Actually it’s not. It’s the only place in this country where people can legally have free labor (other than volunteering of course). It’s a scam and should be illegal. I could be persuaded that the job should be paid minimum wage, but they should not get hired help for free.That’s on par with the Uber eats dude who cried online that he isn’t paid enough after getting a $1 tip.
If you don’t make enough money doing a job you should quit and find a new job.
I guess my view and question revolves more around, how can it be legal?My son did an unpaid internship this past summer. He learned a lot. By definition, the intern has to be the beneficiary of the relationship. And he was. He learned a lot and it will help him get a $150K+ job when he graduates. He didn't complain once about not getting paid, He and us know it's worth it in the long run.
If unpaid internships didn't exist, companies wouldn't do anything. It's not like the company gets much out of a 19 year old unskilled worker that is likely to take a full time job elsewhere. Now, the paid internships are meant to result in a long term job. That benefits both parties. He's got that setup for this summer.
If you don't want to do it, don't. Go find a paying job.
The victim of the unpaid internship system isn’t your son. It’s the person that can’t do the unpaid internship because he needs to pay his rent and eat. And then can’t get the six-figure job later because he doesn’t have the experience that your son has.If unpaid internships didn't exist, companies wouldn't do anything. It's not like the company gets much out of a 19 year old unskilled worker that is likely to take a full time job elsewhere. Now, the paid internships are meant to result in a long term job. That benefits both parties. He's got that setup for this summer.
There are many carveouts in the mininum-wage laws. Many internships -- especially those aimed at students -- are probably considered training opportunities rather than employment.I guess my view and question revolves more around, how can it be legal?
You are volunteering to work for free in exchange for getting experience you believe is worth the time you are putting into it. If you don't want to do the job for free then don't do it. It is not forced labor. It is voluntary.I guess my view and question revolves more around, how can it be legal?
I am not sure how you are characterizing this as a scam. If you went into the internship with the understanding you would get paid but then they did not pay you and you worked all summer then it would be a scam. This is a known condition of the internship. If you don't like it then don't do it. You have a choice and know exactly what you are getting into. There is no scam.Actually it’s not. It’s the only place in this country where people can legally have free labor (other than volunteering of course). It’s a scam and should be illegal. I could be persuaded that the job should be paid minimum wage, but they should not get hired help for free.
This part seems to escape many people. Maybe these other kids should have been smart enough to be born into a more well off family.The victim of the unpaid internship system isn’t your son. It’s the person that can’t do the unpaid internship because he needs to pay his rent and eat. And then can’t get the six-figure job later because he doesn’t have the experience that your son has.
So if my neighbor was a manager at Walmart and he had a very nice swimming pool and I agreed to work at Walmart 20 hours a week in exchange for free use of his pool, is that OK? I believe that would be against the law. Walmart is not allowed to do that.You are volunteering to work for free in exchange for getting experience you believe is worth the time you are putting into it. If you don't want to do the job for free then don't do it. It is not forced labor. It is voluntary.
Now you are discussing a barter system for services rendered. It's like the concrete guy putting in a driveway for his neighbor the electrician in exchange for the electrician putting in landscape lighting in the concrete guys yard. Should that be illegal? If all parties are in agreement and know what the terms are it shouldn't be an issue.So if my neighbor was a manager at Walmart and he had a very nice swimming pool and I agreed to work at Walmart 20 hours a week in exchange for free use of his pool, is that OK? I believe that would be against the law. Walmart is not allowed to do that.
Well then it shouldn’t be an issue if I’m willing to work for a company for five dollars an hour, but it is.Now you are discussing a barter system for services rendered. It's like the concrete guy putting in a driveway for his neighbor the electrician in exchange for the electrician putting in landscape lighting in the concrete guys yard. Should that be illegal? If all parties are in agreement and know what the terms are it shouldn't be an issue.
Wait, did the employer explicitly state that she had to take on unpaid work? It sounds like she would have been hired if, for example, she'd had a paid internship somewhere.One of my nieces just got denied a job in marketing because they don’t have enough experience post graduation. How is that fair to tell them take on unpaid work at the expense of missing bills etc?
There are labor laws and I understand that. However, people do barter for services all the time outside the lawsWell then it shouldn’t be an issue if I’m willing to work for a company for five dollars an hour, but it is.
Why does course credit have to be a prerequisite for an unpaid internship? The purpose is to gain experience whether you are getting school credit or not.I don't agree with unpaid internship unless you are getting course credit. My son did 18months over 3 years of paid internships.
I just don't understand what that has to do with the op. I didn't get a couple jobs because I didn't have enough experience
It has replaced on job training, shrugsWhat does not having enough experience have to do with an unpaid internship
There is a lot of discussion of this in the research world. A move to require pay for undergraduate students interning in labs the result would be that nearly all the opportunities would disappear. Many good internships are learning experiences that generate little to no value to the employer.The victim of the unpaid internship system isn’t your son. It’s the person that can’t do the unpaid internship because he needs to pay his rent and eat. And then can’t get the six-figure job later because he doesn’t have the experience that your son has.
So what if the opportunities disappear? Then the same companies would eventually have to hire inexperienced workers as employees.There is a lot of discussion of this in the research world. A move to require pay for undergraduate students interning in labs the result would be that nearly all the opportunities would disappear. Many good internships are learning experiences that generate little to no value to the employer.
I say tomato, you say “WAAAAAHHHHHH”.Actually it’s not. It’s the only place in this country where people can legally have free labor (other than volunteering of course). It’s a scam and should be illegal. I could be persuaded that the job should be paid minimum wage, but they should not get hired help for free.
And that’s what you want?So what if the opportunities disappear? Then the same companies would eventually have to hire inexperienced workers as employees.
No, I want to people that are doing work to get paidAnd that’s what you want?
You do know that the majority of people in this country DONT go to college, right? Many of them don’t have the support systems you mentioned. They make it happen on the daily. I was one of them.I honestly don't know how kids coming right out of school start off. I was fortunate to go to a good grad school straight from college so I had a well paying job right from the beginning. If you weren't able to get sufficient experience while in school (during the summer for instance) and you need to pay the bills (don't have the luxury of being able to live at home, be on your parents health insurance, have parents that will give you spending money), that puts you in a really tough spot; certainly a lot harder than those folks that have those parental accommodations.
They aren’t doing productive work. They’re doing what the majority of paid people do at places that offer internship - nothing.No, I want to people that are doing work to get paid
If that’s the case, then the internship or more importantly, hiring somebody that had an internship, doesn’t seem necessaryThey aren’t doing productive work. They’re doing what the majority of paid people do at places that offer internship - nothing.
They have no experience and they bring nothing to the table. In fact, they’re more than likely a financial burden on the company.
Now you want a company to pay for somebody that brings nothing to the table?
If you're talking about high school grads, then the majority do in fact go to college. Regardless, I thought we were talking about people graduating from college and needing experience to get their first job.You do know that the majority of people in this country DONT go to college, right? Many of them don’t have the support systems you mentioned. They make it happen on the daily. I was one of them.
If you don’t have kids it ain’t that hard. You just have to work.
Hey man. I hope it all works out for ya. I honestly do.If that’s the case, then the internship or more importantly, hiring somebody that had an internship, doesn’t seem necessary
I wasn’t.If you're talking about high school grads, then the majority do in fact go to college. Regardless, I thought we were talking about people graduating from college and needing experience to get their first job.
This. There was a guy in my law school class who was able to get an unpaid internship with a sports agent because his father in law was rich. I would have loved that position and I had much better grades and the guys at the agency firm really liked me, but I couldn't afford an unpaid position.The victim of the unpaid internship system isn’t your son. It’s the person that can’t do the unpaid internship because he needs to pay his rent and eat. And then can’t get the six-figure job later because he doesn’t have the experience that your son has.
While its a fair point, that might not always necessarily be the case. A lot of times, companies will try and squeeze more out of existing employees. Or companies might outsource more. I just don't think that its safe to assume that if companies can't find people with the right experience, they'll start hiring people without the right experience.So what if the opportunities disappear? Then the same companies would eventually have to hire inexperienced workers as employees.
I worked for a company that had something like thatI'd be ok with making unpaid internships illegal with some conditions. The main one being that if you take a job with absolutely no experience (making you a total liability for a certain amount of time) you agree (via an actual enforceable contract) to work for the company for a certain amount of time once your training is complete and you're actually contributing. (obviously the time period would vary by position). Otherwise, you owe them some $$ back.
Good companies invest in people, especially young people new to their industry. But if you're spending a year getting a college kid up to speed and they jump ship to a competitor the second you've finished training them (once they're finally able to realize some value from their investment) your motivation to train new people goes away pretty quickly.
I like the idea of that. Does it seem reasonable that wage they'll get paid after that reduced pay training period be within the ballpark of what they can get elsewhere?I'd be ok with making unpaid internships illegal with some conditions. The main one being that if you take a job with absolutely no experience (making you a total liability for a certain amount of time) you agree (via an actual enforceable contract) to work for the company for a certain amount of time once your training is complete and you're actually contributing. (obviously the time period would vary by position). Otherwise, you owe them some $$ back.
Good companies invest in people, especially young people new to their industry. But if you're spending a year getting a college kid up to speed and they jump ship to a competitor the second you've finished training them (once they're finally able to realize some value from their investment) your motivation to train new people goes away pretty quickly.
Obviously we're all being vague here (in terms of "how much" and "how long and what "in the ballpark" means by %) and each position is different. But if you're now "forced" to pay someone to be a trainee for a year (gaining basic, entry level knowledge and experience that they used to get as an unpaid intern) you have to get SOME sort of benefit for it on the back end. Otherwise, what's the motivation? You're better off just waiting until someone else trains a smart college grad and then hiring them away for a small raise.I like the idea of that. Does it seem reasonable that wage they'll get paid after that reduced pay training period be within the ballpark of what they can get elsewhere?
If it had been a paid internship, do you think that you would have been picked over the guy with the rich dad?The victim of the unpaid internship system isn’t your son. It’s the person that can’t do the unpaid internship because he needs to pay his rent and eat. And then can’t get the six-figure job later because he doesn’t have the experience that your son has.
This. There was a guy in my law school class who was able to get an unpaid internship with a sports agent because his father in law was rich. I would have loved that position and I had much better grades and the guys at the agency firm really liked me, but I couldn't afford an unpaid position.
He ended up with a career in professional sports and has made tens of millions of dollars. I ended up grinding my way through mid-level firms for 20 years.
The common defense of the unpaid internship is that, even if the role doesn't exactly pay, it will pay off eventually in the form of a job. Turns out, the data suggests that defense is wrong, at least when it comes to college students.
For three years, the National Association of Colleges and Employers has asked graduating seniors if they've received a job offer and if they've ever had either a paid or unpaid internship. And for three years, it's reached the same conclusion: Unpaid internships don't seem to give college kids much of a leg up when it comes time to look for employment.
This year, NACE queried more than 9,200 seniors from February through the end of April. They found that 63.1 percent of students with a paid internship under their belt had received at least one job offer. But only 37 percent of former unpaid interns could say the same -- a negligible 1.8 percentage points more than students who had never interned.
The results were even worse when it came to salary. Among students who found jobs, former unpaid interns were actually offered less money than those with no internship experience.
"While there's a stark difference between having a paid internship and no internship in terms of offer rates and median salary, it all pretty much seems to wash away when you're talking about unpaid internships versus no internships at all," Edwin Nace, NACE's research director, told me.
Those findings dovetailed with data I tracked down from Intern Bridge, a widely cited consulting firm that specializes in college recruiting. The firm runs a huge annual survey of intern salaries, and I asked them to pull some unpublished numbers from their 2012 poll. Their findings showed that college students were about twice as likely to receive a job offer at the conclusion of a paid internship than at the end of an unpaid internship.
I appreciate that, but this thread really doesn’t apply to me. It will likely apply to my kids in the near future.Hey man. I hope it all works out for ya. I honestly do.
I do understand your point. I just think it’s not so black and white.
GL bud.
Thank you for making such an important point that I had honestly never considered. I obviously had a major blindspot on this topic.The victim of the unpaid internship system isn’t your son. It’s the person that can’t do the unpaid internship because he needs to pay his rent and eat. And then can’t get the six-figure job later because he doesn’t have the experience that your son has.
For the same reason it's legal for colleges to use student labor, whether that labor is helping a professor on his research project, or helping a sports team win games.I guess my view and question revolves more around, how can it be legal?
Same here, but our area (engineering) has plenty of opportunities for paid work as students, so an unpaid position wouldn't garner much interest.We don’t do a ton of internships but they are all paid
Very likely it would have been me or one of two other people in the class that had better grades than this guy. I was the only person in the class that aced the final, which was revising an actual NFL player contract to more favorable terms for the player. When I discussed my final with the visiting professor (a former player agent who went on to bigger things), I learned of the unpaid internship.If it had been a paid internship, do you think that you would have been picked over the guy with the rich dad?