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Australia has had months of little to no community spread and even then it was confined to one state. By and large Australians are running around doing the right thing, sport was and is still hap

This is going to be a one off post because I don't want to get trolled or banned but if I were American, the context of Canada would be the biggest damning fact of how things have been handled in the

I am confident we are going to hit >750K deaths.  I think it might be a million.  I don't post a ton but I'm an ER doc in a big city. This is by far the worse I've seen since the pandemic star

9 hours ago, zDragon said:

If  you think you would then good for you.  I still don't think you have an inkling of everything that is going on behind the scenes to get it all done.

Who would you replace Fauci with?

No one.  I'd listen to him better than Trump has, along with other experts.

You realize that for him to have been promoting "packed churches" for easter, he could not have been listening closely to Fauci right? 

The only thing that's caused him to back away from his own personal view of what needed to be done was Fauci, and others, interventions.  There was no reason for him to promote "packed churches" as part of any plan if he was in consultation with experts.

Sure, yes, he was finally won over in spite of his own views...but good lord the man has to get out of the way in order to do what's right.  He's focused on ratings.  He's focused on his political prospects and how damaging this could be to him.  Get his ego out of the way...that's IMPOSSIBLE for him.  How a given outcome affects HIM is always at the core of how he approaches a situation. Fauci likely has to explain how millions of deaths would be worse for TRUMP than to extend the time period.

With me, you wouldn't have such a ridiculous barrier to overcome.  Plus, I have a background in sciences, with a masters degree to boot, and I don't have an aversion to experts.  I assimilate information reasonably well, and have management experience where I know how to delegate.

Again, I'm not portraying myself as a perfect president, or politician. I'd be terrible at most of the aspects of the job.  But in this one specific area, I'd be many times better than Trump as would MANY people who aren't narcissistic sociopaths who also happen to be chronic liars.

Edited by adonis
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15 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Something else that really needs to be taken up - single-payer healthcare, that is not tied to employment.

As we see millions of people losing jobs in the midst of a pandemic, you immediately see the problem.  We should, at a minimum, learn from this.  We have to figure out a new paradigm moving forward - the old economy, is not capable of sustaining the country in the new world (even pre-pandemic).

Not tying it to employment is a big thing.  Singapore doesn't really have a single-payer, but has done well in this crisis too.  Not sure their system would work here.

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has this been discussed, I missed it on Friday.  I know this thread moves quickly.  https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/28/21197995/coronavirus-stimulus-trump-inspector-general-wont-comply

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The special inspector general, as authorized within the bill, would be able to request information from government agencies and report on failures to comply with those information requests. In his signing statement, Trump essentially stated that he will not let such reports reach Congress without his approval, which many fear directly undermines the provision’s goal of maintaining transparency in how that fund is handled.

 

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5 minutes ago, formerfourdigit said:

has this been discussed, I missed it on Friday.  I know this thread moves quickly.  https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/28/21197995/coronavirus-stimulus-trump-inspector-general-wont-comply

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The special inspector general, as authorized within the bill, would be able to request information from government agencies and report on failures to comply with those information requests. In his signing statement, Trump essentially stated that he will not let such reports reach Congress without his approval, which many fear directly undermines the provision’s goal of maintaining transparency in how that fund is handled.

I think it was raised, but I'll say this - I'm glad the office will still exist. We can deal with getting the information and detail later. The last time Trump tried this he got impeached. 

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27 minutes ago, KPD said:

I think they are doing the best they can without clear guidance or support from the federal government.  I mean it's good that California got some ventilators from the stockpile, even if they were all broken and non functional.

I think the President talking crap about governors is counter-productive to getting residents in those states to listen to their state government officials.  A large (and arguably most important) piece to responding to this requires the public to listen and follow guidance about social distancing.  No matter what the feds actually do in terms of sending support, if the President is telling his supporters in those states that he doesn't like the governor and he regrets having to give them resources it seriously undermines any message or guidance those governors are giving to a large chunk of their citizens.

The guidance from the government is that you know your State and citizens the best.  Trump mentioned a three State quarantine and Gov. Cuomo said it was not "legal" and amounted to  a "declaration of war" on the States.   I can't imagine the push-back on doing a national quarantine.  I will also tell you about the leadership here in Pennsylvania.  Last August in Philadelphia we lost Hahnemann Hospital.  Neither the City nor the State did anything to prevent the closing of the hospital.  Hundreds of doctors, nurses and medical support staff have been displaced and/or moved to different areas.  This past week the City tried to get the owner of the building to reopen it as an overflow facility and those negotiations failed.  If there is a shortage of beds, medical staff or equipment here, I have a hard time blaming that on the Federal Government.  State and local governments can't spend years debilitating their medical capabilities and then blame the Federal Government when they need those same capabilities.  The Federal Government should not have to provide a bulk of the medical capabilities, they should be there to support and fill in the gaps where needed.  But so far what we're seeing in New York is the gap is the size of the Grand Canyon.  That's the failure of the State and Local governments and I'm pretty sure with the awful leadership we have here in Pennsylvania, we're going to be in trouble in about 2 or 3 weeks.   

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3 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

Trump mentioned a three State quarantine and Gov. Cuomo said it was not "legal" and amounted to  a "declaration of war" on the States.   I can't imagine the push-back on doing a national quarantine.

It's funny, one thing Cuomo pointed out is that Trump used the word "quarantine" when in fact it was not a quarantine, it was a proposed lockdown, which is different. A quarantine would mean essentially a shelter in place order. Just 1 reason among many about how bad this was.

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12 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

The guidance from the government is that you know your State and citizens the best.  Trump mentioned a three State quarantine and Gov. Cuomo said it was not "legal" and amounted to  a "declaration of war" on the States.   I can't imagine the push-back on doing a national quarantine.  I will also tell you about the leadership here in Pennsylvania.  Last August in Philadelphia we lost Hahnemann Hospital.  Neither the City nor the State did anything to prevent the closing of the hospital.  Hundreds of doctors, nurses and medical support staff have been displaced and/or moved to different areas.  This past week the City tried to get the owner of the building to reopen it as an overflow facility and those negotiations failed.  If there is a shortage of beds, medical staff or equipment here, I have a hard time blaming that on the Federal Government.  State and local governments can't spend years debilitating their medical capabilities and then blame the Federal Government when they need those same capabilities.  The Federal Government should not have to provide a bulk of the medical capabilities, they should be there to support and fill in the gaps where needed.  But so far what we're seeing in New York is the gap is the size of the Grand Canyon.  That's the failure of the State and Local governments and I'm pretty sure with the awful leadership we have here in Pennsylvania, we're going to be in trouble in about 2 or 3 weeks.   

Why is it a failure of government that we don't have enough medical facilities?  Government doesn't run healthcare in this country.  Maybe we are finding out that trusting for profit companies to provide healthcare is a mistake.

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19 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

I will also tell you about the leadership here in Pennsylvania.  Last August in Philadelphia we lost Hahnemann Hospital.  Neither the City nor the State did anything to prevent the closing of the hospital.  Hundreds of doctors, nurses and medical support staff have been displaced and/or moved to different areas.  This past week the City tried to get the owner of the building to reopen it as an overflow facility and those negotiations failed.  If there is a shortage of beds, medical staff or equipment here, I have a hard time blaming that on the Federal Government.  State and local governments can't spend years debilitating their medical capabilities and then blame the Federal Government when they need those same capabilities.  The Federal Government should not have to provide a bulk of the medical capabilities, they should be there to support and fill in the gaps where needed.  But so far what we're seeing in New York is the gap is the size of the Grand Canyon.  That's the failure of the State and Local governments and I'm pretty sure with the awful leadership we have here in Pennsylvania, we're going to be in trouble in about 2 or 3 weeks.   

After Katrina there developed this argument here about (what else) who was to "blame". One major argument centered around the local levee boards - notoriously corrupt do-nothing entities, and at one point the Orleans levee board & SWB had ordered a dredging of the 17th Street Canal, and in addition they had not been maintaining the levees (things like keeping tree stumps and debris out of them that kind of thing). Meanwhile the Feds for years had apparently been underdesigning and underbuilding per design the levees themselves. Back and forth it went, back and forth it went, these arguments. - You'll never guess what the truth was: all the entities had failed.

I see so many similarities here, I can almost see it in slow motion. And we have made major mistakes here with our local health system. I won't get into the details. We the people just know that our fellow citizens are suffering and dying unnecessarily. I can also tell you that the outcome of all this when we do get to the other side of this will be some very pissed off voters.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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3 minutes ago, KPD said:

Why is it a failure of government that we don't have enough medical facilities?  Government doesn't run healthcare in this country.  Maybe we are finding out that trusting for profit companies to provide healthcare is a mistake.

Maybe, and work with me here, providing for the health of a nation is not best left in the hands of someone whose prime motivation is making money.

 

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6 minutes ago, KPD said:

Why is it a failure of government that we don't have enough medical facilities?  Government doesn't run healthcare in this country.  Maybe we are finding out that trusting for profit companies to provide healthcare is a mistake.

Because they are privately owned but can receive State funding (see, Temple University Health System here in Philly). 

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47 minutes ago, adonis said:

No one.  I'd listen to him better than Trump has, along with other experts.

You realize that for him to have been promoting "packed churches" for easter, he could not have been listening closely to Fauci right? 

The only thing that's caused him to back away from his own personal view of what needed to be done was Fauci, and others, interventions.  There was no reason for him to promote "packed churches" as part of any plan if he was in consultation with experts.

Sure, yes, he was finally won over in spite of his own views...but good lord the man has to get out of the way in order to do what's right.  He's focused on ratings.  He's focused on his political prospects and how damaging this could be to him.  Get his ego out of the way...that's IMPOSSIBLE for him.  How a given outcome affects HIM is always at the core of how he approaches a situation. Fauci likely has to explain how millions of deaths would be worse for TRUMP than to extend the time period.

With me, you wouldn't have such a ridiculous barrier to overcome.  Plus, I have a background in sciences, with a masters degree to boot, and I don't have an aversion to experts.  I assimilate information reasonably well, and have management experience where I know how to delegate.

Again, I'm not portraying myself as a perfect president, or politician. I'd be terrible at most of the aspects of the job.  But in this one specific area, I'd be many times better than Trump as would MANY people who aren't narcissistic sociopaths who also happen to be chronic liars.

Id opine based on history that it was even less Fauci and more public backlash.  How often has he floated these little things and gotten massive backlash and backed off of them?  Things that any expert would have told him was a bad idea but he says it anyway?  And Im talking even before Covid.

 

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1 hour ago, formerfourdigit said:

Re chlorinique... All my Trump loving friends here in Michigan are convinced that this drug is "proven to save lives".  The Michigan governor wrote a letter to pharmacists that basically told them not to horde it or fill any suspicious prescriptions and it's been nothing but attacks on her from the right wingers who think democrats are banning this drug and "need to be held accountable".  "Michigan man recovers from COVID-19 using Hydrocholorinique and UNLOADS on Governor" was the latest thing that came across my timeline last night.  I don't know what to do with these people any more.  They are staying home at least, from what I can tell.

Guy I used to work with is a hard core trumper and posted on linked in about how it was 100% effective treatment and couldn’t believe our governor was denying access 

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1 hour ago, Daywalker said:

IIHC he also accused New York hospitals of stealing equipment.  “Out the back door.”

This is one of the many moments that he accuses someone of something he would do, were he in their position.

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36 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

The guidance from the government is that you know your State and citizens the best.  Trump mentioned a three State quarantine and Gov. Cuomo said it was not "legal" and amounted to  a "declaration of war" on the States.   I can't imagine the push-back on doing a national quarantine.  I will also tell you about the leadership here in Pennsylvania.  Last August in Philadelphia we lost Hahnemann Hospital.  Neither the City nor the State did anything to prevent the closing of the hospital.  Hundreds of doctors, nurses and medical support staff have been displaced and/or moved to different areas.  This past week the City tried to get the owner of the building to reopen it as an overflow facility and those negotiations failed.  If there is a shortage of beds, medical staff or equipment here, I have a hard time blaming that on the Federal Government.  State and local governments can't spend years debilitating their medical capabilities and then blame the Federal Government when they need those same capabilities.  The Federal Government should not have to provide a bulk of the medical capabilities, they should be there to support and fill in the gaps where needed.  But so far what we're seeing in New York is the gap is the size of the Grand Canyon.  That's the failure of the State and Local governments and I'm pretty sure with the awful leadership we have here in Pennsylvania, we're going to be in trouble in about 2 or 3 weeks.   

All things considered I think PA Gov has done just about as good as they can.  But I live in rural PA.  Things are much different in Philly I can imagine.

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18 minutes ago, CentralPA said:

All things considered I think PA Gov has done just about as good as they can.  But I live in rural PA.  Things are much different in Philly I can imagine.

Word from the front line workers is that things are starting to get bad now and it is expected to get exponentially worse in the coming weeks.  We're probably a couple weeks behind New York.  Large metropolitan areas are going to be hit hard. 

EDIT:  My wife's hospital just went into a Code White.  Basically they can't end their shift until they are given the ok by their department manager or the hospitals command center.  After their shift, if needed, the manager may have them perform other non-specialized duties.  All on-call staff has been called in and all on-duty staff may be required to remain at the hospital to ensure continued patient care.  Basically, after a nurse/dr/assistants shift, if they don't have enough staff to replace them, they have to remain on duty or even perform duties that they normally wouldn't.

Edited by Snotbubbles
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46 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:
53 minutes ago, KPD said:

Why is it a failure of government that we don't have enough medical facilities?  Government doesn't run healthcare in this country.  Maybe we are finding out that trusting for profit companies to provide healthcare is a mistake.

Because they are privately owned but can receive State funding (see, Temple University Health System here in Philly). 

Not sure I follow this response as it pertains to the question.  So before I go down this path, when you say "receive State funding" are you referring to grants?  If not, are their "strings attached" where the government specifies limited uses for the money?  I have a couple thoughts on this as my wife has worked with these large research hospitals for years and we were talking about this last night, but want to make sure we're on the same page first.

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26 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

Word from the front line workers is that things are starting to get bad now and it is expected to get exponentially worse in the coming weeks.  We're probably a couple weeks behind New York.  Large metropolitan areas are going to be hit hard. 

EDIT:  My wife's hospital just went into a Code White.  Basically they can't end their shift until they are given the ok by their department manager or the hospitals command center.  After their shift, if needed, the manager may have them perform other non-specialized duties.  All on-call staff has been called in and all on-duty staff may be required to remain at the hospital to ensure continued patient care.  Basically, after a nurse/dr/assistants shift, if they don't have enough staff to replace them, they have to remain on duty or even perform duties that they normally wouldn't.

wow, that sounds awful.  Thank you to your wife, can't imagine what that must be like.

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3 hours ago, Snotbubbles said:

You keep trying to change what I said into a different analysis.  I never said anything about per capita.  If you want to have that debate, we can after the fact.  At this point, each country is in a different phase of the cycle.  When all the countries have cycled out of the first phase we can have a more relevant per capita discussion about the effects of the first phase of this virus.

Best wishes to your friend.

Apologies...I'm not trying to change what you said.  I'm saying what you said isn't all that meaningful without the context.  That's all.  It means little to look at a raw number without the context of the population when determining "success".  You seemed to suggest in your very initial post that I replied to that the US was "better" at the testing and it meant something meaningful that we had tested the "most" (though we hadn't) because 400K > 300K.  If that's not what you were saying, I misunderstood and now wonder what point you were attempting to make.

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9 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Not sure I follow this response as it pertains to the question.  So before I go down this path, when you say "receive State funding" are you referring to grants?  If not, are their "strings attached" where the government specifies limited uses for the money?  I have a couple thoughts on this as my wife has worked with these large research hospitals for years and we were talking about this last night, but want to make sure we're on the same page first.

Here is an article that gives a high level overview of the Temple Health Systems:

https://www.inquirer.com/business/penn-jefferson-temple-health-restructuring-fox-chase-financial-straits-20190309.html

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7 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Apologies...I'm not trying to change what you said.  I'm saying what you said isn't all that meaningful without the context.  That's all.  It means little to look at a raw number without the context of the population when determining "success".  You seemed to suggest in your very initial post that I replied to that the US was "better" at the testing and it meant something meaningful that we had tested the "most" (though we hadn't) because 400K > 300K.  If that's not what you were saying, I misunderstood and now wonder what point you were attempting to make.

TBH I don't really know what I was replying to at the time.  I don't disagree that per capita will be a better judge.  We just can't do it now because of the reasons already stated. 

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1 minute ago, Snotbubbles said:

TBH I don't really know what I was replying to at the time.  I don't disagree that per capita will be a better judge.  We just can't do it now because of the reasons already stated. 

Sure we can....we just have to understand that when looking at the numbers we understand that different countries are at different points.  It's meaningful with context.  What isn't meaningful is raw numbers with no context.  For example, Friday, it was meaningful that the US had tested about 400-500K people total while Germany was testing 500K a week.  It helps us assess where we're at in handling this.  Reading what your wife is going through, it would help her understand where she's at and when they can start looking for the light at the end of the tunnel.

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7 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

Here is an article that gives a high level overview of the Temple Health Systems:

https://www.inquirer.com/business/penn-jefferson-temple-health-restructuring-fox-chase-financial-straits-20190309.html

I guess this is what I get for jumping into a discussion mid discussion....I'll bow out.  I don't see how any of this has anything to do with blaming the governments for decisions the private companies make with respect to how they spend the money that government gives them.  Unless there are strings attached (which is why I asked my questions above) it makes no sense to me.

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1 minute ago, The Commish said:

Sure we can....we just have to understand that when looking at the numbers we understand that different countries are at different points.  It's meaningful with context.  What isn't meaningful is raw numbers with no context.  For example, Friday, it was meaningful that the US had tested about 400-500K people total while Germany was testing 500K a week.  It helps us assess where we're at in handling this.  Reading what your wife is going through, it would help her understand where she's at and when they can start looking for the light at the end of the tunnel.

We are at the beginning here.  Right now she is attending patients and finding out 3 days later that they were positive for COVID19.  They're required to wear masks and goggles to protect them.  These Abbott test should hopefully help keep a larger portion of the front-line workers from contracting this all at once.  They are triaging outside in temporary tents so if they can isolate the COVID patients before they make their way into the ER then it should help prevent the spread to the workers (well, not the ones who have to treat the positives).

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Hahnemann Hospital was an exceptionally crappy for-profit hospital, that’s why it went under.

Are we blaming local government for anyone who goes out of business now?

No. So hospitals shouldn’t be any different.

Just another strike against the idea that healthcare should be a for-profit business.

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CNN Health: Pharmaceutical giant Johnson & Johnson announced on Monday that it plans to initiate human clinical trials of its Covid-19 vaccine candidate by September, and anticipates the first batches of the vaccine could be available for emergency use by early next year.

Tapper

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4 hours ago, zftcg said:

FTFY.

And yes, the idea that our president is such a raging narcissist that, on a day where 500 Americans died, he would be bragging about TV ratings infuriates me. I think the more relevant question is, why doesn't it infuriate you?

Hey @tonydead, I posted about the deaths of 500 Americans and your reaction was to laugh? I guess we just have different senses of humor.

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Where All The Money In The $2 Trillion Coronavirus Stimulus Bill Is Going, Visualized

I think this article goes here. Haven't checked but according to the article  $560 millions went to individuals, $500 millions goes to big corporations. The stimulus bill was sold as way to help regular people get through the recession but only 1/4 of it went to individuals. 

Edited by cloppbeast
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4 hours ago, Snotbubbles said:

So are you're saying is that State and Local governments are incapable of doing their jobs?  

No.  Local governments are fully capable and have been doing most of the heavy lifting without meaningful federal, and, in many cases, State support, but the feds can play a very important role..

The federal government is responsible for coordinating a nationwide response, but Trump eliminated the Department responsible for that.  So we now have Pence and Jared in charge and frankly, what do they know about anything related to a pandemic?  Issuing guidelines would've been helpful back in January - as well as recommended shelter in place orders, which must address a myriad of issues that are not contained in that silly pamphlet.  So would stepped up production and distribution of PPE and ventilators in anticipation of a crush of patients with breathing problems.  Without any stepped up production and distribution under the War Powers Act (local authorities do not possess anything close to this power), local jurisdictions and hospitals are engaged in price wars over scarce PPE and medical equipment and are at the mercy of the free market, making actual deliverables a crapshoot.  Widely available testing in the early days of the pandemic would've been helpful to limit community spread and identify areas where the distribution of resources could have been targeted, but the CDC was slow and unwilling to act.  When tests were available, it would've been nice if they had worked or could've been turned around in less than a week, as would development and streamlined approval of new tests by the federal agencies charged with that responsibility.  Any benefits of a coordinated early response went out the window about a month ago.      

At the very least, the federal government could've put forth messaging about what was coming instead of denying the science and alleging a conspiracy against Trump.  This should've been happening in January.  Instead of providing truthful information and alerting the American people of the severity of the pandemic, Trump has sown doubt, denied a problem, and minimized its threat.  Claims that the virus was a liberal hoax, that it would just "disappear", and declaring that it would be "done by Easter" have all undermined local efforts to control spread.  Why listen to your local leaders when Trump says it's almost over?  You may think this bad messaging and outright lying is just Trump being Trump, but his falsehoods and denials have had a real impact on community acceptance and compliance at the local level.  Today they are STILL downplaying the pandemic threat - Last night Trump said to expect 100,000 deaths in the USA, and this morning, his medical expert says we will see 200,000 deaths "if we do things perfectly".  Other estimates have claimed US deaths will top 1 million.  For cripes sake, just give us the truth so we can do our jobs.    

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10 minutes ago, cloppbeast said:

Where All The Money In The $2 Trillion Coronavirus Stimulus Bill Is Going, Visualized

I think this article goes here. Haven't checked but according to the article  $560 millions went to individuals, $500 millions goes to big corporations. The stimulus bill was sold as way to help regular people get through the recession but only 1/4 of it went to individuals. 

The $500 million is mostly targeted to airlines to ensure they keep their employees employed.  $350 will be forgivable loans to small businesses.  The rest is targeted to hospitals as well as state and local governments.  Seems like a good balance with the stuff targeted to large businesses will need to be paid back.  

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18 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

The $500 million is mostly targeted to airlines to ensure they keep their employees employed.  $350 will be forgivable loans to small businesses.  The rest is targeted to hospitals as well as state and local governments.  Seems like a good balance with the stuff targeted to large businesses will need to be paid back.  

I agree. Would have preferred to see some more restrictions on the corporate money to ensure it is used in ways that benefit the economy as a whole, but on balance I think this law will do a lot of good.

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22 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

The $500 million is mostly targeted to airlines to ensure they keep their employees employed.  $350 will be forgivable loans to small businesses.  The rest is targeted to hospitals as well as state and local governments.  Seems like a good balance with the stuff targeted to large businesses will need to be paid back.  

Agree.  People need jobs to go back to.

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41 minutes ago, cloppbeast said:

Where All The Money In The $2 Trillion Coronavirus Stimulus Bill Is Going, Visualized

I think this article goes here. Haven't checked but according to the article  $560 millions went to individuals, $500 millions goes to big corporations. The stimulus bill was sold as way to help regular people get through the recession but only 1/4 of it went to individuals. 

The small business money should help people stay employed.  The corporate money should do the same.  I don’t know what the limitations are though.

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In terms of government response, let’s talk about something positive for once: 

This ship, the  Comfort, is simply an amazing piece of human invention and technology. 1,000 hospital beds, operating rooms, nursing rooms, radiology, completely self-sufficient, 1,200 superb doctors and nurses and crew. It will be used in New York to treat NON coronavirus patients only so as to alleviate the burden. Amazing and phenomenal.

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