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Government Response To The Coronavirus (13 Viewers)

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moleculo said:
I don't buy the pro-vacc argument that getting our population vaccinated will prevent variants.  I mean, it's true but you have to get the entire planet vaccinated. 

To be effective, we would have to vaccinate 100% of the US population and then freeze all foreign travel from everywhere...not going to happen.  As we know now, the travel restrictions Trump put in place last February were completely ineffective in stopping the spread.  It may have slowed things down a week or two, but ultimately it's impossible.  

Variants and mutations will happen.  That's evolution baby.  It's my understanding that mutations over time become less deadly - viruses that kill their host don't spread.  We are likely to need COVID booster shots moving forward, similar to flu shots.  It is what it is.
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Also, we're not closing down the US to foreign travel.  The US isn't Australia -- there's absolutely no reason to think that we could close our borders even if we wanted to, and doing so would be so prohibitively costly and inimical to our values that we wouldn't want to go that route anyway.  (I know you agree -- just saying this out loud for emphasis).  

If our population was fully vaccinated, current variants wouldn't be a problem.  Sure, people can still be infected, but if delta gives vaccinated people the equivalent of a head cold, so what.  Our only real worry at this point is some hypothetical new variant that completely dodges the vaccines, and you're completely correct that that's outside of our control since there are going to massive reservoirs of unvaccinated people in other countries for the foreseeable future.  The best policy recommendation I can come up with is to work preemptively with the FDA to grease the skids for future approval of mRNA vaccines geared toward those as-yet-hypothetical variants.  They shouldn't be a big deal if the FDA is prepared to do a better job with vaccine approval than they did in 2020. 

 
Max Power said:
With potential for a federal employee vaccine mandate coming today, I'm back in fact gathering mode.  Yet I find a lot of my questions don't have good answers or have inconsistent answers. 

A big one... Which shot is the most effective?  Which will require boosters?  Does getting a shot today protect me against Delta or do I need the booster as well?  What if I have the antibodies?  Are they more effective short term or long term vs the vaccines...

If I get the shot, I still have to wear a mask, still have to quarantine and need to test after exposure in order to continue to work in a federal building in a "high transmission" county.
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these are all worthwhile questions to be asking.  There are a ton of inconsistent answers all over the place.  For some reason, a ton of unqualified people have been putting forth answers completely contrary to expert opinion.  Beyond that, experts don't always agree.  

and, a lot of these are unknown.  It's hard to say which will require boosters, but I'd hedge on the "all of them" answer.    short term vs long term protection: again, it's hard to say and depends in large part how the virus mutates.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Also, we're not closing down the US to foreign travel.  The US isn't Australia -- there's absolutely no reason to think that we could close our borders even if we wanted to, and doing so would be so prohibitively costly and inimical to our values that we wouldn't want to go that route anyway.  (I know you agree -- just saying this out loud for emphasis).  

If our population was fully vaccinated, current variants wouldn't be a problem.  Sure, people can still be infected, but if delta gives vaccinated people the equivalent of a head cold, so what.  Our only real worry at this point is some hypothetical new variant that completely dodges the vaccines, and you're completely correct that that's outside of our control since there are going to massive reservoirs of unvaccinated people in other countries for the foreseeable future.  The best policy recommendation I can come up with is to work preemptively with the FDA to grease the skids for future approval of mRNA vaccines geared toward those as-yet-hypothetical variants.  They shouldn't be a big deal if the FDA is prepared to do a better job with vaccine approval than they did in 2020. 
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yup - that's the boosters I'm assuming will be needed in perpetuity.

 
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Max Power said:
A big one... Which shot is the most effective?  Which will require boosters?  Does getting a shot today protect me against Delta or do I need the booster as well?  What if I have the antibodies?  Are they more effective short term or long term vs the vaccines...
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Along these lines, has anyone heard anything about Novavax EUA timeline?  Every now and then you see some report about how great the data look, but it is my understanding they haven't even filed yet?  They talked about third quarter, but if you try to google it you just get a bunch of recycled stories.

 
moleculo said:
these are all worthwhile questions to be asking.  There are a ton of inconsistent answers all over the place.  For some reason, a ton of unqualified people have been putting forth answers completely contrary to expert opinion.  Beyond that, experts don't always agree.  

and, a lot of these are unknown.  It's hard to say which will require boosters, but I'd hedge on the "all of them" answer.    short term vs long term protection: again, it's hard to say and depends in large part how the virus mutates.
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And this is where the current messaging is failing.  People are out here speaking in absolutes and we see these statements aren't holding up over time.  It's only increasing vaccine hesitancy in those who are holding out. 

This Admin, Fauci and CDC are doing a horrible job. 

 
jobarules said:
I dunno about that but we were told he was doing a tremendous job handling covid. Meanwhile, it seems like 2 steps forward 5 steps back.
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I think someone/some group(s) did a pretty darn good job (debatable how much of a role this or any administration had in that) getting vaccine capacity ramped up enough that anyone who wants one is able to get one.

I think it's beyond disingenuous for a particular group of people to argue all of the below simultaneously:

* The administration shouldn't force or coerce anyone to get vaccinated
* The administration isn't doing a good enough job getting people vaccinated
* The administration shouldn't put additional COVID mitigation measures in place
* The administration isn't doing a good enough job mitigating COVID

 
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moleculo said:
I don't buy the pro-vacc argument that getting our population vaccinated will prevent variants.  I mean, it's true but you have to get the entire planet vaccinated. 

To be effective, we would have to vaccinate 100% of the US population and then freeze all foreign travel from everywhere...not going to happen.  As we know now, the travel restrictions Trump put in place last February were completely ineffective in stopping the spread.  It may have slowed things down a week or two, but ultimately it's impossible.  

Variants and mutations will happen.  That's evolution baby.  It's my understanding that mutations over time become less deadly - viruses that kill their host don't spread.  We are likely to need COVID booster shots moving forward, similar to flu shots.  It is what it is.
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This is generally true, but the answer is also "it depends".  With a virus like this the answer is more nuanced than with a virus like ebola.  In this case, all it takes is a random mutation to the spike protein that renders our vaccines useless.  The more opportunity it has to spread and mutate, the higher that chance becomes.  In March of last year it was pretty clear to me that this would be a virus we have in our world for many years to come and we'd need to treat for it periodically.  What wasn't clear was what "periodically" meant.  That's becoming clearer as we go.  

To your first sentence, I think it's much more accurate to say that getting our population vaccinated will make it infinitely more difficult for meaningful variants to emerge.  We have, literally, billions of opportunities for this virus to mutate.  If we knock that down to a few hundred million, the virus isn't going to be nearly as successful.  

 
Stealthycat said:
wow 1-2%  ? 

of the 330,000,000 people before vaccinations came around, what % of the US population died ?

it wasn't 1-2% 
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1 or 2% of the 600k that died is all that would have died.  If you look at the percentage of people dying now who are unvaccinated compared vaccinated.  

 
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Max Power said:
The stat was 11 of the 12 cases were among vaccinated players and staff.  The first case on the team was by a vaccinated player.  Symptoms were mild to none, so it wasn't until everyone was tested that people figured out they had it.

All this after the Nationals manager said there was no need to quarantine anyone. 

What this story is really showing that people walking around vaccinated who think they are immune to getting it, or passing it along need to reevaluate the situation. 

Word is that most had the J&J version.
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No intelligent, informed human is walking around thinking they're immune to covid because they're vaccinated.

 
jobarules said:
Yeah can anyone explain this? If 1-2% of fully vaccinated are dying isn't that the same rate as unvaccinated?

FYI I think its 1-2% of breakthrough infections.
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Detected breakthrough infections, to boot.

But where did that 1-2% number come from? Is it cited upthread? EDIT: NM, I see Redwe explained it above.

 
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moleculo said:
I don't buy the pro-vacc argument that getting our population vaccinated will prevent variants.  I mean, it's true but you have to get the entire planet vaccinated. 
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I'd think this is why a policy maker would really be slow to want to recommend booster shots.   We often here the rebuttal "follow the science" as if there is only a single consideration - Does the effectiveness of the vaccine decline such that a booster is warranted?  

That answer has probably always been a "yes", but ignores whether or not taking X million dosages and using them as boosters on an already populated population offers more or less protection to that population than allocating those dosages elsewhere in the world?  I'm guessing that answer depends on the size X as when X grows larger it is better to wait on boosters, but if it is small then (at least with this narrow consideration) it favors boosters.   Just have no idea where the line might be.     

 
IvanKaramazov said:
But the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention did not publish the new research. In the text of the updated masking guidance, the agency merely cited “CDC COVID-19 Response Team, unpublished data, 2021.”

Some outside scientists have their own message: Show us the data.

“They’re making a claim that people with delta who are vaccinated and unvaccinated have similar levels of viral load, but nobody knows what that means,” said Gregg Gonsalves, an associate professor at the Yale School of Public Health. “It’s meaningless unless we see the data.”
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Gonsalves is correct. It did come out that the viral levels** were detected in the nasopharyngeal passages (as opposed to the bronchi, lungs, or bloodstream), so at least that's helpful detail.

** AIUI, "viral load" should be reserved for what's found in the blood. Conflation between virus found in different parts of the body can and will confuse laymen.

 
Max Power said:
What % of America is intelligent and informed?
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Too small of a %. It's why we have the representation that we do. We're lazy, entitled, and simple minded. We get representation that reflects those qualities. Er lack thereof. It's why there is pressure on messengers to dumb down messaging. Doing so lays gotcha traps for dummies on the other side and the perpetual cycle of dumb continues.

 
The Commish said:
This is generally true, but the answer is also "it depends".  With a virus like this the answer is more nuanced than with a virus like ebola.  In this case, all it takes is a random mutation to the spike protein that renders our vaccines useless.  The more opportunity it has to spread and mutate, the higher that chance becomes.  In March of last year it was pretty clear to me that this would be a virus we have in our world for many years to come and we'd need to treat for it periodically.  What wasn't clear was what "periodically" meant.  That's becoming clearer as we go.  

To your first sentence, I think it's much more accurate to say that getting our population vaccinated will make it infinitely more difficult for meaningful variants to emerge.  We have, literally, billions of opportunities for this virus to mutate.  If we knock that down to a few hundred million, the virus isn't going to be nearly as successful.  
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Knocking it down to a few hundred million is beyond our control.  Just 330M of 8B humans are in America.  We need a huge international effort to get there...that's years away.

 
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Max Power said:
And this is where the current messaging is failing.  People are out here speaking in absolutes and we see these statements aren't holding up over time.  It's only increasing vaccine hesitancy in those who are holding out. 

This Admin, Fauci and CDC are doing a horrible job. 
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It doesn't help the messaging when major news outlets promote opposite messages.  

If we could get past "Vaccines make you sick!" or the 5G nonsense, that would go a long way.

 
Can ANYONE here point to comments from any meaningful messenger along the lines of "take this vaccine and your problems with COVID are fixed forever"?

I can't speak to the narratives being pumped by our MSM, but this seems like a pretty dishonest "interpretation" of anything that's been provided us.  I haven't heard this in a single place I go for news...not one.  

 
moleculo said:
I don't think anyone serious told you that.
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Heard it FREQUENTLY on this board.  I know of posters who have said outright they didn't care about much more than Biden's coronavirus response.   And that's failed.

Now whether the folks that shared those thoughts on this board are serious, well that I can't answer.

 
moleculo said:
Knocking it down to a few hundred million is beyond our control.  Just 330M of 8M humans are in America.  We need a huge international effort to get there...that's years away.
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We need to be redirecting well over 75% of what we've purchased to other countries stat.....this is an absurd oversite on our part.  If people here don't want to get vaccinated, fine.  Don't.  Time to help those who want to help themselves.  This doesn't have to be many years away.

Oh, and we need to STOP footing the bill for those who choose to not be vaccinated when they come to the hospital for treatment.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Which is why the line for what is best for Americans in my prior post might always simply be boosters for Americans because the raw number of dosages being utilized might be large but the percentage of what is needed small.
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my assumption is that boosters will have a different mix, formulated to knock down the variant du jour.

 
moleculo said:
it's closer to 0.00034% of fully vaccinated are dying (of course no idea how many vaccinated catch COVID...we are missing data on that.
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which is facts/data that absolutely should be gathered - but its not

remember a shot 12 months ago when everyone was getting tested regardless of symptoms etc and then tracking who was around who ...... and now this administration isn't even tracking vaccinated covid positives

 
The Commish said:
We need to be redirecting well over 75% of what we've purchased to other countries stat.....this is an absurd oversite on our part.  If people here don't want to get vaccinated, fine.  Don't.  Time to help those who want to help themselves
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Time to tell the manufacturers that we will be ignoring the contract language of these purchases as expiring vaccines is about to happen.  We will fix the breech later.

 
The Commish said:
"take this vaccine and your problems with COVID are fixed forever"?
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"The CDC is saying they have concluded that fully vaccinated people are at a very, very low risk of getting COVID-19. Therefore, if you've been fully vaccinated, you no longer need to wear a mask. Let me repeat: If you are fully vaccinated, you no longer need to wear a mask."" Joe Biden said this on May 13, 2021

Get the shot and you will have a very, very low risk of getting covid - your President said that

Get the Shot and you will no longer need to wear a mask (obviously, because you're vaccinated and can't get covid)

Biden was crystal clear the vaccine/shot all but eliminates a person needing PPE and worrying about covid virus

 
Stealthycat said:
"The CDC is saying they have concluded that fully vaccinated people are at a very, very low risk of getting COVID-19. Therefore, if you've been fully vaccinated, you no longer need to wear a mask. Let me repeat: If you are fully vaccinated, you no longer need to wear a mask."" Joe Biden said this on May 13, 2021

Get the shot and you will have a very, very low risk of getting covid - your President said that

Get the Shot and you will no longer need to wear a mask (obviously, because you're vaccinated and can't get covid)

Biden was crystal clear the vaccine/shot all but eliminates a person needing PPE and worrying about covid virus
Click to expand...


It is no longer May 13

 
Stealthycat said:
"The CDC is saying they have concluded that fully vaccinated people are at a very, very low risk of getting COVID-19. Therefore, if you've been fully vaccinated, you no longer need to wear a mask. Let me repeat: If you are fully vaccinated, you no longer need to wear a mask."" Joe Biden said this on May 13, 2021

Get the shot and you will have a very, very low risk of getting covid - your President said that

Get the Shot and you will no longer need to wear a mask (obviously, because you're vaccinated and can't get covid)

Biden was crystal clear the vaccine/shot all but eliminates a person needing PPE and worrying about covid virus
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it seems he was wrong.  

What now?

 
Max Power said:
A big one... Which shot is the most effective? 
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I'm not qualified to answer any of your questions.  But I am pretty certain that the answer to this question given by the medical community, based on the pre appointment messaging for my annual that was just complete is that the vaccine that you can get the soonest is the most effective for you.

Yeah, I know that also doesn't really answer the question you are asking but its been the "company line" given to us for a while now.

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
I'm not qualified to answer any of your questions.  But I am pretty certain that the answer to this question given by the medical community, based on the pre appointment messaging for my annual that was just complete is that the vaccine that you can get the soonest is the most effective for you.

Yeah, I know that also doesn't really answer the question you are asking but its been the "company line" given to us for a while now.
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Thanks. Although that seems like a terrible way to choose.  :P

 
Stealthycat said:
"The CDC is saying they have concluded that fully vaccinated people are at a very, very low risk of getting COVID-19. Therefore, if you've been fully vaccinated, you no longer need to wear a mask. Let me repeat: If you are fully vaccinated, you no longer need to wear a mask."" Joe Biden said this on May 13, 2021

Get the shot and you will have a very, very low risk of getting covid - your President said that

Get the Shot and you will no longer need to wear a mask (obviously, because you're vaccinated and can't get covid)

Biden was crystal clear the vaccine/shot all but eliminates a person needing PPE and worrying about covid virus
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None of this says what I am asking for. That you think it does validates my hunch. Thanks

 
supermike80 said:
Heard it FREQUENTLY on this board.  I know of posters who have said outright they didn't care about much more than Biden's coronavirus response.   And that's failed.

Now whether the folks that shared those thoughts on this board are serious, well that I can't answer.
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1. Anticipating a better COVID response from Biden, and voting accordingly, is NOT the same as suggesting that A) Biden's response will be perfect, B) COVID will magically go away.  I don't think anyone here suggested either of those things.

2. You say Biden's response has failed.  What specific policies do you think should have been (or not been) implemented that would have resulted in a better outcome?

 
Rich Conway said:
1. Anticipating a better COVID response from Biden, and voting accordingly, is NOT the same as suggesting that A) Biden's response will be perfect, B) COVID will magically go away.  I don't think anyone here suggested either of those things.

2. You say Biden's response has failed.  What specific policies do you think should have been (or not been) implemented that would have resulted in a better outcome?
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1)   I agree.  as I said I misrepresented.  Just like the spanish Flu, Polio, smallpox, covid will never magically go away.  It was more to the belief that his covid response was going to be a giant improvement.  It ain't.

2) Needed to target minorities more.  Needed a better campaign to sell the benefits of the vaccine.  Needed to take the approach that fundamentally Americans are not terribly bright and direct the message with that in mind.  Sitting around and assuming(hoping) that everyone would line up and get the vaccine was a bad idea.  Maybe should have stepped in and kept at least suggesting masks instead of letting the guard down.  Massive mistakes by this administration in regards to the virus, how it works, how it's treated, and the public's reaction to both the vaccine and the virus itself.  

 
Rich Conway said:
1. Anticipating a better COVID response from Biden, and voting accordingly, is NOT the same as suggesting that A) Biden's response will be perfect, B) COVID will magically go away.  I don't think anyone here suggested either of those things.

2. You say Biden's response has failed.  What specific policies do you think should have been (or not been) implemented that would have resulted in a better outcome?
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It "failed" because the goal for april was reached after april. 

 
moleculo said:
it seems he was wrong.  

What now?
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what else are they wrong on ?

people believe Joe - get the shots, very very low chance of getting covid, no masks

more and more evidence we can't trust a dang thing this President or administration says

what now ? how about honesty? Biden has access to all the information and he straight up lied ..... why ? There is no way science flubbed this up that much - from "very very low" and "no masks" to where we are right now with vaccinated people getting covid, and no counting on how many and new mandates to wear masks if you're vaccinated ..... no way

if science DID flub it that bad? then wow .... how bad on everything else have they flubbed ?

 
Stealthycat said:
what else are they wrong on ?

people believe Joe - get the shots, very very low chance of getting covid, no masks

more and more evidence we can't trust a dang thing this President or administration says

what now ? how about honesty? Biden has access to all the information and he straight up lied ..... why ? There is no way science flubbed this up that much - from "very very low" and "no masks" to where we are right now with vaccinated people getting covid, and no counting on how many and new mandates to wear masks if you're vaccinated ..... no way

if science DID flub it that bad? then wow .... how bad on everything else have they flubbed ?
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Science didn't flub anything.  The people who don't believe in it have.  Unfortunately, they're taking the rest of us down with them.

 
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