Shane Vereen vs. Stevan Ridley (1 Viewer)

[Ed Stephens]

It sounds like if you draft one, you pretty much have to draft the other. Unless they fall really late, I'm avoiding this mess altogether.

I dont think so. I just drafted Vereen in a .5 PPR league as about RB50. You can take a late flier on him, maybe he develops, or maybe he doesn't and the backfield is too unclear to figure out, and its a wasted pick. At the point in the draft, it's worth it. There's no reason to double my risk exposure to Bellichick by taking both of them, Ridley likely at 6th-8th round price tag.

Agreed, especially if this hammy issue lingers for Ridley. He is worth a 6-8 round pick, if you expect him to get 200+ carries, (approximately) 1000 yards, & (around) 10 TDs. If he misses some time, Vereen has the opportunity to seize a bigger role, making his current ADP a value pick, & Ridley a reach.

Any roster size less than 16 isn't worth the space for either.

 

[Bayhawks]

So much for those 5ypc Itchy Amos and Bayhawks lol. I have to side with talent, same situation in Washington with Helu and Royster, I'm not comfortable drafting guys who's backups are better than them. Vereen looks faster, more agile, better hands, a lot stronger and was the higher pick in last years draft. That's not debatable. If he made one more guy miss all the experts who just glace at boxscores would be saying the same, so would you if you watched the game.

I'm more intrigued with his potential to be featured in such a great offense and not so much like he's the most talented guy ever. Woodhead and Ridley had a shot at one point or another and haven't ran away with the job yet. You get a chance to bet on the best horse at a better price, you can't beat that.

So much for Vereen looking faster, more agile ShaHBucks lol. Seriously, though-2 YPC, not good. With Ridley losing the tenuous hold he had on the lead RB role, and Vereen not really seizing that role, it looks to me like RBBC.

If you think Vereen will step up and be "The guy" at some point this year (and you feel he's a value at his ADP), take him. He could be the home-run pick that wins you your league. For me, with Ridley's ADP where it is (although it could be coming down, now), he's not worth it.

Lol I doubt you even watched the game. Just a cliff note, it was NE backups vs Philly swarming 1st team running defence, end of story. Only plays worth noting was in the pass game where Vereen is light years ahead of Ridley. Three targets and no catches, one screen play Ridley didn't even turn his head to look at the ball. Bellicheck is a weird dude with players making stupid mistakes(see Chad Johnson). They also played together on one play, Ridley stayed in to block, Vereen ran a rout. That was interesting.

I watched the whole game. I was able to watch it without any bias, however.How come Vereen's great performance with NE backups in game one matters, but his weak performance with NE backups in game two doesn't? Seems like you've already decided that Vereen is "great" and choose to see whatever "supports" that belief.

As I said earlier, it looks like neither back has seized the job now (contrary to previous reports that had Ridley in the #1 RB role). If Vereen's ADP doesn't rise, I "might" be comfortable taking him late, as a flier, but (as of right now) I wouldn't be counting on him for any consistent, reliable production. With Ridley's ADP where it is right now, I wouldn't touch him.

ETA-for argument's sake: if it was NE's backups playing early, what does that say about Vereen, since he was playing early?

 

[jsharlan]

So much for those 5ypc Itchy Amos and Bayhawks lol. I have to side with talent, same situation in Washington with Helu and Royster, I'm not comfortable drafting guys who's backups are better than them. Vereen looks faster, more agile, better hands, a lot stronger and was the higher pick in last years draft. That's not debatable. If he made one more guy miss all the experts who just glace at boxscores would be saying the same, so would you if you watched the game.

I'm more intrigued with his potential to be featured in such a great offense and not so much like he's the most talented guy ever. Woodhead and Ridley had a shot at one point or another and haven't ran away with the job yet. You get a chance to bet on the best horse at a better price, you can't beat that.

So much for Vereen looking faster, more agile ShaHBucks lol. Seriously, though-2 YPC, not good. With Ridley losing the tenuous hold he had on the lead RB role, and Vereen not really seizing that role, it looks to me like RBBC.

If you think Vereen will step up and be "The guy" at some point this year (and you feel he's a value at his ADP), take him. He could be the home-run pick that wins you your league. For me, with Ridley's ADP where it is (although it could be coming down, now), he's not worth it.

Lol I doubt you even watched the game. Just a cliff note, it was NE backups vs Philly swarming 1st team running defence, end of story. Only plays worth noting was in the pass game where Vereen is light years ahead of Ridley. Three targets and no catches, one screen play Ridley didn't even turn his head to look at the ball. Bellicheck is a weird dude with players making stupid mistakes(see Chad Johnson). They also played together on one play, Ridley stayed in to block, Vereen ran a rout. That was interesting.

I watched the whole game. I was able to watch it without any bias, however.How come Vereen's great performance with NE backups in game one matters, but his weak performance with NE backups in game two doesn't? Seems like you've already decided that Vereen is "great" and choose to see whatever "supports" that belief.

As I said earlier, it looks like neither back has seized the job now (contrary to previous reports that had Ridley in the #1 RB role). If Vereen's ADP doesn't rise, I "might" be comfortable taking him late, as a flier, but (as of right now) I wouldn't be counting on him for any consistent, reliable production. With Ridley's ADP where it is right now, I wouldn't touch him.

ETA-for argument's sake: if it was NE's backups playing early, what does that say about Vereen, since he was playing early?

Probably because running against the Eagles first team defense with your 2nd team offensive line is different than running against a 2nd team defense with your 2nd team offensive line. Its difficult to judge his ability to break tackles or move in the open field when there is no hole to run through to begin with.

 

[Shutout]

Nothing looked good enough to measure last night. Very odd situation where you go into it with two teams having very different agendas. With the Pats sitting almost 30 players, its really hard to see anything for what it might really be when the real team is out there.

With that being said, I think what is obvious is the obvious (kind of odd with the Pats because we are always looking for what is behind curtain number 2 or up their sleeve). But in this case, I think its straight forward. They have Ridley as the move the chain guy with Bolden working to be his backup and also work on special teams to justify his spot. They have Woodhead as the 3rd down back with Vareen likely to usurp that from him if he continues to improve.

I really see these roles as mutually exclusive. I don't see any one back that is going to be part of all these roles.

I DO see 2-back alignments WITHOUT a true FB in there a lot and that could suggest they will roll some combination of the two out there and not tip what their plan is. But the caveat in that is they could easily put Hernandez in there in one of those RB spots when the real games start.

 

[Bayhawks]

So much for those 5ypc Itchy Amos and Bayhawks lol. I have to side with talent, same situation in Washington with Helu and Royster, I'm not comfortable drafting guys who's backups are better than them. Vereen looks faster, more agile, better hands, a lot stronger and was the higher pick in last years draft. That's not debatable. If he made one more guy miss all the experts who just glace at boxscores would be saying the same, so would you if you watched the game.

I'm more intrigued with his potential to be featured in such a great offense and not so much like he's the most talented guy ever. Woodhead and Ridley had a shot at one point or another and haven't ran away with the job yet. You get a chance to bet on the best horse at a better price, you can't beat that.

So much for Vereen looking faster, more agile ShaHBucks lol. Seriously, though-2 YPC, not good. With Ridley losing the tenuous hold he had on the lead RB role, and Vereen not really seizing that role, it looks to me like RBBC.

If you think Vereen will step up and be "The guy" at some point this year (and you feel he's a value at his ADP), take him. He could be the home-run pick that wins you your league. For me, with Ridley's ADP where it is (although it could be coming down, now), he's not worth it.

Lol I doubt you even watched the game. Just a cliff note, it was NE backups vs Philly swarming 1st team running defence, end of story. Only plays worth noting was in the pass game where Vereen is light years ahead of Ridley. Three targets and no catches, one screen play Ridley didn't even turn his head to look at the ball. Bellicheck is a weird dude with players making stupid mistakes(see Chad Johnson). They also played together on one play, Ridley stayed in to block, Vereen ran a rout. That was interesting.

I watched the whole game. I was able to watch it without any bias, however.How come Vereen's great performance with NE backups in game one matters, but his weak performance with NE backups in game two doesn't? Seems like you've already decided that Vereen is "great" and choose to see whatever "supports" that belief.

As I said earlier, it looks like neither back has seized the job now (contrary to previous reports that had Ridley in the #1 RB role). If Vereen's ADP doesn't rise, I "might" be comfortable taking him late, as a flier, but (as of right now) I wouldn't be counting on him for any consistent, reliable production. With Ridley's ADP where it is right now, I wouldn't touch him.

ETA-for argument's sake: if it was NE's backups playing early, what does that say about Vereen, since he was playing early?

Probably because running against the Eagles first team defense with your 2nd team offensive line is different than running against a 2nd team defense with your 2nd team offensive line. Its difficult to judge his ability to break tackles or move in the open field when there is no hole to run through to begin with.

No offense, but read the whole thread. After the 1st preseason game, a few posters (including ShaHBucks) believed that Vereen's performance was better than Ridley's, dis-regarding the fact that Ridley ran against 1st stringers & Vereen ran against 3rd stringers. My point was merely, if you are going to "bump up" Vereen for that performance, you have to "downgrade" him for this one. Here is the post from ShaHBucks: "Vereen, against 3rd stringers for the forum police, wowed me the way he ran being so fast and shifty...Round 1 went to Vereen." Well, Vereen, against 1st stringers, didn't look so fast or shifty, so who does Round 2 go to, according to ShaHBucks? Vereen, big surprise.

 

[KCitons]

I watched the entire game last night. I am a Vereen owner in deep dynasty. He is my #5 RB right now behind Forte, FJax, D Brown, P Thomas. I don't see that status changing anytime soon based on last nights performance. Neither back took a giant step forward.

I did take last nights performance with a grain of salt. The lack of Brady, Welker, Gronk, Lloyd, makes a huge difference in how the Philly defense played this game. (and how Vereen performed)

 

[Banger]

with both of these guys not impressing I'm wondering if Woodhead is the play with your last pick.

 

[MAC_32]

None of them are in my top 40 RB's and I think there are more interesting fliers late, so unless it's a 2 RB + flex league of more than 12 teams I won't be considering them. I'll consider one if available if I need someone to cover a bye or an injury, but I'd draft a 3rd QB before I'd draft a Pats RB.

 

[DawnBTVS]

Didn't get to see how Ridley did but some thoughts on how Vereen performed...

- Showed some shiftiness against a very tough run D. Often had to make a move in the backfield just to get 1-2 yard gains on most plays. Did as much as he could given the struggles by the OL. Seems like the NE OL struggled from the first play in both running and pass protection so it's hard to gauge the skill players.

- Showed solid hands and was often a check down option or utilized on screens. Again, the OL didn't help him very much but he did have a 20 yard screen catch and almost busted another short dump but ran towards the sideline rather than inside his offensive lineman blocking a Philly defender.

- Did split out wide when the Patriots went to empty formations.

- Small, minor note but he did run in a 2 point conversion attempt.

 

[BallparkFrank]

Last night was like watching the Bad News Bears versus the Yankees. It's a shame Vereen's first start had to come with the scrubs as the Patriots still haven't seen him run with the 1's in a game to know what they have. Bolden seems eerily similar to Ridley and probably the exact same size, too. The one thing that seems pretty clear in the first two games is that Vereen is the superior pass catcher in the group - even to Woodhead and he looked quite capable on the goal line in converting the 2pt conversion. The rest is still pretty murky with this group.

 

[solorca]

In a pick 'em situation, I'd take Ridley...but at current value, it's easily Vereen for me. In my draft this past Saturday, Ridley went in the sixth round, while I picked up Vereen as my RB6 in the 14th round. At that point, why not take a shot on the guy?

 

[Bayhawks]

In a pick 'em situation, I'd take Ridley...but at current value, it's easily Vereen for me. In my draft this past Saturday, Ridley went in the sixth round, while I picked up Vereen as my RB6 in the 14th round. At that point, why not take a shot on the guy?

Agreed. Ridley had a shot at the job, and seems to have lost his hold on it (fumbling & injury). Vereen hasn't seized it (yet); maybe he will, maybe he won't, but with my draft this weekend, unless something changes this week, I wouldn't draft Ridley where he's at, and I might take a shot at Vereen, but only as a RB4, at the highest.

 

[strong]

Didn't get to see how Ridley did but some thoughts on how Vereen performed...

- Showed some shiftiness against a very tough run D. Often had to make a move in the backfield just to get 1-2 yard gains on most plays. Did as much as he could given the struggles by the OL. Seems like the NE OL struggled from the first play in both running and pass protection so it's hard to gauge the skill players.

- Showed solid hands and was often a check down option or utilized on screens. Again, the OL didn't help him very much but he did have a 20 yard screen catch and almost busted another short dump but ran towards the sideline rather than inside his offensive lineman blocking a Philly defender.

- Did split out wide when the Patriots went to empty formations.

- Small, minor note but he did run in a 2 point conversion attempt.

They kicked the extra point, then after the Eagles were called for offsides (?), after a moment's hesitation Belichick sent Vereen back out there to hammer it in from the 1. Reading the tea leaves here, but I think that was a Belichick test and Vereen (and the 2nd string O line) passed.

 

[Itchy Amos]

Nothing looked good enough to measure last night. Very odd situation where you go into it with two teams having very different agendas. With the Pats sitting almost 30 players, its really hard to see anything for what it might really be when the real team is out there.

With that being said, I think what is obvious is the obvious (kind of odd with the Pats because we are always looking for what is behind curtain number 2 or up their sleeve). But in this case, I think its straight forward. They have Ridley as the move the chain guy with Bolden working to be his backup and also work on special teams to justify his spot. They have Woodhead as the 3rd down back with Vareen likely to usurp that from him if he continues to improve.

I really see these roles as mutually exclusive. I don't see any one back that is going to be part of all these roles.

I DO see 2-back alignments WITHOUT a true FB in there a lot and that could suggest they will roll some combination of the two out there and not tip what their plan is. But the caveat in that is they could easily put Hernandez in there in one of those RB spots when the real games start.

This is pretty much how I see it as well. I'm hoping that Ridley starts to slip a bit. I'd feel better about getting him in Rounds 7 or 8, but I think he will have value in a Leroy Hoard/Marion Barber kind of way. The goal line back (if it is one guy) is likely going to have 10+ TDs this year. IMO, Ridley is still the favorite to have this role as long as he doesnt fumble again. I'm hoping that this situation clears up a bit over the next couple of weeks.

 

[Itchy Amos]

So much for those 5ypc Itchy Amos and Bayhawks lol. I have to side with talent, same situation in Washington with Helu and Royster, I'm not comfortable drafting guys who's backups are better than them. Vereen looks faster, more agile, better hands, a lot stronger and was the higher pick in last years draft. That's not debatable. If he made one more guy miss all the experts who just glace at boxscores would be saying the same, so would you if you watched the game. I'm more intrigued with his potential to be featured in such a great offense and not so much like he's the most talented guy ever. Woodhead and Ridley had a shot at one point or another and haven't ran away with the job yet. You get a chance to bet on the best horse at a better price, you can't beat that.

I'm in complete agreement with you that if you think Vereen is going to be the primary ball carrier, you should be excited to draft him in the late rounds.The point that I was trying to make was that before anyone can definitively decree that Vereen is clearly more talented than Ridley, we need to see him in meaningful action first. You are fond of suggesting that I (and others who have disagreed with you) havent watched the games. First of all, you're wrong. Second of all, if you are basing your evaluation of the two based upon what you've seen them do in the NFL, then you are basing your assessment of Vereen off of a combination of two or three good runs that he had in week 11 of last year and some reps that he got in preseason while playing with & against scrubs. Thats it. His performance in week 12 last year, as well as last night's performance wasnt anything to get too excited about. Ridley actually played in 13 or 14 games last year. I watched every minute of those games. From what I saw there, he looked to be pretty talented. Perhaps you disagree. Thats ok.With all that said, if Ridley cant get his fumbling issues under wraps, he's not going to play - no matter how talented he may or may not be. I'm in complete agreement with you that Vereen represents a very good late pickup because whoever has goal line duty is going to have solid value. I still think that Ridley is likely to be the short yardage & goal line back, but that hasnt exactly been set in stone yet.

 

[jsharlan]

So much for those 5ypc Itchy Amos and Bayhawks lol. I have to side with talent, same situation in Washington with Helu and Royster, I'm not comfortable drafting guys who's backups are better than them. Vereen looks faster, more agile, better hands, a lot stronger and was the higher pick in last years draft. That's not debatable. If he made one more guy miss all the experts who just glace at boxscores would be saying the same, so would you if you watched the game.

I'm more intrigued with his potential to be featured in such a great offense and not so much like he's the most talented guy ever. Woodhead and Ridley had a shot at one point or another and haven't ran away with the job yet. You get a chance to bet on the best horse at a better price, you can't beat that.

So much for Vereen looking faster, more agile ShaHBucks lol. Seriously, though-2 YPC, not good. With Ridley losing the tenuous hold he had on the lead RB role, and Vereen not really seizing that role, it looks to me like RBBC.

If you think Vereen will step up and be "The guy" at some point this year (and you feel he's a value at his ADP), take him. He could be the home-run pick that wins you your league. For me, with Ridley's ADP where it is (although it could be coming down, now), he's not worth it.

Lol I doubt you even watched the game. Just a cliff note, it was NE backups vs Philly swarming 1st team running defence, end of story. Only plays worth noting was in the pass game where Vereen is light years ahead of Ridley. Three targets and no catches, one screen play Ridley didn't even turn his head to look at the ball. Bellicheck is a weird dude with players making stupid mistakes(see Chad Johnson). They also played together on one play, Ridley stayed in to block, Vereen ran a rout. That was interesting.

I watched the whole game. I was able to watch it without any bias, however.How come Vereen's great performance with NE backups in game one matters, but his weak performance with NE backups in game two doesn't? Seems like you've already decided that Vereen is "great" and choose to see whatever "supports" that belief.

As I said earlier, it looks like neither back has seized the job now (contrary to previous reports that had Ridley in the #1 RB role). If Vereen's ADP doesn't rise, I "might" be comfortable taking him late, as a flier, but (as of right now) I wouldn't be counting on him for any consistent, reliable production. With Ridley's ADP where it is right now, I wouldn't touch him.

ETA-for argument's sake: if it was NE's backups playing early, what does that say about Vereen, since he was playing early?

Probably because running against the Eagles first team defense with your 2nd team offensive line is different than running against a 2nd team defense with your 2nd team offensive line. Its difficult to judge his ability to break tackles or move in the open field when there is no hole to run through to begin with.

No offense, but read the whole thread. After the 1st preseason game, a few posters (including ShaHBucks) believed that Vereen's performance was better than Ridley's, dis-regarding the fact that Ridley ran against 1st stringers & Vereen ran against 3rd stringers. My point was merely, if you are going to "bump up" Vereen for that performance, you have to "downgrade" him for this one. Here is the post from ShaHBucks: "Vereen, against 3rd stringers for the forum police, wowed me the way he ran being so fast and shifty...Round 1 went to Vereen." Well, Vereen, against 1st stringers, didn't look so fast or shifty, so who does Round 2 go to, according to ShaHBucks? Vereen, big surprise.

I'm aware of the point of view you are referring to, and if he had the same performance last night behind the starting offense I think you would have a valid point. My point is its not a valid comparison when the level of defensive talent is above the offensive at every position. I didn't track how many they kept in the box, but I doubt the Philly defense was sitting back in deep zones in fear of Mallett and Dion Branch. Getting excited about him lighting it up against 3rd stringers might be premature, but he was doing it behind an equally subpar offensive cast, which is not the same thing as struggling behind an outmatched unit at every position.

 

[Donnybrook]

All the secrecy in New England on who is starting, who's hurt and who is in or out of favor makes me happy to avoid the entire mess.

 

[ShaHBucks]

Ok I guess I look like Shane Vereen's little cousin or something. lol I'll probably leave this thread alone after this because I see what happens when you say something beyond popular belief in this forum. For one my opinion doesn't come from just this preseason.

I had Ridley on my teams last year a game BEFORE he ran for 97 yards and a TD because I knew a BJGE alternate was needed. While everyone was scrambling on waivers and dropping FAAB dollars down the drain I already looked ahead of the curve. What happened next? 7 carries for 13 yards in the following week, we were all rewarded with 1 fantasy point and we chalk it up to Bellicheck being Bellicheck. His next 30 carries went for 83 yards. But why is every one excited? week 15-17 Ridley actually played well in two blowouts and a meaningless game vs Miami though he had no TD's, no 100 yard games, and no receptions.

In college Ridley had one game with 25+ carries, he ran 28 times for 83yds and no TD's. Vereen had 6 games with that many touches and went for over 100 in each to go along with 9 td's. Vereen avg like 2 catches a game in college, Ridley less than one per. At the combine Ridley benched 18 reps to Vereens 31. Both are pretty agile, Vereen is faster. So you ask yourself who actually has a chance to be a featured back in the Patriots offense? Who can run inside, outside, be effective in the pass game and doesn't have to come off of the field? Ridley no.. Woodhead no... I don't gamble on backs unless they fit that profile, idc if it's a starter or a late flyer I don't want a reason for you to come off the field when it's your chance. Especially giving how great this O-Line and Offense is as a whole.

If I'm wrong so be it, keep replying to my stupid post letting me hear how wrong I am. I don't mind being wrong if my process is right. I'm not saying "own both." Or "Vereen is the later pick." "Avoid this situation." No the thread is Ridley vs Vereen and I took a stance.

 

[Time Kibitzer]

Nothing looked good enough to measure last night. Very odd situation where you go into it with two teams having very different agendas. With the Pats sitting almost 30 players, its really hard to see anything for what it might really be when the real team is out there.

With that being said, I think what is obvious is the obvious (kind of odd with the Pats because we are always looking for what is behind curtain number 2 or up their sleeve). But in this case, I think its straight forward. They have Ridley as the move the chain guy with Bolden working to be his backup and also work on special teams to justify his spot. They have Woodhead as the 3rd down back with Vareen likely to usurp that from him if he continues to improve.

I really see these roles as mutually exclusive. I don't see any one back that is going to be part of all these roles.

I DO see 2-back alignments WITHOUT a true FB in there a lot and that could suggest they will roll some combination of the two out there and not tip what their plan is. But the caveat in that is they could easily put Hernandez in there in one of those RB spots when the real games start.

What have the Patriots or Belichick done that suggests to you that the bolded is obvious or straight forward? The fact that this thread is 5 pages long suggests that nothing is obvious or straight forward at this point.

 

[Bayhawks]

So much for those 5ypc Itchy Amos and Bayhawks lol. I have to side with talent, same situation in Washington with Helu and Royster, I'm not comfortable drafting guys who's backups are better than them. Vereen looks faster, more agile, better hands, a lot stronger and was the higher pick in last years draft. That's not debatable. If he made one more guy miss all the experts who just glace at boxscores would be saying the same, so would you if you watched the game.

I'm more intrigued with his potential to be featured in such a great offense and not so much like he's the most talented guy ever. Woodhead and Ridley had a shot at one point or another and haven't ran away with the job yet. You get a chance to bet on the best horse at a better price, you can't beat that.

So much for Vereen looking faster, more agile ShaHBucks lol. Seriously, though-2 YPC, not good. With Ridley losing the tenuous hold he had on the lead RB role, and Vereen not really seizing that role, it looks to me like RBBC.

If you think Vereen will step up and be "The guy" at some point this year (and you feel he's a value at his ADP), take him. He could be the home-run pick that wins you your league. For me, with Ridley's ADP where it is (although it could be coming down, now), he's not worth it.

Lol I doubt you even watched the game. Just a cliff note, it was NE backups vs Philly swarming 1st team running defence, end of story. Only plays worth noting was in the pass game where Vereen is light years ahead of Ridley. Three targets and no catches, one screen play Ridley didn't even turn his head to look at the ball. Bellicheck is a weird dude with players making stupid mistakes(see Chad Johnson). They also played together on one play, Ridley stayed in to block, Vereen ran a rout. That was interesting.

I watched the whole game. I was able to watch it without any bias, however.How come Vereen's great performance with NE backups in game one matters, but his weak performance with NE backups in game two doesn't? Seems like you've already decided that Vereen is "great" and choose to see whatever "supports" that belief.

As I said earlier, it looks like neither back has seized the job now (contrary to previous reports that had Ridley in the #1 RB role). If Vereen's ADP doesn't rise, I "might" be comfortable taking him late, as a flier, but (as of right now) I wouldn't be counting on him for any consistent, reliable production. With Ridley's ADP where it is right now, I wouldn't touch him.

ETA-for argument's sake: if it was NE's backups playing early, what does that say about Vereen, since he was playing early?

Probably because running against the Eagles first team defense with your 2nd team offensive line is different than running against a 2nd team defense with your 2nd team offensive line. Its difficult to judge his ability to break tackles or move in the open field when there is no hole to run through to begin with.

No offense, but read the whole thread. After the 1st preseason game, a few posters (including ShaHBucks) believed that Vereen's performance was better than Ridley's, dis-regarding the fact that Ridley ran against 1st stringers & Vereen ran against 3rd stringers. My point was merely, if you are going to "bump up" Vereen for that performance, you have to "downgrade" him for this one. Here is the post from ShaHBucks: "Vereen, against 3rd stringers for the forum police, wowed me the way he ran being so fast and shifty...Round 1 went to Vereen." Well, Vereen, against 1st stringers, didn't look so fast or shifty, so who does Round 2 go to, according to ShaHBucks? Vereen, big surprise.

I'm aware of the point of view you are referring to, and if he had the same performance last night behind the starting offense I think you would have a valid point. My point is its not a valid comparison when the level of defensive talent is above the offensive at every position. I didn't track how many they kept in the box, but I doubt the Philly defense was sitting back in deep zones in fear of Mallett and Dion Branch. Getting excited about him lighting it up against 3rd stringers might be premature, but he was doing it behind an equally subpar offensive cast, which is not the same thing as struggling behind an outmatched unit at every position.

And my point is its not a valid comparison (between Ridley and Vereen) when Ridley was running against the opposition's top D, while Vereen was running against the opposition's 3rd stringers. If those who are high on Vereen are going to tout him because of his week 1 performance (against inferior defenders), they have to acknowledge his weaker performance against superior defenders.

 

[BallparkFrank]

So much for those 5ypc Itchy Amos and Bayhawks lol. I have to side with talent, same situation in Washington with Helu and Royster, I'm not comfortable drafting guys who's backups are better than them. Vereen looks faster, more agile, better hands, a lot stronger and was the higher pick in last years draft. That's not debatable. If he made one more guy miss all the experts who just glace at boxscores would be saying the same, so would you if you watched the game.

I'm more intrigued with his potential to be featured in such a great offense and not so much like he's the most talented guy ever. Woodhead and Ridley had a shot at one point or another and haven't ran away with the job yet. You get a chance to bet on the best horse at a better price, you can't beat that.

So much for Vereen looking faster, more agile ShaHBucks lol. Seriously, though-2 YPC, not good. With Ridley losing the tenuous hold he had on the lead RB role, and Vereen not really seizing that role, it looks to me like RBBC.

If you think Vereen will step up and be "The guy" at some point this year (and you feel he's a value at his ADP), take him. He could be the home-run pick that wins you your league. For me, with Ridley's ADP where it is (although it could be coming down, now), he's not worth it.

Lol I doubt you even watched the game. Just a cliff note, it was NE backups vs Philly swarming 1st team running defence, end of story. Only plays worth noting was in the pass game where Vereen is light years ahead of Ridley. Three targets and no catches, one screen play Ridley didn't even turn his head to look at the ball. Bellicheck is a weird dude with players making stupid mistakes(see Chad Johnson). They also played together on one play, Ridley stayed in to block, Vereen ran a rout. That was interesting.

I watched the whole game. I was able to watch it without any bias, however.How come Vereen's great performance with NE backups in game one matters, but his weak performance with NE backups in game two doesn't? Seems like you've already decided that Vereen is "great" and choose to see whatever "supports" that belief.

As I said earlier, it looks like neither back has seized the job now (contrary to previous reports that had Ridley in the #1 RB role). If Vereen's ADP doesn't rise, I "might" be comfortable taking him late, as a flier, but (as of right now) I wouldn't be counting on him for any consistent, reliable production. With Ridley's ADP where it is right now, I wouldn't touch him.

ETA-for argument's sake: if it was NE's backups playing early, what does that say about Vereen, since he was playing early?

Probably because running against the Eagles first team defense with your 2nd team offensive line is different than running against a 2nd team defense with your 2nd team offensive line. Its difficult to judge his ability to break tackles or move in the open field when there is no hole to run through to begin with.

No offense, but read the whole thread. After the 1st preseason game, a few posters (including ShaHBucks) believed that Vereen's performance was better than Ridley's, dis-regarding the fact that Ridley ran against 1st stringers & Vereen ran against 3rd stringers. My point was merely, if you are going to "bump up" Vereen for that performance, you have to "downgrade" him for this one. Here is the post from ShaHBucks: "Vereen, against 3rd stringers for the forum police, wowed me the way he ran being so fast and shifty...Round 1 went to Vereen." Well, Vereen, against 1st stringers, didn't look so fast or shifty, so who does Round 2 go to, according to ShaHBucks? Vereen, big surprise.

I'm aware of the point of view you are referring to, and if he had the same performance last night behind the starting offense I think you would have a valid point. My point is its not a valid comparison when the level of defensive talent is above the offensive at every position. I didn't track how many they kept in the box, but I doubt the Philly defense was sitting back in deep zones in fear of Mallett and Dion Branch. Getting excited about him lighting it up against 3rd stringers might be premature, but he was doing it behind an equally subpar offensive cast, which is not the same thing as struggling behind an outmatched unit at every position.

And my point is its not a valid comparison (between Ridley and Vereen) when Ridley was running against the opposition's top D, while Vereen was running against the opposition's 3rd stringers. If those who are high on Vereen are going to tout him because of his week 1 performance (against inferior defenders), they have to acknowledge his weaker performance against superior defenders.

This debate is getting a bit petty. Here's one thing we do know: We know what Ridley can do playing with a HOF QB and the Patriots first team offense. We have NO idea what Shane Vereen can do playing with a HOF QB and the Patriots first team offense. I think it's in the Patriots best interest to find that out in the remaining preseason games. Go from there.

 

[Bayhawks]

Ok I guess I look like Shane Vereen's little cousin or something. lol I'll probably leave this thread alone after this because I see what happens when you say something beyond popular belief in this forum. For one my opinion doesn't come from just this preseason.I had Ridley on my teams last year a game BEFORE he ran for 97 yards and a TD because I knew a BJGE alternate was needed. While everyone was scrambling on waivers and dropping FAAB dollars down the drain I already looked ahead of the curve. What happened next? 7 carries for 13 yards in the following week, we were all rewarded with 1 fantasy point and we chalk it up to Bellicheck being Bellicheck. His next 30 carries went for 83 yards. But why is every one excited? week 15-17 Ridley actually played well in two blowouts and a meaningless game vs Miami though he had no TD's, no 100 yard games, and no receptions. In college Ridley had one game with 25+ carries, he ran 28 times for 83yds and no TD's. Vereen had 6 games with that many touches and went for over 100 in each to go along with 9 td's. Vereen avg like 2 catches a game in college, Ridley less than one per. At the combine Ridley benched 18 reps to Vereens 31. Both are pretty agile, Vereen is faster. So you ask yourself who actually has a chance to be a featured back in the Patriots offense? Who can run inside, outside, be effective in the pass game and doesn't have to come off of the field? Ridley no.. Woodhead no... I don't gamble on backs unless they fit that profile, idc if it's a starter or a late flyer I don't want a reason for you to come off the field when it's your chance. Especially giving how great this O-Line and Offense is as a whole.If I'm wrong so be it, keep replying to my stupid post letting me hear how wrong I am. I don't mind being wrong if my process is right. I'm not saying "own both." Or "Vereen is the later pick." "Avoid this situation." No the thread is Ridley vs Vereen and I took a stance.

You keep suggesting that Vereen can be the "featured back," and that he can run inside, outside, be effective in the pass game, and doesn't have to come off the field. You say Ridley and Woodhead aren't that guy, but you think Vereen is.Here's the point: Vereen hasn't show that he's that guy either, not in the NFL. After the first pre-season game (in this thread), I didn't say Vereen sucks. What I said is "when he does that (performs well) against the 1st stringers, then you have something to be excited about." That's it-he had a shot last night, and he didn't peform nearly as well. Can you attribute that to the lack of offensive talent playing around him? Sure, but the point still remains: Vereen hasn't shown, in the NFL, that he can be that feature back. Has he shown that he can be an effective passing weapon? Yes. Has he shown the burst and speed to be effective outside? Yes. Has he shown the ability to be an effective inside runner, AGAINST 1st STRINGERS? Not yet. Will he get another chance on Friday? Maybe, and maybe he will demonstrate that he can be that guy. But his performance in the 1st pre-season game doesn't prove that, nor does his performance in the 2nd pre-season game, no matter how much you want to suggest that it does.

 

[Bayhawks]

So much for those 5ypc Itchy Amos and Bayhawks lol. I have to side with talent, same situation in Washington with Helu and Royster, I'm not comfortable drafting guys who's backups are better than them. Vereen looks faster, more agile, better hands, a lot stronger and was the higher pick in last years draft. That's not debatable. If he made one more guy miss all the experts who just glace at boxscores would be saying the same, so would you if you watched the game.

I'm more intrigued with his potential to be featured in such a great offense and not so much like he's the most talented guy ever. Woodhead and Ridley had a shot at one point or another and haven't ran away with the job yet. You get a chance to bet on the best horse at a better price, you can't beat that.

So much for Vereen looking faster, more agile ShaHBucks lol. Seriously, though-2 YPC, not good. With Ridley losing the tenuous hold he had on the lead RB role, and Vereen not really seizing that role, it looks to me like RBBC.

If you think Vereen will step up and be "The guy" at some point this year (and you feel he's a value at his ADP), take him. He could be the home-run pick that wins you your league. For me, with Ridley's ADP where it is (although it could be coming down, now), he's not worth it.

Lol I doubt you even watched the game. Just a cliff note, it was NE backups vs Philly swarming 1st team running defence, end of story. Only plays worth noting was in the pass game where Vereen is light years ahead of Ridley. Three targets and no catches, one screen play Ridley didn't even turn his head to look at the ball. Bellicheck is a weird dude with players making stupid mistakes(see Chad Johnson). They also played together on one play, Ridley stayed in to block, Vereen ran a rout. That was interesting.

I watched the whole game. I was able to watch it without any bias, however.How come Vereen's great performance with NE backups in game one matters, but his weak performance with NE backups in game two doesn't? Seems like you've already decided that Vereen is "great" and choose to see whatever "supports" that belief.

As I said earlier, it looks like neither back has seized the job now (contrary to previous reports that had Ridley in the #1 RB role). If Vereen's ADP doesn't rise, I "might" be comfortable taking him late, as a flier, but (as of right now) I wouldn't be counting on him for any consistent, reliable production. With Ridley's ADP where it is right now, I wouldn't touch him.

ETA-for argument's sake: if it was NE's backups playing early, what does that say about Vereen, since he was playing early?

Probably because running against the Eagles first team defense with your 2nd team offensive line is different than running against a 2nd team defense with your 2nd team offensive line. Its difficult to judge his ability to break tackles or move in the open field when there is no hole to run through to begin with.

No offense, but read the whole thread. After the 1st preseason game, a few posters (including ShaHBucks) believed that Vereen's performance was better than Ridley's, dis-regarding the fact that Ridley ran against 1st stringers & Vereen ran against 3rd stringers. My point was merely, if you are going to "bump up" Vereen for that performance, you have to "downgrade" him for this one. Here is the post from ShaHBucks: "Vereen, against 3rd stringers for the forum police, wowed me the way he ran being so fast and shifty...Round 1 went to Vereen." Well, Vereen, against 1st stringers, didn't look so fast or shifty, so who does Round 2 go to, according to ShaHBucks? Vereen, big surprise.

I'm aware of the point of view you are referring to, and if he had the same performance last night behind the starting offense I think you would have a valid point. My point is its not a valid comparison when the level of defensive talent is above the offensive at every position. I didn't track how many they kept in the box, but I doubt the Philly defense was sitting back in deep zones in fear of Mallett and Dion Branch. Getting excited about him lighting it up against 3rd stringers might be premature, but he was doing it behind an equally subpar offensive cast, which is not the same thing as struggling behind an outmatched unit at every position.

And my point is its not a valid comparison (between Ridley and Vereen) when Ridley was running against the opposition's top D, while Vereen was running against the opposition's 3rd stringers. If those who are high on Vereen are going to tout him because of his week 1 performance (against inferior defenders), they have to acknowledge his weaker performance against superior defenders.

This debate is getting a bit petty. Here's one thing we do know: We know what Ridley can do playing with a HOF QB and the Patriots first team offense. We have NO idea what Shane Vereen can do playing with a HOF QB and the Patriots first team offense. I think it's in the Patriots best interest to find that out in the remaining preseason games. Go from there.

I'm not sure why it's "petty." You essentially posted what I've been posting: that when/if Vereen shows he can be effective (specifically running between the tackles) against 1st string defenders, then he could be "the guy" in NE. If not, it's likely to be a RBBC, with Ridley getting 1st/2nd down work, and Vereen & Woodhead sharing 3rd down duties.

 

[BallparkFrank]

I wasn't singling out you - just the debate in general which seemingly boils down to "I own Ridley vs. I own Vereen"

To me, I care more about seeing what Vereen can do WITH the first team offense in a game than anything. We really haven't seen him get that chance yet like we have with Ridley.

(I own both)

 

[ShaHBucks]

I watched this game again last night. I don't want to beat a dead horse but Vereen didn't look as bad as his numbers, he was touched in the backfield in at least 7 of those runs. But that's not my point.

Pats are not know for putting players in position where they won't succeed. Vereen first touch was off tackle. Second was up the middle. Third was a screen pass. The rest was up the middle or a pass. Might be a tell that they view him as a every down back, not just a "change of pace" because he's strong as hell. He was moving piles and getting extra yards against the best run D I've seen all preseson. It might sound dumb as hell but those 10 carries for 20 yard were impressive giving how hard he ran. Sooner or later he'll be the guy getting 15+ touches with the Brady Bunch. Everyone thinks Bellichek would rather a committee, I say that's all he had to work with since Dillon.

 

[duaneok66]

I watched this game again last night. I don't want to beat a dead horse but Vereen didn't look as bad as his numbers, he was touched in the backfield in at least 7 of those runs. But that's not my point. Pats are not know for putting players in position where they won't succeed. Vereen first touch was off tackle. Second was up the middle. Third was a screen pass. The rest was up the middle or a pass. Might be a tell that they view him as a every down back, not just a "change of pace" because he's strong as hell. He was moving piles and getting extra yards against the best run D I've seen all preseson. It might sound dumb as hell but those 10 carries for 20 yard were impressive giving how hard he ran. Sooner or later he'll be the guy getting 15+ touches with the Brady Bunch. Everyone thinks Bellichek would rather a committee, I say that's all he had to work with since Dillon.

I didnt think he did all that well inside. We will see - hopefully he gets to play with the starters tonight.

 

[Boston]

I watched this game again last night. I don't want to beat a dead horse but Vereen didn't look as bad as his numbers, he was touched in the backfield in at least 7 of those runs. But that's not my point. Pats are not know for putting players in position where they won't succeed. Vereen first touch was off tackle. Second was up the middle. Third was a screen pass. The rest was up the middle or a pass. Might be a tell that they view him as a every down back, not just a "change of pace" because he's strong as hell. He was moving piles and getting extra yards against the best run D I've seen all preseson. It might sound dumb as hell but those 10 carries for 20 yard were impressive giving how hard he ran. Sooner or later he'll be the guy getting 15+ touches with the Brady Bunch. Everyone thinks Bellichek would rather a committee, I say that's all he had to work with since Dillon.

If BB had a stud RB I agree he would treat him as a stud RB...the problem is I don't see either Ridley or Vereen being that much better than the other...right now I would not try to out-think this and plan on both of these guys getting their share and if one gets hurt you may have something that could turn out to be a legit fantasy starter...I really think it's that simple as of 8/24 and will remain that way unless one of these kids starts fumbling or does something (like getting Brady hammered) that causes BB to lose trust...if both kids play hard and up to their talent BB is not going to bury one of them...that's not his MO...

 

[shader]

I watched this game again last night. I don't want to beat a dead horse but Vereen didn't look as bad as his numbers, he was touched in the backfield in at least 7 of those runs. But that's not my point. Pats are not know for putting players in position where they won't succeed. Vereen first touch was off tackle. Second was up the middle. Third was a screen pass. The rest was up the middle or a pass. Might be a tell that they view him as a every down back, not just a "change of pace" because he's strong as hell. He was moving piles and getting extra yards against the best run D I've seen all preseson. It might sound dumb as hell but those 10 carries for 20 yard were impressive giving how hard he ran. Sooner or later he'll be the guy getting 15+ touches with the Brady Bunch. Everyone thinks Bellichek would rather a committee, I say that's all he had to work with since Dillon.

If BB had a stud RB I agree he would treat him as a stud RB...the problem is I don't see either Ridley or Vereen being that much better than the other...right now I would not try to out-think this and plan on both of these guys getting their share and if one gets hurt you may have something that could turn out to be a legit fantasy starter...I really think it's that simple as of 8/24 and will remain that way unless one of these kids starts fumbling or does something (like getting Brady hammered) that causes BB to lose trust...if both kids play hard and up to their talent BB is not going to bury one of them...that's not his MO...

Yep. BB is going to put them in situations to succeed. Ridley will no doubt vulture the TD's and get a lot of first down and short yardage carries. Vereen will play an expanded Woodhead role. I think it's a full-blown RBBC unless one gets hurt.

 

[Bayhawks]

I watched this game again last night. I don't want to beat a dead horse but Vereen didn't look as bad as his numbers, he was touched in the backfield in at least 7 of those runs. But that's not my point. Pats are not know for putting players in position where they won't succeed. Vereen first touch was off tackle. Second was up the middle. Third was a screen pass. The rest was up the middle or a pass. Might be a tell that they view him as a every down back, not just a "change of pace" because he's strong as hell. He was moving piles and getting extra yards against the best run D I've seen all preseson. It might sound dumb as hell but those 10 carries for 20 yard were impressive giving how hard he ran. Sooner or later he'll be the guy getting 15+ touches with the Brady Bunch. Everyone thinks Bellichek would rather a committee, I say that's all he had to work with since Dillon.

If BB had a stud RB I agree he would treat him as a stud RB...the problem is I don't see either Ridley or Vereen being that much better than the other...right now I would not try to out-think this and plan on both of these guys getting their share and if one gets hurt you may have something that could turn out to be a legit fantasy starter...I really think it's that simple as of 8/24 and will remain that way unless one of these kids starts fumbling or does something (like getting Brady hammered) that causes BB to lose trust...if both kids play hard and up to their talent BB is not going to bury one of them...that's not his MO...

Yep. BB is going to put them in situations to succeed. Ridley will no doubt vulture the TD's and get a lot of first down and short yardage carries. Vereen will play an expanded Woodhead role. I think it's a full-blown RBBC unless one gets hurt.

My thinking earlier in the pre-season was along this lines.I felt that Ridley was going to assume the BJGE role, but early camp reports had him looking the best of all the NE RBs, and I began to think he might get more than just the BJGE role (certainly not a "workhorse" RB, but 250 touches; 230 rush, 20 rec, double digit TDs). However, with reports of his fumbling seeming to return, and then his minor injury, and then Vereen starting to look much better than he did early in TC (according to reports), the idea of a RBBC returned. I will likely stay away from this situation, though, because it now seems that even if one gets hurt, the RBBC will remain intact. If Vereen gets hurt, Woodhead would likely fill his role, and if Ridley gets hurt, Bolden (by all accounts) has looked good, and would likely fill his role. What's more, they recently signed Jeff Demps, and although he was likely signed for his return abilities, I could see him filling an offensive role if Vereen or Woodhead were to go down.I don't see that Vereen was "impressive" in the 2nd game (not trying to agitate ShaHBucks, he's seeing what he wants to see), and I don't see the Pats relying on them as the 1st/2nd down RB, if something were to happen to Ridley. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen/heard anything (other than from ShaHBucks) to suggest that they would.

 

[David Yudkin]

Yep. BB is going to put them in situations to succeed. Ridley will no doubt vulture the TD's and get a lot of first down and short yardage carries. Vereen will play an expanded Woodhead role. I think it's a full-blown RBBC unless one gets hurt.

I sort of disagree with this. The Pats have almost always had one guy be a primary guy, one guy as a secondary or situational guy, and another back as a true specialist (change of pace / 3rd down back). As I see it, either Ridley or Vereen will get a fair amount of work more than the other to the point that the primary one will be fantasy relevant. If one of them gets hurt, even better.If people want to call that a full blown RBBC, so be it, but I still think that there will be one guy that gets the ball roughly 15 times a game consistently, similar to Maroney or BJGE.

 

[duaneok66]

Ridley started the game tonight.

 

[duaneok66]

Vereen in on the 3rd series.

 

[bostonfred]

Vereen in on the 3rd series.

Stuffed, and left the field hopping.

 

[duaneok66]

uh oh.

 

[bostonfred]

Ridley with a nice run on the next play. Pats have been pretty rb heavy so far this game. Ridley being featured in game three, after vereen owned game two where none of the starters played, is telling.

Vereen on the bench getting his ankle looked at.

 

[David Yudkin]

FWIW, Deion Branch was interviewed the other day and said there is no real meaning or intent by who plays with who, against whom, and when each player plays in preseason games. He said BB wanted to try people in different situations and playing in different combinations to see how hard people played and who worked well together. So his point was it is imnpossible to conclude anything by what the Pats are doing in the preseason.

 

[hines]

what are all these comments about "the fumbling" problem of Ridley based on? he fumbled twice last year and once in training camp correct?

 

[bostonfred]

Next up, a draw play to ridley and a pass to ridley out of the backfield. Announcers talking openly about how ridley is probably the starter.

 

[bostonfred]

Pass play to hernandez, then another run to ridley up the gut, and another outside, which he breaks for a 30 yard gain

 

[bostonfred]

Ridley from the 6 on first down, picks up 5. 2nd and foal from the 1, I formation, ridley td.

 

[Bayhawks]

Ridley from the 6 on first down, picks up 5. 2nd and foal from the 1, I formation, ridley td.

So, is this the point where ShaHBucks comes in to the thread and says that Vereen is the more talented, explosive back?

 

[cobalt_27]

Vereen in on the 3rd series.

Someone give me a compelling reason to keep this bum?

 

[duaneok66]

Vereen in on the 3rd series.

Someone give me a compelling reason to keep this bum?

was thinking the same thing.

 

[bostonfred]

Next drive, first play pass to woodhead for 8. Run to woodhead for 1 if that. Fullback for a yard. 4th and 1, when tom brady inevitably sneaks during the regular season, they bring in ridley. Stuffed. Turnover on downs

 

[bostonfred]

Connor barth with a 56 yard field goal. I know most people don't care about kickers, but barth got franchised in the offseason after a sick field goal percentage on too few attempts. With big upgrades on offense and defense, the bucs should be a much better scoring team this year. Accuracy, distance and imrproved offense is a good indicator for a sleeper kicker imo.

 

[bostonfred]

3rd and 13, hernandez, branch, woodhead and lloyd out to pass, pass goes to branch for 13.5. He may be option number 6, but he will still get a few yards this year. Project accordingly.

 

[bostonfred]

Nice screen to ridley. No word yet on vereens ankle but this is the ridley show. Pats o line looks pretty rough so far, although its worth noting that the pats have less preseason time together than the bucs due to their starter boycott last week.

 

[bostonfred]

Connor barth with a 56 yard field goal. I know most people don't care about kickers, but barth got franchised in the offseason after a sick field goal percentage on too few attempts. With big upgrades on offense and defense, the bucs should be a much better scoring team this year. Accuracy, distance and imrproved offense is a good indicator for a sleeper kicker imo.

Barth with another 50 yarder before halftime...

 

[Shutout]

Nothing looked good enough to measure last night. Very odd situation where you go into it with two teams having very different agendas. With the Pats sitting almost 30 players, its really hard to see anything for what it might really be when the real team is out there.

With that being said, I think what is obvious is the obvious (kind of odd with the Pats because we are always looking for what is behind curtain number 2 or up their sleeve). But in this case, I think its straight forward. They have Ridley as the move the chain guy with Bolden working to be his backup and also work on special teams to justify his spot. They have Woodhead as the 3rd down back with Vareen likely to usurp that from him if he continues to improve.

I really see these roles as mutually exclusive. I don't see any one back that is going to be part of all these roles.

I DO see 2-back alignments WITHOUT a true FB in there a lot and that could suggest they will roll some combination of the two out there and not tip what their plan is. But the caveat in that is they could easily put Hernandez in there in one of those RB spots when the real games start.

What have the Patriots or Belichick done that suggests to you that the bolded is obvious or straight forward? The fact that this thread is 5 pages long suggests that nothing is obvious or straight forward at this point.

I've been watching the games. It's obvious, to me.

 

[bostonfred]

55 yarder by the backup kicker. Three opportunites over 50 in this game