timschochet
Footballguy
No idea how you got any of that from what I wrote but OK.
And nowhere in my post did I discuss my own income which isn’t even relevant.
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Declaration of War begins on the Middle Class starting Today! (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ministry of Pain
- Start date
And nowhere in my post did I discuss my own income which isn’t even relevant.
Redwes25
Footballguy
What is your point? No one is proposing to raise their taxes or anyone close to that level of income. I would think Biden's goal with this plan is to try and help these folks. Weather it will and if this is the best method to do so is a whole other question. I have my doubts and will leave it at that.
Sounds like a bunch of poor people trying to convince themselves they are middle class. And they are the ones that the government has tricked into thinking that raising taxes is a good idea. It's like watching water go down the drain.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I might also add for those playing along at home, Mrs MoP and I work in philanthropy, we raise money at a hospital. They were raising $5M a year when we arrived 4 year ago, last count was $42M last year. Jupiter Island is where Tiger Woods is recuperating and I bet the CEO of Johnson and Johnson likely has a house next to his, its one of the largest pockets of wealth along a strip of beach in Florida I've ever seen. And we try as hard as we can to separate them from their money without forcing them thru taxes.
I understand wealth and wealthy people, I run in these circles even though I am not like them. Gift Officers walk a fine line trying to get into these folks heads and what makes them tick. Then I turn around and I got a teacher, an accountant and a Swedish Fish clerk fighting over the definition of Middle Class...
C'mon folks, work with me here. Are we really going to say Middle Class starts at about $16.50 an hour in here?
I understand wealth and wealthy people, I run in these circles even though I am not like them. Gift Officers walk a fine line trying to get into these folks heads and what makes them tick. Then I turn around and I got a teacher, an accountant and a Swedish Fish clerk fighting over the definition of Middle Class...
C'mon folks, work with me here. Are we really going to say Middle Class starts at about $16.50 an hour in here?
You're just willing to take another 2.6% off before taxes? You're going to have to work extra hard, or get lucky to put that money to work for you just to get it all back. Lots of people going to be figuring out how to stay just under the threshold, that's probably easier.
Redwes25
Footballguy
Would you work harder to make an extra 100k if you after tax income went down by 2,600? I sure as hell am and imagine most people in that situation would say that same.
the moops
Footballguy
This is most assuredly not true. Nobody is going to voluntarily reduce their income to $399,999 in order to not pay an extra $2.60 in taxes on every $100 over that that threshold
There are Starbucks on every damn corner selling frappucinos to people. That's not extra-ordinary, neither should buying a new car be. Have you seen the new car lots around everywhere, been down to the docks watching the unload them by the thousands? It's the American dream to be able to do those things. We can't let your version be the definition of middle class.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
A person making $16.50, less than a starting teacher's salary is Middle Class to you? My point is w have a warped view of what Middle Class is these days.
Poor to me is anyone who work and also receives assistance, or is faced with having a minimum salary or wage type job vs losing their benefits for unemployment.
I wish we would reward those who work hard for their hourly wages and give them a direct supplement to bring them up a level or two. You work 40 hours a week, you will have a decent place to live, running car, be able to eat comfortably, have some time for family and friends, these things shouldn't have to be made into choices.
Does anyone in here know someone who really works hard for $15 an hour a week? Are they living better than paycheck to paycheck? That is working poor IMHO, sorry you all don't see it as I do.
That's not what I meant. There will be ways to harbor the extra income. Plenty of loopholes already, I'm sure Biden will "inadvertently" make some more. He's trying to thread the needle here, just like his corporate income tax, trying to appease the radical left by doing something while still making sure he takes care of the people that have greased his palms.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Out of that $100k I'm shooting for, I already know at least 40% or more is going to get eaten...Now we are already under $60k and then we got to throw some more at taxes...thank goodness there are a few people still earning some big bucks that punch clocks for a living that we can aim are Tax Howitzers at.
You all make it look like $97,400 is being kept, bologna I say.
Redwes25
Footballguy
huh, this is pointless. I gave you the median income in this country. I am not trying to debate where middle class starts and it is not a real issue with the plan in question since no one is going to raise taxes of people making 65k. Biden has proposed raising taxes on people making over 400k (if he has said differently let me know). I am saying you make over 400k you are not middle class.
There are reasons to dislike this bill but saying raising taxes on middle class is not one of them based on proposal I have seen.
Redwes25
Footballguy
what kind of logic is it to say 2.6% on mariginal income over 400k is going to stop people from trying to make over 400k
Amused to Death
Footballguy
The average household income in 2020 was under $100,000. A household income of $400,000 put you in the 98th percentile. Reminder: households making $400,000 are NOT affected by the Biden tax plan.
So yeah, by no measure is an income of $400K "middle class". Sorry, you're just not.
Apologies for my contribution to
So yeah, by no measure is an income of $400K "middle class". Sorry, you're just not.
Apologies for my contribution to
Redwes25
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
It's amazing that everyone in the country doesn't reduce their taxable income down to 40K in order to avoid marginal rate increase from 12% to 22%
Google ways to lower your adjusted gross income and report back. Nobody said anything about taking a pay cut.
No one said everyone. That's the problem with this whole discussion, you want to put everyone in a nice clean bucket, a bucket where somehow buying a new car and frequenting Starbucks makes you rich.
I promise you where the dollars make sense, there are plenty of people that drive their taxable income down under 40K and take advantage of a lower tax bracket. It's fiscally irresponsible not to.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Must run errands and be gone for much fo the rest of the day so I am guessing the inbox is going to be like 47 when I get back.
Folks, from the @bigbottomof my heart, pleas have fun in here and don't take things too seriously. We've had swedish fish and tuna fish flying about, let's keep it in good spirits, I certainly think I've been treated fair so far for firing this thread up but I felt like it needed to be said and wanted to get the pulse of folks.
What I am asking is that we all take it easy on each other and keep it classy San Diego. I will try and answer all the posts. I appreciate all of you coming in here and breathing life into the topic. If I offended anyone with my POV on money in general, please know it was only meant to try speak out for all the hard working people. My son is working overnights at Publix right now, 45-50 hours a week, I'm sure there are more like him but even there at Publix, he just takes advantage of what others won't. My wife's work, why do so many folks not contribute to their 401Ks? We max it out but so many don't save a dollar and say they cannot afford to save...and they are making decent money according to most of you.
Just keep those gloves up and I don't want to see any hitting below the belt
Folks, from the @bigbottomof my heart, pleas have fun in here and don't take things too seriously. We've had swedish fish and tuna fish flying about, let's keep it in good spirits, I certainly think I've been treated fair so far for firing this thread up but I felt like it needed to be said and wanted to get the pulse of folks.
What I am asking is that we all take it easy on each other and keep it classy San Diego. I will try and answer all the posts. I appreciate all of you coming in here and breathing life into the topic. If I offended anyone with my POV on money in general, please know it was only meant to try speak out for all the hard working people. My son is working overnights at Publix right now, 45-50 hours a week, I'm sure there are more like him but even there at Publix, he just takes advantage of what others won't. My wife's work, why do so many folks not contribute to their 401Ks? We max it out but so many don't save a dollar and say they cannot afford to save...and they are making decent money according to most of you.
Just keep those gloves up and I don't want to see any hitting below the belt
bigbottom
Footballguy
I don’t have a definitive opinion on what I consider to be the appropriate range for middle class income in this country. I’d have to do a lot more research to have an informed opinion on the subject. As I stated earlier, I am simply taking issue with certain (not all) of the numbers you are using to make your point, as they appear to be dramatically inaccurate.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I think that folks who make an hourly wage with a few exceptions think that most people who are on a yearly salary are wealthy.
And by that POV, that's a lot of folks making just barely more than the average hourly worker. Teachers in Florida were given a pay raise to start out...still think it's under $50K a year which is absurd.
And then you have salaried employees who then resent their mid-level manager boss because he gets a yearly bonus added on to their salary or makes a quarterly bonus paid out for meeting their goals.
Then the Mid-level Manager hates his boss, the CFO who is making the big bucks, 6 figures and that guy is RICH!
This is how many think or feel out there. I wonder if we asked the guy making fries at McDonald's for $15 an hour if they feel like they are Middle Class citizens.
I think we need a definition because the President has announced his and since you think many of the numbers I spit out are a little eye popping, I'd like to hear what others think it cost monthly to have a Family of 4 in this country in 2021.
bigbottom
Footballguy
I definitely agree with the points you make above in that things are always relative and our perspectives are often impacted (clouded) by our own personal situation.
bigbottom
Footballguy
This has been a very interesting discussion. I’m glad you started the thread.Must run errands and be gone for much fo the rest of the day so I am guessing the inbox is going to be like 47 when I get back.
Folks, from the @bigbottomof my heart, pleas have fun in here and don't take things too seriously. We've had swedish fish and tuna fish flying about, let's keep it in good spirits, I certainly think I've been treated fair so far for firing this thread up but I felt like it needed to be said and wanted to get the pulse of folks.
What I am asking is that we all take it easy on each other and keep it classy San Diego. I will try and answer all the posts. I appreciate all of you coming in here and breathing life into the topic. If I offended anyone with my POV on money in general, please know it was only meant to try speak out for all the hard working people. My son is working overnights at Publix right now, 45-50 hours a week, I'm sure there are more like him but even there at Publix, he just takes advantage of what others won't. My wife's work, why do so many folks not contribute to their 401Ks? We max it out but so many don't save a dollar and say they cannot afford to save...and they are making decent money according to most of you.
Just keep those gloves up and I don't want to see any hitting below the belt
Bucsfan5493
Footballguy
Going on 5+ pages and @Ministry of Pain has still yet to address any of the facts that show how wrong and out of touch he is.
Redwes25
Footballguy
Tax advisers aren't cheap. Lowering income and using complex tax strategies can save the wealthy significant amount of money in taxes but no one is going to that expense to lower their income to $399,999. It makes no sense. They are setting up these strategies weather or not the marginal rate is 2.6% higher and are doing it now. formerfourdigit
Footballguy
? I couldn't make it to page 2.
BroadwayG
Footballguy
Things to rule out to help the poors:
1. Raising taxes on the rich - the poors will end up paying for it in the end.
2. Raising minimum wage - unemployment skyrockets and the poors lose their jobs
3. Basic income guarantee - See raising taxes on the rich
Moving the poors further down the economic ladder is really the only thing that helps them. If only they could just see that.
1. Raising taxes on the rich - the poors will end up paying for it in the end.
2. Raising minimum wage - unemployment skyrockets and the poors lose their jobs
3. Basic income guarantee - See raising taxes on the rich
Moving the poors further down the economic ladder is really the only thing that helps them. If only they could just see that.
moleculo
Footballguy
fellas, I think we can all agree that if your family income is X, upper class is approximately X+ $50k .
Everyone wants to define themselves as middle class but as FBG, I need to remind you that we are all supper-elite-upper-tier. This has been established time and time again, this is not a new topic.
Everyone wants to define themselves as middle class but as FBG, I need to remind you that we are all supper-elite-upper-tier. This has been established time and time again, this is not a new topic.
My company pays for my financial advisor. If the dollars work, it's fiscally irresponsible not to adjust your AGI to a lower tax bracket. And take advantage of as many loopholes as possible. Such a weird argument to make assuming people ignore stuff like this.
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I don't think we can agree to either of those. 50K isn't nearly enough to jump up a class and some people think going to Starbucks is a luxury.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
My favorite is how something as lame as whataboutism is used whenever a position can't be defended.
Taxes being raised...$5-6 trillion being spent.
Tax and Spend. Case closed.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Exactly! We should definitely fund our much-needed infrastructure repairs by cutting corporate taxes and cuts to Social Security and Medicaid.
The Commish
Footballguy
This WAS my favorite part. The last four years ruined even that for me. Now they can't even pretend (yes, I know this was probably true for a couple cycles before this...the last "tax cuts" were the final straw that made me tap). I guess the good part is we are talking about gas prices again and how some people think they go up and down based on an individual (much like the crazy stock market talk). I am enjoying the blaming of Biden for the demand going up because things are slowly opening up increasing the demand. It's not like that would have happened under any other President.
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Snorkelson
Footballguy
Man, my volunteer work at the community garden behind my house even sounds poor now. I rebuilt a pergola this past weekend...I might also add for those playing along at home, Mrs MoP and I work in philanthropy, we raise money at a hospital. They were raising $5M a year when we arrived 4 year ago, last count was $42M last year. Jupiter Island is where Tiger Woods is recuperating and I bet the CEO of Johnson and Johnson likely has a house next to his, its one of the largest pockets of wealth along a strip of beach in Florida I've ever seen. And we try as hard as we can to separate them from their money without forcing them thru taxes.
I understand wealth and wealthy people, I run in these circles even though I am not like them. Gift Officers walk a fine line trying to get into these folks heads and what makes them tick. Then I turn around and I got a teacher, an accountant and a Swedish Fish clerk fighting over the definition of Middle Class...
C'mon folks, work with me here. Are we really going to say Middle Class starts at about $16.50 an hour in here?
TripItUp
Footballguy
Ah yes, the Democrat/Socialist answer is to give them fish, a temporary bandaid that fixes nothing long term.
The Republican answer, which is superior, is to teach them to fish.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
Shula-holic
Footballguy
Thanks, and totally agree with all of this. Just read this thread to see how this already is true and happening while the wealthiest skate. It's a great playbook, tax the pretty well off, get them to complain a bit, those below the threshold think it's funny this group claims they aren't well off enough to be included as wealthy. Meanwhile, the ones who are making $1MM in cap gains, the truly wealthy, skate by as the other two groups bicker over whether $400K is well off enough to be the marginal rate cutoff. The focus always stays on that argument because people get outraged someone doing that well could complain and don't see how those folks are drops in the bucket.
The Commish
Footballguy
GoBirds
Footballguy
Yep, it’s brutal but it’s what our liberal friends voted for. They call it infrastructure but it’s really just ramming the Unrealistic Green Deal down our throats.
Insein
Footballguy
Technically nobody needs any money to survive. We can live off the land and grow our own food. Raise our own livestock. Hunt for what we need. Incredibly hard work but it can be done.
We don't do that anymore because we've progressed as a society. People get paid what others are willing to pay them for their services and skills. Some people are overpaid, some way under paid. That's how it works. Saying "nobody needs $x to survive" is a failed argument that doesn't get at the heart of the issue. Because when people work hard and get paid, then don't want government coming in and taking it to give to people that they feel don't work as hard as themselves.
parrot
Footballguy
If the company pays for your advisor, why would you not be trying to reduce your AGI as much as possible regardless of the bracket?
GoBirds
Footballguy
Amused to Death
Footballguy
parrot
Footballguy
And by "give" we mean pay them a fair wage for their labor.
And by "teach" we mean don't support educational funding.
The Democrat's answer is to give them a fish from the guy who's freezer has just a bit more fish than is required to sustain his family, but not touching the supply of the guy who has countless freezers full of fish.
The Republican answer is to point to the lake and tell them there are fish in there, providing no instruction nor equipment to get the fish, and disregarding that rampant deregulation they fought for has made the water toxic and the fish poisonous.
Neither presents a long term solution.
