FBG Gardening Thread

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Check this dude out. Bonsai wizard. I think I get the "zen-ness" of it.

[Cowboysfan8]

18 hours ago, WDIK2 said:

Love my grape tomato plants.  I have 2 and won't be able to give away the fruit fast enough to keep up.  Only a couple ripe ones so far. (Nebraska) but the plants are about 4.5' x 4' and still growing. 

Not sure when the last time was we saw even a 1/4" of rain. Have to water heavy every other day at a minimum.

Same here. I’ve been watering every other day for what seems like weeks 

50% chance of storms every day but we keep getting surrounded but missed 

[dkp993]

My whole garden has taken a turn this past week. The summer heat finally hit here (much later then normal) and it seems to be taking its toll on the cuks and tomatoes. Watering a lot and threw some fertilizer down but they don’t seems to be recovering. My cherry tomatoes have produced way more than we could possibly eat And the rest of the tomato plants have a decent amount of fruit on them but all still pretty green and the plants aren’t looking good. Not sure how to get them to recover

[Cowboysfan8]

2 hours ago, dkp993 said:

My whole garden has taken a turn this past week. The summer heat finally hit here (much later then normal) and it seems to be taking its toll on the cuks and tomatoes. Watering a lot and threw some fertilizer down but they don’t seems to be recovering. My cherry tomatoes have produced way more than we could possibly eat And the rest of the tomato plants have a decent amount of fruit on them but all still pretty green and the plants aren’t looking good. Not sure how to get them to recover

That sucks and is what I’m afraid of with this heat and dry weather

 Some tips here 

https://www.tagawagardens.com/blog/mid-summer-tomato-problems-here-are-the-answers-youre-looking-for/

good luck

[Cowboysfan8]

Thunderstorm WARNING here this evening. Looked like a soaker coming on radar.

Ending up being enough to wet the driveway

🙄

[Franknbeans]

Tomatillos and Lemon cukes

Another

[Cowboysfan8]

So far so good

Will be picking my first few zucchini tomorrow

Tomato plants look great, getting some green fruit

Cucumbers coming fast and furious at this point. I swear if you sit and stare at them you can see them grow lol

[Cowboysfan8]

Cucumbers still coming but plants looking rough. Been hot as hell here for 3 weeks or so. Still no rain

Bell peppers starting to show up. Anaheim’s n  poblanos too. 

Picked some zucchini this past week.

Cherry tomato plant is taller than me

Picked some black seeded simpson lettuce for steak salads tonight 

👍

[dkp993]

1 minute ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

Cucumbers still coming but plants looking rough. Been hot as hell here for 3 weeks or so. Still no rain

Bell peppers starting to show up. Anaheim’s n  poblanos too. 

Picked some zucchini this past week.

Cherry tomato plant is taller than me

Picked some black seeded simpson lettuce for steak salads tonight 

Nice!   

My cucumbers got hammered by the heat wave 2 weeks ago and never recovered.  Pulled them yesterday.  Fail. 

Cherry Tomatoes can be a beast and are some of my favorite to grow as they are hardy and produce like crazy. I have been drowning in them for weeks, like literally picking like 50 a day. I just gave like 250 to my neighbor yesterday.  It nuts. 

[Cowboysfan8]

Fried green tomatoes this evening

😃

[huthut]

Just planted some lettuce, chard, kale, yellow squash, cucumber, cantaloupe, and some basil (maybe attempt # 25 will work). I worry it is too hot and dry for some of the more finicky plants, but lets see how this goes. Rhubarb looks surprisingly happy though, typically don't get stalks beyond 8 inches or so, now there are some that are near 16 inches. 

[heckmanm]

Cukes and zukes are coming in HARD, and we've gotten some rain the past few days so they'll likely keep going. Lots of green tomatoes but none getting ripe yet.

Basil is doing great - I need to make some pesto soon.

[heckmanm]

Got a couple ripe heirloom tomatoes yesterday.  So I just had one of my favorite summer lunches - sliced tomato & mayo on toast.

As I say with the first ripe tomato every year: This is why I have a garden.

[Cowboysfan8]

Picked my first few Anaheim and Cubanelles

Tossed several recently, and one tomato that was ripening. Blossom end problems ☹️.

This arrived Saturday, sprayed the pepper and tomato plants in the evening. Hoping for the best 

https://www.amazon.com/Southern-Ag-Stop-Blossom-End-Tomatoes/dp/B00ACPDIL6/ref=mp_s_a_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=blossom+end+rot+treatment&qid=1595970068&sprefix=blossom+end+rot+&sr=8-8

[djmich]

Just want to say F mold/fungus....always a challenge with zukes/cukes

[joker]

21 minutes ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

Picked my first few Anaheim and Cubanelles

Tossed several recently, and one tomato that was ripening. Blossom end problems ☹️.

This arrived Saturday, sprayed the pepper and tomato plants in the evening. Hoping for the best 

https://www.amazon.com/Southern-Ag-Stop-Blossom-End-Tomatoes/dp/B00ACPDIL6/ref=mp_s_a_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=blossom+end+rot+treatment&qid=1595970068&sprefix=blossom+end+rot+&sr=8-8

Let me know how it goes. So far the blossom end issues are the only thing we've experienced this summer, but it's taken out too many of our tomatoes and peppers 

[Cowboysfan8]

53 minutes ago, joker said:

Let me know how it goes. So far the blossom end issues are the only thing we've experienced this summer, but it's taken out too many of our tomatoes and peppers 

Jug says once a week for 3 weeks. We’ll see. The reviews are good

Will report back 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Cowboysfan8

[dkp993]

5 hours ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

6 hours ago, joker said:

Let me know how it goes. So far the blossom end issues are the only thing we've experienced this summer, but it's taken out too many of our tomatoes and peppers 

Jug says once a week for 3 weeks. We’ll see. The reviews are good

Will report back 

Blossom rot is seriously the worst. Right as you start to get excited about the tomatoes coming in your heart get broken.  

[urbanhack]

My gardening:

https://i.ibb.co/P6J40Yz/jdub-weed.jpg

The yard is starting to smell nice!

[Cowboysfan8]

On 7/28/2020 at 5:01 PM, Cowboysfan8 said:

Picked my first few Anaheim and Cubanelles

Tossed several recently, and one tomato that was ripening. Blossom end problems ☹️.

This arrived Saturday, sprayed the pepper and tomato plants in the evening. Hoping for the best 

https://www.amazon.com/Southern-Ag-Stop-Blossom-End-Tomatoes/dp/B00ACPDIL6/ref=mp_s_a_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=blossom+end+rot+treatment&qid=1595970068&sprefix=blossom+end+rot+&sr=8-8

This stuff seems to have saved my tomato crop

HIGHLY recommend 

[Cowboysfan8]

On 7/28/2020 at 5:24 PM, joker said:

Let me know how it goes. So far the blossom end issues are the only thing we've experienced this summer, but it's taken out too many of our tomatoes and peppers 

Saved my tomatoes. Seriously

 

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

Anyone have a good solution to Japanese Beetles? These mean green leaf eating machines cause havoc to my garden, my peach and cherry tree, and some of my trees in the yard. Drives me bonkers. 
 

I have found Seven works, but I’m not real sure I want to spray my food with that

[Johnny B. Goode]

On 7/28/2020 at 4:24 PM, joker said:

Let me know how it goes. So far the blossom end issues are the only thing we've experienced this summer, but it's taken out too many of our tomatoes and peppers 

Whenever I see blossom end rot I immediately add fast acting lime around my tomatoes. Works like a charm and typically only have to add once

Edited August 10, 2020 by Johnny B. Goode

[jhib]

On 7/4/2020 at 12:06 AM, jhib said:

On 7/3/2020 at 10:27 AM, WDIK2 said:

Noticed a squirrel near my garden last night.  I think it has bad intentions.  It has been hot and dry for a while so I'm sure a juicy tomato looks pretty good right now.  I've never had a problem with squirrels in the garden before, but my nephew is constantly fighting them.  Unfortunately, I no longer have a furry death machine patrolling the garden.

Yup, it has bad intentions.  We had a decent drought a few years ago, and I had tomatoes disappear just as they ripened (despite the fence).  It was a mystery until one day I found a half-eaten tomato on top of a fence post, and the next day saw one of those little thieves running across the yard with a big ol' tomato in its mouth.

Squirrels are leaving my tomatoes alone this year. Unfortunately, the freaking chipmunks are going nuts. I was finding parts of cherry tomatoes on the patio near my raised beds, then half eaten full-sized tomatoes on the plant just before they were ripe enough to pick.  I put up some netting around the bottoms of the beds a few days ago and today watched from my window as a chipmunk climbed right up a one of the stakes and hopped right in.

I really need to get another dog before next summer.

[dkp993]

4 hours ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

This stuff seems to have saved my tomato crop

HIGHLY recommend 

I tried to buy some but they (amazon) won’t deliver it to where I live.  Probably has something in it Cali doesn’t like.  

I planted a second round of tomatoes 2 weeks ago.  It stays warm here for a while so really hoping to get a round 2 this season. 

[Ron Swanson]

Everything in may garden is pretty much dead, except for a couple pepper plants and some late season corn.  I think I'm going to try another round of tomatoes when things cool off a bit in September if no volunteers show up.

[huthut]

12 hours ago, jhib said:

Squirrels are leaving my tomatoes alone this year. Unfortunately, the freaking chipmunks are going nuts. I was finding parts of cherry tomatoes on the patio near my raised beds, then half eaten full-sized tomatoes on the plant just before they were ripe enough to pick.  I put up some netting around the bottoms of the beds a few days ago and today watched from my window as a chipmunk climbed right up a one of the stakes and hopped right in.

I really need to get another dog before next summer.

We have 6 grape vines, they are not table grapes, either some type of wine grape or Concord grapes, I am leaning toward the latter. Raccoons will eat all of the grapes, then throw up a giant pile of grape mush on our porch. It is not ideal. 

Also, Basil #25 is still alive for some reason, hopefully this does not jinx it. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by huthut

[Ron Swanson]

16 minutes ago, huthut said:

We have 6 grape vines, they are not table grapes, either some type of wine grape or Concord grapes, I am leaning toward the latter. Raccoons will eat all of the grapes, then throw up a giant pile of grape mush on our porch. It is not ideal. 

 

Sounds like an opportunity to me. The kopi luwak of wines. "Fermented from fresh trash panda enzymes".

[snogger]

It took awhile to get the new raised garden to actually start producing. Got to a point where the wife thought we should have added more "regular" soil to the organic soil we bought..

But here we are in August and, after spending time building a bench for her from recycled wood, and adding some rocks and patio blocks, here you go:

Garden view

Bench ( Wood burned the motto she wanted)

 

[Ron Swanson]

1 hour ago, snogger said:

It took awhile to get the new raised garden to actually start producing. Got to a point where the wife thought we should have added more "regular" soil to the organic soil we bought..

But here we are in August and, after spending time building a bench for her from recycled wood, and adding some rocks and patio blocks, here you go:

Garden view

Bench ( Wood burned the motto she wanted)

 

That dill plant is huuuge!

[Cowboysfan8]

14 hours ago, dkp993 said:

I tried to buy some but they (amazon) won’t deliver it to where I live.  Probably has something in it Cali doesn’t like.  

I planted a second round of tomatoes 2 weeks ago.  It stays warm here for a while so really hoping to get a round 2 this season. 

 

16 hours ago, Johnny B. Goode said:

Whenever I see blossom end rot I immediately add fast acting lime around my tomatoes. Works like a charm and typically only have to add once

@dkp993 maybe give the lime a shot

[snogger]

26 minutes ago, Ron Swanson said:

2 hours ago, snogger said:

It took awhile to get the new raised garden to actually start producing. Got to a point where the wife thought we should have added more "regular" soil to the organic soil we bought..

But here we are in August and, after spending time building a bench for her from recycled wood, and adding some rocks and patio blocks, here you go:

Garden view

Bench ( Wood burned the motto she wanted)

 

That dill plant is huuuge!

Yea, that along with the Cilantro decided to take up most of that side of the herb garden..
Cucumbers, green beans are producing to the point we can't keep up with harvesting.
No worries on the green beans though as our one Mutt decided she likes them and we catch her with her head in there eating her share  

Tomatoes and Jalapeños are now also starting to show lots more then we planned so will have a lot of homemade salsa coming

[Johnny B. Goode]

7 hours ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

 

@dkp993 maybe give the lime a shot

@dkp993 I also do worm composting using the worm 360. Works amazing. I crush my rinsed egg shells and put it with the greens/browns in my worm bins. It doesn’t break down, but can help the worms and in the end it ends up in my soil and helps with the calcium levels. 
 

[dkp993]

On 8/9/2020 at 7:20 PM, Johnny B. Goode said:

Whenever I see blossom end rot I immediately add fast acting lime around my tomatoes. Works like a charm and typically only have to add once

 

52 minutes ago, Johnny B. Goode said:

@dkp993 I also do worm composting using the worm 360. Works amazing. I crush my rinsed egg shells and put it with the greens/browns in my worm bins. It doesn’t break down, but can help the worms and in the end it ends up in my soil and helps with the calcium levels. 
 

Thanks.  Don’t have a compost pile/area unfortunately.  I’ve never heard of lime for the garden before what is it?  It might be a stupid question but is it literally limes?   

[Johnny B. Goode]

24 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

 

Thanks.  Don’t have a compost pile/area unfortunately.  I’ve never heard of lime for the garden before what is it?  It might be a stupid question but is it literally limes?   

I always add this Encap 10612-6 Fast Acting Lime Pouch, 2.5 Pounds, 400-Square Feet https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00140ILX8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_mmHmFbT1C0YXP

you might be able to find cheaper stuff but that’s always at my local store and has worked for me. 

It’s basically hydrated ground limestone and other soil additives. “Fast acting” is important unless you have weeks/months for the lime to interact with the soil. I use one of these packages on 200 sq feet of garden soil in the spring (too high of a pH can lead to more weeds, but I find good thick mulch with straw helps cut down), and when I do tomatoes I use it once fruiting begins. Add around the drip line and water in. If I don’t see improvement within a few days on new fruit I add more. I’ve never had to add a second time to the tomatoes, but almost always once (in addition to my spring addition). 
 

Save your egg shells. Rinse them and just throw them in a hole in the corner of your garden space (to be tilled in next year). Or rinse, dry, crush, and sprinkle all over your garden. 
Egg shells are amazing for your soil. Don’t throw out that white/brown gold. I also throw my used coffee grounds in there too

 

I have bigger problems with blight on my tomatoes, so I alternate year on and year off. This is an off year. I also tried pruning the first foot of branches off to keep the splashing down. Next year I’ll do a drip irrigation system. Tried the soaker hose and it was horrible; drip seems to be the way to go 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Johnny B. Goode

[huthut]

11 hours ago, Ron Swanson said:

Sounds like an opportunity to me. The kopi luwak of wines. "Fermented from fresh trash panda enzymes".

Will see if it happens again. Maybe I will try and make grape jelly this week to use them up first. 

[dkp993]

13 minutes ago, Johnny B. Goode said:

I always add this Encap 10612-6 Fast Acting Lime Pouch, 2.5 Pounds, 400-Square Feet https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00140ILX8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_mmHmFbT1C0YXP

you might be able to find cheaper stuff but that’s always at my local store and has worked for me. 

It’s basically hydrated ground limestone and other soil additives. “Fast acting” is important unless you have weeks/months for the lime to interact with the soil. I use one of these packages on 200 sq feet of garden soil in the spring (too high of a pH can lead to more weeds, but I find good thick mulch with straw helps cut down), and when I do tomatoes I use it once fruiting begins. Add around the drip line and water in. If I don’t see improvement within a few days on new fruit I add more. I’ve never had to add a second time to the tomatoes, but almost always once (in addition to my spring addition). 
 

Save your egg shells. Rinse them and just throw them in a hole in the corner of your garden space (to be tilled in next year). Or rinse, dry, crush, and sprinkle all over your garden. 
Egg shells are amazing for your soil. Don’t throw out that white/brown gold. I also throw my used coffee grounds in there too

 

I have bigger problems with blight on my tomatoes, so I alternate year on and year off. This is an off year. I also tried pruning the first foot of branches off to keep the splashing down. Next year I’ll do a drip irrigation system. Tried the soaker hose and it was horrible; drip seems to be the way to go 

Excellent Info thank you brother! 
I do the egg shells and coffee grounds in my garden already. I also drink a lot of ice tea that I sun brew and I’ve recently added some of those used tea bags too.  I currently hand water with an old school watering can but doing a drip line is on the agenda.  

[huthut]

Late summer, here are some raccoon vomit free grapes that I might use to make jelly or juice, I think they are Concord or a wine grape if some grapeologist can confirm, have 6 of them but they spread out everywhere so I cannot really tell where one begins or ends until they are cut back in the winter:

https://imgur.com/B9CdNiJ

And some figs. Picture this level of density on a tree 30 feet tall and in diameter, thousands and thousands of them. I feel I should take some time-lapse video of the tree growing, I have never seen a tree grow so fast. I swear it can make a 30 foot branch in a summer. If we don't cut it back it will literally take over the yard.The two large ones are almost ripe, this type stays green:

https://imgur.com/U7geYS2

Also, the cantaloupe seeds are coming up and I have about 5 or so 2 inch spouts, and Basil #25 is somehow succeeding where Basil 1-24 did not. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by huthut

[Ron Swanson]

The Papaya seeds I sprouted over the winter from a store bought papaya and transplanted this spring have now grown into 6' trees and have blooms.  

Papaya1

Blooms

[Wingnut]

On 6/1/2020 at 10:17 PM, Ron Swanson said:

If anyone wants serrano's, datil's, green onions, poblano's, jalapeno's, or miracle fruit I can fax you some. Totally overrun.

I totally get it. I just picked a couple dozen Serrano peppers and there's a couple more dozen almost ready to pick.

I've got some pickling and made pepper dust with some...not sure what I'm gonna do with all of them...any suggestions? Lol

[Cowboysfan8]

46 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

I totally get it. I just picked a couple dozen Serrano peppers and there's a couple more dozen almost ready to pick.

I've got some pickling and made pepper dust with some...not sure what I'm gonna do with all of them...any suggestions? Lol

I roasted , skinned and froze a pile of Anaheim’s 

Not sure what I’m going to use then for lol

[Ron Swanson]

4 hours ago, Wingnut said:

I totally get it. I just picked a couple dozen Serrano peppers and there's a couple more dozen almost ready to pick.

I've got some pickling and made pepper dust with some...not sure what I'm gonna do with all of them...any suggestions? Lol

I love Serrano's.  They also make excellent escabeche.  Here's my favorite recipe:

https://www.mexicanplease.com/taqueria-style-pickled-jalapenos-carrots/

ETA, ooops you already said pickled.  Be sure to add some carrots at least. Those are the best.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Ron Swanson

[Ron Swanson]

You can also ferment them for hot sauce.  I do batches of green and also let some fully ripen to red.  Here is my recipe/notes:

Tare Mason Jar on kitchen scale.

 

Cut up 1 pound of green serrano chiles (or any hot pepper) into large chunks (big enough so pieces can’t slip past fermentation weight and wall of jar).  Add to quart Mason jar. Add enough water (unchlorinated or distilled) to just cover.

 

Multiply weight of water and peppers in grams x .03. Add result in fine sea salt to water and peppers and mix thoroughly.

Leave Head space

Cover with glass fermentation weight or plastic baggie filled with water to keep peppers submerged.

Let it ferment 1-2 weeks in a cool dark place. Longer is fine.

“Fuzzy” growth is mold and bad.  White film is Kahm Yeast and OK but can be spooned off.  Basically, as long as there are no offensive odors or fuzzy growth after fermentation it is good.

Strain off the liquid and pour the remaining pepper mash and up to ⅓ of the strained liquid into 3 qt pot along with 3 cloves minced garlic, 3 ounces of white wine vinegar, and 1.5 ounces of reposada tequila.  Bring to a boil and then simmer for 15 minutes. Be mindful of not adding too much strained brine to prevent saltiness. 

Let cool slightly and then put in blender and blend until smooth liquid. Add water to achieve desired consistency, or brine if mix isn’t salty.

Leave as is and bottle or dilute with filtered water until desired consistency is achieved.

Datil version

Strain off the liquid and pour the remaining pepper mash and up to ⅓ of the strained liquid into 3 qt pot along with 3 cloves minced garlic, 3 ounces of white wine vinegar, and 1.5 ounces of aged rum.  Bring to a boil and then simmer for 15 minutes. Be mindful of not adding more strained brine to prevent saltiness.

[Wingnut]

2 hours ago, Ron Swanson said:

I love Serrano's.  They also make excellent escabeche.  Here's my favorite recipe:

https://www.mexicanplease.com/taqueria-style-pickled-jalapenos-carrots/

ETA, ooops you already said pickled.  Be sure to add some carrots at least. Those are the best.

No no, not counting the ones I picked today I have some previous batches pickling and made dust (dehydrated and ground). Im attempting fermenting today's haul, a buddy sent me a link to a recipe that is basically the exact same as the one you posted. Looking forward to seeing how they turn out.

[E Street Brat]

So what do you central Florida guys have planned for the fall?

 

 

[SWC]

i grew some jaleno peppers this year and one of them had a little squirrel or chipmunk bite out of it and i just bet that little rapscallion got the firey surprise of his life and ran off looking for some milk but guess what no milk to be found in nature so he was out of luck and learned his lesson the hard way and that my friends is the circle of life so there you have the swc gardening report for 2020 take that to the bank bromigos 

[Ron Swanson]

2 hours ago, E Street Brat said:

So what do you central Florida guys have planned for the fall?

 

 

Ha. I need to to take a picture.  I got a tad overzealous and sprouted a bunch of seeds over the last few weeks. Just planted them outside this past weekend. Most are experiments. I made the mistake of trying to save my 3 year old Datil which got hit with whiteflies late in the summer. So now I'm battling whiteflies on almost everything I planted. Hope to have them gone in a few days.

Hatch peppers - Red

Hatch peppers - Green

Shi####o Peppers

Datil Peppers

Heirloom Beefsteak Tomato

Isis Cherry Tomato

Zapotec Tomato

Broccoli

Nasturtium

Cilantro

Tomatillo

Green Beans

Purple Bell Pepper

Radishes

Carrots

Onions

Future Crops?

Bonus Pic of Papaya Crop

Edited October 27, 2020 by Ron Swanson
Add pics.

[Wingnut]

2 hours ago, Ron Swanson said:

Ha. I need to to take a picture.  I got a tad overzealous and sprouted a bunch of seeds over the last few weeks. Just planted them outside this past weekend. Most are experiments. I made the mistake of trying to save my 3 year old Datil which got hit with whiteflies late in the summer. So now I'm battling whiteflies on almost everything I planted. Hope to have them gone in a few days.

Hatch peppers - Red

Hatch peppers - Green

Shi####o Peppers

Datil Peppers

Heirloom Beefsteak Tomato

Isis Cherry Tomato

Zapotec Tomato

Broccoli

Nasturtium

Cilantro

Tomatillo

Green Beans

Purple Bell Pepper

Radishes

Carrots

Onions

Future Crops?

Bonus Pic of Papaya Crop

Wow, that setup is Impressive. I wish I had the time/patience to do something like that.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Wingnut

[Ron Swanson]

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

Wow, that setup is Impressive. I wish I had the time/patience to do something like that.

It wasn't really intentional. I sprouted too many seeds and paid for it last weekend. My back still hurts.

[E Street Brat]

21 hours ago, Ron Swanson said:

Ha. I need to to take a picture.  I got a tad overzealous and sprouted a bunch of seeds over the last few weeks. Just planted them outside this past weekend. Most are experiments. I made the mistake of trying to save my 3 year old Datil which got hit with whiteflies late in the summer. So now I'm battling whiteflies on almost everything I planted. Hope to have them gone in a few days.

Hatch peppers - Red

Hatch peppers - Green

Shi####o Peppers

Datil Peppers

Heirloom Beefsteak Tomato

Isis Cherry Tomato

Zapotec Tomato

Broccoli

Nasturtium

Cilantro

Tomatillo

Green Beans

Purple Bell Pepper

Radishes

Carrots

Onions

Future Crops?

Bonus Pic of Papaya Crop

How did you put that irrigation system together?