m-worldwide/#15ba720255e1
Not surprising to me, but episode 9 had a huge Monday and has completely avoided the massive dropoff that plagued TLJ. I think this movie will do awesome at the box office when it's all said and done.
Of course that article has some major flaws, one of them being that the "word of mouth" is poor, an opinion I totally disagree with. Word of mouth on this movie has been fantastic.
Not surprising to me, but episode 9 had a huge Monday and has completely avoided the massive dropoff that plagued TLJ. I think this movie will do awesome at the box office when it's all said and done.
Of course that article has some major flaws, one of them being that the "word of mouth" is poor, an opinion I totally disagree with. Word of mouth on this movie has been fantastic.
Last edited by a moderator:
Insein
Footballguy
Of course there's fuel. Making it a key plot point that prevents rebels from escaping and empire from capturing simultaneously so they could have their OJ style space chase is what infuriated people.
bryhamm
Footballguy
I saw it on Monday. Wanted to avoid the masses of the weekend. 1pm showing and it was busier than I thought it would be.
Agree about word of mouth ... almost everyone I’ve talked to liked it.
Scoresman
Footballguy
But why is it so infuriating? Those big ### star destroyers have other weaknesses like not being able to target fast moving X-wings at short range. Maybe this is another. Why is this so far fetched? It sounds so much to me like a criticism in search of a flaw.
Insein
Footballguy
Because they presumably have squadrons of fighters and bombers to just go finish them off. Like real life navies. Like Star wars navies in the prequels and the EU.
shader
Footballguy
I'm very accepting of movies. But to me it felt a bit weird. The First order should have been able to have had another dreadnought light-speed into a position directly in front of the rebellion and then finish them off. Generally, we're accepting of small flaws, especially when they have to do with space and sci-fi. As an example my biggest "gripe" with the newest film is the light speed skipping thing. It made no sense to me how they could light-speed skip, and the tie fighters could too. I thought once you went to light speed, you lost the people following you. So that just made zero sense to me. But it was also a 20 second chance that had nothing really to do with the movie as a whole, so I wrote it off and it's really my only lasting "flaw" of the film.
But in The Last Jedi, the plot-hole is not just a 20-second scene, but it's the backbone of the plot and lasts over an hour.
Last edited by a moderator:
Politician Spock
Footballguy
My only issue with Ep 9 is that it requires that right around the time that Anakin and Padme were making puppies.... so was Palpatine. :X
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I guess my vision is that the academy or something similar would have been resurrected, apparently not unlike Palpatine, by the 7th movie.shader said:
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
You know what it means. Ep7 was very much a beat for beat rehash of E4 with a couple slight twists. Imo the last 1/2 of Ep 9 felt very RotJ. See the new Star Treks- it's what Abrams does and is good at.shader said:
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Agree completely and you expressed it better than I did. This is the part I don't like of the 1-3 and 7-9 trilogies. I think something different would have been much better.
I'm reasonably sure he was just an old dude at the time, and not the Dark Raisin just yet. Still pretty gross, but not as bad as the alternative.
shader
Footballguy
Old powerful creeps taking advantage of young women . Unfortunately, a tale as old as time
Todem
Footballguy
Insein
Footballguy
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I’m just talking about the main movies. You can’t assume everyone seeing the movies are familiar with the EU.
Insein
Footballguy
I know that. But I'm just giving another example of how the EU had a logical story progression for the characters where the movies seem to not have any real idea what to do with them except kill them off just to bring them back.
shader
Footballguy
I’ll take the stories that have captured the hearts of a new generation over books that a few thousand nerds read in the 80’s...
Insein
Footballguy
shader
Footballguy
I don’t even understand your point. Who did the sequels “kill off” and bring back?
Still doesn't refute the point.
Insein
Footballguy
shader
Footballguy
Han was a “memory” that probably only returned because Carrie Fisher died, so he had the conversation she was slated to have as this was supposed to be her movie.
Luke didn’t return. He died and later came back as a force ghost. A tradition that dates back to 1977.
Last edited by a moderator:
Insein
Footballguy
Missing the point that their character progression was ####. Han was a deadbeat father, Leia was shown to be a horrible paranoid leader and Luke was a nephew murdering, coward.
Instead in the EU, Han is out making business deals for the New Republic, Leia is organizing entire systems to get back on their feet and eventually gets elected supreme chancellor to lead the new republic and Luke rebuilds the Jedi order to train the next generation. Why was it so hard to follow what was already written for them better?
AAABatteries
Footballguy
My god you people take something that is supposed to be fun so ####### serious and #### all over the thread.
Last edited by a moderator:
shader
Footballguy
Sorry man it seems like you read a bunch of nerd books and can’t let go. I tried reading the Zahn books about 15 years ago. Made it halfway through 1. Just not a fan of bad writing.
I’m a huge fan of the new films and don’t wish to spend my day arguing the merits of the 3 new Star Wars films over the plot line of 3 books.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Insein
Footballguy
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Insein
Footballguy
Except the will of the person does not determine the color. The type of kyber Crystal and how the creator manipulates it determines the color. Sith usually have red because they want red. It's intimidating and signifies who they represent. You have to significantly alter through brute Force to make a red lightsaber. Fitting for a dark force user. Same with the blue and green. Careful and skillful manipulation keeps the integrity of the crystal mostly intact and resonates with a more neutral color of blue or green.
Orange is definitely newer.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
I never read the books, so I'm not married to them in particular but I have to say, Insein's concepts sound a lot better than pure character regression.
It never sat quite right at the time of Force Awakens that the wholesale regression included most egregiously Leia's seemingly inept leadership.
Lucas got lost in the weeds of political dynamics in the Ep 1-3 world, but filling 8 hours or so content, I guess politics and war do somewhat go hand in hand in star WARS.
But in Canon, we leave the high of Jedi and then apparently all that abundance gets absolutely fumbled? Its a weird footing to jump off on. That the opposition gets essentially rebuilt rather instantly. I can deal with Luke being squirrelly and I can accept Han reverting to his nature but Leia apparently being so bad at things that she has to lead a perma-resistance.
Maybe Harrison Ford's interest/availability meant they had to close him out in Force Awakens but I think that movie might have benefitted from seeing Ben Solo's turn rather than jumping in the car when it's moving. If episode 2 becomes about Luke's crisis and exile after we at least saw what motivated it, I think it hits better. From a pure movie standpoint, its an unforgivably lost opportunity to not have Luke Han and Leia have a scene together
Or we go with something closer to what Insein suggested.
EDIT: one more thing I forgot to add, I know kennedy in particular is on record lamenting the lack of source material to build out Star Wars, as compared to the MCU and game of thrones, while ignoring her own rights to the EU. If you’re lost they weren’t a bad template if you have no clue what you’re doing, they are worse foundation points. They at least had the implied approval of the die hards and Lucas
Last edited by a moderator:
Koya
Footballguy
Wasn’t George Lucas’ “test” for weather a Star Wars film met its objective the following:
A twelve year old would love watching the film.
It’s a child’s film that is fun as heck, and a blast for adults too... but let’s not take this too seriously. It’s just a Western up in space with characters you care about and a #### ton of things getting blown up and awesome fight scenes (sabers or x-wings alike).
This has always been my take on Star Wars, certainly the core films. I recall getting old enough to “critique” the original (Ep IV New Hope aka just freakin “Star Wars)... god the acting was terrible. Got kinda campy at times. Storyline lacked some nuance and depth.
But then I remember watching it as a five year old. In a theater and enthralled by what folks ten times my age were watching as gleefully as did I.
And I reset the expectations... this isn’t Star Trek. It’s not Interstellar nor 2001 A Space Odessey. It’s a western. Good vs bad with some twists. Lots of battles. Black hats vs white hats.
It seems to me that those who ask “more” from these films miss the underlying objective of the entire series, again, at least the core 9 films. FYI, this is also my biggest issue with those who complain about the Mandalorian. A twelve year old would not be deconstructing timelines, character depth, layers of story telling... they’d just watch and be like “this is kick ###” before getting scolded for saying ###. Meanwhile a five year old would love the visuals and baby Yoda. And a 45 year old would love the visuals. And baby yoda.
IMO those who ask for more would in the end make perhaps a better overall movie without this context, but at the same time make a lesser Star Wars movie. One that is less approachable and with less breadth of audience. To overthink Star Wars is to defeat the purpose of the most pure fun film series in the galaxy.
A twelve year old would love watching the film.
It’s a child’s film that is fun as heck, and a blast for adults too... but let’s not take this too seriously. It’s just a Western up in space with characters you care about and a #### ton of things getting blown up and awesome fight scenes (sabers or x-wings alike).
This has always been my take on Star Wars, certainly the core films. I recall getting old enough to “critique” the original (Ep IV New Hope aka just freakin “Star Wars)... god the acting was terrible. Got kinda campy at times. Storyline lacked some nuance and depth.
But then I remember watching it as a five year old. In a theater and enthralled by what folks ten times my age were watching as gleefully as did I.
And I reset the expectations... this isn’t Star Trek. It’s not Interstellar nor 2001 A Space Odessey. It’s a western. Good vs bad with some twists. Lots of battles. Black hats vs white hats.
It seems to me that those who ask “more” from these films miss the underlying objective of the entire series, again, at least the core 9 films. FYI, this is also my biggest issue with those who complain about the Mandalorian. A twelve year old would not be deconstructing timelines, character depth, layers of story telling... they’d just watch and be like “this is kick ###” before getting scolded for saying ###. Meanwhile a five year old would love the visuals and baby Yoda. And a 45 year old would love the visuals. And baby yoda.
IMO those who ask for more would in the end make perhaps a better overall movie without this context, but at the same time make a lesser Star Wars movie. One that is less approachable and with less breadth of audience. To overthink Star Wars is to defeat the purpose of the most pure fun film series in the galaxy.
My feeling is that Palpatine essentially created Anakin out of the force and using Shmi as the vessel. Why wouldn’t he do the same thing with Rey’s parents? It also explains the inordinate ability levels of Anakin, Leia, Luke, Ben and Rey.
shader
Footballguy
Great points here. These movies are made for fans AND kids. Ironically, the notion that the sequels are a "reboot" is kind of true. I was thinking last night about the fact that Disney can't actually remake 4-6. So they did the next best thing, they kind of re-made them 30 years later in a modern and awesome way that completely captivated today's kids. And it worked. Kids love the new ones.
If you have kids, ask them what they think of the OT. Be honest...do they like them BECAUSE they are connected with 7-9 or because they are amazing movies. My daughter sort of liked 4-6, but didn't become a major Star Wars fan until the Force Awakens. That movie completely changed her outlook on the series.
The old movies move slow, they LOOK old (a pretty big thing for kids today), and they are cheesy. When you don't grow up with them, they aren't as fantastic as they were for some of us.
So in a sense it is a bit of a "reboot". And that's ok, because it's tremendously exciting, even if it alienates a small, small percentage of the fanbase that read Timothy Zahn. I get guys like Insein, that are disappointed. But at some point you gotta let that inner nerd go and just enjoy things. I mean..it's freaking Star Wars. There's enough divisiveness and hatred in politics and the world in general, so why be fixated on telling a bunch of people that their favorite franchise sucks.
shader
Footballguy
I'd have to go back and read a synopsis of the Zahn books to compare....but I don't really see any issues with how things progressed. Han/Leia/Luke defeated the Empire, but post dictatorships are always messy. I don't see anything in the original movies to suggest that Leia was going to be able to lead a massive government. It seems like a very realistic set of events. Luke does try to setup a Jedi academy, things go wrong, he becomes a hermit (like Yoda/Obi-Won)...the failure of a son leads to a break-up of Han/Leia...
Plus now we know that the Emperor didn't die, which makes even more sense. There's a tremendous power vacuum and although the Mandalorian does a great job of showing a world that's slowly coming apart in the absence of the Empire, the Emperor was manuevering events for an even stronger empire.
AcerFC
Footballguy
Interesting rankings here having the rise of skywalker as the worst SW movie and The last jedi as the best.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2019/12/25/rise-of-skywalker-tops-500m-star-wars-movies-ranked-from-worst-to-best/amp/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2019/12/25/rise-of-skywalker-tops-500m-star-wars-movies-ranked-from-worst-to-best/amp/
Insein
Footballguy
Yea that's Scott Mendelson. He went to the well attacking anyone who disliked TLJ for the last 2 years. He hates the new movie because it undoes almost everything he liked about TLJ.
A lot of weirdos hate ROS for weird reasons. Some hate it because it's not woke enough politically. Others hate it because Reylo wasn't happily ever after. I swear they are the scariest. Some have unironically threatened to kill JJ Abrams for killing off Kylo.
If you think the people that don't like it because of the plot was bad, can't imagine what you think of these nut jobs.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
That means jack. This description is anything from Frozen to Transformers to Karate Kid to Jurassic Park to High School Musical to The Emoji Movie.
12 year olds are entertained by just about anything.
shader
Footballguy
His opinions are absurd, as are his motivations. Of course he has every right to his opinion, but they hold no more merit than any poster on this thread. If you rank this below Phantom Menace, that’s a good way to immediately be seen as a guy whose opinion doesn’t mean much
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Koya
Footballguy
I’d respectfully disagree on this. But that is beside the point.
The point is that the entire premise of Star Wars is intentionally aimed at a non-adult audience as it’s primary guide and positioning.
Doesn’t mean that some people will like/not like. Just is what it is.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Tons of things are made for 12 year olds in mind. I dont think that is what any of the debates are about though, so not sure why it keeps getting brought up.I’d respectfully disagree on this. But that is beside the point.
The point is that the entire premise of Star Wars is intentionally aimed at a non-adult audience as it’s primary guide and positioning.
Doesn’t mean that some people will like/not like. Just is what it is.
Koya
Footballguy
Let’s do the math. 7 arrived almost 30 years after the first (28?). Thats the time for almost two generations to grow up, not to mention have movie making evolve.
There was a generation of kids that. O longer could really understand what Star Wars was, what it represented. Do we the generation old enough (but lucky enough to experience Star Wars mania v.1 - stickball bats as swords; action figures; the ******* that had the Millennium Falcon toy; tryna keep composure when a ten year old you finds out Luke’s dad is...
ANYhoo... those guttural, visceral experiences were literally part of shaping my childhood, and in a way, life. But 30 years is a LONG time.
The reboot gave another generation a chance to get in on these experiences: personal, yet shared. It’s community in its own way... a bond you feel when you see someone else who embraces something you feel in way a small part of - a tee shirt, or lunch box... or kick ### thermos (my 6 year old Nephew, who’s name is Lucas so his dad can say Luke, I am your father, and he’s 10 years younger than I).
It also allowed we Xers, a way to relive some of the first, formative memories. From watching the movies (getting a couple years older with each one, looking at it in a slightly different manner) to role playing lightsaber fights.
The physical effects in 1977 were beyond astounding. To see them recreate some of those scenes with today’s level of technology was amazing... AND a whole knew generation of 5, 8, 12 year olds gets to experience it for themselves.
Im that way, a reboot made all the sense in the worl... Galaxy.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Do you listen to podcasts? I thought of you and this thread as I listened to the Binge Mode podcast last night. Hated isnt the right word, but they were in this camp of liking the changes Johnson brought to the series, mostly going against you needing a special bloodline to be special with the force and Luke's choices. I think you would like their podcasts- they are talking about the Mandalorian too.
Mostly their beefs were bringing back the Emperor without a reason how (setting it up for people to wonder if he is even dead this time), and taking few chances emotionally- the Chewie fake out, the C3PO mind wipe/R2 fix, etc. They brought up a lot of interesting points and back knowledge of interviews and articles. I could see people really not liking this one.
Insein
Footballguy
It's a way to deflect genuine criticism on poor writing and plot choices by saying "it's for kids you big manbaby."
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I get what you are saying here, and I loved that my son got into Star Wars about 8 years ago. He feel in love because of the originals.
I am getting old- what my push back is against movies that are just being made for this purpose, and not to bring something new to the table.
I guess I dont agree as much with peoples excitement to just see shiny versions of old movies. My kids love a lot of movies I grew up with.
Last edited by a moderator:
