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“Cancel Culture” and “Woke”


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These terms, much like the older “political correctness”, are being applied to individual situations in order to suggest a larger, insidious purpose which is usually non-existent. They are also mostly used to complain about an effort to prevent rude or bigoted behavior that some of us believe should no longer be tolerated in a civil society, 

 

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That was way too long a post.  Gordon Gekko is looking at that and wondering why I couldn't tighten it up a little.

Right-wingers do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers.  What a bunch of dummies." Progressives do something dumb: "Look at those right-wingers complaining about that thing we did.  What a

I make sure to tell Tim that he's wrong about something at least weekly.  It's my good deed of the day.

1 minute ago, djmich said:

Sounds like its settled...should add this term to timschodictionary

How about we just try to avoid overarching terms? If you have an issue with a specific situation, just express your argument against it without suggesting it’s part of a larger plot? 

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7 minutes ago, timschochet said:

These terms, much like the older “political correctness”, are being applied to individual situations in order to suggest a larger, insidious purpose which is usually non-existent. They are also mostly used to complain about an effort to prevent rude or bigoted behavior that some of us believe should no longer be tolerated in a civil society, 

 

Prediction: any and all evidence to the contrary will be met with either (1) "that's just an anecdote" or (2) "that's just stupid college students being stupid college students" or (3) "that's just an anecdote about stupid college students."  

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

If you have an issue with a specific situation, just express your argument against it without suggesting it’s part of a larger plot? 

JFC I couldn't even squeeze in a short little post before tim went there explicitly.  

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Tim:  Cancel culture is just getting rid of racism, prove me wrong.  

Reality:  Don't disagree with the mob or they'll go after your job.  

People wanted (and probably still want to) cancel paw patrol because the cop puppy was a good cop puppy and not a racist cop puppy.

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8 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Prediction: any and all evidence to the contrary will be met with either (1) "that's just an anecdote" or (2) "that's just stupid college students being stupid college students" or (3) "that's just an anecdote about stupid college students."  

This isn’t a fact based question. I’m offering an opinion about these terms, not about specific incidents. 

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17 minutes ago, timschochet said:

These terms, much like the older “political correctness”, are being applied to individual situations in order to suggest a larger, insidious purpose which is usually non-existent. They are also mostly used to complain about an effort to prevent rude or bigoted behavior that some of us believe should no longer be tolerated in a civil society, 

 

Political correctness?  Have not heard that in years.

I hear "woke" everyday if not multible times a day at work. Our one boss always says it if he informs us of something. Instead of saying now you know he always says "Now you are woke"

I never had a Popeyes Chicken sandwich until a guy at work bought me one. 

As I was raving about he said  "you are woke"  on the best chicken sammy

Is that OK?

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4 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Another Ted talk from Tim.

Count down till 4 months from now when we get the thread titled

"I was wrong about cancel culture"

1. I have no idea who Ted is or what that means. 
2. Not a fact based issue. I can’t be wrong about this because I’m not right about it; I’m expressing a point of view. I might change that point of view at some point, anything’s possible. 

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1 minute ago, Summer Wheat said:

Political correctness?  Have not heard that in years.

I hear "woke" everyday if not multible times a day at work. Our one boss always says it if he informs us of something. Instead of saying now you know he always says "Now you are woke"

I never had a Popeyes Chicken sandwich until a guy at work bought me one. 

As I was raving about he said  "you are woke"  on the best chicken sammy

Is that OK?

You’re saying that “woke” simply means now you’re aware of something you weren’t? Interesting. That’s not how I’ve ever heard it used, in my limited experience, it’s only used to denigrate a liberal action or reaction. 

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You’re saying that “woke” simply means now you’re aware of something you weren’t? Interesting. That’s not how I’ve ever heard it used, in my limited experience, it’s only used to denigrate a liberal action or reaction. 

No, really never heard it used as anything to do with politics. Started a couple of years ago and now  everbody just says it.    Like if you were confused about something and are told what to do it is "Now you woke"   Like now you are aware.

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2 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

Political correctness?  Have not heard that in years.

I hear "woke" everyday if not multible times a day at work. Our one boss always says it if he informs us of something. Instead of saying now you know he always says "Now you are woke"

I never had a Popeyes Chicken sandwich until a guy at work bought me one. 

As I was raving about he said  "you are woke"  on the best chicken sammy

Is that OK?

The problem is your coworker is wrong about Popeyes.  
 

Speaking of the cancel culture and the BS involving it.   Ironic that people were going after Trump donors, even suggest they are boycotted.  I haven’t seen the outrage from them about donating to the Lincoln Project.  They must like everything they stood for from the top.  It’s truly amazing how things come out AFTER the election, don’t want to rock the boat.

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Just now, Summer Wheat said:

No, really never heard it used as anything to do with politics. Started a couple of years ago and now just everbody just says it.    Like if you were confused about something and are told what to do it is "Now you woke"   Like now you are aware.

All right. Well obviously I would have no complaint if that’s how it’s used. But again, that’s not been my experience. 

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You’re saying that “woke” simply means now you’re aware of something you weren’t? Interesting. That’s not how I’ve ever heard it used, in my limited experience, it’s only used to denigrate a liberal action or reaction. 

That's basically what it always has been, to be fully aware of your surroundings from other points of view - from the left.  If people from the right use it, it’s because we make fun of it (well me anyway).

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2 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

The problem is your coworker is wrong about Popeyes.  
 

Speaking of the cancel culture and the BS involving it.   Ironic that people were going after Trump donors, even suggest they are boycotted.  I haven’t seen the outrage from them about donating to the Lincoln Project.  They must like everything they stood for from the top.  It’s truly amazing how things come out AFTER the election, don’t want to rock the boat.

You are judging my co-worker on what he likes?  I agree but if he likes it so be it.

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1 minute ago, FairWarning said:

The problem is your coworker is wrong about Popeyes.  
 

Speaking of the cancel culture and the BS involving it.   Ironic that people were going after Trump donors, even suggest they are boycotted.  I haven’t seen the outrage from them about donating to the Lincoln Project.  They must like everything they stood for from the top.  It’s truly amazing how things come out AFTER the election, don’t want to rock the boat.

You’re referring to the allegations against the founder of the Lincoln Project, Weaver? If those allegations are true, the Lincoln Project will be tarnished and people will stop donating to it unless and until Weaver is completely removed and ostracized. And that’s what should happen. And it’s perfectly fine to boycott Trump donors. Neither of these suggest a larger canceling of culture. What culture? 

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I didn’t make this argument. 

I guess it reads like you're saying people say cancel culture to complain that people want bigotry to stop.

To me cancel culture isn't simply "let's change behaviors."  It's "let's take your job."  We don't like what Tucker Carlson says, we don't like that someone supports the wrong presidential candidate, etc. 

People wanted to cancel Wendy's because someone in the corporate donated money to Trump's campaign.  That's not "complaining about bigotry no longer being tolerated."

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4 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

That's basically what it always has been, to be fully aware of your surroundings from other points of view - from the left.  If people from the right use it, it’s because we make fun of it (well me anyway).

I’ve never heard it used by the left- that may be ignorance on my part. I’ve only heard it used to denigrate the left. If it’s used politically by the left I would dislike that just as much (perhaps more.) 

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Just now, timschochet said:

You’re referring to the allegations against the founder of the Lincoln Project, Weaver? If those allegations are true, the Lincoln Project will be tarnished and people will stop donating to it unless and until Weaver is completely removed and ostracized. And that’s what should happen. And it’s perfectly fine to boycott Trump donors. Neither of these suggest a larger canceling of culture. What culture? 

It Doesn’t matter, be offended first and worry about it later.  Look at Goya for starters.  AOC tried to put them out of business for meeting with Trump.

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Just now, timschochet said:

I’ve never heard it used by the left- that may be ignorance on my part. I’ve only heard it used to denigrate the left. If it’s used politically by the left I would dislike that just as much (perhaps more.) 

It started with the left, then the right for sick of how we are supposed to feel.  

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14 minutes ago, timschochet said:

1. I have no idea who Ted is or what that means. 
2. Not a fact based issue. I can’t be wrong about this because I’m not right about it; I’m expressing a point of view. I might change that point of view at some point, anything’s possible. 

1) OK

2) we all know it's your opinion.  Duh  Like your opinion on BLM..  We get it.  

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2 minutes ago, jm192 said:

I guess it reads like you're saying people say cancel culture to complain that people want bigotry to stop.

To me cancel culture isn't simply "let's change behaviors."  It's "let's take your job."  We don't like what Tucker Carlson says, we don't like that someone supports the wrong presidential candidate, etc. 

People wanted to cancel Wendy's because someone in the corporate donated money to Trump's campaign.  That's not "complaining about bigotry no longer being tolerated."

They’re not canceling anything. What they’re doing is saying we will use our economic power to try and force Wendy’s to change their behavior- or more simply, we will use our economic power to support companies we approve of- these are justifiable and IMO, positive acts of capitalism and the free marketplace. 
If these same folks wanted a law to make Wendy’s illegal, then I would be willing to call that “canceling”, and obviously be opposed. 

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33 minutes ago, timschochet said:

These terms, much like the older “political correctness”, are being applied to individual situations in order to suggest a larger, insidious purpose which is usually non-existent. They are also mostly used to complain about an effort to prevent rude or bigoted behavior that some of us believe should no longer be tolerated in our definition of  a civil society, 

 

I am working so making it short & sweet, edited for you.

Its real, it exists to a much much larger degree that you give it credit for (most people are intelligent enough to not self--cancel) and in my view it puts a very harmful pall on speech.  Ironically, not on the people that you would call the "real rude or bigotted" people because they still say whatever the #### they want to say.  

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3 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

It Doesn’t matter, be offended first and worry about it later.  Look at Goya for starters.  AOC tried to put them out of business for meeting with Trump.

Really! Did she propose a law to limit their sales? 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

They’re not canceling anything. What they’re doing is saying we will use our economic power to try and force Wendy’s to change their behavior- or more simply, we will use our economic power to support companies we approve of- these are justifiable and IMO, positive acts of capitalism and the free marketplace. 
If these same folks wanted a law to make Wendy’s illegal, then I would be willing to call that “canceling”, and obviously be opposed. 

Why would you call that canceling.  Replace economic with political.  They are just using their political power.  

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

You’re referring to the allegations against the founder of the Lincoln Project, Weaver? If those allegations are true, the Lincoln Project will be tarnished and people will stop donating to it unless and until Weaver is completely removed and ostracized. And that’s what should happen. And it’s perfectly fine to boycott Trump donors. Neither of these suggest a larger canceling of culture. What culture? 

I don't think cancel culture means the act of cancelling a certain culture.  

It means a culture of cancelling.  When we don't like what you say, we silence you.  We take away your job.  And other people will know if they don't walk the line, their job is at risk. 

Sometimes it's reasonable and justified.  Sometimes it's over tangential issues.  "We have concluded cops are racist.  And Paw Patrol shows a cop.  Paw patrol must remove the cop or we'll boycott Nickelodeon.

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Just now, timschochet said:

They’re not canceling anything. What they’re doing is saying we will use our economic power to try and force Wendy’s to change their behavior- or more simply, we will use our economic power to support companies we approve of- these are justifiable and IMO, positive acts of capitalism and the free marketplace. 
If these same folks wanted a law to make Wendy’s illegal, then I would be willing to call that “canceling”, and obviously be opposed. 

Maybe not in your example, but what about in cases where a professor loses their job over a comment or idea?  That's happened, and I am guessing that will make it a lot harder for them to get a job again, especially when it seems a lot of those cases are accompanied by social media presence and outrage.  

No, not "cancelled" in that they can never express their opinions again, if that's what you are driving at, but I think people use it as a descriptor for actions that lead up to people losing their jobs.  

And yes, both are used as a joking or negative way to describe the extremes of the spectrum now.  

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19 minutes ago, timschochet said:

1. I have no idea who Ted is or what that means. 
2. Not a fact based issue. I can’t be wrong about this because I’m not right about it; I’m expressing a point of view. I might change that point of view at some point, anything’s possible. 

A point of view can be wrong.  :coffee:

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1 minute ago, djmich said:

Why would you call that canceling.  Replace economic with political.  They are just using their political power.  

Because I’m not a socialist. 
Economic power is not cancel culture. People didn’t like New Coke, so Coca-Cola pulled it off the shelves. Was that cancel culture? No, it was simply the free market. 
 

 

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2 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Hold on a second.  Tim was just joking about not knowing what a TED talk is, right?  Like in a "Who is the Weeknd and why does he spell his name wrong?" shtick sense, right?

1. No.

2. I asked that exact question during Super Bowl halftime. My daughters had to inform me. 

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3 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Maybe not in your example, but what about in cases where a professor loses their job over a comment or idea?  That's happened, and I am guessing that will make it a lot harder for them to get a job again, especially when it seems a lot of those cases are accompanied by social media presence and outrage.  

No, not "cancelled" in that they can never express their opinions again, if that's what you are driving at, but I think people use it as a descriptor for actions that lead up to people losing their jobs.  

And yes, both are used as a joking or negative way to describe the extremes of the spectrum now.  

Yep.  If people lose their jobs for non performance reasons, or in most cases a career because now they're 45 years old without any references and their name spread all over the Internet, that's being canceled.  Ask the NY Times reporter who just lost his career for innocently using the N word if he was canceled.  He'd say he was.

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

1. No.

I'm not sure that person unfamiliar with the concept of a TED talk is the right person to be confidently opining on the intellectual climate of our age.  You're literally not part of the conversation.

Edited by IvanKaramazov
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Incidentally, the exact same argument that’s being made here by several people in opposition to my opinion was made by those who opposed the Montgomery Bus Boycott, which was started by Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King. They used different language but the gist was essentially the same: “you’re trying to punish anyone who has a different point of view than yours, this is an effort to force everyone to think the same way.” 

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

I'm not sure that person unfamiliar with the concept of TED talk is the right person to be confidently opining on the intellectual climate of our age.

This is exactly what struck me about this whole thing. "Who's Ted? And why is he talking? I know 'woke'. Don't tell me I'm not!"

tim, we know for years you've tried to say that political correctness is good. You haven't stopped to consider the chilling effect of large and overwhelming social approbation reactions to speech once, and you're like a bull in a china shop on this issue.

It's not your strength.

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Because I’m not a socialist. 
Economic power is not cancel culture. People didn’t like New Coke, so Coca-Cola pulled it off the shelves. Was that cancel culture? No, it was simply the free market. 
 

 

You are conflating purchase decisions that are based on product features vs political views, obviously very different.  

What I don't understand is why you wouldn't comparably support the exercise of political power (which in this case would actually be using it exactly what it is meant for...to pass laws) to cancel expression of thought the same way you would use your dollars.

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10 minutes ago, jm192 said:

I don't think cancel culture means the act of cancelling a certain culture.  

It means a culture of cancelling.  When we don't like what you say, we silence you.  We take away your job.  And other people will know if they don't walk the line, their job is at risk. 

Sometimes it's reasonable and justified.  Sometimes it's over tangential issues.  "We have concluded cops are racist.  And Paw Patrol shows a cop.  Paw patrol must remove the cop or we'll boycott Nickelodeon.

This is a good post.  One of the problems with discussions involving terms like "cancel culture," "woke," "social justice warrior," or whatever is that people get hung up on arguing about what the terms mean, or should mean, as opposed to the object-level phenomenon that they're describing.  It would be much better if people did what you're doing here -- explaining what they mean by those terms up front instead of just assuming that we're all on the same page.

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Incidentally, the exact same argument that’s being made here by several people in opposition to my opinion was made by those who opposed the Montgomery Bus Boycott, which was started by Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King. They used different language but the gist was essentially the same: “you’re trying to punish anyone who has a different point of view than yours, this is an effort to force everyone to think the same way.” 

Dear god.

I'm done.  Someone contact me when we're not all racists from the 1960's for disagreeing with Tim.

 

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:lmao:  Tim tells everyone to stop using the word "woke", doesn't realize it was coined by the left.  BLM waits for his apology.

Quote

First used in the 1940s, the term has resurfaced in recent years as a concept that symbolizes perceived awareness of social issues and movement. By the late 2010s, woke had been adopted as a more generic slang term associated with left-wing politics, progressive or socially liberal causes such as anti-racism, LGBT rights, feminism and environmentalism. It has also been the subject of memes, ironic usage and criticism for its methods and consequences. Its widespread use since 2014 is a result of the Black Lives Matter movement

 

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7 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Maybe not in your example, but what about in cases where a professor loses their job over a comment or idea?  That's happened, and I am guessing that will make it a lot harder for them to get a job again, especially when it seems a lot of those cases are accompanied by social media presence and outrage.  

No, not "cancelled" in that they can never express their opinions again, if that's what you are driving at, but I think people use it as a descriptor for actions that lead up to people losing their jobs.  

And yes, both are used as a joking or negative way to describe the extremes of the spectrum now.  

When a professor or broadcaster or someone similar loses their job over a comment or series of comments, sometimes that’s justifiable, sometimes it isn’t. It depends on the specific situation. All I’m asking is that we look at each of these instances based on their own merits. 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I appreciate those here who respond to my actual posts, no matter how much you might disagree with me, rather than attempt to put words in my mouth. 

When you say "your arguments are the same as people who opposed the civil rights movement," I think there's a pretty clear implication.  If you didn't mean that implication, perhaps you should put more thought into the words before clicking submit.

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