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Bipartisan infrastructure deal now looks likely to happen? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Take back the country from the woke Socialists. Isn't that what we've been talking about the entire time?
Also, 2016-2020 says "Remember when obstruction was cool?". Painting the GOP as obstructionists shows the only one that needs a history lesson is you.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Negative. But you do you, Tim.
You're the one who started a thread about the need to believe the MSM no matter what. Forgive me if I don't believe you.
timschochet
Footballguy
The point of that thread is that it’s dangerous to replace the truth with revisionism. You’re demonstrating just how dangerous it is.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Really not trying to gaslight you. I just know that you’re not correct in your assertions.YOU'RE the one demonstrating it.
Your gaslighting doesn't work here.
For instance, Bernie on Cuba: he’s praised certain aspects of their programs, such as literacy, but at the same time harshly criticized their lack of democracy, authoritarian government, lack of free press, and political prisoners. Same for Venezuela. His criticism is all the more powerful, IMO, because it’s thoughtful and nuanced and he’s willing to give credit when it’s due. Yet you make him out to be an apologist. That’s just wrong, and it represents false and shallow thinking.
the spanker
Footballguy
We don't like Football, Baseball, Basket Ball, Nascar, voting rights, gun reform, updated infrastructure, Covid relief, Science, $15 minimum wage to help the poor to name a few.Take back the country from the woke Socialists. Isn't that what we've been talking about the entire time?
Also, 2016-2020 says "Remember when obstruction was cool?". Painting the GOP as obstructionists shows the only one that needs a history lesson is you.
But we love out right lies to the American people (election fraud), made up conspiracy theories, insurrection to throw out votes, now voter and protest suppression, to name a few others.
But we're the socialist? Where are the GOP's solutions to the current proposals Democrats have suggested?
The only woke here is from the fear mongering, culture wars, attempted overtake of the government and now subversion for all Americans to have equal access to the polls to vote.
I'm just glad the head of the serpent is no longer in power.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Okay, now you've just started to make stuff up. Why don't you sit this one out for while, take a deep breath and come back when you're under control?
And you probably shouldn't be talking about "Fear Mongering". Again, 2016-2020 say, "Hi! Remember when fear mongering was cool from the left?". I'm not sure if you need a reminder that in this very forum there was a thread started during the the Trump years asking "Are we living in a dictatorship". Who do you think started THAT thread?
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the spanker
Footballguy
When did the Left use fear mongering as a tactic to mislead people? Present YOUR evidence please.
the spanker
Footballguy
bigbottom
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
have you been living in cave the last 5 years? Dictator Trump? RUSSIAN COLLUSION! The Racist Boogeyman around every corner!the spanker said:
It's like you're trying to be obtuse. The left doesn't use fear-mongering - sure.
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
now, is "the left" doing these things or is your conservative outlets telling you "the left" is doing these things?have you been living in cave the last 5 years? Dictator Trump? RUSSIAN COLLUSION! The Racist Boogeyman around every corner!
It's like you're trying to be obtuse. The left doesn't use fear-mongering - sure.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
the only people I know that talk like you either don't bother to actually associate with many people who are on the other side and/or spend waaay to much time in conservative rabbit holes on SM or terrible "news" outlets.
I've said before, for this supposedly being a far left board according to some people around here, I am surprised how you and a couple others constantly get away with general posts about "lefties" and how terrible they are, racist they are, can't think for themselves, etc.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Give me a break. If you think it's me and couple others talking about "lefties", then you aren't reading this board enough. Seriously, your post shows how much you are NOT paying attention at all or selectively remembering things.
We're miniscule compared to what your side says about us.
I got suspended 6 months for saying trump is destroying the environment.
The comment i got is 'have a real discussion'
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I am saying it's different. maybe because I wasn't around the psf a few years ago, I will admit that. I don't see poets like "righties are what's wrong with x", righties don't think for themselves, etc. I see that constantly from you and a few others. just tells people a lot about how you guys view people is all.
(yes, that would go for anybody saying that about conservatives as a whole too)
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I am not a mod, so can't comment on that.
imo that is different than saying "lefties/righties are what's wrong with x", or whatever negative general categorization fly around.
the spanker
Footballguy
You can't be serious right? Let's start with Dictator Trump. You didn't see what the world saw, when he told his cult lackey followers to storm the capitol? Told them I'll be right there with you, then left them high and dry when they asked for pardons???have you been living in cave the last 5 years? Dictator Trump? RUSSIAN COLLUSION! The Racist Boogeyman around every corner!
It's like you're trying to be obtuse. The left doesn't use fear-mongering - sure.
Then after they caused death and destruction Trump told them he LOVED them and that they were special?
Wait......no it can't be can it? Are you one of the guys that were there and the FBI and Secret Service is still looking for?
Now it all adds up.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Don't forgot the true "Alpha" move of hiding while they stormed the capital.You can't be serious right? Let's start with Dictator Trump. You didn't see what the world saw, when he told his cult lackey followers to storm the capitol? Told them I'll be right there with you, then left them high and dry when they asked for pardons???
Then after they caused death and destruction Trump told them he LOVED them and that they were special?
Wait......no it can't be can it? Are you one of the guys that were there and the FBI and Secret Service is still looking for?
Now it all adds up.
So much wrong in here. Lay off CNN/MSNBC.You can't be serious right? Let's start with Dictator Trump. You didn't see what the world saw, when he told his cult lackey followers to storm the capitol? Told them I'll be right there with you, then left them high and dry when they asked for pardons???
Then after they caused death and destruction Trump told them he LOVED them and that they were special?
Wait......no it can't be can it? Are you one of the guys that were there and the FBI and Secret Service is still looking for?
Now it all adds up.
the spanker
Footballguy
"they caused death and deatruction"If there is so much wrong, it should be simple to enlighten us then, right?
the spanker
Footballguy
The so-called leader, who lead them, used them, and was no where to be found when the action started.
Trump even turned on his own: Mike Pence because he wouldn't over turn the certification of the votes.
Pence said look I'm not that stupid and refused to do so because he never had the power to do so. A fact Trump couldn't comprehend, not surprising at all.
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-goes-after-mike-pence-tweet-protesters-storm-capitol-during-joint-session-1559431
the spanker
Footballguy
Reality Fact check."they caused death and deatruction"
https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/what-we-know-about-the-5-people-who-died-during-riot-at-u-s-capitol/
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/capitol-reels-damage-destruction-left-violent-rioters-n1253383
https://www.npr.org/sections/insurrection-at-the-capitol/2021/01/07/954333542/police-confirm-death-of-officer-injured-during-attack-on-capitol
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/07/four-dead-after-pro-trump-rioters-storm-capitol.html
The rally did not cause 5 deaths lol. I don't blame you for believing fake news CNN that the officer was beaten by a fire extinguisher.
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the spanker
Footballguy
Again, back to Earth reality check for you. But then again, you were probably one of the ones who said: Before all is said and done, Trump will remain in office.
I laughed so hard when reality finally revealed itself to them, then there were crickets.
Multiple multiple sources state differently. Here are even more:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/who-died-in-capitol-building-attack.html
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/08/capitol-attack-police-officer-five-deaths
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/01/08/woman-possibly-crushed-to-death-these-are-the-five-people-who-died-amid-pro-trump-riots/?sh=71d564fe737c
https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/dc-riots/what-we-know-about-the-5-people-who-died-during-wednesdays-capitol-riot/
https://nypost.com/2021/01/07/who-are-the-four-who-died-in-the-dc-protest-at-the-capitol/
BladeRunner
Footballguy
The MSM strikes again!
The price of believing what you're spoon-fed without question.
Doug B
Footballguy
If that’s what’s considered a sin around here ... yikes. Maurile and like three other guys are going to get mighty bored talking reasonably among themselves.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
Yikes. It had to be worse than this.
Although I do agree that the Trump supporters do get a lot more rope when it comes to suspensions. There seems to be an open season in what they say regarding Tim.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
the spanker
Footballguy
I guess.....Heaven Help us all out there folks, USA Today is also no longer a credible news source either? They are also liars who dare to print the truth in just the first two paragraphs below. How dare they?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2021/05/07/threats-against-congress-doubled-2021-lawmakers-address-security/4993594001/
WASHINGTON – Threats against members of Congress have more than doubled so far in 2021, compared to 2020, according to a watchdog report Friday about U.S. Capitol Police.
The report comes as Congress grapples with how to bolster security after the Jan. 6 riot that left five dead and 140 police officers injured. The House Administration Committee scheduled a hearing Monday about threat assessment and counter-surveillance before and during the attack.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Following the January 6 riot, this got me 3 months for spamming:
Trump's America, never forget.
The Commish
Footballguy
Deflection away from the actual topic and absurd initial positions complete!! Can we officially put this notion of "but socialism!!!!!" to bed now, please? Well, unless we're talking about the vaccine rollout...I guess it's still appropriate there.
timschochet
Footballguy
We cannot. Mitch McConnell and other Republican politicians will continue to oppose all Biden proposals and call them socialism. Posters like @ekbeats will continue to argue that by “socialism” they simply mean big government spending and that we should discuss specific policy issues rather than worry about terminology. At the exact same time, other posters like @BladeRunner will warn us of the horrors of Cuba and Venezuela and suggest that’s where we’re heading.
It’s a nonsensical, extremely frustrating set of arguments. And since everyone seems to be predicting that the Republicans will win back the House of Representatives next year, it appears to be working.
The Commish
Footballguy
I personally don't believe the GOP winning back the House has anything to do with the severely hacked and bastardized third grade definitions of "socialism". The only place that plays is here in Florida and a few other border spots. The younger the population gets, the less of an impact this kind of nonsense makes.
So "we" (here in the PSF) can safely ignore this nonsense and move on with policy discussion rather than simply improperly used terms. You'll note not a single person (sans ekbeats...sorta) claiming this fear stuff has talked about a specific policy.
FairWarning
Footballguy
He did talk about the positives of Cuba - the free services. Think he did the same with Nicaragua. I don’t recall anything about Venezuela.timschochet said:
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The Commish
Footballguy
And he's also denounced the negatives. There is a significant amount of nuance ignored by the statement made which Tim was responding to.
FairWarning
Footballguy
Where Bernie(and other politicians) go off the rails is use a better example than as polarizing country. Mention that Canada offers those social services and it is a much easier sell.
The Commish
Footballguy
I don't think it matters a single bit what country/example he uses to support his position. They have such a warped and dishonest take on "socialism" that anything coming out of Sanders' mouth is bad, nuance be damned. It's one of the few boogie men they have left after the last administration removed a good number of the talking points making "two sides, same coin" a bigger and bigger truth with each removal.
timschochet
Footballguy
Couldn’t agree more. But the accusation was that Bernie wants to bring a Cuba style authoritarian state to the USA. This falsehood, which gets repeated all the time on right wing media, is ignorant of history and facts and any understanding of what Bernie’s movement is actually about. I tried to explain this yesterday, but the folks I was addressing responded with mockery and laughing emojis. So it’s pointless I guess.
Don’t blame me, blame Bernie Sanders. He’s the one who has latched onto the name Socialism and defined it in a way that yes - is more akin to big government than the classical textbook definition.
What socialism is — according to Bernie Sanders
He's enflamed conversation about socialism across America
U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders has been calling himself a democratic socialist since the 1960s.
Bernie's use of the word "socialist" has attracted both love and ire from the left.
His definition of socialism is vague, but is the basis for many peoples' understanding of the concept.
The unexpected level of serious consideration that many Americans are giving to socialism is due, in large part, to the popularity of Bernie Sanders during the 2016 Democratic primaries. The U.S. senator's support for "socialist" policies catapulted him from an obscure senator from Vermont to the most admired politician in America. However, it has also sparked an ideological debate in this country that will likely continue for some time.
This said, what exactly is socialism according to Sanders? What would it look like in practice? Most importantly to academics, is it socialism at all?
Bernie Sanders explains what socialism is
Luckily for us, Senator Sanders explained his political philosophy in a speech he delivered at Georgetown University in 2015. (The entire speech can be viewed here.)
He begins by referring to the New Deal of President Franklin Roosevelt and pointing out the good that it did for a country in the depths of the Great Depression:
"He saw one-third of a nation ill-housed, ill-clad, ill-nourished. And he acted. Against the ferocious opposition of the ruling class of his day, people he called economic royalists, Roosevelt implemented a series of programs that put millions of people back to work, took them out of poverty and restored their faith in government. He redefined the relationship of the federal government to the people of our country. He combated cynicism, fear and despair. He reinvigorated democracy. He transformed the country. . . . And, by the way, almost everything he proposed was called 'socialist.'"
The senator then muses on several issues facing the United States, income inequality, unemployment, high rates of childhood poverty, the high cost of medical care, and a declining faith in our political system, among others, and decides that the concentration of wealth and power is both the root cause of them and the key reason why we have failed to solve them. His solution, of course, is "socialism." It is then that he gives us his conception of what that is:
"Democratic socialism means that we must create an economy that works for all, not just the very wealthy. Democratic socialism means that we must reform a political system in America today which is not only grossly unfair but, in many respects, corrupt."
He goes a bit into the particulars of policy and explained that his conception of socialism would require — this is what it would look like — universal health care, total employment, free college education, more public spending, a living wage, environmental regulations, and a robust democratic culture to come into existence. He flatly denied any interest in nationalization, telling the audience:
"So the next time you hear me attacked as a socialist, remember this: I don't believe government should own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a fair deal."
The contents of this speech were very similar to other statements he has made about socialism across his entire political career. The entire speech could have been summed up neatly in a quote he gave to the Associated Press back in 1997:
"To me, socialism doesn't mean state ownership of everything, by any means, it means creating a nation, and a world, in which all human beings have a decent standard of living."
Wait a moment, praise for the New Deal? No interest in nationalization? That definition sounds a lot like capitalism!
You might have noticed that this program focuses on making capitalism work better and not replacing it with an entirely new system based on social ownership. This has made his definition of socialism a matter of contention.
While "socialism" is a system based around replacing private ownership of the means of production with social ownership, which generally means having the workers own and operate them instead — either through cooperatives or the state — Bernie hasn't shown much of an interest in using the government to promote this change.
Bernie's explanation of "socialism" is, in fact, closer to what political philosophers refer to as "social democracy." This is a capitalist system, since the means of production are still privately owned, where the state heavily regulates the economy and has an active welfare system in place to correct for the worst problems inherent to capitalism like inequality, cyclic instability, or the profit motive encouraging people to do things against the public interest.
If one looks to Bernie's more general positions, which have been rather consistent over the last few decades, there are really only a couple of points that are explicitly socialistic. The first is his call for universal, single payer, health care which replaces private insurance. This does call for the government to take over or replace an entire industry, the health insurance industry, for the sake of the people.
Secondly, his calls to increase the number of worker cooperatives in the United States is praised by the left, since it would be creating businesses where the workers are in control of the means of production. While this is socialistic, it isn't horribly radical and some thinkers on the left question if making more cooperatives actually fixes the problems they see as inherent to capitalism.
What do experts have to say about this definition?
There is a consensus among experts that Bernie isn't a socialist under the broad definition of the ideology given above. They instead place him squarely in the company of social democrats.
Nobel Prize winner and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman did precisely that in a recent article. After musing on the American discussion of the ideology, he explained that while many Americans are now calling themselves "socialists":
"... neither the politicians nor the voters are clamoring for government seizure of the means of production. Instead, they've taken on board conservative rhetoric that describes anything that tempers the excesses of a market economy as socialism, and in effect said, 'Well, in that case I'm a socialist.' What Americans who support 'socialism' actually want is what the rest of the world calls social democracy: a market economy, but with extreme hardship limited by a strong social safety net and extreme inequality limited by progressive taxation. They want us to look like Denmark or Norway, not Venezuela."
Philosopher Noam Chomsky, who himself is an anarcho-syndicalist, called Bernie an "Honest New Dealer" while saying, "Bernie Sanders may use the word 'socialist,' but he's basically a New Dealer. Now, in the current American political spectrum, to be a New Dealer is to be way out on the left."
What do other socialists have to say about it?
The Democratic Socialists of America like him, but make clear that they are to his left. As they explain when clarifying their support for and ideological relationship to him, in 2016 they "made clear that Bernie's New Deal or social democratic program did not fulfill the socialist aim of establishing worker and social ownership of the economy. But in the context of 40 years of oligarchic rule, Sanders' program proved sufficiently radical and inspiring."
Bhaskar Sunkara, the founder and editor of the popular left-wing magazine Jacobin, explained his views on Bernie's ideology in an interview with Vox. In it, he calls Sanders "a good social democrat" but concludes that Sanders "vision" does not go as far to the left as that of democratic socialists. He also wrote a piece in Jacobin explaining these differences and musing on the potential effectiveness of a Sanders campaign as far as it concerns the goals of the left.
While America's favorite democratic socialist might really be our favorite social democrat, Bernie Sanders has still managed to begin a debate about the ideal way to organize an economy that many people thought had been eternally settled a couple of decades ago. His ideas on what "socialism" is and what our society should look like are valuable additions to American political discussion, especially as we near 2020.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
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