Pfizer Employees Caught Claiming That Natural COVID Antibodies Offer 'More Protection' Than Vaccination (10/7/21 07:20 PST) (1 Viewer)

***MAIN VIDEO***: Pfizer Scientists: ‘Your [COVID] Antibodies Are Better Than The [Pfizer] Vaccination.'  Oct 4, 2021

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On5RYFbcxWY

********

CONTEXTUAL MATERIAL:

DIRECT HEADLINE: Fauci: Natural Immunity vs. Vaccine For COVID-19 Needs To Be Discussed Seriously

By Tim Hains  September 10, 2021

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/09/10/fauci_natural_immunity_vs_vaccine_for_covid-19_needs_to_be_discussed_seriously.html

(Dr. Anthony Fauci answering CNN's Sanjay Gupta's question on if people who have already recovered from COVID-19 should still be required to get the vaccine ).  "I don't have a really firm answer for you (right now) on that (issue). That's something that we're ( the scientific community) going to have to discuss ( in depth) regarding the durability of the (immunity) response.... So it is conceivable that you got infected (i.e. natural immunity), you're protected, but you may not be protected (from COVID19) for an indefinite period of time...it is an issue ( to investigate), and there could be an argument for saying what you said (about natural immunity)."

DIRECT HEADLINE: Pfizer scientists tout natural immunity in Project Veritas sting: ‘Antibodies are probably better’

By Valerie Richardson Tuesday, October 5, 2021

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/oct/5/project-veritas-captures-pfizer-scientists-giving-/

https://acprimetime.com/atlantic-city-questions-alleged-admissions-from-pfizer-execs/

(Nick Karl, Pfizer) “When somebody is naturally immune (previously having COVID19 and recovering), like, they got COVID ( in the past), they probably have (much) better - not better, but more antibodies against the (COVID19) virus...When you actually get the (COVID19) virus, you’re going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of (COVID19) virus, and not only just like that outside portion, like, the inside portion, the actual virus....”

(Chris Croce, Pfizer, answering question on if someone had more protection from COVID-19, compared to taking the vaccine, after recovering and testing positive for the antibodies )

“Probably more (protection)...You’re protected most likely for longer (than taking the vaccine) since it was a natural response...we're seeing an increase in the Delta variant ( of the virus)...because of the immune, their (vaccine induced) antibodies are waning....you still shouldn't have to show anything ( vaccine proof/vaccine passport)....in my opinion, it's a violation of HIPAA (Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996)...no one (the government) has the right to ask you if you are vaccinated ( or not)....it's an invasion of (your personal) privacy and I don't agree with it...there are eyes and ears everywhere (at Pfizer), you don't talk about anything that can implicate you (legally) nor Big Pharma... even if you shut the door to your (own) office, it's still like, who is listening ( to what I am saying)?...”

(Rahul Khandke, Pfizer)  “...if you have (COVID19) antibodies built up, you should be able to prove that you have those...We’re bred and taught ( at Pfizer) to be like, ‘(the COVID19 Pfizer) vaccine is safer than actually getting COVID.... Like, we (Pfizer employees) have to sit there for hours and hours and listen to (orders) like... ‘you cannot talk about (any of ) this in public.’....”

(Chris Croce, Pfizer, answering question on what happened to the monoclonal antibody treatments )

“(It got) pushed to the side.. (for) Money. It’s disgusting....I still feel like I work for an evil corporation (Pfizer) because it comes down to (just) profits in the end.... I mean, I’m there to help people (get healthy/take care of their health), not to make millions and millions of dollars ( for the company Pfizer).... So, I mean, that’s the moral dilemma....Basically, our organization (Pfizer) is run on COVID money now....”

********

Do you believe natural immunity is more effective than taking the vaccine?

Why is discussion of natural immunity as well as any public discussion of the vaccine opposite to the Big Pharma narrative, in any manner, as implied by those in the main video, being suppressed and silenced?

Why should the already vaccine hesitant trust anything they are being told by their elected officials, Big Pharma and the complicit MSM after seeing expose videos like this?

Discuss

GordonGekko said:

***MAIN VIDEO***: Pfizer Scientists: ‘Your [COVID] Antibodies Are Better Than The [Pfizer] Vaccination.'  Oct 4, 2021

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On5RYFbcxWY

Click to expand...

This is another Project Veritas video.  

squistion said:

This is another Project Veritas video.  

Click to expand...

Appreciate you letting us all know that watching it is a waste of time. Thanks!

Why should I trust anything Project Veritas produces, when peer reviewed research (not MSM or Big Pharma sponsored) exists on this very topic?

Note: I’m not saying everything is known regarding the durability of immunity (both natural and vaccine-induced), I’m asking why a YouTube video of Pfizer employees is relevant, much less one produced by a group with a political agenda?

Terminalxylem said:

Why should I trust anything Project Veritas produces, when peer reviewed research (not MSM or Big Pharma sponsored) exists on this very topic?

Note: I’m not saying everything is known regarding the durability of immunity (both natural and vaccine-induced), I’m asking why a YouTube video of Pfizer employees is relevant, much less one produced by a group with a political agenda?

Click to expand...

New studies pretty much confirm natural immunity is longer lasting than vaccines. Is that really in doubt? There is a reason there isn't very many statistics (provided by govt or anyone) on the number of breakthrough cases vs. cases with those who had natural immunity.  Even the folks at Pfizer know this and have known it for awhile.

Coach Morris Buttermaker said:

New studies pretty much confirm natural immunity is longer lasting than vaccines. Is that really in doubt? There is a reason there isn't very many statistics (provided by govt or anyone) on the number of breakthrough cases vs. cases with those who had natural immunity.  Even the folks at Pfizer know this and have known it for awhile.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is very much in doubt. But I'll welcome links to these studies (plural) - you can exclude the Israeli one (the only one of which I'm aware), unless it's been peer reviewed.TIA.

Not sure the opinions of this selected employee are trustworthy, but if we can impeach a sitting president on such a scenario, why not Pfizer?

squistion said:

This is another Project Veritas video.  

Click to expand...

Are they kinda like The Lincoln Project?

Summer Wheat said:

Are they kinda like The Lincoln Project?

Click to expand...

Only if The Lincoln Project also puts out selectively edited, doctored videos designed to be misleading or give the wrong impression and then refuses to show anyone the complete unedited footage. 

And with their known bias, I would never use The Lincoln Project as a source of information or to start threads based on what they have to say. 

squistion said:

Only if The Lincoln Project also puts out selectively edited, doctored videos designed to be misleading or give the wrong impression and then refuses to show anyone the complete unedited footage. 

And with their known bias, I would never use The Lincoln Project as a source of information or to start threads based on what they have to say. 

Click to expand...

That is what I meant.  They both are very biased.

Summer Wheat said:

That is what I meant.  They both are very biased.

Click to expand...

Sure...but who is off using Lincoln project as a source of truth?  They put out entertaining stuff and opinionated stuff.

I don't think they have yet reached the level of complete unreliability that Okeefe and Veritas has proven to be.  There is zero credibility at all with anything from Veritas...no "whatabout these other guys" needed.

sho nuff said:

Sure...but who is off using Lincoln project as a source of truth?  They put out entertaining stuff and opinionated stuff.

I don't think they have yet reached the level of complete unreliability that Okeefe and Veritas has proven to be.  There is zero credibility at all with anything from Veritas...no "whatabout these other guys" needed.

Click to expand...

We could do without both.

Summer Wheat said:

We could do without both.

Click to expand...

Cool...sure.  But why even need the "what about"?

Is there a history of lincoln project being used as a source here...starting threads off of their work?  Because this is by far not the first Veritas thing that has started of a thread or been brought to this board as proof of something.  Only to have it never actually mean what the original video shows.

Coach Morris Buttermaker said:

New studies pretty much confirm natural immunity is longer lasting than vaccines. Is that really in doubt? There is a reason there isn't very many statistics (provided by govt or anyone) on the number of breakthrough cases vs. cases with those who had natural immunity.  Even the folks at Pfizer know this and have known it for awhile.

Click to expand...

I've heard his reasoning for why natural immunity is more complete vs the vaccine before from other scientists, so I think he was speaking from a rational place. 

Attacking the source vs the information is the thing to do here.  Anything PV is dismissed, regardless of content.  

Max Power said:

I've heard his reasoning for why natural immunity is more complete vs the vaccine before from other scientists, so I think he was speaking from a rational place. 

Attacking the source vs the information is the thing to do here.  Anything PV is dismissed, regardless of content.  

Click to expand...

Because the source has proven to be unreliable.  While there may be some truth in there...it seems the truth part is the stuff we already knew about most diseases and immunity via infection vs vaccines.  As said...that wasn't new.  Its the other stuff that gets thrown out there...because of how Veritas edits things and paints things with no actual transparency.

When was the last time a Veritas video actually proved out to be what it was claiming?  Has it ever happened?  Why should they not be dismissed?  Why should anyone out there every believe what they put out?  I won't attack much more information from them...because there is zero reason to ever even listen to a thing they put out there.

sho nuff said:

Because the source has proven to be unreliable.  While there may be some truth in there...it seems the truth part is the stuff we already knew about most diseases and immunity via infection vs vaccines.  As said...that wasn't new.  Its the other stuff that gets thrown out there...because of how Veritas edits things and paints things with no actual transparency.

When was the last time a Veritas video actually proved out to be what it was claiming?  Has it ever happened?  Why should they not be dismissed?  Why should anyone out there every believe what they put out?  I won't attack much more information from them...because there is zero reason to ever even listen to a thing they put out there.

Click to expand...

I'm not the PV expert here.  I'm fine if you want to disregard everything here.  That is certainly your right to.  I was letting Morris know where I see this thread headed. 

Max Power said:

I'm not the PV expert here.  I'm fine if you want to disregard everything here.  That is certainly your right to.  I was letting Morris know where I see this thread headed. 

Click to expand...

Probably similar to the johnson and johnson one that keeps moving down the page.  Im guessing those who buy into the video will fall pretty much along political lines or beliee in the vaccines vs. not already.  

sho nuff said:

When was the last time a Veritas video actually proved out to be what it was claiming?  Has it ever happened?  Why should they not be dismissed?  Why should anyone out there every believe what they put out?  I won't attack much more information from them...because there is zero reason to ever even listen to a thing they put out there.

Click to expand...

Video Evidence Of 2020 Republican Voter/Election Fraud (1/14 14:19 PST)

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/792114-video-evidence-of-2020-republican-voterelection-fraud-114-1419-pst/

******

PV showed evidence of ballot chasing/ballot harvesting that benefited a Republican candidate. The person in question, Raquel Rodriguez, was arrested on four counts of voter/election fraud.

Pretty hard to call me a tribalist when I'm actually discussing voter fraud that benefited a Republican.

In order to denounce PV, you will have to defend a Republican who was smeared for election/voter fraud IN TEXAS NO LESS.

YOU ARE NOW DEFENDING REPUBLICANS TO JUSTIFY YOUR CHEAP LAZY TRIBALISM.  YES, RIGHT NOW I AM LITERALLY LAUGHING AT YOU.

squistion said:

This is another Project Veritas video.  

Click to expand...

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23634799

"Meh, from Dan Bongino, so of course it is edited to make him look bad and he always stumbled in his speaking delivery due to his stuttering issues. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23620377

"I don't think they all reported that. So far only link anyone has provided was to CNN "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/800659-johnson-johnson-employee-caught-denouncing-covid19-vaccine-for-children-10121-0424-pst/?do=findComment&comment=23619993

"I didn't click on the video link.  

So it is from Project Veritas?   

Project Veritas is known for putting out deceptively edited videos and always refusing to release the complete unedited footage that they filmed. Nothing that they release can be trusted."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/800623-should-biden-be-impeached-for-lying-to-the-country-about-afghanistan/?do=findComment&comment=23614798

"Dan Bongino is your source?"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23613723

"False, there is not one shred of actual proof. RA linked a New Yorker article where they quote some low level BLM march participants who claim BLM was infiltrated by Antifa, but those claims have not been verified by any fact checker. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23608528

"Meh. This is an opinion piece from a guy who is known more his photos than his writing. Plus David Frum is a regular contributor to The Atlantic and he is hardly left leaning. "

******

Did you plan to address any of the questions posed in the actual thread topic? Or just continue to "source police" only Conservatives and Republicans here as a means to attack diversity of thought and diversity of opinion in the PSF and in the FBG forums?

Do you believe natural immunity is more effective than taking the vaccine?

Why is discussion of natural immunity as well as any public discussion of the vaccine opposite to the Big Pharma narrative, in any manner, as implied by those in the main video, being suppressed and silenced?

Why should the already vaccine hesitant trust anything they are being told by their elected officials, Big Pharma and the complicit MSM after seeing expose videos like this?

squistion said:

This is another Project Veritas video.  

Click to expand...

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23604190

"Nope. Link? "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23601589

"They always do, that doesn't makes their polls reliable. Why do you think they are the favorite polling organization that Fox News references?"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23601563

"Stopped reading there. The land line using Rasmussen always leans right of all the major polling organizations. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/768581-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23591253

"I am talking about posting an opinion piece with no identifying information as to authorship or the site from which it was taken.

I don't give a rat's patootie about AOC wearing apparel. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/768581-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23591205

"I want to see some identifying information of the author and/or a link no matter who wrote it and that is not too much to ask."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23591103

"You have yet to provide exact figures or any figures for that claim"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/768581-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23591039

"Thanks, no wonder he gave no link or identifying information. "

*******

I don't hit the Report Button. I don't do that. But you can. But do you want to really do that? Showing you again attempting to derail a thread by source policing it and then eventually gaslighting people if they actually play your cheap games?

If you want to troll other threads started by other people by doing your repugnant "Give Me A Link/You Are Liar If You Don't/You Are A Liar If You Do" routine, that's up to you. But if you want to walk into a top level thread I start and spoil for confrontation and attempt to hijack it for sport because you want to silence Conservatives, then you and I will have a problem that will never end.

But, by all means, hit the Report Button.

squistion said:

This is another Project Veritas video.  

Click to expand...

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/768581-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23591001

"Link? Who wrote this opinion piece and from where was it taken?"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23585557

"Fine, if Dale made this up and is lying, then it should be easy to find a link to someone/anyone credible who is saying this."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23582950

"How long had the wildfires briefing gone on before the 14 seconds that were shown? That was it, the entire broadcast? Somehow I doubt that."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/?do=findComment&comment=23571044

"OK, if it was edited then show the entire clip in context where something was edited out. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23561944

"Yes, there are still some who haven't watched the edited, out of context misleading videos"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23561032

"It is based in Bentley, Perth, Western Australia and I never heard of it until today.  I don't think it has been proven that the student population number is any reliable indicator of the quality of education received or the credibility of any professor associated with the university. Has anyone in this forum ever referenced the esteemed Curtin U. before your post? Perhaps, but if so, I don't recall it. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23560981

"Curtin University?   An Australian public research university based in Bentley, Perth, Western Australia. That Curtin?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtin_University

Wow!...bringing in the heavy hitters here with that esteemed institution of learning...that must means it is curtains for Joe. "

******

You know what gangs do is they need to test the loyalty of their recruits. So they jump them in. It's a rite of passage. Beat someone down so they prove they will be loyal and follow orders.

It's good to know that if there are young Conservatives and Republicans, new to the forums and community, who want to share some thoughts, that you'll be there to try to deter them from finding their voice by making sure you "jump them in" by source policing them.

Do you know what I'd personally consider an almost a stone lock guarantee from people who casually visit the forums, find it hostile and leave knowing they will never return?

THEY DON'T BECOME SUBSCRIBERS.

squistion said:

This is another Project Veritas video.  

Click to expand...

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23559787

"If I ask for a link to prove some claim I am skeptical of, and it is provided I ALWAYS READ IT. However, I don't watch YouTube clips as the shorter ones (of Biden in particular) are often misleadingly edited and/or taken out of context. In other cases they can run for 10-15 minutes and I don't want to invest that amount of  time (particularly when what is viewed is a matter of interpretation).And if I make a statement of fact and someone disputes its veracity, I always provide a link if asked."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23559251

"Really? They are? Somehow I doubt that and would like to see the actual national crime figures to back your claim that they have reached an all time high since he took office.  "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23558099

"Rasmussen"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/799641-mother-of-marine-killed-in-isis-bomb-attack-has-her-instatwit-account-suspended-for-criticizing-potus-biden/?do=findComment&comment=23556413

"You didn't see what you thought you saw. The article says it was Instagram, your original title claimed it was Twitter that suspended the acoount. You apparently misread the link. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/799641-mother-of-marine-killed-in-isis-bomb-attack-has-her-instatwit-account-suspended-for-criticizing-potus-biden/?do=findComment&comment=23556290

"It wasn't Twitter, it was Instagram and per the link:"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23549749

"Sorry, but I am not going to waste my time go through all these YouTube links and finding after I view them that they didn't show what was represented by the OP.  The YouTube clip I SAW today didn't live up to the advance hype, so that's it for the time being. "

*****

Thirteen US Marines die via suicide bombing in Afghanistan. And you immediately split hairs about whether the source was Twitter or Instagram to try to deflect as a means to promote your personal political tribalism.

Here's something we can't fact check today. How many FBG subscribers are current or former US military? How many have spouses, relatives, children, friends, neighbors and generally people they care about and love in the US military?

You were even told your behavior was disgusting and yet, you just don't stop.

Good men and women died to defend your right to casually dismiss their sacrifice. They stood in harms way trying to save innocent civilians. But it's your free speech.

squistion said:

This is another Project Veritas video.  

Click to expand...

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23549572

"You misrepresented one YouTube clip you provided. I am not wasting my time with any others from you today. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23549268

"The link that was provided where he was joking was from a presser on May 12, 2021, not the one from yesterday."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23549247

"Because I couldn't find it with a quick Google search and doubted the accuracy of the quote. I am not going to spend an hour looking for something that may not exist."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23549125

"I am pretty sure now that no one can provide a clip of what Biden supposedly said, or we would have seen it by now.  I can't answer your question until someone can show me Biden actually said that and in what context. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23549104

"I want to see a clip of the exact quote in context, which no one has provided yet (and you are quoting Biden as saying something different than the OP). "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23549090

So he did it just for that one solitary presser and no others. Okie Dokie As per the bolded, I told you I wanted to see the video clip of that in context, as "if" he said that, I believe he was probably being facetious. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23549021

"If he said that, I would like to see the clip in context as I imagine he was being facetious. "

******

Sealioning

Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity.[1][2][3][4] It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

What you are engaging in is called "sealioning"

You just don't like my viewpoints and my politics. You could of course discuss some practical arguments considering "natural immunity" to the COVID19 vaccine. But why do that? Why partake in discussion on an actual discussion forum?

You came looking for confrontation. Now you have it. Sit down, get a big spoon and eat the whole meal.

squistion said:

This is another Project Veritas video.  

Click to expand...

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/795378-kyle-rittenhouse-trial-delayed-to-november-1-2021/?do=findComment&comment=23544187

"As the old expression goes: "If you go out looking for trouble, you will probably find it," and Kyle Rittenhouse found the trouble he was looking for. This is one of the best examples of karma I can think of (karma being defined as the direct consequences of one's actions). "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23548276

"Meh. We have been hearing that since he became the front runner for the nomination and I have yet to see any proof of it. Unlike some here, I don't watch cherry picked selectively edited videos designed to make him look bad. IMO he was fine today. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23546055

"Than why is there no recording of this exchange?"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23546034

"It was off camera. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/799286-so-far-antifa-has-attacked-more-journalists-than-trump-ever-did/?do=findComment&comment=23542882

"An unproven claim outside of a few isolated quotes of observations from lower level participants in BLM marches. Some Antifa anti-fascists showing up at a BLM protest doesn't mean any kind of official BLM/Antifa association, as you falsely keep insisting. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23542618

"Dude, the YouTube clip you posted was during a Democratic primary debate, so he couldn't have been talking about Harris. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23542525

"No it isn't. They know this is fake meme perpetuated by cherry picked quotes and selectivley edited videos taken out of context to give a misleading impression. If there actually was any real concern about Biden's mental health we would be at least hearing about it reported from "anonymous sources" (which there was no shortage of during the Trump years)."

*******

DIRECT HEADLINE: 'Sealioning' Is A Common Trolling Tactic On Social Media--What Is It?

Marshall Shepherd Mar 7, 2019,07:01am EST

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marshallshepherd/2019/03/07/sealioning-is-a-common-trolling-tactic-on-social-media-what-is-it/?sh=3d43164e7a41

In your own words, behavior has consequences. I mean you can argue against Forbes as your standard source policing routine. Except I am the most heavily sourced poster in the entire PSF. So what are the direct consequences for hijacking thread after thread and just plain lacking the self preservation to think you could go and hijack my thread?

You are NOT attacking me. You are NOT attacking Conservatives and Republicans. You are attacking diversity of thought and diversity of opinion. I am not attacking you. I am defending my boundaries. If you don't want problems with me, don't come looking to hit and run ambush my threads.

squistion said:

This is another Project Veritas video.  

Click to expand...

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/753867-official-25th-amendment-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23534833

"No one is as sharp at 78 as they were 5-10 years earlier. That said, I have not seen evidence of the mental deterioration that others in this forum claim to have witnessed (please avoid laughing emojis. TIA). "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/798975-im-sorry-lebron-your-communists-won-now-what-to-do-about-the-new-priorities-and-new-man/?do=findComment&comment=23531846

"Last I checked, under the forum rules I can comment on any post in any thread (as long as I am not trolling or spamming people). There is no pre-approved list by the OP as to who can or can't respond in a thread they start, anyone can respond and they are allowed to do so. You posted a stand alone link that was not directed to Tim or anyone else in this thread. It was about someone who co-founded BLM in 2013, citing an interview she gave in 2015,  but who is no longer affiliated with the organization. That is ancient history and not relevant to the current BLM who you claim has a stated objective of socialism.  "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/798975-im-sorry-lebron-your-communists-won-now-what-to-do-about-the-new-priorities-and-new-man/?do=findComment&comment=23531793

"This is old news and not relevant that she was the co-founder when she is no longer connected with organization. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/?do=findComment&comment=23531143

"Dude, I did a Google search and could find nothing. What more am I suppose to do? I can't provide factual support for your position that Trump had a drawdown plan, when I can't find anything online. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/?do=findComment&comment=23531125

"Fine. Provide us with his drawdown plan that no one has yet to provide and we can't find in a google search, and we will go from there."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/?do=findComment&comment=23531097

"I am like him, I never heard about or don't remember any specifics of Trump's drawdown plan (if there was one) and a cursory Google search wasn't helpful. If you claim you know what Trump's drawdown plan was, please give us the details or provide a link. TIA."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/754940-official-msnbc-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23525920

"Sorry I won't waste my time watching YouTube videos."

******

DIRECT HEADLINE: Gaslighting, Sealioning and Dealing With Online Harassment

Devina_Buckshee 28 Dec 2019, 2:38 PM

https://fit.thequint.com/mind-it/gaslighting-sealioning-mental-health#read-more

A lot of people don't know they are being gaslit. ( You are not the first gaslighter I've met in my long life. You are however one of the most clearly unskilled at it. )Some people grew up in environments where it was the baseline standard growing up. Many people react it to viscerally in a way they don't understand. It becomes avoidance and happens in a reactive manner. I'm a retired high level professional media optics operative. It was one of the many hats I've worn to earn a living in my life. That means I had to key in on human behavior on multiple levels. You aren't unique here. Your tactics aren't unique.

One such possibility for folks passing through would be to associate the FBG forums with an overall negative experience. They can't put their finger on it. They can't explain how they were gaslit by King Sealion in one of the forums. They just know it's time to go and they should cancel their FBG subscription on the way out the door.

I was more than happy to talk about COVID19 and the complex topic of natural immunity. You wanted to derail the thread into something else. Now you are going get MORE SOMETHING ELSE than you ever thought you could imagine.

squistion said:

This is another Project Veritas video.  

Click to expand...

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23542514

"In your opinion, but I don't see any Democrats saying that, anywhere (not even quoted as "anonymous sources")."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23536107

"I doubt that. And I would have no way of knowing it was from the WaPo without wasting my time cutting and pasting and googling it (which no one should have to do here). "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23536076

"What site is this taken from? You didn't provide a link."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23535969

"Sorry you made the claim, so you have the obligation to provide the proof."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23535415

"I asked for a link to the site you posted from, not a video link that I have to listen to. So...I guess you can't provide your source. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23535387

"I asked for a link to that opinion piece. I don't waste my time watching clips, thank you."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23535350

"Do you have a link to where this was taken from and who wrote this opinion piece?"

**********

DIRECT HEADLINE: 24 phrases ‘gaslighters’ use against you

By Laura Hale Brockway Dec. 31, 2020

https://www.prdaily.com/24-phrases-gaslighters-use-against-you/

The common theme in most gaslighting is essentially saying "It Never Happened. I Didn't Do It. But If I Did, You Deserved It. I Hate You For Not Leaving Me"

But no real long standing patterns can hide for long. Patterns tell us about values, behavior and truth.

You wanted to change the subject of the thread, then so be it. You wanted to derail talking about natural immunity to COVID19 as a salient political discussion, then so be it. You wanted to immediately make the topic about you, then so be it.

Now that you are getting what you want, doesn't feel so great does it?

squistion said:

This is another Project Veritas video.  

Click to expand...

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/754940-official-msnbc-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23525857

"Can you give us some examples of that? (refrain from laughing emojis, please). I watch her show regularly and don't know what you are referring to."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/783384-florida-politics/?do=findComment&comment=23516021

"Link?"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/798399-official-16-select-committee-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23491057

"It is Rasmussen. That is all one has to say. One doesn't have to do any misrepresentation. Rasmussen is considered an outlier among major polling organizations, always leaning right usually about 3-5 points from the others (which is why Fox, Breitbart, The Gateway Pundit, etc., always cite them as gospel)."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/?do=findComment&comment=23484138

"These are so called facts that have not been independently verified as being accurate.You would never accept a tweet that was from the head of the Democratic National Committee as being factual - yet supposedly all your Democratic friends unquestionably accept the tweet from the head of the Republican National Committee."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/?do=findComment&comment=23484001

"It has not been verified by anyone as being verified facts. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/795638-mass-shootings-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23468522

"Do you happen to have a link for that?"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/797966-athlete-turns-her-back-on-the-flag-during-national-anthem/?do=findComment&comment=23468288

"Was there anything false, inaccurate, or misleading in that tweet about Breitbart changing their headline after running that baseless claim?"

*******

No one is coming to help you here.

You had this coming for a long time now. And it's in your own words, not mine.

Have you really been doing this for years and years on end?  Because I'm only citing as far back as June.

You wanted to make this thread about you, so now it's about you. The biggest "source" in this thread, ironically, is you.

squistion said:

This is another Project Veritas video.  

Click to expand...

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/765610-lgbt-lgbtq-lgbt-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23449160

"Andy Ngo?  Per Wiki Ngo is an American conservative journalist and a regular guest on Fox News. Andy Ngo's claims about LGBT+ hate crimes are absurd and should not be taken seriously, particularly given his credibility issues:"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/754940-official-msnbc-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23447690

"I won't waste my time on any 15 minute video, you, Opie or any of the usual suspects post. Don't expect me to click the link and find that I have rick-rolled, which has happened numerous times. If you can't summarize what she says, than obviously it ain't worth watching.And didn't you say you had put me on ignore? Famous last words..."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/754940-official-msnbc-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23447465

"Sorry I am not watching a 15 minute YouTube video from some guy I never heard of about something Rachel said probably taken out of context. If you want to give the cliff notes of this "unhinged conspiracy theory," I'll look up what she actually said."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/797738-june-14th-is-flag-day/?do=findComment&comment=23446565

"I am not sure why anyone who doesn't watch Fox News should care about her views on the flag. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/797810-will-the-exodus-from-big-cities-that-occurred-during-the-pandemic-persist-or-reverse /?do=findComment&comment=23443816

"Dude, the sources you posted I have never ever heard of before today. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/797810-will-the-exodus-from-big-cities-that-occurred-during-the-pandemic-persist-or-reverse /?do=findComment&comment=23443755

"Has it been proven anywhere, from a legitimate source, of the exact percentage they have lost?"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/797810-will-the-exodus-from-big-cities-that-occurred-during-the-pandemic-persist-or-reverse /?do=findComment&comment=23443732

"5%? 10%? 25%?You were the one to call it an exodus, you should be able to give us some ballpark percentage number (which you have yet to)."

******

One of the struggles of any subscription based business is holding onto an acceptable "retention rate" Think of a volatile business model like a gym, even before the pandemic. You get a flood of new members every January and by the end of the summer, you take staggering losses. The model is designed to have lots of people subscribe but few daily users. No building could house 100 percent of their membership there all at once. So you need a certain level of participation to keep people subscribing. The more links to "contact", the better chance you have to retain that customer.

If you are friends with a coach there, that's a contact point. If you have a cousin who works there, that's another contact point. If you go to a certain fitness class and made friends there, that's another contact point. The more areas in which you are engaged, the more likely you'll stay tethered.

For many people who visit the FBG forums, and some in the PSF, their only contact point to maintain their subscription is a daily pathway in these forums. Drive those people away and what do you have?

Michael Jordan famously said, in response to being asked why he never talked politics during his playing career, that Republicans buy shoes too.

squistion said:

This is another Project Veritas video.  

Click to expand...

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/797810-will-the-exodus-from-big-cities-that-occurred-during-the-pandemic-persist-or-reverse /?do=findComment&comment=23443720

"Of course not, I just doubt from these dubious sources that there has been the max exodus that you claim."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/797810-will-the-exodus-from-big-cities-that-occurred-during-the-pandemic-persist-or-reverse /?do=findComment&comment=23443576

"I never heard of either WirePoints or Allconnect. And I have heard nothing about "exodus from big cities that occurred during the pandemic" Somehow I doubt these are credible sources."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/795341-kamala-harris-border-crisis-biden-put-her-in-charge/?do=findComment&comment=23443381

"I don't know what you are referring to. Do you have some specifics? What are the states and what concerns are not being responded to? Who has claimed that their calls are not being taken?"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/?do=findComment&comment=23442538

"I saw them in various threads but really hard to find using search function when it was a just a URL to a YouTube clip that someone posted. Yes the most recent ones have been longer but IIRC they are sometimes Biden responses edited together, with what happened in between missing (I could be wrong on that but I don't have the stomach to view them again to find out) ."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/?do=findComment&comment=23442490

"Indeed, so we are in agreement that these short snippets (quite often under two minutes, sometimes just 10-15 seconds) are incomplete and not everything that Biden had said on that particular day. My point is we are not given the full context and if we were, it gives a much different impression than what is posted on YouTube and then becomes viral. I provided the complete summit presser, from his opening remarks, until he finished taking reporters questions. He was fine and this was not an outlier, but his critics won't watch these complete unedited exchanges or accept them if they do, as it does not match their preconceived bias of his "diminished cognitive abilities.""

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/?do=findComment&comment=23442442

"Any video that is not complete has been selectively edited. "

******

I started posting back in 2006-ish. I read for a while before that but never registered and never posted. Back then, I was clearly more popular. But I'm OK with either condition. People will love you or they will hate you in your life, but the opposite of love is not hate, it's actually indifference.

One thing I talked about back then, as an objective lesson to the younger guys here in the community, was to be outcome independent and free of desire for external validation. This can only happen if you defend your boundaries. Not just from others, but from within yourself. Some people take their entire lives to learn this. Some, tragically, never learn it.

Before this is over, one way or another, you will never source police another one of my top level threads ever again.

Dude....seriously.

squistion said:

This is another Project Veritas video.  

Click to expand...

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/?do=findComment&comment=23442437

"A less than 3 minute edited video taken out of context can be misleading and those are what people are pointing to as proof of Biden's dementia. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/?do=findComment&comment=23442378

These are multiple videos that are selectively edited and taken out of context. And just as convincing a case for dementia could have been presented for Trump and Godsbrother above gave numerous examples of what could be used (and his list was partial)."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/?do=findComment&comment=23441837

"Like today, except you always dismiss these moments and instead believe in the short edited videos that are taken out of context (you were given full context here from the presser)."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/?do=findComment&comment=23441606

"And you will be wrong after that year is over (but I am sure you won't admit it and will just kick the can down the road another 6 months to a year). All you are seeing are selectively edited videos taken out of context that conforms to your pre-existing bias from the false meme of "Dementia Joe""

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/776645-trump-to-infinity-and-beyond-hq-the-great-and-positive-place/?do=findComment&comment=23441537

"An observation from one CNN reporter is somehow proof to you that the network is starting the narrative that he is mentally unfit"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/793592-“cancel-culture”-and-“woke”/?do=findComment&comment=23440240

"They are synonymous to you and your ilk you only because you keep repeating this falsehood without any evidence.There is still not one shred of proof that BLM and Antifa (which is not even an actual organization) are allies and have worked or are working together. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23439638

"It does when it is selectively edited and taken out of context to give a misleading impression, which seems quite often the case here."

******

LOGICAL FALLACY: Appeal to Ignorance (Logical Fallacy): Definition and Examples

Appeal to ignorance is a logical fallacy in which someone argues either for or against something because there is no contradicting evidence. In other words, it’s based on the mistaken assumption that a lack of evidence is evidence.

https://fallacyinlogic.com/appeal-to-ignorance/

I won't watch a 15 minute video! Not even after you gave it to me after I demanded it! But you know those short ones are deceptively edited and misleading because there's no context!

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23439098

"Fun Fact: Tim, I, and most Democrats and Biden supporters don't watch or believe the selectively edited YouTube videos taken out of context."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23435046

"And everything they say about Gateway Pundit is well documented on the site."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23435042

"The Gateway Pundit (TGP) is an American far-right[2] fake news website.[1] The website is known for publishing falsehoods, hoaxes, and conspiracy theories.[21]"

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23434981

"Gateway Pundit is one of those sites that has posted and/or reposted selectively edited videos of Biden taken out of context, so any conclusion that anyone may form may be misleading and/or false."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23434950

"I never quote the Palmer Report, as I don't take them seriously. So, no.As far as MSNBC...I don't recall ever posting an MSNBC video link that and/or article link that people claimed was selectively edited, misleading or fake. "

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/790013-official-president-joe-biden-thread/?do=findComment&comment=23434942

Reported by the Gateway Pundit...Are we to take that seriously? I am skeptical for some reason as to the accuracy or the conclusion of this article..."

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/795341-kamala-harris-border-crisis-biden-put-her-in-charge/?do=findComment&comment=23430937

"Harvard-Harris is an online poll and like any online poll has credibility issues and should not be taken too seriously. "

******

LOGICAL FALLACY: Burden Of Proof Fallacy: Who Has The Burden of Proof and Why?

Burden of proof fallacy (or shifting the burden of proof) is a logical fallacy that occurs when one abuses their burden of proof by attempting to shift it to someone else.

https://fallacyinlogic.com/burden-of-proof-fallacy-definition-and-examples/

And now I'm finally done. What I sourced is from the beginning of June of this year.  So what can we look forward to in four more months from now? How about a year?  Does it make the community a better place?

squistion, if I haven't made it clear enough, then here is your "Come To Jesus" moment. If you have no good faith intentions in a top level thread I start to actually discuss the topic at hand, then stay out of it.

You wanted links. You got them. You wanted evidence. You got plenty. You wanted it to be about you. I gave you exactly what you thought you wanted.

Now, does anyone else want to source police me? Anyone?

GordonGekko said:

Sealioning

Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity.[1][2][3][4] It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

What you are engaging in is called "sealioning"

You just don't like my viewpoints and my politics. You could of course discuss some practical arguments considering "natural immunity" to the COVID19 vaccine. But why do that? Why partake in discussion on an actual discussion forum?

You came looking for confrontation. Now you have it. Sit down, get a big spoon and eat the whole meal.

Click to expand...

I hadn’t heard this term, thanks. Applies to many people here, most of whom go on “ignore”. No need to report anyone, or invest the effort repeatedly calling them out.

I’ve already answered some of your questions, but I’ll restate my viewpoint: we have reputable data (peer reviewed studies in scientific journals) that suggests vaccine-induced immunity is more reliable and potent than that acquired naturally. The single study reporting otherwise is a preprint from Israel which hasn’t been peer reviewed, and likely is faulty due to selection bias. At best, that study supports those who sought medical care for covid were less likely to be reinfected than vaccine recipients. Limiting the data in this way leaves out many infections, as perhaps 35% of covid cases are asymptomatic, and others with mild symptoms probably didn’t bother getting formally diagnosed. Importantly, those groups are the ones whose immune response might be lacking, as we know the ~10% of infected people who don’t develop antibodies often have mild or no symptoms. 

To be fair, the methodology used for subject selection in the Israeli study isn’t entirely clear. Hopefully peer review can elaborate. Moreover, immunity is multifaceted, and most studies favoring vaccines focus on antibody production. Still, we know our natural immune response to other coronaviruses is imperfect, so we shouldn’t be surprised if it fails (eventually) for SARS-CoV-2.

I don’t need to watch a video of potentially disgruntled employees telling me natural immunity is superior, much less one produced by an organization of political activists. I’m not trying to suppress or silence their opinions; I just don’t value them over existing data, especially when I consider how common the appeal to nature fallacy is in non-scientific media.

I also don’t think other people should be influenced by those type of videos, whether they trust “Big Pharma/Big Medicine” or not. Perhaps more importantly, it’s not practical to confirm and monitor immune response to prior infection when a safe, effective alternative exists - universal vaccination, a strategy employed in Israel, and supported by the same study the anti-vaxxers keep referencing as definitive proof natural immunity is good enough.

Terminalxylem said:

I’ve already answered some of your questions, but I’ll restate my viewpoint: we have reputable data (peer reviewed studies in scientific journals) that suggests vaccine-induced immunity is more reliable and potent than that acquired naturally. The single study reporting otherwise is a preprint from Israel which hasn’t been peer reviewed, and likely is faulty due to selection bias.

Click to expand...

Follow The Money.

In the scientific community, if you don't publish, you don't get funding.

You can only be published if you test for A and find A. One large consideration is that there are tripwires built into how much of science is functionally funded. There is no funding pathway towards testing ideas freely, you must always be working within some larger agenda - No publishing = No grants for your parent organization = The practical end of your career

For career survival, many scientists will root and develop for any result that confirms their expectations and publish it. Career scientists, brand name ones, who make it to the top of their field, are elite at playing the academic career game. That doesn't mean they are the best scientists working for the best overall result for all of humanity.

A glaring example of outside influence into science would be in the food industry. What was long held about nutrition was clearly not truly objective. You had several major power players who used their financial power to leverage the science which altered public perception.

I want to be fair about this. Not all of science is some dark brutal grifter narrative like it fell out of a David Mamet script. But the motive basis behind how the data is used and driven bears actual scrutiny.

Again, and I'll restate, I believe a large part of this discussion is also Pfizer employees talking about the general "culture" around how the pandemic is treated and discussed or not discussed. I don't consider widespread silencing of what has been relabeled as "dissent" as truly honoring the science.

Your position only holds if viewpoints in what is considered "following the science" never changes. But that's not reality. Over time, again and again, science has been challenged and viewpoints on what is good for humanity has shifted. Will it in this case? We can't say. But we can't write off that it won't either.

GordonGekko said:

Follow The Money.

In the scientific community, if you don't publish, you don't get funding.

You can only be published if you test for A and find A. One large consideration is that there are tripwires built into how much of science is functionally funded. There is no funding pathway towards testing ideas freely, you must always be working within some larger agenda - No publishing = No grants for your parent organization = The practical end of your career

For career survival, many scientists will root and develop for any result that confirms their expectations and publish it. Career scientists, brand name ones, who make it to the top of their field, are elite at playing the academic career game. That doesn't mean they are the best scientists working for the best overall result for all of humanity.

A glaring example of outside influence into science would be in the food industry. What was long held about nutrition was clearly not truly objective. You had several major power players who used their financial power to leverage the science which altered public perception.

I want to be fair about this. Not all of science is some dark brutal grifter narrative like it fell out of a David Mamet script. But the motive basis behind how the data is used and driven bears actual scrutiny.

Again, and I'll restate, I believe a large part of this discussion is also Pfizer employees talking about the general "culture" around how the pandemic is treated and discussed or not discussed. I don't consider widespread silencing of what has been relabeled as "dissent" as truly honoring the science.

Your position only holds if viewpoints in what is considered "following the science" never changes. But that's not reality. Over time, again and again, science has been challenged and viewpoints on what is good for humanity has shifted. Will it in this case? We can't say. But we can't write off that it won't either.

Click to expand...

Meh. Similar things can be said about politics. And media, all flavors.

Science is fluid, by definition, but I see no problem using the best available evidence to drive policy. Peer review exists to address problems inherent in the research process, including bias and outside influence. No such safeguards exist for YouTube videos. We'd all do better to read the evidence critically, and attempt to understand research methodology and its limitations. But most people aren't trained in esoteric areas like virology and immunology, or statistics for that matter. So we have to trust someone, and I prefer experts in their field over videographers.

I believe we've seen enough to know the mRNA vaccines are safe and effective. We're wasting time and energy on conspiracies and irrational fears, rather than promoting the most direct and simple way out of this mess.

Oh, and I agree nutrition is a very inexact science, with way too much outside influence. But I still would trust a nutritionist to be more knowledgeable about the state of the science than a Whole Foods employee.

"Knock it off!" - every FBG trying to read this on their phone.

Are boosters being pushed now b/c ADE is starting to play out among the vaxxed?

If so, is it fair for people to question whether further ADE is a potential risk of any booster formulations?

And how are these studies and data not enough to slow the drumbeat of mass mandates until more time plays out to see how the vaxxed are reacting to waning immunity and dealing with potential signs of ADE?

https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(21)00392-3/fulltext

Infection-enhancing anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies recognize both the original Wuhan/D614G strain and Delta variants. A potential risk for mass vaccination?

Highlights
• Infection-enhancing antibodies have been detected in symptomatic Covid-19.
• Antibody dependent enhancement (ADE) is a potential concern for vaccines.
• Enhancing antibodies recognize both the Wuhan strain and delta variants.
• ADE of delta variants is a potential risk for current vaccines.
• Vaccine formulations lacking ADE epitope are suggested.

Abstract
Antibody dependent enhancement (ADE) of infection is a safety concern for vaccine strategies. In a recent publication, Li et al. (Cell 184 :4203–4219, 2021) have reported that infection-enhancing antibodies directed against the N-terminal domain (NTD) of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein facilitate virus infection in vitro, but not in vivo. However, this study was performed with the original Wuhan/D614G strain. Since the Covid-19 pandemic is now dominated with Delta variants, we analyzed the interaction of facilitating antibodies with the NTD of these variants. Using molecular modeling approaches, we show that enhancing antibodies have a higher affinity for Delta variants than for Wuhan/D614G NTDs. We show that enhancing antibodies reinforce the binding of the spike trimer to the host cell membrane by clamping the NTD to lipid raft microdomains. This stabilizing mechanism may facilitate the conformational change that induces the demasking of the receptor binding domain. As the NTD is also targeted by neutralizing antibodies, our data suggest that the balance between neutralizing and facilitating antibodies in vaccinated individuals is in favor of neutralization for the original Wuhan/D614G strain. However, in the case of the Delta variant, neutralizing antibodies have a decreased affinity for the spike protein, whereas facilitating antibodies display a strikingly increased affinity. Thus, ADE may be a concern for people receiving vaccines based on the original Wuhan strain spike sequence (either mRNA or viral vectors). Under these circumstances, second generation vaccines with spike protein formulations lacking structurally-conserved ADE-related epitopes should be considered.

...

This notion of a dual NTD-raft recognition by an infection enhancing antibody may represent a new type of ADE that could be operative with other viruses. Incidentally, our data provide a mechanistic explanation of the FcR-independent enhancement of infection induced by anti-NTD antibodies1. The model we propose, which links for the first time lipid rafts to ADE of SARS-CoV-2, is in line with previous data showing that intact lipid rafts are required for ADE of dengue virus infection3.
Neutralizing antibodies directed against the NTD have also been detected in Covid-19 patients4,  5. The 4A8 antibody is a major representant of such antibodies5. The epitope recognized by this antibody on the flat NTD surface is dramatically affected in the NTD of Delta variants2, suggesting a significant loss of activity in vaccinated people exposed to Delta variants. More generally, it can be reasonably assumed that the balance between neutralizing and facilitating antibodies may greatly differ according to the virus strain (Fig. 2).

Current Covid-19 vaccines (either mRNA or viral vectors) are based on the original Wuhan spike sequence. Inasmuch as neutralizing antibodies overwhelm facilitating antibodies, ADE is not a concern. However, the emergence of SARS-CoV-2 variants may tip the scales in favor of infection enhancement. Our structural and modeling data suggest that it might be indeed the case for Delta variants.

In conclusion, ADE may occur in people receiving vaccines based on the original Wuhan strain spike sequence (either mRNA or viral vectors) and then exposed to a Delta variant. Although this potential risk has been cleverly anticipated before the massive use of Covid-19 vaccines6, the ability of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies to mediate infection enhancement in vivo has never been formally demonstrated. However, although the results obtained so far have been rather reassuring1, to the best of our knowledge ADE of Delta variants has not been specifically assessed. Since our data indicate that Delta variants are especially well recognized by infection enhancing antibodies targeting the NTD, the possibility of ADE should be further investigated as it may represent a potential risk for mass vaccination during the current Delta variant pandemic. In this respect, second generation vaccines7 with spike protein formulations lacking structurally-conserved ADE-related epitopes should be considered.

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Amused to Death said:

"Knock it off!" - every FBG trying to read this on their phone.

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People are trying to read this?

Zigg said:

People are trying to read this?

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Sorry, no. I should have been more specific. "This" is the thread. It takes a while to quickly scroll past GGs wall of text.

Hasn't it been shown, conclusively, that the safest folks out there right are the ones who had Covid and recovered and also got vaccinated? Hybrid immunity they're calling it.

Not sure why this is even an issue for discussion.   You have to catch covid and recover in order to have natural immunity, and the whole point of the vaccine is to slow down or eliminate the rate at which the population catches covid, because we've seen our health care system stretched to the breaking point by runaway infection rates.   

squistion said:

Only if The Lincoln Project also puts out selectively edited, doctored videos designed to be misleading or give the wrong impression and then refuses to show anyone the complete unedited footage. 

And with their known bias, I would never use The Lincoln Project as a source of information or to start threads based on what they have to say. 

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So yes 

LawFitz said:

Are boosters being pushed now b/c ADE is starting to play out among the vaxxed?

If so, is it fair for people to question whether further ADE is a potential risk of any booster formulations?

And how are these studies and data not enough to slow the drumbeat of mass mandates until more time plays out to see how the vaxxed are reacting to waning immunity and dealing with potential signs of ADE?

https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(21)00392-3/fulltext

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There is no evidence of clinically relevant ADE for vaccinated peeps. Even though delta has been the dominant strain for months, unvaccinated people still make up the bulk of serious cases/hospitalizations/deaths. If vaccine induced antibodies were a problem, that wouldn’t be true. Moreover, if scientists were concerned about ADE, the last thing they’d do is “push” boosters, which amplify antibody production.

So no, it isn’t a reasonable concern. Far more harm will be done by delaying vaccination than encouraging it.

Amused to Death said:

Sorry, no. I should have been more specific. "This" is the thread. It takes a while to quickly scroll past GGs wall of text.

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Ignore works just fine.

I have never met anyone who states their job title as "scientist" or "senior associate scientist."    Where do they find these people?  

(HULK) said:

Hasn't it been shown, conclusively, that the safest folks out there right are the ones who had Covid and recovered and also got vaccinated? Hybrid immunity they're calling it.

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Not exactly. Natural immunity + vaccine appears to be more potent than either alone, but the safety of this group remains unclear. Since the antivax folks are always concerned about the long term, there’s an accumulating body of literature which shows late sequelae of infection. Some problems may occur even among people with mild/no symptoms with initial infection, so “recovered” might not be the same as returning to one’s prior state of health.

Terminalxylem said:

Not exactly. Natural immunity + vaccine appears to be more potent than either alone, but the safety of this group remains unclear. Since the antivax folks are always concerned about the long term, there’s an accumulating body of literature which shows late sequelae of infection. Some problems may occur even among people with mild/no symptoms with initial infection, so “recovered” might not be the same as returning to one’s prior state of health.

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Are you aware of any studies addressing the difference in immunity between getting covid and then being vaccinated versus being vaccinated and then getting covid?  almost all of what I've read about "hybrid' immunity seems to assume getting covid first.

-fish- said:

Are you aware of any studies addressing the difference in immunity between getting covid and then being vaccinated versus being vaccinated and then getting covid?  almost all of what I've read about "hybrid' immunity seems to assume getting covid first.

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I know you weren’t asking me, but I just read an article on the subject. There aren’t any peer reviewed studies yet that I’ve seen, but it is being studied now, I believe. The article discusses some doctor’s feelings on the subject. I tend to agree with a few that it could cause some boost, maybe even a decent boost, but because of the way even a single vaccine will clear virus, I would think it’s not quite the same level of immune boost. That’s just my conjecture, though.

The Inquirer “ Will getting a breakthrough case of COVID-19 boost your immunity without a third shot?”

The Football Freak said:

I know you weren’t asking me, but I just read an article on the subject. There aren’t any peer reviewed studies yet that I’ve seen, but it is being studied now, I believe. The article discusses some doctor’s feelings on the subject. I tend to agree with a few that it could cause some boost, maybe even a decent boost, but because of the way even a single vaccine will clear virus, I would think it’s not quite the same level of immune boost. That’s just my conjecture, though.

The Inquirer “ Will getting a breakthrough case of COVID-19 boost your immunity without a third shot?”

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Thanks.   I got covid a little over a month ago, four months after my second Moderna shot, and I am eligible for a booster if and when Moderna approves them.   Just seems sort of unnecessary at this point.

-fish- said:

Thanks.   I got covid a little over a month ago, four months after my second Moderna shot, and I am eligible for a booster.   Just seems sort of unnecessary at this point.

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Oh, man. Sorry about that. I hope your feeling 100% again. I got Moderna, too. (Don’t tell the Pfizer people, we’ll never hear the end of their damn crowing)

I’d tend to agree with you, but I’m not a doctor, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Considering we know protections wane over time, what if you took antibody tests over a couple months, to see if your titers stay high or drop? If they stay consistent, would that speak to a good boost? (That last question is really for the docs in the house)