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Germany And France And The U.K. Better Arm Themselves If They Want Democracy Ascending. So Ought Canada. (1 Viewer)

rockaction

Footballguy
China, Iran, and Russia are all in cahoots. That's the axis. 

Whither ours? 

Germany needs to arm itself again and become a world power. So does France and the U.K. 

If they want to see democracy ascending, they'd better act like they can defend themselves from three dictatorial states -- autocratic, communist, theocratic -- that are using whatever economic and military might that they have. 

 
I've got a bat behind my door. Does this count?

I don't mean to make light cause I do agree. Putin and Xi are both incredibly intelligent and diabolical. And they aren't going anywhere for at least then next 2 decades. Pouring money into cyber defense might be the most important thing in the next few decades.

 
I've got a bat behind my door. Does this count?

I don't mean to make light cause I do agree. Putin and Xi are both incredibly intelligent and diabolical. And they aren't going anywhere for at least then next 2 decades. Pouring money into cyber defense might be the most important thing in the next few decades.
And cyber offense.  Much like a nuclear missile defense system, cyber defenders need to win every single battle, whereas cyber attackers only need to win once.

It's not enough just to try to prevent attacks.  Again, like nuclear weapons, a policy of Mutually Assured Destruction can help.  If we have the capability to, for example, shut down the entire power grid for China/Russia and they know it, it makes attacks from them less likely.

 
It does bother me to see the European countries with lower retirement ages and non-employer based low-out-of-pocket health insurance, and then compare the defense budgets per capita between them and the U.S. Glad we could help support those nice programs you've got there.

So basically we work longer, pay for-profit companies for health insurance, and our taxes go to a defense budget several orders of magnitude higher than any of these countries. While we're separated by an ocean on each side. 

WWII ended in 1945 folks. I certainly support a strong military for the reasons listed is posts above, but how about looking out for Joe Schmo USA citizens on some quality of life issues? You know, the citizens who pay the taxes who make the funds for the budget possible in the first place?

 
It does bother me to see the European countries with lower retirement ages and non-employer based low-out-of-pocket health insurance, and then compare the defense budgets per capita between them and the U.S. Glad we could help support those nice programs you've got there.

So basically we work longer, pay for-profit companies for health insurance, and our taxes go to a defense budget several orders of magnitude higher than any of these countries. While we're separated by an ocean on each side. 

WWII ended in 1945 folks. I certainly support a strong military for the reasons listed is posts above, but how about looking out for Joe Schmo USA citizens on some quality of life issues? You know, the citizens who pay the taxes who make the funds for the budget possible in the first place?
If we're being honest, though, the cause and effect here is flipped.  It's not "the US has a massive defense budget because Europe won't pay their fair share".  The real cause/effect is "Europe doesn't pay their fair share because the US has a massive defense budget".  The US has a massive defense budget because our Congress is in thrall to defense contractors.

 
If we're being honest, though, the cause and effect here is flipped.  It's not "the US has a massive defense budget because Europe won't pay their fair share".  The real cause/effect is "Europe doesn't pay their fair share because the US has a massive defense budget".  The US has a massive defense budget because our Congress is in thrall to defense contractors.
I think there is truth to this take and truth to what the OP is saying. As is typical, what makes the most long term sense isn't allowed through the gates when short sighted decisional processes own the castle. So it goes.

 
If we're being honest, though, the cause and effect here is flipped.  It's not "the US has a massive defense budget because Europe won't pay their fair share".  The real cause/effect is "Europe doesn't pay their fair share because the US has a massive defense budget".  The US has a massive defense budget because our Congress is in thrall to defense contractors.
Well yeah, but what are you gonna do, cut the military budget?  Hahaha hahaha!  What, do you hat the troops?  Soft on Putin? Loool! 

(I don't think you hate the troops, @Rich Conway...just making a point)

 
But Jon is right.   The dems aren't looking out for america.
Then maybe he can articulate as such without the (terrible) schtick, purposefully misquoting someone else?

You know what, Joe also asked us to not assign motives like "all democrats are our enemies" or "aren't looking out for America".  It's a pretty terrible post all around, and now you are defending it.  Cool.  Cool.

A thread about defense spending amongst our allies is interesting.  Unrelated partisan hackery from the usuals...ugh.  Boring.

 
Then maybe he can articulate as such without the (terrible) schtick, purposefully misquoting someone else?

You know what, Joe also asked us to not assign motives like "all democrats are our enemies" or "aren't looking out for America".  It's a pretty terrible post all around, and now you are defending it.  Cool.  Cool.

A thread about defense spending amongst our allies is interesting.  Unrelated partisan hackery from the usuals...ugh.  Boring.
Didnt you say the dems care about America and the Republicans care about themselves?

According to my notebook.

 
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Didnt you say the dems care about America and the Republicans care about themselves?

According to my notebook.
Not in this thread.  I may or may not have said something to that effect elsewhere but it's irrelevant to Germany, France, and the UK.  And Canada too.

 
Not in this thread.  I may or may not have said something to that effect elsewhere but it's irrelevant to Germany, France, and the UK.  And Canada too.
You said it.    So don't be so high and mighty.   

Some people might not think you are moralistically pure as you think you are.    But I might not agree with them.

 
China, Iran, and Russia are all in cahoots. That's the axis. 

Whither ours? 


Much of the basis of victory in WW2 was Lend/Lease.

Much of the basis of safety for Britain in WW2 was pure geography.

Australia, India, South Korea and Japan would all join the fight based on their own self interest and their own self preservation. Their locations force them into dynamics they can't avoid.  Russia can be swayed to sit out based on what amounts to a large scale payoff.

Most people didn't understand Herman Wouk's Winds Of War and War And Remembrance. The perspective of the German general who deeply questioned the resource management perspective of the Holocaust. Every able bodied Jew who was exterminated was one less foot soldier, one less pilot, one less engineer, one last factory worker for the overall cause. This doesn't even factor in the amount of resources needed to work the camps and do the administration.  Most people only understand WW2 based on what they see in movies. They aren't looking at the resource management factor that marred the total war effort. Germany's army was extremely dependent on horse power. Literal horses. Manufacturing complications created conflicts that weren't practical for war time production. Shifting from the MG38 to the MG42 too late for example. Poor usage of paratroopers ( Crete) The decision to fight a two front war. The decision to make the attack of Stalingrad a political statement instead of seeing the tactical realities. Losing Rommel for no good practical reason.

The way to win a war against America is by activating cells that use asymmetrical warfare to hit key targets that cripple our industrial capacity and food production.  Rail lines, major shipping hubs, major financial districts, water treatment plants, power plants, etc, etc. People can't work on assembly lines if they aren't eating and don't have core necessities.

That means war with the CCP needs to be quick. First step is to neutralize all their naval assets. Second step is to use the Kinetic Energy Weapon platforms that Space X put up in the sky to take out major civilian targets. The CCP will shroud critical military assets behind civilians. They are going to bet on America not having the guts to engage in the disproportional response. Their military establishment cannot hold up their propaganda if the average citizen keeps being told something different than what they are seeing with their own two eyes.

Basic rule of human behavior - Give people the illusion of a choice when the only pathways for them are lose/lose. The two options are the one you want and then the other is the one you know they will never take.

You don't let them determine what is the best two paths that offer the least resistance, you wipe out all other outside possibilities. This is the basis of the "fatal funnel", that scales up and scales down as fundamental tactics in practical combat. You don't ambush people in the open field. You take them in a car. Or in an elevator. Or drive them through a narrow hallway. You force them to only exit through one door.

Wars are won by excellent resource management by those steeped in a practical shooters mindset seasoned with actual trigger time. They aren't won by soft liberals who think the world can be tamed by more conversations.

Spreading war needs to be done by actual warriors. Not bureaucrats. Everyone wants an omelette but demands to weep over broken shells. If America wants to win a war against the CCP, there must be hard push to profile large civilian population centers as the primary strategic targets. The CCP can only be heeled by breaking the will of it's average citizens first. There's a reason leaders are taught "violence of action" in modern warfare. If you want to prevent the CCP from using biological/chemical weapons on US soil, the attack needs to happen first, by surprise and be overwhelming.

The person who shoots first does not always hit first, but they are guaranteed their enemies are taking a reactionary posture. Winners dictate the pace of engagement. Winners cannot be bound by invisible virtue signaling ethical boundaries. You can't fight an ethical war against China. Their philosophy of warfare makes any attempt at that an open death sentence.

Their children can die. Or your children can die.

You can always spot the soft bureaucrat with a weak handshake and unshined shoes by finding those who believe there exists a third choice.

 
But Jon is right.   The dems aren't looking out for america.
Yet another example of MAGA guys painting the other side with a broad brush.  Such a stupid and useless take.  Provides nothing of value to the conversation and just serves to irritate people.  You wouldn't like me to start posting some generalities about the MAGA crowd would you?  The folks who do this really need to check themsevles.

And China, Russia, and Iran?  Iran?  And I don't believe that China and Russia are exactly the best of friends.  In this interconnected world, the US is much closer to China's interest than Russia is.

The time of large wars has ended IMHO.  We are simply to vested in each other economically.  The world is too interconnected.

 
Yet another example of MAGA guys painting the other side with a broad brush.  Such a stupid and useless take.  Provides nothing of value to the conversation and just serves to irritate people.  You wouldn't like me to start posting some generalities about the MAGA crowd would you?  The folks who do this really need to check themsevles.

And China, Russia, and Iran?  Iran?  And I don't believe that China and Russia are exactly the best of friends.  In this interconnected world, the US is much closer to China's interest than Russia is.

The time of large wars has ended IMHO.  We are simply to vested in each other economically.  The world is too interconnected.
I was actually  calling out moleculo's holier than  thou's response by reminding  what he said about a week ago.

I don't think democrats hate America.  I just think they  are wrong.

 
China, Iran, and Russia are all in cahoots. That's the axis. 

Whither ours? 

Germany needs to arm itself again and become a world power. So does France and the U.K. 

If they want to see democracy ascending, they'd better act like they can defend themselves from three dictatorial states -- autocratic, communist, theocratic -- that are using whatever economic and military might that they have. 
I don't see how you can lump Iran in here other than them being patently anti-democratic. They have minimal economic or military power.

 
Yet another example of MAGA guys painting the other side with a broad brush.  Such a stupid and useless take.  Provides nothing of value to the conversation and just serves to irritate people.  You wouldn't like me to start posting some generalities about the MAGA crowd would you?  The folks who do this really need to check themsevles.

And China, Russia, and Iran?  Iran?  And I don't believe that China and Russia are exactly the best of friends.  In this interconnected world, the US is much closer to China's interest than Russia is.

The time of large wars has ended IMHO.  We are simply to vested in each other economically.  The world is too interconnected.
Not according to Anne Applebaum, writing in the Atlantic. I tend to believe her in her assessment. China, Russia, and Iran are the three leading anti-democratic states in the world. Why is that important? Because they no longer seek international approval for their rogue actions. Instead, they merely band together with policy in mind and the international credibility they seek comes from their own axis. Are they sovereign? Sure, but they're more allied with each other than with the U.S. 

 
Notice how the Democrats in here rush in to pooh-pooh threats, notice how the right puts them in cahoots with these states. Both wrong, and interesting to watch. One capitulates, one blames the capitulation on a form of traitor-esque thinking rather than understanding the problem differently. 

 
Notice how the Democrats in here rush in to pooh-pooh threats, notice how the right puts them in cahoots with these states. Both wrong, and interesting to watch. One capitulates, one blames the capitulation on a form of traitor-esque thinking rather than understanding the problem differently. 
I agree that such countries are threats.  I'm just not sure what the realistic options are.  We're not going to war with China or Russia.  Sanctions aren't terribly effective.  Cyber warfare?

 
Notice how the Democrats in here rush in to pooh-pooh threats
I think I missed something?  I admit I only scanned the thread, but I didn't see this.

China and Russia (and Iran) being broadly allied and working to undermine the democratic west is the biggest geopolitical threat in the world right now. 

It can probably only go so far with one being a Muslim state, another being white Christian nationlists intent on restoring an empire that included a bunch of Muslims, and another where religion isn't much of a factor, but that has built a massive network of concentration camps to imprison Muslims, but in the meantime they have enough juice to cause a lot of problems by jointly putting pressure on the US and democratic allies.  Especially to the extent that the US is weak and divided or there is virtually no public support for us to act as a counterweight.

Put Trump and Biden aside, there's just not a winning message in confronting these adversaries aggressively right now.  It's bad politics.  And our allies don't trust us.  Seems like it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

 
I think I missed something?  I admit I only scanned the thread, but I didn't see this.

China and Russia (and Iran) being broadly allied and working to undermine the democratic west is the biggest geopolitical threat in the world right now. 

It can probably only go so far with one being a Muslim state, another being white Christian nationlists intent on restoring an empire that included a bunch of Muslims, and another where religion isn't much of a factor, but that has built a massive network of concentration camps to imprison Muslims, but in the meantime they have enough juice to cause a lot of problems by jointly putting pressure on the US and democratic allies.  Especially to the extent that the US is weak and divided or there is virtually no public support for us to act as a counterweight.

Put Trump and Biden aside, there's just not a winning message in confronting these adversaries aggressively right now.  It's bad politics.  And our allies don't trust us.  Seems like it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
I agree with almost all of this, but I think you missed James and Z Machine debating the premise, which is all well and good -- it's a message board -- but it seems like they're two traditionally guys from the left who are debating the notion that these countries can work together to destabilize the U.S. and attempt to diminish its importance. 

That's really what I was saying with the "pooh-poohing" part of that. Most people seem to agree with the premise but would likely proceed in vastly different ways and with different nuance. 

 
I agree that such countries are threats.  I'm just not sure what the realistic options are.  We're not going to war with China or Russia.  Sanctions aren't terribly effective.  Cyber warfare?
I think the recognition that they are threats is the first step and I'm not sure everybody is there yet. 

 
They're certainly threats to the ideal of countries around the world developing healthy representative democracies which respect individual liberties. They are trying to present an alternative: surrender those ideals and we'll make your lives more stable and prosperous.

I just tend to think that the solution is to build the greatest democracy the world has ever seen, one that others will want to emulate, and is a better path than the military option.

I've also seen speculation from strategic thinkers that future demographic problems are providing the impetus for increased Russian/Chinese aggression: that they both realize that their windows are closing.

 
I think we should load up a military presence in Ukraine. Show the world this will not be tolerated. An attack on 1 is an attack on all.

 
Notice how the Democrats in here rush in to pooh-pooh threats, notice how the right puts them in cahoots with these states. Both wrong, and interesting to watch. One capitulates, one blames the capitulation on a form of traitor-esque thinking rather than understanding the problem differently. 


What's the risk versus reward for invading Ukraine?

The critical battlezones, if it happened, would be Donbass and Crimea. The conditions here are much different than what happened in Georgia ( Humorous to me that the low information voters in our ranks will immediately start shouting that this is what happens when Trump keeps calling Brian Kemp and prays that Stacey Abrams has lots of shotgun shells in her dresser drawer)

There's no acceptable narrative in place for media cover to support an invasion. It can't just be a tactical assessment, it has to have some kind of selling point. Wars are justified in the media and in the press. Combined with economic sanctions and all this amounts to more saber rattling. It's too expensive as of today. Georgia was a different situation entirely.

The common argument would be if Ukraine falls, then it's going to trigger the fall of Taiwan as well. If the CCP wants to take it there, then let them. What kind of practical asset base does China have there? The real "invasion" starts long before it hits the headlines. It's not a huge secret about the Uighurs being forcibly sterilized and having their organs harvested.

The battle for Taiwan boils down to logistics. Local forces simply need to raise the trade off cost structure for attempting to take all the major ports and airports. The Taiwan Strait would turn into a bottleneck kill zone. At last resort, Taiwan would unleash it's chemical weapons arsenal that everyone pretends doesn't exist. Taiwan just needs to make the trade brutal in terms of ratio. For everyone one of their assets lost, they need to inflict 10 from the CCP.

There is zero doubt in my mind that if China invades Taiwan, that the the latter will unleash it's entire chemical weapons platform onto mainland China.

This goes back to Lend/Lease in WW2. Our resource base and other people's blood. How badly would China be bled out first before it turns into a stand up fight with America?

But my position remains the same. Thuycides Trap. War with China is inevitable. America should just strike first. And yes, the GOP is better positioned for this. Nikki Haley has more foreign policy experience than any other 2024 contender. DeSantis at least has a military background. The best the DNC can drive forward is Buttigieg, Abrams and Newsom for 2024. Newsom is a human sock puppet for Pelosi, how is that going to work out. Abrams has proven she just needs to be paid to fold like a deck of cards. Buttigieg, even with his military background, in the Oval Office would literally invite our enemies to start carpet bombing us. Biden and Harris are zeros. Ask yourself an open, fair and honest question - Do you believe you actually understand the mechanics of warfare?

You are saying the worldwide landscape is at risk but you aren't calculating the resource management aspect of China and/or Russia starting a fight. When Patton and Rommel squared off, it came down to gasoline. All the strategy and experience in the world mean nothing without the asset base to hold onto an extended fight.

The weakness of the CCP is ruthlessness and being devoid of mercy without pragmatism. If you set the reputation that you'll turn Taiwan into modern day Carthage, then you've set up a battle where people will simply fight to the death. To the last man, to the last bullet, to their very teeth. As ugly as it sounds, beating China is not about taking out their major military assets, it's inflicting savage losses on their civilian population. That triggers internal revolt that turns any war into a simultaneous Civil War plus one with NATO.

War is math problem. How many supply ships to Europe can those U Boats sink? How many of those ships can the US build, load and produce to overcome the projected losses those U Boats will inflict? Who loses the game of time first? Ask yourself if you are looking at the math here.

 
Ask yourself an open, fair and honest question - Do you believe you actually understand the mechanics of warfare?
No, I don't. As a matter of fact, I am not a foreign policy expert in the least. But I think you have my motive for why I started this thread confused with another motive. My motive is not to show how much of an expert in foreign policy I am, nor is it to posit anything but baseline stuff. The baseline: Democracies ought to get busy defending the righteousness of the democratic project. 

These are dark days. I am simply saying that democracies need to be fundamentally assured of their justice and goodness as entities. They need to re-arm themselves, to militarize. They can no longer be beholden to past injustices and fallen empires and the sting of genocidal endeavors. They must be convinced of their own righteousness in order to defend their own houses. 

Iran will defend its own conception of the good, no matter how evil it is. Russian will defend its own kleptocrats. China will defend its own communist/autocrats. It is up for the people of the world to see this, to ally, and to unite for the defense of our way of life. 

That is what this thread is about. Democracy ascendant. 

But I take issue with one assertion of yours, your main one: 

I do not think your doom and gloom scenario of war with China will happen. 

The U.S. does not start wars. We are a democratic people beholden to democratic impulses, and those impulses tend toward the preservation of life at all costs these days. We have no stomach for an extended, traditional war like you describe with the sinking of boats and the release of weapons and civilian deaths as a tertiary result of those weapons. Nor does the Chinese people. Neither populace will stand for it. 

You give short shrift to the mob. And by that I mean the essential base of all governments. The security of one's self, of life, of having given yourself over to organizations that we oversee our own protection with. The State of Nature guys that believed solitary life in pre-societal being was nasty, brutish, and short (Locke and Hobbes) had the first impulse correct. We organize to stop the killing. That is the great motivating factor behind starting political organizations. Security. Survival. Life. 

While it may seem ironic that the reaches of organized killing has reached a zenith with the onset of nuclear and chemical weapons when we have organized for precisely the opposite reason is not lost of me. But you underestimate the power emanating from the people. They will not tolerate large losses like you endeavor to portend and claim will happen. There will be revolt and governments will be torn asunder before war is declared by any major power against another. Mutually assured destruction is still a heavy deterrent in the halls of foreign policy. 

The question, then, becomes who will follow through on destruction if assured? The Democrats seem to offer little in that regard. Not the modern Democrats anyway, scared of their societies, debating whether their own society is just and good. 

No, nor the Republicans to be trusted, having squandered away so much Cold War capital on foreign adventurism in the Middle East. 

Nor are the latter two assertions what the thread is urging.

Democracies, unite! You have nothing to lose but your world! 

 
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Interesting topic Rock.  I’ve always said that Trump was ahead of his time in shaking up the world order.  Like most things Trump though, a good idea was lost in the morass of poor execution and communication.  The post WWII world order has long outlived its usefulness.  The balance of power is no longer Euro-centric.  Pax Americana is dead.  We are now living in a dangerous situation where there’s a clear triumvirate of world powers with the USA, China and Russia.  I think Trump was on to something by cozying up to Russia, even if it was a blind squirrel finding a nut.  Culturally we have more in common with Russia.  I’ve spent time there, even when they were the USSR, and I believe this to be true.  China in my opinion is the world’s emerging Superpower, and we will need to counterbalance that to keep stability in the world.  But the Dems hate Russia which is leaving us on the outside looking in.  Very dangerous times when there’s an imbalance of power.  Historically this has always led to conflict.

 
I think Trump was on to something by cozying up to Russia, even if it was a blind squirrel finding a nut.  Culturally we have more in common with Russia.  I’ve spent time there, even when they were the USSR, and I believe this to be true.
I don't think I agree with this, but thanks for the other sentiments.

I think Russia has always had trouble modernizing in European (and therefore American) ways, back to Peter The Great. But I'm a dilettante like I said and there are others that know much more than I do. I know broad schematics. 

What did you see in your time there that leads you to believe this assertion? 

Again, just a thread to urge democracies to consider the rightness of their projects and to use their economic might to defend themselves and this way of life. I include Scandinavia and other Northern European countries in the request, too. 

 
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I don't think I agree with this, but thanks for the other sentiments.

I think Russia has always had trouble modernizing in European (and therefore American) ways, back to Peter The Great. But I'm a dilettante like I said and there are others that know much more than I do. I know broad schematics. 

What did you see in your time there that leads you to believe this assertion? 

Again, just a thread to urge democracies to consider the rightness of their projects and to use their economic might to defend themselves and this way of life. I include Scandinavia and other Northern European countries in the request, too. 
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  And imo Chins is a much bigger threat than Russia.

I spent a couple weeks in the USSR in 1988, and I found Russians and Americans to be very much culturally aligned.  First off, both nations are huge into sports.  I know it sounds trite but it’s still a cultural reality.  The young people I met in Russia were fascinated with America.  We hooked up with a group of them at one of our tourist spots and ended up going to their pad for a night of trading. When I entered their apartment the walls were painted with all sorts of American icons, including a dollar bill.  We partied all night - must have drank two huge bottles of vodka.  One of the coolest experiences of my life and totally changed my opinion of the country.  I was also surprised to see so many Christians in Russia.  Crosses and crucifixes everywhere.  The people were stoic, hearty and resourceful, kind of like the pioneers who settled this country.  They loved Ronald Reagan, which in my mind was evidence of this.  We also have the  commonality of WWII, the Cold War, and scientific progress.

This is not just my opinion either.  I had the opportunity to visit the American Embassy while I was there, and met one on one with a high ranking American official.  We spoke at length about the country and he affirmed my observations.

I’m probably biased on this issue because I had such an amazing time there.  I also acknowledge that I’ve never been to China so it’s probably weak of me to make such an assessment.  But I still believe I’d be much more comfortable aligning with Russia than China.

 
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  And imo Chins is a much bigger threat than Russia.

I spent a couple weeks in the USSR in 1988, and I found Russians and Americans to be very much culturally aligned.  First off, both nations are huge into sports.  I know it sounds trite but it’s still a cultural reality.  The young people I met in Russia were fascinated with America.  We hooked up with a group of them at one of our tourist spots and ended up going to their pad for a night of trading. When I entered their apartment the walls were painted with all sorts of American icons, including a dollar bill.  We partied all night - must have drank two huge bottles of vodka.  One of the coolest experiences of my life and totally changed my opinion of the country.  I was also surprised to see so many Christians in Russia.  Crosses and crucifixes everywhere.  The people were stoic, hearty and resourceful, kind of like the pioneers who settled this country.  They loved Ronald Reagan, which in my mind was evidence of this.  We also have the  commonality of WWII, the Cold War, and scientific progress.

This is not just my opinion either.  I had the opportunity to visit the American Embassy while I was there, and met one on one with a high ranking American official.  We spoke at length about the country and he affirmed my observations.

I’m probably biased on this issue because I had such an amazing time there.  I also acknowledge that I’ve never been to China so it’s probably weak of me to make such an assessment.  But I still believe I’d be much more comfortable aligning with Russia than China.
Thanks for sharing. That is interesting. But even in our Christianity, a schism maybe between Russian Orthodox and Roman Catholic (the majority of American Catholics)? And also, love of the American pursuit of money doesn't mean restrained capitalism formed from a Protestant ethic. But I don't know. Like I said, a dilettante. 

My niece is heavily involved in Russian affairs at UCLA. She does stuff with Kazakhstan studies and studies Russian, Hebrew (we're Catholic), and Molecular Science (IIRC). She watches Russia keenly as she's supposed to go abroad next year or so. I don't know for sure her take on things, but I'd like to hear it now that you've said that. 

 
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If you’ve ever seen the play “A Walk in the Woods” it’s a great example of the kinship and connection between Americans and Russians.  Americans are ridiculously optimistic, and Russians are the complete opposite.  When I visited the WWII Memorial in Leningrad it literally brought me to tears.  The names on the walls went on forever.  By some estimates over 1 million civilians lost their lives, more than the combined death toll of Great Britain and the USA.  The tour guide asked us to be on the lookout for old Russian men.  There weren’t any.  Lots of old women, but no old men.

 
Thanks for sharing. That is interesting. But even in our Christianity, a schism maybe between Russian Orthodox and Roman Catholic (the majority of American Catholics)? And also, love of the American pursuit of money doesn't mean restrained capitalism formed from a Protestant ethic. But I don't know. Like I said, a dilettante. 

My niece is heavily involved in Russian affairs at UCLA. She does stuff with Kazakhstan studies and studies Russian, Hebrew (we're Catholic), and Molecular Science (IIRC). She watches Russia keenly as she's supposed to go abroad next year or so. I don't know for sure her take on things, but I'd like to hear it now that you've said that. 
I actually believe that the Russian orthodoxy was pretty close to Catholicism.  I visited a monetary one night (long story) and was able to follow along pretty well with the mass since it was in Latin.  There were three funerals going on at once and it was one of the most bizarre experiences of my life.  All because my Mom asked me to bring her back a Byzantine cross.

Your question on Capitalism is a good one.  I came away with the impression that most Russians didn’t care too much for Communism. The Russians obviously have a strong authoritarian streak - that much can’t be denied. But my impression from the people I met was that free enterprise was still very popular.  That and $5.50 will get you a bowl of soup - just relaying my observations based on the people I met (including a high ranking US official).

 
I’m probably biased on this issue because I had such an amazing time there.  I also acknowledge that I’ve never been to China so it’s probably weak of me to make such an assessment.  But I still believe I’d be much more comfortable aligning with Russia than China.


I've spent several months across several major cities in China.  It was like I was in another universe outside of Hong Kong.  My American websites were blocked, many places were filthy and poor, they were reticent/afraid to talk politics and they for the most part saw me as a curiosity and kept to themselves.

It is a polar opposite culture IMHO.  

ETA:  I've been to quite a few countries, and China stuck out like a sore thumb in comparison to most of them.  Closest experience was probably the Middle Eastern countries where the cultures are obviously very different there as well.

 
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I actually believe that the Russian orthodoxy was pretty close to Catholicism
I thought so, too. I was merely pointing out that there's an official schism between the Roman Catholic Church and the Russian Orthodox Church. The similarities/differences? That's beyond my pay grade, and probably pretty important to understand the Russian people. Like I said, dilettante. 

 
You’re no dilettante Rock.  You’re one of the smartest people I know. 


Thanks, ekbeats. And the same in return. And I don't say that lightly. When it comes to this stuff, though? World affairs and understanding European and Asian cultures and history? I'm way behind the eight ball. I sort of live in a world of ideas and observation. I love the Enlightenment and think it holds the answers to so many political problems. But knowing Continental Europe and Asia histories are sort of beyond my ken, and those are cultures not rooted in Enlightenment tradition. 

There are just other forces, intellectual histories, and cultural dialectics that I do not know. This is why we defer to experts at times.

In keeping with the thread, I do know that when I rebut Gekko I stand on firm ground because of my understanding of how democracies and autocracies work. And theoretical and practical governance, too. Those proclamations of war with China upthread are mistaken, if you ask me. We may very well one day be at war with them. But launching a preemptive war sounds like a disaster. 

And I'm skeptical that we're that similar with Russia. As you point out, our dispositions are very different. I think the philosophies and dialectical operations that informs those dispositions are wildly different. So I'm skeptical and hard to win over as far as considering Russia an ally or a balancing pivot against China, so to speak. I don't think Trump was that Nixonian in his view of Russia, and I'm not sure any President has been on solid footing as far as understanding Russia since Reagan and Bush. 

 
@rockactionand @ekbeats.  Way to much civil high level political discussion going on here between the two of you.  You’re both long time posters and know this is strictly forbidden.  Can we please introduce either some partisan shtick, trolling or fishing into your next posts or I will be forced to report you both.  Thank you.  

 
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@rockactionand @ekbeats.  Way to much civil high level political discussion going on here between the two of you.  You’re both long time posters and know this is strictly forbidden.  Can we please introduce either some partisan shtick, trolling or fishing into your next posts or I will be forced to report you both.  Thank you.  
😆 So true.

 
@rockactionand @ekbeats.  Way to much civil high level political discussion going on here between the two of you.  You’re both long time posters and know this is strictly forbidden.  Can we please introduce either some partisan shtick, trolling or fishing into your next posts or I will be forced to report you both.  Thank you.  
Thanks, @dkp993. If you'd seen me a night ago, you wouldn't have said that about me. 

:)

I wonder whether dkp could be in a good mood...heh. Good on you. Enjoy it. Next week gets tough, too. I don't even know who I'm pulling for, just looking for a good game. 

 
Thanks, @dkp993. If you'd seen me a night ago, you wouldn't have said that about me. 

:)

I wonder whether dkp could be in a good mood...heh. Good on you. Enjoy it. Next week gets tough, too. I don't even know who I'm pulling for, just looking for a good game. 
Hey brother we all ebb and flow. 
 

Definitely in a good mood.  Had it gone the other way I likely wouldn’t be on right now as the iPad would likely have been thrown in the pool.  Lol. 

 
Watch yourself. Joe asked us to not edit other peoples post and do the FYP schtick.
I'm okay. I vehemently disagree with what he's saying, though. I think the Democrats problem is their lack of faith in the system as it exists. The need for reform is one thing, but to insist on reforms of the entire system resting upon the claims that the system is inherently unjust as landed does a great disservice to our country. Sometimes the way to sell reform is to sell the system short, and I think Democrats are guilty of allying with people who believe that is the way to go. 

I do not believe that the reasonable and good people of the Democratic Party are in cahoots with China, Russia, and Iran. The extreme may be, but that in no way accounts for the majority or even a tiny minority of elected officials. I can think of only about four or five real enemies of the state in the Democratic Party. 

 
Hey brother we all ebb and flow. 
 

Definitely in a good mood.  Had it gone the other way I likely wouldn’t be on right now as the iPad would likely have been thrown in the pool.  Lol. 
Lol. Notice our pool. Notice there is no iPad in it. 

As for me, I'm trying to be better. I failed the other night. I've apologized and am hopeful to move on. 

 
Lol. Notice our pool. Notice there is no iPad in it. 

As for me, I'm trying to be better. I failed the other night. I've apologized and am hopeful to move on. 
My wife took our daughter and left the house this afternoon as she knew it might get “passionate” during the game.  Lol.  She was not wrong.  

 

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