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Derek Chauvin trial. Murder of George Floyd. Convictions now appealed.


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On 4/7/2021 at 2:56 AM, John123 said:

I'm not watching or listening to any of the testimony but I am reading daily summaries from an attorney who is watching the trial and providing analysis.  

I think @timschochet is accurately describing what you say here

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1 minute ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

You posting style has changed quite a bit imo since Biden took office, but this is something else. 
 

Seriously, wtf ?

You'd think that after Trump rode off into the sunset and their guy was in charge things would have gotten better.  Instead it seems some have gone off the deep end.  Maybe it's the fact that Biden is just as bad or worse, I dunno.  

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Dr Tobin testimony this morning and imho he came off as a very credible, unbiased witness. He is not a paid witness. The key testimony was on his opinion specifically about cause of death: low oxygen (aka hypoxia and asphyxia). The cause of low oxygen: shallow breathing. The cause of shallow breathing: George Floyds position, restraint, and Derek Chauvin's weight. He also said the specific position of Chauvin's knee didn't really matter as far as restricting breathing goes.

He kept involving the jury directly - when he discussed breathing and the movement of the rib cage he asked the jury to take a breath and feel their ribs move. Later, when he discussed the knee on the neck, he walked the jury through using their thumb and finger to feel their necks when they breath. 

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1 minute ago, tonydead said:

You'd think that after Trump rode off into the sunset and their guy was in charge things would have gotten better.  Instead it seems some have gone off the deep end.  Maybe it's the fact that Biden is just as bad or worse, I dunno.  

Nothing has changed or will change.  Sides have been drawn and positions taken. Polarization has baked in and what we’re all left with is the detritus.  

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19 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

Dr Tobin testimony this morning and imho he came off as a very credible, unbiased witness. He is not a paid witness. The key testimony was on his opinion specifically about cause of death: low oxygen (aka hypoxia and asphyxia). The cause of low oxygen: shallow breathing. The cause of shallow breathing: George Floyds position, restraint, and Derek Chauvin's weight. He also said the specific position of Chauvin's knee didn't really matter as far as restricting breathing goes.

He kept involving the jury directly - when he discussed breathing and the movement of the rib cage he asked the jury to take a breath and feel their ribs move. Later, when he discussed the knee on the neck, he walked the jury through using their thumb and finger to feel their necks when they breath. 

I agree.  Very good testimony.  When the medical testimony matches up with the video, I just don't see how anybody could say that the police, at the very least, weren't negligent.

I don't want to get into whether or not they wanted him dead.  I'm not sure about that, but responsible for his death??  I don't see how any other argument could be made.

 

Edited by Guido Merkins
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5 hours ago, timschochet said:

This is highly problematic of how far too many conservatives view society, unfortunately. When you begin with the premise that the mainstream media’s reporting can not be trusted, your conclusions are bound to be far removed from reality. 

Tim....the US mainstream media sucks outside the thirty minutes they allocate to their "just the facts ma'am" segments.  This isn't up for debate.  They put on TV and web what will grab your attention to allow them to farm you of your time.  Whatever it takes to keep your attention is what's going to be on their shows/programs.

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21 minutes ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

Dr Tobin testimony this morning and imho he came off as a very credible, unbiased witness. He is not a paid witness. The key testimony was on his opinion specifically about cause of death: low oxygen (aka hypoxia and asphyxia). The cause of low oxygen: shallow breathing. The cause of shallow breathing: George Floyds position, restraint, and Derek Chauvin's weight. He also said the specific position of Chauvin's knee didn't really matter as far as restricting breathing goes.

He kept involving the jury directly - when he discussed breathing and the movement of the rib cage he asked the jury to take a breath and feel their ribs move. Later, when he discussed the knee on the neck, he walked the jury through using their thumb and finger to feel their necks when they breath. 

I'm assuming the defense will counter with the fact that fentanyl causes respiratory depression and brain hypoxia?  Even at low levels and increases dramatically with higher doses.  Fentanyl is 400 times more worse than morphine and 10 times worse than heroine in restricting oxygen to the brain. 

Fentanyl kills you by binding with the endorphin-releasing receptors. It messes up your body so it cannot respond to low levels of oxygen or high levels of carbon dioxide. Those are the two things that tell your brain, and in turn your lungs, that you need to breathe.

They might point out that Floyd started complaining he couldn't breath while they were trying to get him in the back seat, before he was ever taken to the ground.

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, tonydead said:

They might point out that Floyd started complaining he couldn't breath while they were trying to get him in the back seat, before he was ever taken to the ground.

 

I understand your point, but then why didn't the police call for medical attention then or allow for medical assistance when it was offered? Instead they allowed him to go unconscious on the ground while handcuffed behind his back.

Do you think the police have a duty to help someone who claims they can't breathe? Do you think putting your knee and body weight on the neck of someone who said they can't breathe helps?

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48 minutes ago, tonydead said:

You'd think that after Trump rode off into the sunset and their guy was in charge things would have gotten better.  Instead it seems some have gone off the deep end.  Maybe it's the fact that Biden is just as bad or worse, I dunno.  

You think it’s off the deep end to for me to believe that there are people here rooting for Chauvin to be acquitted and don’t want to admit it? That’s your privilege  of course. Nonetheless it’s what I believe. 

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17 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Tim....the US mainstream media sucks outside the thirty minutes they allocate to their "just the facts ma'am" segments.  This isn't up for debate.  They put on TV and web what will grab your attention to allow them to farm you of your time.  Whatever it takes to keep your attention is what's going to be on their shows/programs.

I know you think this. I know that it’s not due to any partisanship on your part. I respect your thinking and I partially agree with you. I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as you’re presenting here but that’s just a difference by degrees. 

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5 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

I understand your point, but then why didn't the police call for medical attention then or allow for medical assistance when it was offered? Instead they allowed him to go unconscious on the ground while handcuffed behind his back.

Do you think the police have a duty to help someone who claims they can't breathe? Do you think putting your knee and body weight on the neck of someone who said they can't breathe helps?

See John123’s source provided earlier for expert testimony around why this could be

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I know you think this. I know that it’s not due to any partisanship on your part. I respect your thinking and I partially agree with you. I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as you’re presenting here but that’s just a difference by degrees. 

Is it ok to want a fair trial and to rely on this trial process and findings of the jury as justice?

In what world does Timschochet know better than this?

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4 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

I understand your point, but then why didn't the police call for medical attention then or allow for medical assistance when it was offered? Instead they allowed him to go unconscious on the ground while handcuffed behind his back.

Do you think the police have a duty to help someone who claims they can't breathe? Do you think putting your knee and body weight on the neck of someone who said they can't breathe helps?

I was speaking from a defense perspective. 

Do we know who called the ambulance?  I'm assuming the 911 operator for sure, but, do we know the police did not call for medical?

I agree with most of what you said and if I were betting I would wager manslaughter, not murder, because of those things.

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1 minute ago, djmich said:

Is it ok to want a fair trial and to rely on this trial process and findings of the jury as justice?

In what world does Timschochet know better than this?

Of course. It’s what hopefully everybody wants. 

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9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

You think it’s off the deep end to for me to believe that there are people here rooting for Chauvin to be acquitted and don’t want to admit it? That’s your privilege  of course. Nonetheless it’s what I believe. 

You are in the George Floyd trial thread and have managed to make 2 pages worth of posts about you and your MSM instead of George.  Let that sink in.

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1 minute ago, tonydead said:

You are in the George Floyd trial thread and have managed to make 2 pages worth of posts about you and your MSM instead of George.  Let that sink in.

I wish the MSM was mine. I’d be a lot richer. 

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1 minute ago, djmich said:

Is it...I see most people in this thread have already convicted him?

I want a fair trial.  I guess yes I have made a decision already. 

Seeing the video along with the experts so far, it is hard for me to fathom how the police didn't roll him over on his side or start CPR, but instead kept him in the prone position and put their body weight on him for over 9 minutes.

No attempt to try and blame drugs gets around the fact that the guy was in distress and they didn't do anything to help him except call EMS.

I don't know if that's homicide or manslaughter, but it's one of the two.

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12 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

I tend to agree that a manslaughter conviction could be the likely outcome.

How do you think the public would react to that?

2nd degree murder - not guilty

3rd degree murder - not guilty

2nd degree manslaughter - guilty

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1 minute ago, tonydead said:

How do you think the public would react to that?

2nd degree murder - not guilty

3rd degree murder - not guilty

2nd degree manslaughter - guilty

Not well, I fear. But better than if he was totally acquitted. Third degree murder may be the best compromise, however we're not looking for "compromise" only justice for all involved.

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8 minutes ago, Guido Merkins said:

I want a fair trial.  I guess yes I have made a decision already. 

Seeing the video along with the experts so far, it is hard for me to fathom how the police didn't roll him over on his side or start CPR, but instead kept him in the prone position and put their body weight on him for over 9 minutes.

No attempt to try and blame drugs gets around the fact that the guy was in distress and they didn't do anything to help him except call EMS.

I don't know if that's homicide or manslaughter, but it's one of the two.

And this isn't even factoring in that people, including an EMT, offered to help and they refused.

I just don't see how it isn't at least manslaughter at that point.

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I'm I reading the room correctly, that most people here just want this guy to be found guilty of something even if it's just manslaughter? 

2nd degree murder comes with 10 -15 years.

3rd degree murder comes with 10 - 15 years.

2nd degree manslaughter comes with 41-47 months.

How does the public react if it's only 2nd degree manslaughter?

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4 minutes ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

And this isn't even factoring in that people, including an EMT, offered to help and they refused.

I just don't see how it isn't at least manslaughter at that point.

There are a ton of reasons the police wouldn't just let some rando in the neighborhood provide medical attention.

Edited by tonydead
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6 minutes ago, tonydead said:

I'm I reading the room correctly, that most people here just want this guy to be found guilty of something even if it's just manslaughter? 

2nd degree murder comes with 10 -15 years.

3rd degree murder comes with 10 - 15 years.

2nd degree manslaughter comes with 41-47 months.

How does the public react if it's only 2nd degree manslaughter?

Pretty sure that's not correct.

edited:  I did find this, presumptive sentence is 41 months, but could be 10 years

https://www.newsweek.com/derek-chauvin-charges-why-accused-manslaughter-murder-george-floyd-1579771

 

Edited by Guido Merkins
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6 minutes ago, tonydead said:

I'm I reading the room correctly, that most people here just want this guy to be found guilty of something even if it's just manslaughter? 

2nd degree murder comes with 10 -15 years.

3rd degree murder comes with 10 - 15 years.

2nd degree manslaughter comes with 41-47 months.

How does the public react if it's only 2nd degree manslaughter?

Not that that should be the reason to be found guilty, but there will be protesting and rioting if he is only found guilty of manslaughter.

Edited by lazyike
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The Newsweek one I shared above has 10 years with a presumptive sentence of 41-57 months....so we probably are both right in some instances....

As far as whether or not that's enough, I'm not sure.  For some it will be.  For others it won't be.  To me, when I think of manslaughter, I usually think 5-10 years is about right.  

 

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3 minutes ago, tonydead said:

There are a ton of reasons the police wouldn't let some rando in the neighborhood provide medical attention.

Fair, but if a EMT watching on the sidelines could clearly see something was wrong (and was telling the cops so) and the 911 dispatcher thought the live footage was frozen because of how long Chauvin was on him, how could the cops not realize anything was wrong and how can that not be considered negligent conduct?

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28 minutes ago, djmich said:
32 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Of course. It’s what hopefully everybody wants. 

Is it...I see most people in this thread have already convicted him?

Nothing wrong with the peanut gallery making up their minds at any given point -- he can't be convicted by anyone but who's in the courtroom. No one outside the courtroom owes Chauvin the benefit of the doubt, though any individual may decide to grant it all the same.

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6 minutes ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

Fair, but if a EMT watching on the sidelines could clearly see something was wrong (and was telling the cops so) and the 911 dispatcher thought the live footage was frozen because of how long Chauvin was on him, how could the cops not realize anything was wrong and how can that not be considered negligent conduct?

This has been covered in the testimony of the trial.

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2 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Nothing wrong with the peanut gallery making up their minds at any given point -- he can't be convicted by anyone but who's in the courtroom. No one outside the courtroom owes Chauvin the benefit of the doubt, though any individual may decide to grant it all the same.

Of course, but I’m not sure how you can reconcile wanting to rely on the findings of the jury while having your own mind made up.

Seems to me that’s a contradiction that will expose itself if the jury concludes something other than what, in this case Tim, believes.

The jury and the system will be pilloried.  Which is fine, but not sure how you can say that you’re ok relying in the jury...because you’re not.

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Just now, John123 said:

This has been covered in the testimony of the trial.

A lot of us are not watching every moment or reading the link that someone else posted as a guess as to what lawyer you were following.

 

While not necessary, it would be helpful for the conversation if you gave a brief description of what was covered 

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Just now, djmich said:

Of course, but I’m not sure how you can reconcile wanting to rely on the findings of the jury while having your own mind made up.

That must be someone else. I don't feel the need to wait on the findings of the jury -- since I don't have any power over the situation, it's not incumbent on me to exercise any restraint or to reserve judgment. Others' mileage may vary.

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10 minutes ago, Bucsfan5493 said:

Fair, but if a EMT watching on the sidelines could clearly see something was wrong (and was telling the cops so) and the 911 dispatcher thought the live footage was frozen because of how long Chauvin was on him, how could the cops not realize anything was wrong and how can that not be considered negligent conduct?

Agree, that's why I'm betting on manslaughter.  4 years max, a year or two off for good behavior.

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15 minutes ago, Guido Merkins said:

I don't recall them explaining this.  I have missed some pieces.  What did they say??

It was covered during the testimony of the use of force experts, both for the MPD and the LAPD.  The defense asked them if, when making arrests, people being arrested try all sorts of things to get out of being arrested, including faking medical issues.  All use of force experts agreed it was common.  So, there are judgments that have to be made.

Also, the paramedics had been called and should have been there in just a few minutes.  For whatever reason it took them several times as long as it should have.  The cops had every reason to believe the EMT's would be there much sooner than they were. 

It's also worth noting that there was a hostile crowd surrounding the scene.  The EMT's who arrived wouldn't work on Floyd at the scene.  They shoved him in their amublance and drove several blocks away before administering any medical care.

IOW, there were a lot of factors that everyone involved had to weigh.

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2 minutes ago, John123 said:

It was covered during the testimony of the use of force experts, both for the MPD and the LAPD.  The defense asked them if, when making arrests, people being arrested try all sorts of things to get out of being arrested, including faking medical issues.  All use of force experts agreed it was common.  So, there are judgments that have to be made.

Also, the paramedics had been called and should have been there in just a few minutes.  For whatever reason it took them several times as long as it should have.  The cops had every reason to believe the EMT's would be there much sooner than they were. 

It's also worth noting that there was a hostile crowd surrounding the scene.  The EMT's who arrived wouldn't work on Floyd at the scene.  They shoved him in their amublance and drove several blocks away before administering any medical care.

IOW, there were a lot of factors that everyone involved had to weigh.

Thanks for the explanation

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39 minutes ago, lazyike said:

Not that that should be the reason to be found guilty, but there will be protesting and rioting if he is only found guilty of manslaughter.

I don’t think so. IMO, the rioting only occurs if he walks free. Otherwise you may hear angry voices but no rioting. 

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9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I don’t think so. IMO, the rioting only occurs if he walks free. Otherwise you may hear angry voices but no rioting. 

Disagree.  There will be guaranteed rioting/looting/burning/pillaging on this if he's only convicted of manslaughter.  It's what your side of the aisle does when things don't work out the way you want them.  :shrug:

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

..... You blame the MSM for giving you cause to disbelieve them. I don’t buy that; I hold that the MSM has remained largely truthful and that right wing radio has lied to you about this, and you have accepted the lie. ....

 

Direct Headline: The 10 Worst, Most Embarrassing U.S. Media Failures on the Trump-Russia Story

The most challenging task is choosing the 10 worst embarrassments. The most notable aspect is that they all go toward promoting the same narrative.

Glenn Greenwald January 20 2019, 2:39 p.m.

https://theintercept.com/2019/01/20/beyond-buzzfeed-the-10-worst-most-embarrassing-u-s-media-failures-on-the-trumprussia-story/

 

Direct Headline:C-SPAN suspends Scully after he admits to lie about hack

By DAVID BAUDEROctober 15, 2020

https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-joe-biden-donald-trump-anthony-scaramucci-4657ccd8f5e51d1ce113290b9304f9d5

 

Direct Headline: Washington Post Correction Triggers Furious Debate About Whether False Report Influenced Georgia Senate Race

By Christina Zhao On 3/15/21 at 6:06 PM EDT

https://www.newsweek.com/washington-post-correction-triggers-furious-debate-about-whether-false-report-influenced-georgia-1576326

 

******

Let's all watch Tim parse down what "largely" actually means.

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

Tim....the US mainstream media sucks outside the thirty minutes they allocate to their "just the facts ma'am" segments.  This isn't up for debate.  They put on TV and web what will grab your attention to allow them to farm you of your time.  Whatever it takes to keep your attention is what's going to be on their shows/programs.

I really wish that was the case.  But people go into journalism to be social justice activists. That is what schools put out and that is painfully obvious in every mainstream newscast.  It is all about advancing narratives and agendas.  

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44 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Disagree.  There will be guaranteed rioting/looting/burning/pillaging on this if he's only convicted of manslaughter.  It's what your side of the aisle does when things don't work out the way you want them.  :shrug:

What side of the aisle? We know what the Trump side of the aisle did on January 6th when what they were falsely  led  by Trump that he won the election.

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4 hours ago, timschochet said:

Oh I’m guessing there are some folks here who are actively rooting for him to be acquitted. I don’t expect anyone to admit this though. 

I think you are right tim.   I think there are quite a few people around here want him to get off so they can burn  this down.

 

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  • NorvilleBarnes changed the title to Derek Chauvin trial. Murder of George Floyd. Convictions now appealed.

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