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“Cancel Culture” and “Woke”


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54 minutes ago, Space Captain said:

Jordan Peterson is enlightening. Thank you for turning me on to this GG.

He is also a bit out there.  That whole prescribed coma and trip to Russia is odd.

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54 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I apologize for getting in late on this. Can you elaborate more on the bolded?

Maybe it's semantics or splitting hairs and I also don't spend much time thinking about this but I found both of those things somewhat surprising. 

I normally do think of woke as more a liberal thing. And I don't normally think of liking capitalism as an especially liberal thing. 

People on the left hand side of the political spectrum tend to be split into a "liberal" wing (more centrist) and a "progressive" wing (more left-wing).  Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi, and most other Democrats are liberals, not leftists.  People who write for The Nation are progressives, not liberals.  I don't want to get too hung up on labels -- some people on the left would prefer to describe themselves as radicals, Marxists, Leftists, or something like that, but I'm just going to toss them all under the term "progressive" because it sounds less confrontational and it's just an easy way to distinguish between people like Bill and Hillary Clinton on one hand and Angela Davis on the other.

Liberals tend to be in favor of individualism, individual rights, free speech, protections for people accused of crimes, and so on.  They also tend to support capitalism as opposed to stuff like nationalizing industries.  They do support a strong economic safety net, but that's not inconsistent with their support for free enterprise.  That's how Nordic countries operate.  People on my side of the aisle have clouded the waters here by conflating "support for a safety net" with "socialism" which is unhelpful.

When progressives sneer at "neoliberals" (a term that's nearly always meant as a pejorative), they're not talking about people like me.  They're talking about people like Matt Yglesias, Noah Smith, probably Paul Krugman to the extent that he's still relevant, definitely Jason Furman, and so on.  Those people are conventional liberal Democrats who support more welfare than I support and more regulation than I support, but they would say that their goal is to improve capitalism, not replace it.  Progressives actually do want to replace capitalism outright.

This hasn't become mainstream yet, but hardly a week goes by when I don't see something or another about how we need to "dismantle racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, capitalism, colonialism, ableism . . ."  The first few times I had to do a double-take at capitalism being included in that laundry list, but this is now fairly standard thinking about academic leftists (not liberals).

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

It would probably be good for somebody like @fatguyinalittlecoat to read through that for accuracy and fairness.  I'm trying to be fair in describing these camps, but I'm writing as an outsider to both.  

I have avoided this thread like the plague and don't plan on changing that, but thanks for the opportunity.

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2 hours ago, Sand said:

So somehow Mein Kampf doesn't promote hatred and violence, but If I Ran the Zoo does?

HFS these people are absolutely bat#### crazy.

this is a really good callout, as was @whoknew (I think) calling our Huck Finn.  not terribly consistent.

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3 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

I apologize for getting in late on this. Can you elaborate more on the bolded?

Maybe it's semantics or splitting hairs and I also don't spend much time thinking about this but I found both of those things somewhat surprising. 

I normally do think of woke as more a liberal thing. And I don't normally think of liking capitalism as an especially liberal thing. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

From Wiki:

Woke (/ˈwoʊk/ WOHK) is a term that originated in the United States, referring to a perceived awareness of issues that concern social justice and racial justice.[1] It derives from the African-American Vernacular English expression stay woke, whose grammatical aspect refers to a continuing awareness of these issues.

First used in the 1940s, the term has resurfaced in recent years as a concept that symbolizes perceived awareness of social issues and movement. By the late 2010s, woke had been adopted as a more generic slang term associated with left-wing politics, progressive or socially liberal causes such as anti-racism, LGBT rights, feminism and environmentalism. It has also been the subject of memes, ironic usage and criticism for its methods and consequences.[2][3] Its widespread use since 2014 is a result of the Black Lives Matter movement.[1][4]

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3 hours ago, -jb- said:

this is a really good callout, as was @whoknew (I think) calling our Huck Finn.  not terribly consistent.

I think the point is there are a ton of books that insult the sensibilities of some or many that haven't gotten this treatment - yet.  Karl Marx, Nabokov, Machiavelli, the list goes on.  This is purely reactionary and the road it goes down is very, very slippery.  After all, Dr. Seuss is about as milquetoast as it gets.

There should be vanishingly few books that are removed from public consumption (stuff like The Anarchist's Cookbook, for example).

Edited by Sand
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17 hours ago, Sand said:

I think the point is there are a ton of books that insult the sensibilities of some or many that haven't gotten this treatment - yet.  Karl Marx, Nabokov, Machiavelli, the list goes on.  This is purely reactionary and the road it goes down is very, very slippery.  After all, Dr. Seuss is about as milquetoast as it gets.

There should be vanishingly few books that are removed from public consumption (stuff like The Anarchist's Cookbook, for example).

The Dr. Seuss estate decided not to publish the works any longer. Basically an incredibly effective marketing ploy. I don't see the need for outrage here.

eta: I edited to remove a racist Dr. Seuss cartoon, because I thought it might get me banned here. It's easily googleable and definitely not milquetoast.

Edited by Westerberg
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1 minute ago, Westerberg said:

The estate that runs Dr. Seuss's estate decided not to publish the works any longer. Basically an incredibly effective marketing ploy. I don't see the need for outrage here.

The actions of our biggest sellers - Amazon, Ebay, etc. are much more concerning and essentially comprise a digital book burning.

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13 minutes ago, Sand said:

.  This is purely reactionary

From who?

There was no progressive push to cancel Dr. Seuss.  

Is anyone else aware of this???

 

This is just War on Christmas--this year's model.  You have a 24 hour news channel, and you have 24 hours to NOT talk about the GOP voting down an incredibly popular piece of legislation to help millions of Americans, so this is what you talk about.   

Doesn't mean you have to fall for it.

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14 minutes ago, massraider said:

and you have 24 hours to NOT talk about the GOP voting down an incredibly popular piece of legislation to help millions of Americans, so this is what you talk about.   

You mean, like this?

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7 hours ago, Sand said:

So somehow Mein Kampf doesn't promote hatred and violence, but If I Ran the Zoo does?

HFS these people are absolutely bat#### crazy.

It seems that eBay's justification is that Mein Kampf has not been disavowed by Hitler's estate. :mellow:

eBay is still allowing people to sell other Dr. Seuss items which have been the target of liberals -- some of which are far more racist-y than the deleted books. They just won't let you sell the 6 books which were pulled by the Seuss organization.

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1 hour ago, massraider said:

From who?

There was no progressive push to cancel Dr. Seuss.  

Is anyone else aware of this???

 

This is just War on Christmas--this year's model.  You have a 24 hour news channel, and you have 24 hours to NOT talk about the GOP voting down an incredibly popular piece of legislation to help millions of Americans, so this is what you talk about.   

Doesn't mean you have to fall for it.

This is a massive misrepresentation at best, and a lie at worst.  You know why it was voted down yet you still want to push this narrative?  Who is falling for what again?  I suggest you subscribe to more than one source for you information.

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53 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

This is a massive misrepresentation at best, and a lie at worst.  You know why it was voted down yet you still want to push this narrative?  Who is falling for what again?  I suggest you subscribe to more than one source for you information.

It's popular, there are multiple polls showing more than 50% of Republicans support it. 

The fact remains, this Dr. Seuss thing had NOTHING to do with cancel culture, and the high pitched hysteria on Fox News is embarrassing.

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4 hours ago, massraider said:

The origin of this Dr. Seuss mess has nothing to do with a liberal woke Twitter mob. 

Has anyone pointed that out?

https://nypost.com/2021/03/02/decision-to-pull-dr-seuss-books-followed-study-accusing-author-of-racism/
 

The family of author Theodor Seuss Geisel told the Associated Press on Tuesday that the decision to pull the books from publication followed a lengthy review of feedback from “teachers, academics and specialists.”

Edited by ekbeats
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3 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

https://nypost.com/2021/03/02/decision-to-pull-dr-seuss-books-followed-study-accusing-author-of-racism/
 

The family of author Theodor Seuss Geisel told the Associated Press on Tuesday that the decision to pull the books from publication followed a lengthy review of feedback from “teachers, academics and specialists.”

I appreciate you proving my point. 

Dr. Seuss crushing it on Amazon right now, some people might not actually know the definition of "cancel".

Is that possible?

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10 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

https://nypost.com/2021/03/02/decision-to-pull-dr-seuss-books-followed-study-accusing-author-of-racism/
 

The family of author Theodor Seuss Geisel told the Associated Press on Tuesday that the decision to pull the books from publication followed a lengthy review of feedback from “teachers, academics and specialists.”

Moar evidence but no evidence, amirite, G?

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"Specialists"

The mind boggles at the thought. The human resources crew. Experts in diversity training. The wokest of the woke. Who knows what woke lies in the hearts of men? "And womxyn!"

:lmao:

 

Edited by rockaction
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13 minutes ago, rockaction said:

"Specialists"

The mind boggles at the thought. The human resources crew. Experts in diversity training. The wokest of the woke. Who knows what woke lies in the hearts of men? "And womxyn!"

:lmao:

 

Probably the same people as these experts. 

Critics are condemning a decision to no longer publish six Dr. Seuss books, but experts say a reckoning with his racist works is long overdue. 

Experts

 

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2 minutes ago, djmich said:

Probably the same people as these experts. 

Critics are condemning a decision to no longer publish six Dr. Seuss books, but experts say a reckoning with his racist works is long overdue. 

Experts

 

Amazing times we are in huh?

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28 minutes ago, ekbeats said:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/even-homer-gets-mobbed-11609095872
#DisruptTexts and Learning for Justice are two groups that have been lobbying against Dr. Suess for the last few years.  Whether that constitutes a “mob”?  I guess that’s in the eye of the beholder.

Oh yeah, like I said, before there were cries that this is just a ploy to distract people on the right, we had this same damn argument about Dr. Seuss on this very board three years ago. The people on this board still interested in telling you the left has nothing to do with this are complete gaslighters on the issue, and nothing else.

It doesn't matter that I deal with them in simpatico ways for the rest of the time I spend here; on this issue, they're gaslighting or they're in la-la land. Either way, it's a waste of time. 

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10 hours ago, massraider said:

The origin of this Dr. Seuss mess has nothing to do with a liberal woke Twitter mob. 

Has anyone pointed that out?

I see social media posts acting like this Dr Suess book silliness is happening because Biden is President and I think some actually believe there was some kind of bill in Congress to cancel.

Edited by lazyike
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1 hour ago, massraider said:

Seuss estate decides to stop publishing books. 

Conservatives show their displeasure by..............purchasing a bunch of Dr. Seuss books, and financially rewarding them. 

👍 💰

Step 1: Steal underpants. Enrage/trigger the people who loved to be enraged by believing "snowflakes" are enraged.

Step 2: 

Step 3: Profit!

 

Really kind of genius if you think about it. 

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13 minutes ago, Zow said:

Step 1: Steal underpants. Enrage/trigger the people who loved to be enraged by believing "snowflakes" are enraged.

Step 2: 

Step 3: Profit!

 

Really kind of genius if you think about it. 

Yeah, because nobody hasn't put this on blast for three years.

Nice post. Too bad you don't know anything about the back story and how long we've been arguing with liberal lawyers on this board about Seuss. Henry Ford was always ready to take up the charge against outraging the people who loved to be outraged, too. Similar argument, three years later, books now gone. Sounds like one side won while engaging the other for even paying attention

Edited by rockaction
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2 hours ago, squistion said:

:coffee:

House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy reads Green Eggs and Ham by Dr. Seuss after the children's author's estate announced six of his books — with Green Eggs and Ham not among the titles — will no longer be published due to racist imagery.

https://twitter.com/GOPLeader/status/1368011754425483265 (video clip at link)

 

He did it because government officials read the anti-racism book for years and have now, uh, cancelled the readings. In the true meaning of 'cancelled'. Like I said, the GOP does the anti-cancel culture people no favors by attaching its diminished name to the cause.

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12 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Yeah, because nobody hasn't put this on blast for three years.

Nice post. Too bad you don't know anything about the back story and how long we've been arguing with liberal lawyers on this board about Seuss. Henry Ford was always ready to take up the charge against outraging the people who loved to be outraged, too. Similar argument, three years later, books now gone. Sounds like one side won while engaging the other for even paying attention

I was making a South Park joke. 

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Charles Blow wrote a NYT opinion piece (which I can't link due to paywall) that argues classic cartoon characters, such as Pepe Le Pew and Speedy Gonzales, popularized negative stereotypes and 'normalized rape culture'

As a result Pepe Le Pew is trending on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?q="Pepe Le Pew"&src=trend_click&vertical=trends

Blow responded to some of the outrage expressed over the article:

Charles M. Blow @CharlesMBlow 4h

RW blogs are mad bc I said Pepe Le Pew added to rape culture. Let’s see.

1. He grabs/kisses a girl/stranger, repeatedly, w/o consent and against her will.

2. She struggles mightily to get away from him, but he won’t release her

3. He locks a door to prevent her from escaping.

https://twitter.com/CharlesMBlow/status/1368200161558663168 (cartoon clip at link)

This helped teach boys that “no” didn’t really mean no, that it was a part of “the game”, the starting line of a power struggle. It taught overcoming a woman’s strenuous, even physical objections, was normal, adorable, funny. They didn’t even give the woman the ability to SPEAK.

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10 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

I always thought the point of Pepe lepew was that was NOT how it was done. His behavior was bad and never worked.

Now he would drop date rape drugs in the cat's cucumber hard seltzer.  He then would feel her up, only to find out shes transitioning.  

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46 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

Lets all boycott Pepsi/Frito Lay for truly offensive Frito Bandito commercials from the 60's.  That'll teach em.

Too late, the company learned their lesson decades ago and dropped the Frito Bandito in response to complaints by Latinos who found it extremely offensive. 

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2 hours ago, squistion said:

Too late, the company learned their lesson decades ago and dropped the Frito Bandito in response to complaints by Latinos who found it extremely offensive. 

Yeah, your issues with comprehension completely missed the sarcasm inherent in his voice about boycotting now what a product in the '60s advertised. But you keep on truckin'.

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On 3/3/2021 at 4:30 PM, timschochet said:

And now we get to the heart of the matter: telling the truth about people is not the same as tarnishing their reputations, because people are complicated, history is complicated, and we need to recognize that as a society: 

1. Thomas Jefferson was one of our greatest Americans, essential to our liberty, and also a slaveowner. 
2. Abraham Lincoln was our greatest President, saved the Union, freed the slaves, and he was also a horrible racist who wanted to deport every black person living here. 
3. Winston Churchill was the greatest leader of the 20th century who saved western civilization. He was also a horrible racist who deliberately starved to death millions of Indians.

4. Dr. Seuss was a great liberal and a magnificent writer. So was Roald Dahl. They were both anti-semites and racists. 
 

Etc. ALL of this can be true. We should embrace these contradictions rather than pretend they don’t exist. 

Tim, regarding Dr. Seuss....what do you think of this articles views on Seuss

Dr Seuss

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Canceled

The 16 year old boy, whose TikTok video about how he's attracted to girls started the #superstraight hashtag, has revealed he's removed it because trans activists have sent his mother death threats (and have written negative reviews of her business to try and destroy it)

Superstraight

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1 hour ago, djmich said:

Canceled

The 16 year old boy, whose TikTok video about how he's attracted to girls started the #superstraight hashtag, has revealed he's removed it because trans activists have sent his mother death threats (and have written negative reviews of her business to try and destroy it)

Superstraight

I’m guessing that any kid who refers to himself as “superstraight” is doing a little more than simply professing an attraction to girls. I’m guessing there’s some bigoted anti-gay stuff in there somewhere. 

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