Carl Eller's Dead Liver
Footballguy
I'm on the Vereen side. He was getting daily standout awards in NE until the hammy. The Patriots know what they have in Vereen
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Shane Vereen vs. Stevan Ridley (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Carl Eller's Dead Liver
- Start date
Carl Eller's Dead Liver
Footballguy
All my statement says is they were impressed with him. That's all. What's wrong with that?
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
I thought Ridley was impressive every time I saw him run the ball. Explosive and great hands. I don't have a clue what Vereen brings.
No, your statement says "he was getting DAILY standout awards." What's wrong with that?All my statement says is they were impressed with him. That's all. What's wrong with that?
1-There is no such award
2-If there were such awards, by saying he is getting them on a "daily" basis, but hiding the fact that this "daily" basis was, AT MOST, 2 days is mis-leading.
That's what is wrong with that.
I completely agree with this characterization of the two backs...grinder and slasher. The problem is that they put Hernandez in the backfield as well which makes neither of them reliable starts. Having said all that, I would still stash Ridley if I could in some leagues, like TD heavy scoring leagues. You just never know what BB will do so its worth a stash. Just go into it not expecting much to come of it and be pleasantly surprised.
Carl Eller's Dead Liver
Footballguy
He got daily awards......stand out player for that day. Not awards every single day of camp....there's a difference. I can see how you interpreted it wrong though. Sorry, I'll word it differently.Vereen got several awards in camp for being the stand out player of the day. Is that okay with you?No, your statement says "he was getting DAILY standout awards." What's wrong with that?All my statement says is they were impressed with him. That's all. What's wrong with that?
1-There is no such award
2-If there were such awards, by saying he is getting them on a "daily" basis, but hiding the fact that this "daily" basis was, AT MOST, 2 days is mis-leading.
That's what is wrong with that.
It's less wrong, but it's still not true. You are still trying to give the impression that Vereen was impressive over a period of time, when HE ONLY MADE IT THROUGH ONE FULL PRACTICE. Also, to my knowledge, he never won any "awards" for being the stand out player in camp. I remember reading that he looked good, IN HIS ONE, SINGLE, FULL PRACTICE, but that doesn't mean he won any awards.He got daily awards......stand out player for that day. Not awards every single day of camp....there's a difference. I can see how you interpreted it wrong though. Sorry, I'll word it differently.Vereen got several awards in camp for being the stand out player of the day. Is that okay with you?No, your statement says "he was getting DAILY standout awards." What's wrong with that?All my statement says is they were impressed with him. That's all. What's wrong with that?
1-There is no such award
2-If there were such awards, by saying he is getting them on a "daily" basis, but hiding the fact that this "daily" basis was, AT MOST, 2 days is mis-leading.
That's what is wrong with that.
Even if he did win one award (I highly doubt he won any award for his 2nd practice which he couldn't even finish), it's one practice, at the beginning of training camp, with many players who didn't even make an NFL roster. Ridley had 4 games where he was the leading rusher for the Pats, against actual NFL-caliber players. Why should one good practice trump 4 actual games?
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IMO, this is mis-contruing facts to lead to a false conclusion.If BB was really so concerned with Ridley's fumbles, it would have made the most sense to just stick with BJGE in the backfield, since he NEVER fumbles. It would make more sense to conclude that giving Hernandez carries was merely a way of giving the D "different looks," and capitalizing on them being unprepared for those looks.The fact that Ridley didn't get many (any?) carries in the post-season would demonstrate, IMO, that BB doesn't have a whole lot of confidence in Ridley's ball security (or he didn't; whether that will hold true in 2012 is anyone's guess, at this point).
footballnerd
Footballguy
hoping everyone is sold on Ridley so Vereen can be had much later in redraft. 
ninerfanatic492000
Footballguy
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/25/patriots-may-look-to-shane-vereen-as-no-1-running-back/
Its like a new report comes out every 10min reporting just the opposite
Its like a new report comes out every 10min reporting just the opposite
jacobo_moses
Footballguy
It's less wrong, but it's still not true. You are still trying to give the impression that Vereen was impressive over a period of time, when HE ONLY MADE IT THROUGH ONE FULL PRACTICE. Also, to my knowledge, he never won any "awards" for being the stand out player in camp. I remember reading that he looked good, IN HIS ONE, SINGLE, FULL PRACTICE, but that doesn't mean he won any awards.He got daily awards......stand out player for that day. Not awards every single day of camp....there's a difference. I can see how you interpreted it wrong though. Sorry, I'll word it differently.Vereen got several awards in camp for being the stand out player of the day. Is that okay with you?No, your statement says "he was getting DAILY standout awards." What's wrong with that?All my statement says is they were impressed with him. That's all. What's wrong with that?
1-There is no such award
2-If there were such awards, by saying he is getting them on a "daily" basis, but hiding the fact that this "daily" basis was, AT MOST, 2 days is mis-leading.
That's what is wrong with that.
Even if he did win one award (I highly doubt he won any award for his 2nd practice which he couldn't even finish), it's one practice, at the beginning of training camp, with many players who didn't even make an NFL roster. Ridley had 4 games where he was the leading rusher for the Pats, against actual NFL-caliber players. Why should one good practice trump 4 actual games?
Why don't you read the thread?It's less wrong, but it's still not true. You are still trying to give the impression that Vereen was impressive over a period of time, when HE ONLY MADE IT THROUGH ONE FULL PRACTICE. Also, to my knowledge, he never won any "awards" for being the stand out player in camp. I remember reading that he looked good, IN HIS ONE, SINGLE, FULL PRACTICE, but that doesn't mean he won any awards.He got daily awards......stand out player for that day. Not awards every single day of camp....there's a difference. I can see how you interpreted it wrong though. Sorry, I'll word it differently.Vereen got several awards in camp for being the stand out player of the day. Is that okay with you?No, your statement says "he was getting DAILY standout awards." What's wrong with that?All my statement says is they were impressed with him. That's all. What's wrong with that?
1-There is no such award
2-If there were such awards, by saying he is getting them on a "daily" basis, but hiding the fact that this "daily" basis was, AT MOST, 2 days is mis-leading.
That's what is wrong with that.
Even if he did win one award (I highly doubt he won any award for his 2nd practice which he couldn't even finish), it's one practice, at the beginning of training camp, with many players who didn't even make an NFL roster. Ridley had 4 games where he was the leading rusher for the Pats, against actual NFL-caliber players. Why should one good practice trump 4 actual games?
Or at least read the series of posts that YOU responded to. The link is right there, in my very first post.
Couch Potato
Footballguy
Just to provide some additional perspective here are trade offers I've made in 3 different 12 team PPR leagues for Vereen recently, all of them rejected. These owners made no counter or wanted to discuss trading him. They are holding tight.
The first one I expected to be rejected, the other two I thought had a decent chance of acceptance.
Trade Offer Rejected:
Fighting Couch Potatoes gave up:
Blount, LeGarrette TBB RB
Breaston, Steve KCC WR
Year 2012 Draft Pick 3.07
Year 2012 Draft Pick 4.12
ABC gave up:
Vereen, Shane NEP RB
(I also had previously offered the owner Ridley for Vereen straight up and he rejected)
Trade Offer Rejected:
Fighting Couch Potatoes 2 gave up:
Jackson, Fred BUF RB
Thomas, Pierre NOS RB
Benn, Arrelious TBB WR
Year 2012 Draft Pick 2.10
DEF gave up:
Vereen, Shane NEP RB
Trade Offer Rejected:
Fighting Couch Potatoes 3 gave up:
Ivory, Christopher NOS RB
Williams, DeAngelo CAR RB
Gettis, David CAR WR
GHI gave up:
Vereen, Shane NEP RB
The first one I expected to be rejected, the other two I thought had a decent chance of acceptance.
Trade Offer Rejected:
Fighting Couch Potatoes gave up:
Blount, LeGarrette TBB RB
Breaston, Steve KCC WR
Year 2012 Draft Pick 3.07
Year 2012 Draft Pick 4.12
ABC gave up:
Vereen, Shane NEP RB
(I also had previously offered the owner Ridley for Vereen straight up and he rejected)
Trade Offer Rejected:
Fighting Couch Potatoes 2 gave up:
Jackson, Fred BUF RB
Thomas, Pierre NOS RB
Benn, Arrelious TBB WR
Year 2012 Draft Pick 2.10
DEF gave up:
Vereen, Shane NEP RB
Trade Offer Rejected:
Fighting Couch Potatoes 3 gave up:
Ivory, Christopher NOS RB
Williams, DeAngelo CAR RB
Gettis, David CAR WR
GHI gave up:
Vereen, Shane NEP RB
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jacobo_moses
Footballguy
Lets just leave it at this
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/25/patriots-may-look-to-shane-vereen-as-no-1-running-back/
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/25/patriots-may-look-to-shane-vereen-as-no-1-running-back/
Couch Potato
Footballguy
Already posted in post #63.
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What do you want to leave it at?
That one reporter is citing another reporter's article (which has NO source) that says the Patriots "hope" Vereen can find his space at the top of the depth chart ALONG WITH Ridley and Woodhead?Yeah, that's a REAL definitive answer to the question of who will be the RB to own in NE. 
johnadams
Footballguy
I think 22 people were obviously wrong.
mjr
Footballguy
I've never known BB to let a RB walk without them really having someone they're going to turn to, and that someone doesn't need to be the bellcow sort. Also isn't going to be someone they haven't seen enough of. So my guess is that its going to be Ridley and Woodhead. Vereen is just going to have to nudge his way in.
Bronx Bomber
Footballguy
From KKFL FWIW: http://www.kffl.com/gnews.php?id=789127
Patriots | Shane Vereen, Stevan Ridley expected to get most carries
New England Patriots RBs Shane Vereen and Stevan Ridley are expected to get a majority of the carries this season if they both stay healthy with RB Joseph Addai being an insurance policy in case they struggle.
2012-05-26 12:15:44 | Source: ESPNBoston.com - Mike Reiss
Patriots | Shane Vereen, Stevan Ridley expected to get most carries
New England Patriots RBs Shane Vereen and Stevan Ridley are expected to get a majority of the carries this season if they both stay healthy with RB Joseph Addai being an insurance policy in case they struggle.
2012-05-26 12:15:44 | Source: ESPNBoston.com - Mike Reiss
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
OWNED.BuckeyeChaos
Footballguy
Is it just me or were your 2nd two offers ridiculously overpaying? I can't fathom how the guy passed
Bronx Bomber
Footballguy
Right. I was about to make some offers using Vareen as a throw in. Im gonna have to rethink that. I had no clue he had this type of value.
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I would keep either over Fred Jackson.
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/6445/shane-vereen
he Boston Herald reports that second-year RB Shane Vereen has worked as the Patriots' first-team tailback during OTA practices open to the media.
Beat writer Jeff Howe concedes that he doesn't know whether it "means anything," and the Pats will still use a role-specific running game in 2012. Despite a lost rookie year due to injury woes, Vereen will get every opportunity to establish a big role while battling Stevan Ridley and Danny Woodhead for snaps. Howe doesn't believe Joseph Addai is a lock for a roster spot
he Boston Herald reports that second-year RB Shane Vereen has worked as the Patriots' first-team tailback during OTA practices open to the media.
Beat writer Jeff Howe concedes that he doesn't know whether it "means anything," and the Pats will still use a role-specific running game in 2012. Despite a lost rookie year due to injury woes, Vereen will get every opportunity to establish a big role while battling Stevan Ridley and Danny Woodhead for snaps. Howe doesn't believe Joseph Addai is a lock for a roster spot
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
NationalFootballPost @FootballPosthttps://twitter.com/#!/FootballPost#Patriots ex-2nd rd pick Shane Vereen is working as the offense's first-team RB during media-accessible portions of OTAs, per Boston Herald.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
This is a strange sentence. On the one hand he states that he doesn't know whether it "means anything" but in the next breath says the will still use a role specific running game in 2012. For a guy who can't decipher anything based on OTAs about depth chart, he seems pretty certain that they will stick with a committee approach come hell or high water. I'm not so sure they stick with a true committee, nor that they even had a committee last season. BJGE got that Lion's share of the carries. I tend to think Vereen is the best runners and receiver among the backs on the roster. If he is more productive than Woodhead on third downs, why wouldn't Belichick use him more? The big worry with Vereen is injuries. But that make Ridley a great handcuff. Both can be had well below market value right now. In an upside down draft strategy, they can be had in the later the draft. They are basically ranked between 30-40 among backs right now. Neither is in the Top 100 overall dynasty rankings on this site. So if Vereen takes this job, as I think he can, you are looking at a 8th round selection putting up numbers befitting a back in the low 20s or even teens.
Code:
No. Name: Age Pos G GS Att Yds TD Lng Y/A Y/G A/G Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng R/G Y/G YScm RRTD Fmb42 Ben Green-Ellis 25 RB 16 11 229 1008 13 33 4.4 63.0 14.3 12 85 7.1 0 16 0.8 5.3 1093 13 039 Danny Woodhead 25 wr 14 3 97 547 5 36 5.6 39.1 6.9 34 379 11.1 1 50 2.4 27.1 926 6 121 Fred Taylor 34 rb 7 0 43 155 0 24 3.6 22.1 6.1 2 6 3.0 0 7 0.3 0.9 161 0 012 Tom Brady*+ 33 QB 16 16 31 30 1 9 1.0 1.9 1.9 30 1 334 Sammy Morris 33 rb 16 0 20 56 0 9 2.8 3.5 1.3 7 77 11.0 0 22 0.4 4.8 133 0 18 Brian Hoyer 25 5 0 10 -8 0 1 -0.8 -1.6 2.0 -8 0 033 Kevin Faulk 34 rb 2 2 8 45 0 11 5.6 22.5 4.0 6 62 10.3 0 21 3.0 31.0 107 0 022 Thomas Clayton 26 1 0 6 17 0 5 2.8 17.0 6.0 17 0 019 Brandon Tate 23 KR/WR 16 10 5 62 0 22 12.4 3.9 0.3 24 432 18.0 3 65 1.5 27.0 494 3 185 Aar Hernandez 21 te 14 7 3 47 0 18 15.7 3.4 0.2 45 563 12.5 6 46 3.2 40.2 610 6 011 Julian Edelman 24 PR 15 3 2 14 0 13 7.0 0.9 0.1 7 86 12.3 0 40 0.5 5.7 100 0 183 Wes Welker* 29 WR 15 11 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 86 848 9.9 7 35 5.7 56.5 848 7 184 Deion Branch 31 wr 11 9 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 48 706 14.7 5 79 4.4 64.2 706 5 087 Rob Gronkowski 21 TE 16 11 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 42 546 13.0 10 28 2.6 34.1 546 10 181 Randy Moss 33 wr 4 3 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 9 139 15.4 3 35 2.3 34.8 139 3 082 Alge Crumpler 33 TE 16 10 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 6 52 8.7 2 27 0.4 3.3 52 2 017 Taylor Price 23 1 0 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 3 41 13.7 0 18 3.0 41.0 41 0 0 Team Total 26.7 16 454 1973 19 36 4.3 123.3 28.4 331 4022 12.2 37 79 20.7 251.4 5995 56 9 Opp Total 16 409 1728 10 4.2 108.0 25.6 388 4136 10.7 25 24.3 258.5 5864 35 20
gregjcross
Footballguy
Im a big Vereen believer but when he says he thinks it remains committee its based on BB's approach going back to his head coaching days in Cleveland in 1991/2. If Vereen was able to get 65% and put Woodhead on the bench while Ridley is a between tackles plunger it would make him a huge fantasy value. While I think he has the skills and maturity to do it, it would go against history of BB in a huge way.
Corey Dillon?
Heck, Antowaine Smith had two seasons of 280+ touches, and he was pedestrian at best IMO. I think if a guy distances himself a bit, he will get the most work. I will bet on Vereen to be the guy with the most *touches*.
DawnBTVS
Footballguy
One other thing to remember is that Josh McDaniels is returning as OC and has usually leaned on having a single RB carry the load (unless injuries struck). In 2009, Knowshon Moreno had 247 carries despite starting just 9 games. The backup, Correll Buckhalter, had 120 himself. Last year, Steven Jackson had 260 carries despite an ineffective passing attack.
Whomever wins the gig has a good chance, if they can stay healthy, to end up getting at least 220-230 carries on the year if not more. The "committee" approach has usually been a result of injuries forcing backups to start games or giving the starter maybe 18 carries and the backup 6-8 carries to kill the clock with a big lead.
Whomever wins the gig has a good chance, if they can stay healthy, to end up getting at least 220-230 carries on the year if not more. The "committee" approach has usually been a result of injuries forcing backups to start games or giving the starter maybe 18 carries and the backup 6-8 carries to kill the clock with a big lead.
N Zone
Footballguy
Great answer.
This isn't true.McDaniels was OC in NE in 06,07,08, HC in Den in 09 & 1st 12 games of 10, and OC in StL in 2011.
06-Dillon 199, Maroney 175
07-Maroney 185, Sammy Morris 85 (
08-Sammy Morris 156, K Faulk 83
09-Moreno 247, Buckhalter 120
10-Moreno 146, Buckhalter 21
11-SJax 260, C Williams 87
He's only had a single RB get over 250 carries in a season one time, and that was Steven Jackson, who is a much higher caliber RB than Ridley or Vereen (or Addai).
He's only ever had a single RB get over 200 carries in a season twice.
33% of the time doesn't mean he "has usually leaned on having a single RB to carry the load."
Agreed that NE seems to have easily defined types of RBs in recent years, but BB seems to regularly surprise with new developments on offense. A few years ago, in 2007, it was Randy Moss & Wes Welker shifting NE to an offense that supports high-scoring WRs, after years of solid but unspectacular WRs. And then last year, there was the TE explosion. It's hard for me to feel confident in what BB's offense will do down the road (other than score a lot of points somewhere). He might remain true to recent form at RB, but he might also re-define the position.
beto
Footballguy
I was the owner on 2. I guess it's the case of Vareen being "my guy". I overdrafted him last year. Thought he was going to rip it up and I still do. I just couldn't see giving him up for a 31 year old RB and Pierre Thomas.
beto
Footballguy
Draft good players in good offenses.No one thought that Patriot TEs would be anything, now they have 2 of the top 3 and have started a trend. When one guy is significantly more talented than the other (as I think is the case with Vereen/Ridley), I think BB will give him a 2:1 split or thereabouts. And the price for both is still very cheap
DawnBTVS
Footballguy
Just going by total carries is flawed as most of those seasons had RBs injured for multiple games (and in some cases, multiple RBs were injured in a single season). Any fan of the Patriots will tell you that most of the RBBC situations have been because guys go down due to injuries and miss a game here and there.2005 [18th in Carries]: Corey Dillon played 12 games, Kevin Faulk played 8 games.
2006 [6th in Carries]: Corey Dillon started 13 games but was 32 years old and split time with Laurence Maroney, who was being groomed as the feature back of the future.
2007 [9th in Carries]: Laurence Maroney played 13 games, Sammy Morris played 6 games, and Kevin Faulk played 16 games.
2008 [4th in Carries]: Sammy Morris played 13 games, LaMont Jordan played 8 games, and BJGE played 9 games.
2009 [14th in Carries]: Knowshon Moreno played 16 games and Correll Buckhalter played 14 games.
2011 [23rd in Carries]: Steven Jackson plays 15 games and gets 260 carries.
McDaniels has shown a reliance on a power running game and a willingness to get a bell cow RB the ball when the guy is healthy. He basically had that in two situations, 2009 and 2011. The other seasons all involved committee attacks out of age (2006 with Dillon) or injury factors.
220-230 carries over a 16 game season comes out to just 13-14 carries per game, which is quite doable for Vereen or Ridley if either lands the starting RB job. More often than not, his teams finish in the Top 15 in total team carries. McDaniels had 3 straight seasons in which his teams finished inside the Top 10 in team carries. He will run the ball but if injuries strike, McDaniels has shown he can effectively distribute carries around as well.
So using total carries is flawed, but using selective logic/stats isn't?'DawnBTVS said:
You're talking about ignoring 2/3 of the seasons when McDaniels was OC/HC, because injuries forced him to use multiple backs. You suggest that in only two season has he had a "healthy" RB, and he "rode" that back. The years you are using are 2009 & 2011.However, in 2009, the RB that McDaniels "rode," Knowshon Moreno only started 9 games, despite playing in all 16. That doesn't sound like McDaniels "rode" him. In fact, if Buckhalter hadn't been hurt himself for part of that season, Moreno probably wouldn't have seen 200+ carries. It would have been much closer to a 50/50 split.
And in 2011, you're talking about Steven Jackson. He is not an unproven RB like Vereen or Ridley, nor is he a aging vet like Addai. He is the offense in StL, and McDaniels couldn't have taken significant carries away from him if he had wanted to.
The fact is that McDaniels has not track record of wanting to have one "lead back." The only season he has done so was when he had a stud RB. He doesn't have that in NE, so to suggest that he wants to ride one of these backs is either disingenuous or mis-informed.
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Sabertooth
Footballguy
Knowshon Moreno is terrible. I could see this either way. But Knowshon has no business in the NFL. I believe if Vereen is the best runner, he will get the most runs. If he's the best receiver, he gets the most receptions. If he isn't, he won't. I believe he is.
Agreed, but I see no evidence of a trend of McDaniels "leaning on" 1 RB. I see it being a RBBC with Vereen (health permitting) getting the majority of touches (although not a 70/30 split, probably closer to 60/40).
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I have a different option. I happen to think that they are seeing what they have in Vereen and getting him reps because he was banged up early and often last year. I am not sure there is anything to conclude at this point. I still see this as a RBBC situation and/or guys that will have defined situational roles. That could change, but at this point I don't see a bell cow back as of yet.
Bronx Bomber
Footballguy
Personally, Id be thrilled if it was a RBBC as long as its 95% Vareen/Ridley combo. Its the thought of 4 headed RBBC with Addai and Woodhead mixed in significantly that scares me. I think most if us realize that they are seeing what they have in Vareen. But that's still exciting because the could just as easily plugged Ridley in to give him the reps thinking that he is already their RB1.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
No, me neither. Here is something to chew on though. It has often been said that if you have two or three running backs, you really have none. If Vereen (56th pick in 2011), just for the sake of argument, turned out to be Lesean McCoy 2.0 (53rd in 2009), Ben Tate 2.0 (58th in 2010), or Ray Rice 2.0 (55th in 2008), doesn't it stand to reason that he might get at least as many carries as BJGE? And perhaps more? Regardless of coaching history and what not. Good players get on the field. Heck, the Pats used to shuffle wideouts all over the place, now Welker gets a bajillion targets. Just two years ago the top TE for the Pats was Ben Watson with a whopping 29 catches. He and the number two combined for 43 catches. Last year, the top 2 grabbed 169 balls.
swirvenirvin
Footballguy
Anything new on these two?
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I don't remember what was discussed previsouly, but as far as I can make it,
Addai (if he makes the final roster cut) will be used primarily as a blocker.
Woodhead would be used as a change of pace guy on some passing situations and more gadget type plays.
Vereen saw the lion's share of work in OTAs practicing with the first team.
Ridley got some reps with the first team at OTAs but apparently not as many as Vereen did.
Beyond that, it's anyone's guess what the Pats will do in the regular season. I personally think they go pedal to the metal passing the football, but again that's more of a hunch than anything else.
Addai (if he makes the final roster cut) will be used primarily as a blocker.
Woodhead would be used as a change of pace guy on some passing situations and more gadget type plays.
Vereen saw the lion's share of work in OTAs practicing with the first team.
Ridley got some reps with the first team at OTAs but apparently not as many as Vereen did.
Beyond that, it's anyone's guess what the Pats will do in the regular season. I personally think they go pedal to the metal passing the football, but again that's more of a hunch than anything else.
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