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Government Response To The Coronavirus


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Australia has had months of little to no community spread and even then it was confined to one state. By and large Australians are running around doing the right thing, sport was and is still hap

This is going to be a one off post because I don't want to get trolled or banned but if I were American, the context of Canada would be the biggest damning fact of how things have been handled in the

I am confident we are going to hit >750K deaths.  I think it might be a million.  I don't post a ton but I'm an ER doc in a big city. This is by far the worse I've seen since the pandemic star

2 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

I just said I would.   I mean it's RIGHT IN THE POST!!!  I'm somebody aren't I?

You have repeatedly called into question the need for shutdowns. I find it unlikely that you would love to be locked in your house for a few months.

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Just now, Sinn Fein said:

Right but your argument is "the dangers are too speculative to warrant any intervention"

I am suggesting that the actual dangers are known and real, and we would benefit more if people were willing to put others in front of their own needs/wants/desires - even if that came from government intervention.

 

That so many people think their own needs outweigh the collective - is disturbing, and sad.  We have missed so many windows where we could have acted aggressively to limit the damages - and every time "FREEDOM" won out over long-term safety.

I guess I will clarify if I was unclear.   Shutting down the country is impossible.   I reread my posts and I'm pretty sure that's what I said, but there is my clarification.

Again, we can wish for things forever, doesn't change what is actually real.  if I had a wish I would wish covid never existed, but I won't get  my wish.

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1 hour ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

I'm not risking your health if you aren't in the gym.  

Well 5 of my hospital coworkers are already dead from taking care of people like you including two I worked with in the ER for 20 years so maybe some of us are just a little sensitive to your selfish arguments 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:

It just seems weird when people label the things other countries have done successfully as unrealistic. Japan has 120 million people. They’ve lost less in the entire pandemic than we’re losing in a day right now. 

I'm sorry that seems weird to you. But locking down all 50 states, not allowing any travel between them.  Entirely closing our borders 100% to anyone--for any reason. 

In America, is unrealistic.  

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Do you think that is how lockdowns have been enforced elsewhere?  What those nations have done is ask people to stay home and addressed the economic costs of making the request. They haven’t gotten 100% compliance, but they have made it so far fewer people had to face the choice between compliance and feeding their families. 
 

Paying people to stay home or industries to stay closed is not only feasible. It’s the most economically rational and efficient solution. It’s the textbook justification for a direct stimulus. 

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7 minutes ago, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:

Do you think that is how lockdowns have been enforced elsewhere?  What those nations have done is ask people to stay home and addressed the economic costs of making the request. They haven’t gotten 100% compliance, but they have made it so far fewer people had to face the choice between compliance and feeding their families. 
 

Paying people to stay home or industries to stay closed is not only feasible. It’s the most economically rational and efficient solution. It’s the textbook justification for a direct stimulus. 

Unfortunately it's about 10000X more complicated with that.  

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58 minutes ago, the moops said:

What if this pandemic was 50 times worse than it is right now? there has gotta be some level of unchecked death and sickness where you would want the government to step in to save ourselves, right?

This is the part I dont get.  How many dead until people really start to worry?  Its not 300k.  What about 3mil?  Maybe 30mil?  Geez

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1 hour ago, The Z Machine said:

Activate the National Guard in each state and shut down interstate travel at the borders and between large metro areas.  I guarantee that there are already written up plans to do such a thing, and those date to well before the pandemic.

To be fair, this probably isn't very compelling to those who need to be convinced.  They are the same group that think their stockpile of hand guns and rifles is a match for the US military...it's just an alternate world some are living in.

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42 minutes ago, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:

It just seems weird when people label the things other countries have done successfully as unrealistic. Japan has 120 million people. They’ve lost less in the entire pandemic than we’re losing in a day right now. 

Not really. Japan is a very homogenous country with a strong sense of group and national identity. Not an autocracy per se but historically conformist and hierarchical. Also an island country that can more easily close off borders. Mask-wearing in public places when sick has been done for decades.

Pretty much polar opposite of U.S in many ways that influence the pandemic response....

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6 minutes ago, JAA said:

This is the part I dont get.  How many dead until people really start to worry?  Its not 300k.  What about 3mil?  Maybe 30mil?  Geez

One? two?  Twenty?  A hundred? 

If you say no to any of those, then you don't care about human life.  See how that argument goes? 

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1 minute ago, Stoneworker said:

Not really. Japan is a very homogenous country with a strong sense of group and national identity. Not an autocracy per se but historically conformist and hierarchical. Also an island country that can more easily close off borders. Mask-wearing in public places when sick has been done for decades.

Pretty much polar opposite of U.S in many ways that influence the pandemic response....

Here is the problem though. No matter what country is brought up, there is always a 'well, the US is different in XYZ terms, therefore we could never pull that off here". We never even gave it the old college try though. It is shameful

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50 minutes ago, Stoneworker said:

I'm just happy WWII was fought by the Greatest Generation.

Given our collective response to the pandemic, there's no way we could have won it with the current one(s).

“Attention! Listen up men, we are in the process of negotiating a 15 minute ceasefire with the enemy to check Twitter.”

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Just now, the moops said:

Here is the problem though. No matter what country is brought up, there is always a 'well, the US is different in XYZ terms, therefore we could never pull that off here". We never even gave it the old college try though. It is shameful

Maybe we didn't try cause smarter people knew it would be a waste of time and we should focus our resources on other things?  

Just a thought

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4 minutes ago, the moops said:

Here is the problem though. No matter what country is brought up, there is always a 'well, the US is different in XYZ terms, therefore we could never pull that off here". We never even gave it the old college try though. It is shameful

It wasn't an excuse for the U.S.'s poor response...and I never said "we could never pull it off here." We've done bigger things in the past.

I was offering fact-based rationale for factors that have contributed to Japan's relative success. If we understand and analyze those factors and contrast them to our own cultural characteristics (e.g. celebrating individual freedoms, right to choose, diversity, etc.) we could better understand what's going wrong and hopefully improve our collective response.

Even now it's not too late.

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1 hour ago, Stoneworker said:

I'm just happy WWII was fought by the Greatest Generation.

Given our collective response to the pandemic, there's no way we could have won it with the current one(s).

I’m also glad because I’m not sure which side we would have been on.

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16 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Maybe we didn't try cause smarter people knew it would be a waste of time and we should focus our resources on other things?  

Just a thought

Well, we have a terrible death rate, terrible unemployment, and a fractured populace. Seems as though doing something would have been better

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1 hour ago, Stoneworker said:

I'm just happy WWII was fought by the Greatest Generation.

Given our collective response to the pandemic, there's no way we could have won it with the current one(s).

Won it? I'm not even certain which side we would have been on. 

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1 hour ago, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:

I ran into an anti-masker at Target who called me a sheep. But his tune changed when I invited him to join me in taking off our pants “for freedom.”  We all accept that restraint on our liberty in the name of sanitation or just that we don’t want to see one another’s junk. 

:lmao:

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Posted this in a different thread, should have put it here.

I watched a zoom presentation today (was internal for my hospital and 1 other) and one of the slides in the presentation showed 1 dose will give about 52% efficacy...but both doses are about 94%.   So while 1 helps, get both.

Also, there was talk on making the presentation public (really well done by the head of the ID department) and if it is I will post it here.  Warning though, it was an hour long.

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4 hours ago, timschochet said:

Of course you are. You have a much higher chance of getting COVID and spreading COVID and if people around you get sick it fills up the hospital beds which means that if I get sick I don’t have the same level of care, not to mention my doctor who is exhausted having to treat all the people who behaved stupidly like you chose to  if you go to the gym. 

I can’t believe that I even have to explain this. 

Don’t go anywhere and you won’t get sick. Like you’re asking me to do

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57 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Don’t go anywhere and you won’t get sick. Like you’re asking me to do

I don't think heart attacks and aneurisms are location specific or lower probability when not around others. Similarly for all other kinds of ailments that don't have anything to do with exposure to other people but could require a trip to the hospital.

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Some recent ramblings in these threads got me thinking and then searching on google.  Wanted to see if there was anyone looking at the political leanings and success/failure of combating the virus...turns out people are.  A decent read if you care to look at it.  Probably could use a thread of it's own, but I'll stick it here for now.  

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1 hour ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Don’t go anywhere and you won’t get sick. Like you’re asking me to do

I’m asking you to avoid congregating inside with a lot of people you don’t know for the time being. And I’m asking you to wear a mask when you go out. I don’t understand why these things are such an imposition. Please help protect your community. 

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7 hours ago, supermike80 said:

I respect that.Thing is, there are a lot of people like me and a lot of people like you and THAT'S why shutting everything down like Australia did, ain't gonna happen here.  It's an unrealizable dream. 

Sorry

I already work from home, I choose to go out to eat for lunch every day.  I eat off in a corner to myself our outside where I can.  When I go out I wear a mask, make sure I keep my distance.  Staying holed up in the house just isn't for me.  So far so good, but I realize the risks.  It appears that the majority of cases come from private gatherings, that's not to say there's zero risk in what I'm doing.  But to your point, I fall in the category you describe.

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

Some recent ramblings in these threads got me thinking and then searching on google.  Wanted to see if there was anyone looking at the political leanings and success/failure of combating the virus...turns out people are.  A decent read if you care to look at it.  Probably could use a thread of it's own, but I'll stick it here for now.  

Man, are you saying that the POTUS and his merry band of propagandists contributed to the spread of a deadly pandemic? Or are you suggesting that Republicans are less likely to heed the warnings and recommendations of experts? 

Or is it both...

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7 hours ago, supermike80 said:

I'm not saying there isn't a plan somewhere, I'm saying it would be utterly impossible to implement. 

So we do have the capability but can't do it because "it would be impossible to implement." 

Impossible how?  Would people take up arms against the National Guard? Would the National Guard refuse to carry out their orders?  Would those orders be unlawful and go against the US Constitution or state constitutions?

If none of those, then it really is a limitation of political will. 

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7 hours ago, supermike80 said:

I utterly disagree.  But that's cool. You would literally have rioting in the streets. 

I don't want to live in a country that can force this kind of thing.   

You already do.  State public health police powers are wide ranging duringa public health emergency, including the forcible quarantine of the populace.  Now this obviously depends on your state and municipality.

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8 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

So we do have the capability but can't do it because "it would be impossible to implement." 

Impossible how?  Would people take up arms against the National Guard? Would the National Guard refuse to carry out their orders?  Would those orders be unlawful and go against the US Constitution or state constitutions?

If none of those, then it really is a limitation of political will. 

No. Thats not the only determining things.  Sigh.  

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17 hours ago, JAA said:

This is the part I dont get.  How many dead until people really start to worry?  Its not 300k.  What about 3mil?  Maybe 30mil?  Geez

300k x 50 = 15 million, before some would revisit their valuation of human life. Really grim when you consider we’ve diagnosed just under 17 million.

Edited by Terminalxylem
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11 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

Man, are you saying that the POTUS and his merry band of propagandists contributed to the spread of a deadly pandemic? Or are you suggesting that Republicans are less likely to heed the warnings and recommendations of experts? 

Or is it both...

Honestly?  Not really saying either.  The "why" in these numbers could be investigated but I don't see the point prior to understanding the problem and acknowledging it exists....baby steps.

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3 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Honestly?  Not really saying either.  The "why" in these numbers could be investigated but I don't see the point prior to understanding the problem and acknowledging it exists....baby steps.

Yeah, I know you didn't comment on the root cause of the discrepancy in the behavior of Republicans vs. Democrats during the pandemic.  Just thought I'd inject my thoughts on potential root causes.

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1 hour ago, The Z Machine said:

Yeah, I know you didn't comment on the root cause of the discrepancy in the behavior of Republicans vs. Democrats during the pandemic.  Just thought I'd inject my thoughts on potential root causes.

Personally, it's my belief that the "side" concept is a rather large part of this.  Yes, there are people in this country who were NEVER going to do what was necessary, but I also believe there is a rather large group of people who aren't doing what's necessary because their "side" says it isn't necessary or because the opposite "side" says it IS necessary.  It's dumb all around.  I mean, I have a Governor telling people that "one dose of the vaccine is better than nothing" which is technically true, but it gives basically a 50% chance of not getting the virus.  My odds are better if I mask up and stay away from people.  It's madness.

Edited by The Commish
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1 minute ago, The Commish said:

there is a rather large group of people who aren't doing what's necessary because their "side" says it isn't necessary or because the opposite "side" says it IS necessary.  It's dumb all around.

Maybe they should listen to subject matter experts and not talking heads on TV or FB memes. 

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1 hour ago, The Z Machine said:

Maybe they should listen to subject matter experts and not talking heads on TV or FB memes. 

I don't disagree.  However, we have to realize our positions and our inability to change the mind of another depending on their perception of us.  I think it's absolutely irresponsible for people who KNOW they can have a HUGE influence with altering behavior to not act.  Reality is, some people will listen to TV personalities over science.  It's messed up, but it is what it is.  I know the general public is relying on being spoon fed info from their favorite sources.  Those sources need to be responsible in getting information out to them.

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Me: "We should speed up the vaccination process by allowing consenting adults to get vaccinated after we've demonstrated safety -- efficacy findings can wait."

PSF People: "That's a terrible idea.  How can you even propose such a thing?  Also, we should deploy the military to shut down all interstate travel in the US."

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19 hours ago, Bogeys said:

Posted this in a different thread, should have put it here.

I watched a zoom presentation today (was internal for my hospital and 1 other) and one of the slides in the presentation showed 1 dose will give about 52% efficacy...but both doses are about 94%.   So while 1 helps, get both.

Also, there was talk on making the presentation public (really well done by the head of the ID department) and if it is I will post it here.  Warning though, it was an hour long.

Link to talk

Here is the talk, think it can be seen but if someone would check that would be great.  Not sure if it is auto logging me in or not.

Edited by Bogeys
ETA: Fast forward a few minutes
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19 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Thought it was funny how she made sure to point out she is native american.

I think I have the right woman based on background and the Bios, but seems like she might be trying harder these days to identify with the native roots.

2017

2020

 

Don't know for sure on the first link (think so), but that is her in the second.

These talks are normally informal and it is to bring other Drs and RNs up to speed in the areas of expertise of the presenters, so might be an inside joke there I am not aware of with her roots.

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28 minutes ago, shader said:

Journalists asking why Trump isn't going to immediately take the vaccine.  Why on earth would he need to take the vaccine?  Do people even understand science?  If you've had covid-19, why would you want to take a vaccine?  

Because that's the recommendation.  I've had it and will be getting the vaccine.

Here's a link with some information on it.

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1 hour ago, shader said:

Journalists asking why Trump isn't going to immediately take the vaccine.  Why on earth would he need to take the vaccine?  Do people even understand science?  If you've had covid-19, why would you want to take a vaccine?  

Also, it's just good optics for leaders to get vaccinated.

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