parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Nobody will be able to prove it to you. You will just say it doesnt meet your threshold.
But anybody that watches this and doesnt logically conclude that china and the WHO are in bed together has their head in the sand.
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Government Response To The Coronavirus (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter James Daulton
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But anybody that watches this and doesnt logically conclude that china and the WHO are in bed together has their head in the sand.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Maybe that topic was a agreed upon to be off limits during the interview and the journalist sprung it on him?
Regardless, the Taiwanese thing is super problematic on a lot of levels for public facing officials.
In my job in work closely with colleagues in both China and Taiwan. You know what never comes up? The status of Taiwan.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
They weren't creating a cover story.The General said:
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I would think that they would know if the lab was studying this particular virus prior to the outbreak - which would pretty much mean to me leak with very few scenarios I can imagine where this would still be false. But I can imagine (maybe crazily) scenarios where it was a leak of a precursor virus that was the actual cause of the first cases where the leak was more indirect.
(No - I have no desire to create conspiracy theories to defend China, or to defend China at all. Hopefully that is not what this sounds like.)
The General
Footballguy
That’s the implication if this lab created theory is accurate thought, correct?
China knows what happened doesn’t want to take blame, they cover it up, they control the WHO, etc.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Not necessarily. I think it's at least as plausible that virologists outside China believed in a natural origin for SARS-CoV-2, just like the original SARS and MERS. Some of them may be changing their opinion, of course.
China surely knows whether it came from the lab, or not. The extent of their cover up and influence on the WHO + international virology community is unclear.
The General
Footballguy
Yes. It would start with China blocking, covering, withholding information / access.
Only thing clear to me at this point is a large percentage of people will no longer believe this spread naturally from bats no matter what information is released.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
There was maybe a 10% chance they were going to figure out the origin in the best situation.
This just ensures that this stays a hot potato politically for a 100 years or until all the Trumpsters move on to something else.
The General
Footballguy
One angle of this as it relates to Trump. He had access to information that led him to believe it escaped from the lab, then proceeded to let China walk all over him?
The door was probably never going to close anyway. Much like everything else the goalposts just keep moving. For them there is a boogeyman in every corner acting against Trump
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
One of the very first things you learn as an aspiring poker player is that it's a waste of time to scrutinize the play of people who have to look at a crib sheet to remind themselves that a flush beats a straight. You analyze a guy's play looking for clues, and finally spot the subtle trap your opponent has laid for you. Purring with satisfaction, you play back at him only to realize at showdown that the aspiring WPT pro across the table in wraparound shades was just chasing a backdoor draw with his 85o in a small pot because he's a fish.
For some reason I'm reminded of this lesson when it comes to drawing inferences about Trump's cards based on the things he says and does.
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Dr_Zaius
Footballguy
You're probably right, but I go back and forth on this. When you read stuff about the USSR and Chernobyl, the thing that jumps out at you is that because of the level of authoritarianism and fear, there is outright lying all up the chains of command to avoid giving bad news. This can cause the upper level authorities to be completely detached from reality. There's an amusing anecdote about the KGB being sent to spy to try to figure out how much grain was actually being produced because leadership had come to the realization that the "official" numbers were complete garbage.
If a low level employee somehow infected himself, would he tell his supervisor? Would the lab supervisor tell management? Certainly China has better technology to know what their citizens are doing than the USSR did, but still there would be a lot of pressure to save one's skin if you were in involved in a potential snafu of this magnitude.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Sobering reminder of the kind of thing we're up against in finding "truth" on this:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-55963896
Yet people want to think that's a new thing.
This is everyone's Golden Boy
https://nypost.com/2021/05/28/fauci-once-argued-viral-experiments-worth-the-risk-of-pandemic/
YIKES
https://nypost.com/2021/05/28/fauci-once-argued-viral-experiments-worth-the-risk-of-pandemic/
YIKES
I don't think the polio vaccine was developed using gain of function research/techniques.
No because that technology didn't exist back then.
I'm speaking to the fact that it's a very reputable and beneficial way to get ahead of viruses
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK285583/
"Dr. Simon Wain-Hobson, Institut Pasteur, echoed Denison's presentation by citing work done on polio by John Holland 15 years ago that showed that when chemical mutagenesis is combined with a rapidly evolving RNA virus such as polio, the fitness of the virus goes down."
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I'm not reading that entire page but I did a search on Polio and it didn't appear once.
"Dr. Simon Wain-Hobson, Institut Pasteur, echoed Denison's presentation by citing work done on polio by John Holland 15 years ago that showed that when chemical mutagenesis is combined with a rapidly evolving RNA virus such as polio, the fitness of the virus goes down."
So the Polio vaccine would still exist even if we didn't do GOF research? A yes or no will be sufficient.
no the article speaks to the advances even with polio virus through gain of function research.
why don't you read it
I posted the first article because you clearly don't even understand what it is..
The second speak to the benefits
As we've both told you, Polio isn't mentioned in the article. Can you cut and paste the portion of the article you're referring to?
I'll answer your question. The answer is NO he would not have polio if gain of function work did not exist.
"Dr. Simon Wain-Hobson, Institut Pasteur, echoed Denison's presentation by citing work done on polio by John Holland 15 years ago that showed that when chemical mutagenesis is combined with a rapidly evolving RNA virus such as polio, the fitness of the virus goes down."
I'll apologize for using Polio so let's move on. I brought it up because back in the day that was still dangerous work working without the safety tools we have today working on dangerous viruses.
GoF research is dangerous but the benefits are potentially big.
Your statement was that the Polio vaccine wouldn't exist absent the type of research being done that likely caused Covid. That type of research would be gain of function. Sounds like we're in agreement on that. But the Polio vaccine was developed back in what, the 1950's? Even the article you use to support your assertion talks about Polio research from about 15 years ago, well after the Polio vaccine was created. I'll ask once again. Is it your assertion that the Polio vaccine would not exist absent GOF research? Yes or No.
Yep, like infecting 200 million people with a virus created in a lab. Personally, I'd rather do without those benefits.
see above...i was just equating risky viral work with the benefits. My apologies for not explicitly using a GoF example. The second article i posted highlights a lot of the advances made through GoF
supermike80
Footballguy
Man doesn't this place just seem.......better somehow....over the last couple days?
Almost as if an antagonizing poster took a break?
Almost as if an antagonizing poster took a break?
Well see you gone and jumped off the deep end.
There is a lot worse in labs across the world out there than Covid I can guarantee you that and it has nothing to do with GoF.
Possibly, although you seem to like to make assertions that aren't supported by facts. In another thread earlier, you made some statement using a 10% statistic that can't actually be documented anywhere. I think it was about our chances of determining where this virus came from or something like that. You were also just caught being deceptive, and I'm being nice saying deceptive, about whether the Polio vaccine would exist absent GOF research. And now you're making this assertion. I don't believe you can make a cogent argument in support of this assertion either.
sho nuff
Footballguy
i posted an article supporting the benefits of GoF. In the right hands it's a brilliant technology. In the wrong hands, probably not so much. Same with bio-hazard tech, nuclear etc...
I don't know what the answer is. This is just the world we live in.
Again I made no reference to GoF and the polio vaccine. I was just equating that dangerous viral work and cures go hand and hand
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Doug B
Footballguy
Gain-of-function research was impossible before modern technology. But make no mistake that polio pioneers like Albert Sabin and Jonas Salk were walking a tightrope working with live polio viruses in the early 1950s. Accidental lab release of the live virus could have caused a polio outbreak.
Salk's innovation was to use inactivated virions to spur an immune response, while Sabin continued work on weakened live viruses. Both men eventually created working vaccines.
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I disagree. Your statement was that the Polio vaccine wouldn't exist but for this "type of research." The type of research in question isn't risky research. You could have said that and I might not agree with you but that would just be a difference of opinion. When you were called out on this statement by two of us, and in my case I specifically said I didn't think Polio was created using GOF research, you posted a link about GOF research, reinforcing that you knew what we were talking about. Please don't backtrack now. Just admit your statement was deceptive, apologize, and move on.
That's pretty much what I was trying to touch on. GoF is the new thing to complain about but this type of dangerous viral work has always been around
The difference is that Polio is an actual virus that existed long before Salk started working on a vaccine. It was already live in the wild. He was working to solve something that was a problem. He didn't create Polio in a lab and release it.
Sand
Footballguy
Paper from British and Norwegian virologists claim that COVID is unmistakably manmade. Not surprisingly, this paper was suppressed/not accepted to be published - the WHO/CCP influence was too strong at the time. Maybe now the full paper will see the light of day. If I see it published I'll post a link.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
SARS and MERS and countless zonontic viruses existed before SARS-CoV-2 erupted on the scene.
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