Moss says he's Greatest WR Ever (1 Viewer)

[GregR]

Success in the NFL is dependent upon physical ability, health, supporting cast, system and work ethic. Moss could have been the greatest; he had the physical tools and was relatively durable. Overall, I don't think his "situation" was as good as Rice's. SF was an offensive juggernaut with a line of high quality QBs. Moss lacked this in Oakland and the latter Viking years. The greatest difference between the pair is work ethic, a night and day difference.My guess is that Randy's natural ability didn't force him to develop strong work habits and that ganja played a big part in his attitude and him not reaching his full potential.

Whenever I see "work ethic" or "work habits" cited with respect to Moss, what people really seem to mean is, he was "selfish and unlikable". When I think of work ethic, I think of a Jamarcus Russell (off the top of my head). We're not really talking about some guy who had all the physical tools but never applied himself.It's impossible to quantify statistically but I wonder how much "better" Moss would have been if he hadn't quit on routes (or the Raiders) or phoned in plays where he wasn't the primary target? At the end of the day, I'm guessing his stat lines wouldn't look that much different.When it comes to "work ethic", Moss brings one set of thoughts to mind and Rice brings another but where the rubber hits the road, I'm not really sure what difference that makes...

I think what people mean by his work ethic is what you talked about in your second paragraph, not in your first. Taking plays off, not running out his routes when he doesn't think he'll get the ball, etc. Rice was a guy who perfected his route running, so that every route looked identical until the point he made his cut. Moss didn't even run his routes out fully.Just to get the word from the horse's mouth, here was a news blurb from his days on the Patriots:

As it turned out, Patriots quarterback Tom Brady was one of the first to notice his decline last summer. A league source said Brady was so concerned about Moss' lagging work ethic that he discussed it with Patriots head coach Bill Belichick in training camp. When Belichick decided that Moss would be fine, Brady became even more agitated after Moss dogged it on a couple routes during an early-season win over Miami.

I think that's what people mean, far more so than it being about him being unlikable.

 

[mad sweeney]

Success in the NFL is dependent upon physical ability, health, supporting cast, system and work ethic. Moss could have been the greatest; he had the physical tools and was relatively durable. Overall, I don't think his "situation" was as good as Rice's. SF was an offensive juggernaut with a line of high quality QBs. Moss lacked this in Oakland and the latter Viking years. The greatest difference between the pair is work ethic, a night and day difference.My guess is that Randy's natural ability didn't force him to develop strong work habits and that ganja played a big part in his attitude and him not reaching his full potential.

Whenever I see "work ethic" or "work habits" cited with respect to Moss, what people really seem to mean is, he was "selfish and unlikable". When I think of work ethic, I think of a Jamarcus Russell (off the top of my head). We're not really talking about some guy who had all the physical tools but never applied himself.It's impossible to quantify statistically but I wonder how much "better" Moss would have been if he hadn't quit on routes (or the Raiders) or phoned in plays where he wasn't the primary target? At the end of the day, I'm guessing his stat lines wouldn't look that much different.When it comes to "work ethic", Moss brings one set of thoughts to mind and Rice brings another but where the rubber hits the road, I'm not really sure what difference that makes...

The effect on the rest of the team and the results of his extra work. How many other receivers would've had more yards if Randy blocked more, or drew the coverage on his side out of the way by actually trying when the ball came his way. Or inspired/led his team by example and made the players around him better. His stat line may not change much, but the stat line of the team and the other players may have.

 

[scrumptrulescent]

Randy is the tin man from the wizard of oz.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

It's impossible to quantify statistically but I wonder how much "better" Moss would have been if he hadn't quit on routes (or the Raiders) or phoned in plays where he wasn't the primary target? At the end of the day, I'm guessing his stat lines wouldn't look that much different.

I'm guessing that he would have led the league in receiving at least once. Think about it; if hustling on every play got him an average of one additional reception every two games, you're looking at seasons that go from 77/1437/15 to 85/1565/16. He would have added, just counting his full seasons, something like 80 receptions and 1250 yards to his career totals (putting him well above TO). And then if he hadn't pouted his way out of Minnesota (twice), Oakland, New England, and Tennessee, he could easily have had another 2000 yards on top of that, and maybe 20 TDs, which would put him in a position to be thinking about Rice's TD record. In other words, he might have put himself in the discussion for the greatest WR of all time.But, he did take plays off and he did quit on teams and therefore he fell short of what he could have accomplished, and of what Rice accomplished.

Very and analysis.

 

[donkshow]

[No message]

 

[Eminence]

Jerry Rice Super Bowl stats:

1988: 11 / 215 / 1TD

1989: 7 / 148 / 3TD

1994: 10 / 149 / 3TD

2002: 5 / 77 / 1TD

Randy Moss Super Bowl stats:

2007: 5 / 62 / 1TD

2013: 2 / 41 / 0TD

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Jerry Rice Super Bowl stats:

1988: 11 / 215 / 1TD

1989: 7 / 148 / 3TD

1994: 10 / 149 / 3TD

2002: 5 / 77 / 1TD

Randy Moss Super Bowl stats:

2007: 5 / 62 / 1TD

2013: 2 / 41 / 1TD

 

[Eminence]

Jerry Rice Super Bowl stats:

1988: 11 / 215 / 1TD

1989: 7 / 148 / 3TD

1994: 10 / 149 / 3TD

2002: 5 / 77 / 1TD

Randy Moss Super Bowl stats:

2007: 5 / 62 / 1TD

2013: 2 / 41 / 1TD

Copy and Paste! You've made me look like a fool for the LAST TIME.*slits wrists*

 

[TobiasFunke]

Jerry Rice Super Bowl stats:

1988: 11 / 215 / 1TD

1989: 7 / 148 / 3TD

1994: 10 / 149 / 3TD

2002: 5 / 77 / 1TD

Randy Moss Super Bowl stats:

2007: 5 / 62 / 1TD

2013: 2 / 41 / 1TD

So I take it you guys agree that Timmy Smith is the greatest RB in NFL history?Here's a good read for those that are down on Moss. Not saying he's better or worse than Rice or anyone else. But I think the criticism of his personality and effort in this thread is mostly coming from people who have no idea what the #### they're talking about and formed judgment based on one clip of him taking a play off and one stoned incident. Among the many things mentioned there that nobody ever talks about: his exceptional blocking, his willingness to mentor young receivers, and his superhuman ability to stay healthy/play through injury. He just chooses to live a private life instead of making everything he does a media spectacle.

 

[sho nuff]

Jerry Rice Super Bowl stats:

1988: 11 / 215 / 1TD

1989: 7 / 148 / 3TD

1994: 10 / 149 / 3TD

2002: 5 / 77 / 1TD

Randy Moss Super Bowl stats:

2007: 5 / 62 / 1TD

2013: 2 / 41 / 1TD

So I take it you guys agree that Timmy Smith is the greatest RB in NFL history?Here's a good read for those that are down on Moss. Not saying he's better or worse than Rice or anyone else. But I think the criticism of his personality and effort in this thread is mostly coming from people who have no idea what the #### they're talking about and formed judgment based on one clip of him taking a play off and one stoned incident. Among the many things mentioned there that nobody ever talks about: his exceptional blocking, his willingness to mentor young receivers, and his superhuman ability to stay healthy/play through injury. He just chooses to live a private life instead of making everything he does a media spectacle.

Its from that clip of him saying he plays when he wants.Its from many clips showing him taking plays off (not just one clip of one play).

 

[TobiasFunke]

Jerry Rice Super Bowl stats:

1988: 11 / 215 / 1TD

1989: 7 / 148 / 3TD

1994: 10 / 149 / 3TD

2002: 5 / 77 / 1TD

Randy Moss Super Bowl stats:

2007: 5 / 62 / 1TD

2013: 2 / 41 / 1TD

So I take it you guys agree that Timmy Smith is the greatest RB in NFL history?Here's a good read for those that are down on Moss. Not saying he's better or worse than Rice or anyone else. But I think the criticism of his personality and effort in this thread is mostly coming from people who have no idea what the #### they're talking about and formed judgment based on one clip of him taking a play off and one stoned incident. Among the many things mentioned there that nobody ever talks about: his exceptional blocking, his willingness to mentor young receivers, and his superhuman ability to stay healthy/play through injury. He just chooses to live a private life instead of making everything he does a media spectacle.

Its from that clip of him saying he plays when he wants.Its from many clips showing him taking plays off (not just one clip of one play).

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.

Yeah he's a little quirky and had some moments of bad judgment (none as bad as appearing on Dancing With the Stars though ) But you don't reach his performance level without working incredibly hard on technique and conditioning and in the film room. I know that doesn't fit the easy "thug" and "underachiever" narratives everyone bought into, but it's the truth.

 

[CalBear]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.

How about the play, oh, two days ago in the Super Bowl, where he jogged through his crossing route and didn't jump for the ball, leading directly to Kaepernick's interception? That kind of thing happens all the time with Moss.

 

[Ghost Rider]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.

Just to get the word from the horse's mouth, here was a news blurb from his days on the Patriots:

As it turned out, Patriots quarterback Tom Brady was one of the first to notice his decline last summer. A league source said Brady was so concerned about Moss' lagging work ethic that he discussed it with Patriots head coach Bill Belichick in training camp. When Belichick decided that Moss would be fine, Brady became even more agitated after Moss dogged it on a couple routes during an early-season win over Miami.

 

[tdmills]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.

How about the play, oh, two days ago in the Super Bowl, where he jogged through his crossing route and didn't jump for the ball, leading directly to Kaepernick's interception? That kind of thing happens all the time with Moss.

You mean this play?Looks like Kaep overthrows him to me.

 

[TobiasFunke]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.

How about the play, oh, two days ago in the Super Bowl, where he jogged through his crossing route and didn't jump for the ball, leading directly to Kaepernick's interception? That kind of thing happens all the time with Moss.

Of all people I wouldn't expect you to fall for the lazy pre-written narrative. Disappointing. I guess homerism trumps rationality, and in this case it's apparently impossible to worship Rice without also denigrating Moss. What a shame.Anyone with a shred of objectivity knows that pick was on Kaepernick.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.

Just to get the word from the horse's mouth, here was a news blurb from his days on the Patriots:

As it turned out, Patriots quarterback Tom Brady was one of the first to notice his decline last summer. A league source said Brady was so concerned about Moss' lagging work ethic that he discussed it with Patriots head coach Bill Belichick in training camp. When Belichick decided that Moss would be fine, Brady became even more agitated after Moss dogged it on a couple routes during an early-season win over Miami.

Hmmmmmm Who to believe...Tom Brady or Tobias....my own eyes or Tobias....Randy's own words or Tobias....this is tough.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Anyone with a shred of objectivity knows that pick was on Kaepernick.

It was an overthrow, yes, but Moss made ZERO effort to go up and catch the ball or even knock it down. Pathetic effort. Was the throw to high for Moss to even get a hand on it? Maybe, maybe not, but we'll never know since Moss gave up on the play, just like he has given up on so many other plays over the years.

 

[CalBear]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.

How about the play, oh, two days ago in the Super Bowl, where he jogged through his crossing route and didn't jump for the ball, leading directly to Kaepernick's interception? That kind of thing happens all the time with Moss.

You mean this play?Looks like Kaep overthrows him to me.

The throw was definitely high but Moss could have gotten in position to at least get a hand on it if he'd kept running and jumped. You can see it on the angle from behind the line that Moss pulls up on his route.

 

[CalBear]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.

How about the play, oh, two days ago in the Super Bowl, where he jogged through his crossing route and didn't jump for the ball, leading directly to Kaepernick's interception? That kind of thing happens all the time with Moss.

Of all people I wouldn't expect you to fall for the lazy pre-written narrative. Disappointing. I guess homerism trumps rationality, and in this case it's apparently impossible to worship Rice without also denigrating Moss. What a shame.Anyone with a shred of objectivity knows that pick was on Kaepernick.

I'm not a Niner homer; I actually think Niner fans are the second-most obnoxious in the league (behind New England, of course). And it's not pre-written narrative. After the interception, I said "$5 says that happened because Moss gave up on the route." No one took the bet. On the replay it was obvious that's exactly what happened.

 

[TobiasFunke]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.

How about the play, oh, two days ago in the Super Bowl, where he jogged through his crossing route and didn't jump for the ball, leading directly to Kaepernick's interception? That kind of thing happens all the time with Moss.

Of all people I wouldn't expect you to fall for the lazy pre-written narrative. Disappointing. I guess homerism trumps rationality, and in this case it's apparently impossible to worship Rice without also denigrating Moss. What a shame.Anyone with a shred of objectivity knows that pick was on Kaepernick.

I'm not a Niner homer; I actually think Niner fans are the second-most obnoxious in the league (behind New England, of course). And it's not pre-written narrative. After the interception, I said "$5 says that happened because Moss gave up on the route." No one took the bet. On the replay it was obvious that's exactly what happened.

Oh dear God. The throw wasn't even close. People don't pursue and jump for balls that are 20 feet beyond their reach. Not Moss, not Rice, not anyone. Nor does anyone half-### it in the Super Bowl. My immediate reaction was "dear God what an atrocious throw." I'd say my first reaction was a lot closer to the truth than yours.This witchhunt is actually pretty good evidence that people let the narrative define their perception rather than vice versa.

I never said he was the perfect teammate or that he played 100% on every play. Clearly he wasn't and he didn't- most notably at the end of his tenure in Oakland, and perhaps in his third season in New England too.

I'm saying- as the article said- that more often than not he was a great teammate and a hard worker and a quality human being. But I guess it's easier to let the simple narrative define your perceptions than to accept that football players, like everyone else, are all complicated.

 

[sho nuff]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.Yeah he's a little quirky and had some moments of bad judgment (none as bad as appearing on Dancing With the Stars though ) But you don't reach his performance level without working incredibly hard on technique and conditioning and in the film room. I know that doesn't fit the easy "thug" and "underachiever" narratives everyone bought into, but it's the truth.

You keep thinking that.Would not say he is a thug...but underachiever fits perfectly given the talent and physical attributes and his total output.

 

[sho nuff]

Keep blaming it on this "narrative" rather than the man who dogged it many times and it was noticed by coaches, writers, fans, and teammates.

 

[Biabreakable]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.

How about the play, oh, two days ago in the Super Bowl, where he jogged through his crossing route and didn't jump for the ball, leading directly to Kaepernick's interception? That kind of thing happens all the time with Moss.

You mean this play?Looks like Kaep overthrows him to me.

The throw was definitely high but Moss could have gotten in position to at least get a hand on it if he'd kept running and jumped. You can see it on the angle from behind the line that Moss pulls up on his route.

Yeah and you are just seeing what you want to see on that play. Even Phil Simms says during that play that the pass was overthrown and should have been thrown with touch in front of Moss based on the route and coverage. Moss is running a drag route across. Going up for that high ball likely would have caused a tip drill if Moss could even get a piece of it and just as much chance for it to be intercepted.

 

[TobiasFunke]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.Yeah he's a little quirky and had some moments of bad judgment (none as bad as appearing on Dancing With the Stars though ) But you don't reach his performance level without working incredibly hard on technique and conditioning and in the film room. I know that doesn't fit the easy "thug" and "underachiever" narratives everyone bought into, but it's the truth.

You keep thinking that.Would not say he is a thug...but underachiever fits perfectly given the talent and physical attributes and his total output.

It's just impossible to say a human being "underachieved" if they had Moss's career. Sure, if someone came along that ran a 3.6 40 and had a nine foot wingspan and could bench 600 lbs and was the valedictorian at Harvard you might say they underachieved. But that wasn't Moss. He was incredibly talented, but we've seen talent almost equal to or even equal to his before he arrived, and certainly we've seen it since. You can't loaf your way to that kind of career. You just can't.I see you don't understand the "narrative" argument. The idea is that once the story is formed people look for it and write about it and ignore evidence to the contrary, so the perception grows and becomes the "truth" supported by "evidence." It's something present across all sports and sportswriting because it's simple and it requires little effort or subtlety and because people understand it. This is just one of hundreds of examples. Sure Moss has his faults, but he has a LOT of positive attributes too. Did you even read the column I linked?

 

[sho nuff]

I understand that you want to make excuses for what maulitple people (including players, ex-players, coaches, fans, writers...and son on) have actually seen and witnessed because you found some article you liked.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I understand that you want to make excuses for what maulitple people (including players, ex-players, coaches, fans, writers...and son on) have actually seen and witnessed because you found some article you liked.

Exactly. Like I said, you don't understand the argument. That's OK. You've been sold overly simplified sports narratives for your entire life (Jeter is clutch! LeBron is a choker! Moss is lazy!). It's hard to break the cycle.

 

[cstu]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.Yeah he's a little quirky and had some moments of bad judgment (none as bad as appearing on Dancing With the Stars though ) But you don't reach his performance level without working incredibly hard on technique and conditioning and in the film room. I know that doesn't fit the easy "thug" and "underachiever" narratives everyone bought into, but it's the truth.

You keep thinking that.Would not say he is a thug...but underachiever fits perfectly given the talent and physical attributes and his total output.

IMO, Moss relied almost entirely on his natural ability. Of course he had to work out and show up for practice, but as far as having a dedication to the game and a desire to become the best he could be, no way. Anyone who followed his career closely could see this. By the time he was 27, when most WR's are hitting their prime, Moss was already heading downhill. Why else would the Vikings give up a 27yo HOF-bound WR for just a 1st round pick? Moss had no work ethic in Oakland, but was still able to get 1000 yards purely on talent. He was re-energized for a season in NE but after that he was back to his old ways. If he had half the dedication of Terrell Owens he'd still be a Pro Bowl receiver today.

 

[sho nuff]

And yes...I read the article and laughed that any thoughts of him being a thug are racist.#6 claiming his talent is unparalleled is pretty funny given the talent at that position in the league right now (mainly looking at Megatron)The article that uses one point to try and bring negatives...yet passes them off as nothing (as you are trying to do).Laughable that you think its some piece of important evidence that the rest of us are all just seeing Moss wrong...especially in comparison to a guy like Rice.

 

[sho nuff]

I understand that you want to make excuses for what maulitple people (including players, ex-players, coaches, fans, writers...and son on) have actually seen and witnessed because you found some article you liked.

Exactly. Like I said, you don't understand the argument. That's OK. You've been sold overly simplified sports narratives for your entire life (Jeter is clutch! LeBron is a choker! Moss is lazy!). It's hard to break the cycle.

 

[sho nuff]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.Yeah he's a little quirky and had some moments of bad judgment (none as bad as appearing on Dancing With the Stars though ) But you don't reach his performance level without working incredibly hard on technique and conditioning and in the film room. I know that doesn't fit the easy "thug" and "underachiever" narratives everyone bought into, but it's the truth.

You keep thinking that.Would not say he is a thug...but underachiever fits perfectly given the talent and physical attributes and his total output.

IMO, Moss relied almost entirely on his natural ability. Of course he had to work out and show up for practice, but as far as having a dedication to the game and a desire to become the best he could be, no way. Anyone who followed his career closely could see this. By the time he was 27, when most WR's are hitting their prime, Moss was already heading downhill. Why else would the Vikings give up a 27yo HOF-bound WR for just a 1st round pick? Moss had no work ethic in Oakland, but was still able to get 1000 yards purely on talent. He was re-energized for a season in NE but after that he was back to his old ways. If he had half the dedication of Terrell Owens he'd still be a Pro Bowl receiver today.

Careful...Tobias might cry and claim you are just a sheep following the narrative.

 

[cstu]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.

Yeah he's a little quirky and had some moments of bad judgment (none as bad as appearing on Dancing With the Stars though ) But you don't reach his performance level without working incredibly hard on technique and conditioning and in the film room. I know that doesn't fit the easy "thug" and "underachiever" narratives everyone bought into, but it's the truth.

You keep thinking that.Would not say he is a thug...but underachiever fits perfectly given the talent and physical attributes and his total output.

It's just impossible to say a human being "underachieved" if they had Moss's career. Sure, if someone came along that ran a 3.6 40 and had a nine foot wingspan and could bench 600 lbs and was the valedictorian at Harvard you might say they underachieved. But that wasn't Moss. He was incredibly talented, but we've seen talent almost equal to or even equal to his before he arrived, and certainly we've seen it since. You can't loaf your way to that kind of career. You just can't.I see you don't understand the "narrative" argument. The idea is that once the story is formed people look for it and write about it and ignore evidence to the contrary, so the perception grows and becomes the "truth" supported by "evidence." It's something present across all sports and sportswriting because it's simple and it requires little effort or subtlety and because people understand it. This is just one of hundreds of examples. Sure Moss has his faults, but he has a LOT of positive attributes too. Did you even read the column I linked?

We have more guys like him today, but in his prime (98-03) there was no one physically like him. The next most productive WR's during that time were Harrison (a tactician) and Owens (an overachiever). He blew everyone else away.

 

[TobiasFunke]

And yes...I read the article and laughed that any thoughts of him being a thug are racist.#6 claiming his talent is unparalleled is pretty funny given the talent at that position in the league right now (mainly looking at Megatron)The article that uses one point to try and bring negatives...yet passes them off as nothing (as you are trying to do).Laughable that you think its some piece of important evidence that the rest of us are all just seeing Moss wrong...especially in comparison to a guy like Rice.

It's not evidence of anything. It's an argument about how a player- Moss in particular here, although it applies to almost any athlete- is often more complicated than the superficial narratives that fans and the media create for them, an argument that you clearly don't grasp. And I haven't even mentioned Rice since some time last week except for the Dancing With the Stars crack.

 

[sho nuff]

And yes...I read the article and laughed that any thoughts of him being a thug are racist.#6 claiming his talent is unparalleled is pretty funny given the talent at that position in the league right now (mainly looking at Megatron)The article that uses one point to try and bring negatives...yet passes them off as nothing (as you are trying to do).Laughable that you think its some piece of important evidence that the rest of us are all just seeing Moss wrong...especially in comparison to a guy like Rice.

It's not evidence of anything. It's an argument about how a player- Moss in particular here, although it applies to almost any athlete- is often more complicated than the superficial narratives that fans and the media create for them, an argument that you clearly don't grasp. And I haven't even mentioned Rice since some time last week except for the Dancing With the Stars crack.

And its an argument full of holes that downplays and almost denies the negatives.Most here have not denied the positives of what he did and has as far as football.His "country" crap is meaningless in this conversation...as was much of that article.But you can keep your little crutch that its just some superficial narrative that was created by fans and media (ignoring coaches and teammates who have said the exact same things about the guy).I grasp your argument...I just laugh at how awful it is.As for Rice...well, this thread is basically about comparing the two...so not mentioning him is pretty funny.

 

[TobiasFunke]

A narrative was created, so people watching film went looking for it. I'm sure you can find clips of every NFL player "taking plays off" when the action goes to the other side of the field. It's just that with Moss people were motivated to hunt for them.Yeah he's a little quirky and had some moments of bad judgment (none as bad as appearing on Dancing With the Stars though ) But you don't reach his performance level without working incredibly hard on technique and conditioning and in the film room. I know that doesn't fit the easy "thug" and "underachiever" narratives everyone bought into, but it's the truth.

You keep thinking that.Would not say he is a thug...but underachiever fits perfectly given the talent and physical attributes and his total output.

IMO, Moss relied almost entirely on his natural ability. Of course he had to work out and show up for practice, but as far as having a dedication to the game and a desire to become the best he could be, no way. Anyone who followed his career closely could see this. By the time he was 27, when most WR's are hitting their prime, Moss was already heading downhill. Why else would the Vikings give up a 27yo HOF-bound WR for just a 1st round pick? Moss had no work ethic in Oakland, but was still able to get 1000 yards purely on talent. He was re-energized for a season in NE but after that he was back to his old ways. If he had half the dedication of Terrell Owens he'd still be a Pro Bowl receiver today.

Careful...Tobias might cry and claim you are just a sheep following the narrative.

I see you've resorted to attacking the poster. Pretty standard move when an argument is lost. Guess my work is done here!

 

[sho nuff]

Coming from the guy who has been claiming I just don't understand and basically been calling me and others sheep for following the narrative?Yeah...ok.And anyone claiming a win or loss on an argument always makes for good times.

 

[tdmills]

Coming from the guy who has been claiming I just don't understand and basically been calling me and others sheep for following the narrative?Yeah...ok.And anyone claiming a win or loss on an argument always makes for good times.

Coming from the guy that ruins more threads than anyone else in the SP. Look in the mirror.

 

[FattyVM]

IMHO, I'd take Rice number one of all time (and will say, one of the easiest arguments to back as the number one at his position in football). Then if I had to choose i'd take Owens, Harrison, Carter, Brown over him. In my eyes, he should be looked at in the top 10, top 5 is harder, and definitely not number one. I'm assuming in a few years looking back, I'll even put Calvin, and Fitzgerald in there too.Don't get me wrong, he had the physical talent, but... he never actually consistently applied himself.

 

[sho nuff]

Coming from the guy who has been claiming I just don't understand and basically been calling me and others sheep for following the narrative?Yeah...ok.And anyone claiming a win or loss on an argument always makes for good times.

Coming from the guy that ruins more threads than anyone else in the SP. Look in the mirror.

Thanks for your great reply that is on topic.Yeah...its never things like this that ruins threads...its people actually talking about the topic that do it.Grow up.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Coming from the guy who has been claiming I just don't understand and basically been calling me and others sheep for following the narrative?Yeah...ok.And anyone claiming a win or loss on an argument always makes for good times.

I didn't call you sheep, but fair point about casting stones.But you do keep making the same mistakes about the narrative argument. You're claiming you're not just following the narrative, but then you offer up (without links) anecdotes about him quitting on routes and his teammates and coaches complaining about it. The whole point is that the evidence of him quitting on routes or giving less effort is partially- maybe even mostly- a function of people wanting to confirm the narrative. I'm sure there's some truth to it, but there's also teammates who love and respect him, coaches who've loved him (Belichek first sought him out and then even defending him when Brady criticized), quotes indicating that he really is passionate about the game along with discussions of his work ethic, etc. But nobody wants to read about that. I'm betting this is the first anyone here has even heard of those reports from his 49er teammates. Instead, everyone wants to pick through the film to find evidence of him letting up on plays (even though he's been an excellent blocker in his career) and find and point to the negative quotes while ignoring the positive ones like the ones from Belicheck in that last link.

 

[sho nuff]

Coming from the guy who has been claiming I just don't understand and basically been calling me and others sheep for following the narrative?Yeah...ok.And anyone claiming a win or loss on an argument always makes for good times.

I didn't call you sheep, but fair point about casting stones.But you do keep making the same mistakes about the narrative argument. You're claiming you're not just following the narrative, but then you offer up (without links) anecdotes about him quitting on routes and his teammates and coaches complaining about it. The whole point is that the evidence of him quitting on routes or giving less effort is partially- maybe even mostly- a function of people wanting to confirm the narrative. I'm sure there's some truth to it, but there's also teammates who love and respect him, coaches who've loved him (Belichek first sought him out and then even defending him when Brady criticized), quotes indicating that he really is passionate about the game along with discussions of his work ethic, etc. But nobody wants to read about that. I'm betting this is the first anyone here has even heard of those reports from his 49er teammates. Instead, everyone wants to pick through the film to find evidence of him letting up on plays (even though he's been an excellent blocker in his career) and find and point to the negative quotes while ignoring the positive ones like the ones from Belicheck in that last link.

Where did I write quitting routes.People have already posted the Brady link and quote...and do I need to bring links to things that are pretty much well known at this point that others have said about him? Its not like its breaking news.You do realize a guy can give up on plays and still be a good blocker right?Keep up that effort though.Look, there is no problem with him being #2 behind Rice (who both could be passed by Megatron...though, Calvin will have the trends of the league that will hurt how he is viewed given its more of a passing league now and Detroit throws the ball a ton).Just find it funny how much you want to defend what are completely legit criticisms about Moss and his game.

 

[massraider]

I see you've resorted to attacking the poster. Pretty standard move when an argument is lost. Guess my work is done here!

Hey. I watched every game of Moss' Raider and Patriot career. I didn't imagine what I saw. Make as many condescending, patronizing comments as you like. He put in effort when he felt like it. Other players, with less talent, put in more effort in worse situations. Moss obviously worked hard to get where he was. It also came a lot easier to him than almost any other WR ever, he has physical gifts that are singular. EVERY player in the NFL worked hard to get there. You are grading on a different scale. And on the NFL scale, he's a fair weather, selfish scumbag.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Coming from the guy who has been claiming I just don't understand and basically been calling me and others sheep for following the narrative?Yeah...ok.And anyone claiming a win or loss on an argument always makes for good times.

I didn't call you sheep, but fair point about casting stones.But you do keep making the same mistakes about the narrative argument. You're claiming you're not just following the narrative, but then you offer up (without links) anecdotes about him quitting on routes and his teammates and coaches complaining about it. The whole point is that the evidence of him quitting on routes or giving less effort is partially- maybe even mostly- a function of people wanting to confirm the narrative. I'm sure there's some truth to it, but there's also teammates who love and respect him, coaches who've loved him (Belichek first sought him out and then even defending him when Brady criticized), quotes indicating that he really is passionate about the game along with discussions of his work ethic, etc. But nobody wants to read about that. I'm betting this is the first anyone here has even heard of those reports from his 49er teammates. Instead, everyone wants to pick through the film to find evidence of him letting up on plays (even though he's been an excellent blocker in his career) and find and point to the negative quotes while ignoring the positive ones like the ones from Belicheck in that last link.

Where did I write quitting routes.People have already posted the Brady link and quote...and do I need to bring links to things that are pretty much well known at this point that others have said about him? Its not like its breaking news.You do realize a guy can give up on plays and still be a good blocker right?Keep up that effort though.Look, there is no problem with him being #2 behind Rice (who both could be passed by Megatron...though, Calvin will have the trends of the league that will hurt how he is viewed given its more of a passing league now and Detroit throws the ball a ton).Just find it funny how much you want to defend what are completely legit criticisms about Moss and his game.

I actually don't really like rankings of players across eras- I got into that here last week, no need to rehash it. So I wasn't trying to argue about how he compares to Rice or anyone else. I just posted the column, and then got into the discussion of how people so readily dismiss him as "lazy" or "underachieving" because it fits an easy narrative. I think that's interesting because like I said, I think the truth is a lot more complicated, with Moss just like with most other stars that everyone tries to put under a single description.

 

[tdmills]

Coming from the guy who has been claiming I just don't understand and basically been calling me and others sheep for following the narrative?Yeah...ok.And anyone claiming a win or loss on an argument always makes for good times.

Coming from the guy that ruins more threads than anyone else in the SP. Look in the mirror.

Thanks for your great reply that is on topic.Yeah...its never things like this that ruins threads...its people actually talking about the topic that do it.Grow up.

I actually feel sorry for you. Instead of discussing a topic, you argue until you're right. Instead of showing respect, you disrespect and try to make others feel bad. Trying to make others feel bad on the internet, doesn't sound mature.You also throw out "grow up." Funny you say that because part of "growing up" is learning that differences occur in the world and we're all in the people business. Learning how to adapt in that environment creates healthy, lasting, constructive relationships/environments. Another part of "growing up" is having those tough conversations with people and telling them what they really need to know, instead of beating around the bush. I did that by telling you how you act and you need to "look in the mirror"=take some time for self reflection.So if by "growing up" is being honest with people and trying to save them from a lifetime of immature relationships, well then i'm already there.

 

[tdmills]

IMHO, I'd take Rice number one of all time (and will say, one of the easiest arguments to back as the number one at his position in football). Then if I had to choose i'd take Owens, Harrison, Carter, Brown over him. In my eyes, he should be looked at in the top 10, top 5 is harder, and definitely not number one. I'm assuming in a few years looking back, I'll even put Calvin, and Fitzgerald in there too.Don't get me wrong, he had the physical talent, but... he never actually consistently applied himself.

I don't think Tim Brown belongs in this conversation, but I agree with others in that it's difficult to rank players across eras. Where does Don Hudson fit in? He had crazy good numbers for his time.

 

[Raider Nation]

Tobias hooking 'em left and right in here.Next up, he describes how Moss gave 100% effort for the Raiders on every play.

 

[sho nuff]

Coming from the guy who has been claiming I just don't understand and basically been calling me and others sheep for following the narrative?Yeah...ok.And anyone claiming a win or loss on an argument always makes for good times.

Coming from the guy that ruins more threads than anyone else in the SP. Look in the mirror.

Thanks for your great reply that is on topic.Yeah...its never things like this that ruins threads...its people actually talking about the topic that do it.Grow up.

I actually feel sorry for you. Instead of discussing a topic, you argue until you're right. Instead of showing respect, you disrespect and try to make others feel bad. Trying to make others feel bad on the internet, doesn't sound mature.You also throw out "grow up." Funny you say that because part of "growing up" is learning that differences occur in the world and we're all in the people business. Learning how to adapt in that environment creates healthy, lasting, constructive relationships/environments. Another part of "growing up" is having those tough conversations with people and telling them what they really need to know, instead of beating around the bush. I did that by telling you how you act and you need to "look in the mirror"=take some time for self reflection.So if by "growing up" is being honest with people and trying to save them from a lifetime of immature relationships, well then i'm already there.

Sweet...more personal attacks rather than discussing the topic (yet, Im supposedly the one who tries making others feel bad? Please link to me just being disrespectful to others who were not already doing so and trying to make them feel bad...I give respect where respect is given...be a condescending person claiming I don't understand something, and you will get the same in return).I throw out grow up to people like you who come into a topic and claim I ruin it...but its crap like you posted...just personal attacks at posters that ruin threads...not people discussing the topic at hand.Talk about being disrespectful...look in the mirror chief.And sorry...I don't need you to tell me how to act...when your actions are far worse than what you claim I do here.

 

[sho nuff]

Tobias hooking 'em left and right in here.Next up, he describes how Moss gave 100% effort for the Raiders on every play.

Going to go for the claim that he is fishing now huh?

 

[TobiasFunke]

Tobias hooking 'em left and right in here.Next up, he describes how Moss gave 100% effort for the Raiders on every play.

Going to go for the claim that he is fishing now huh?

Nah, that was last week I don't think he's been a model citizen by any stretch, but I also don't think the fans give him a fair shake because they try to fit him into neat little package for easy consumption, like they do with most athletes. Remember how much everyone loved the quiet dignity and class of Marvin Harrison? Oops.I also think he's hilarious, and I have a soft spot for guys that are hilarious.

 

[BassNBrew]

Coming from the guy who has been claiming I just don't understand and basically been calling me and others sheep for following the narrative?Yeah...ok.And anyone claiming a win or loss on an argument always makes for good times.

I didn't call you sheep, but fair point about casting stones.But you do keep making the same mistakes about the narrative argument. You're claiming you're not just following the narrative, but then you offer up (without links) anecdotes about him quitting on routes and his teammates and coaches complaining about it. The whole point is that the evidence of him quitting on routes or giving less effort is partially- maybe even mostly- a function of people wanting to confirm the narrative. I'm sure there's some truth to it, but there's also teammates who love and respect him, coaches who've loved him (Belichek first sought him out and then even defending him when Brady criticized), quotes indicating that he really is passionate about the game along with discussions of his work ethic, etc. But nobody wants to read about that. I'm betting this is the first anyone here has even heard of those reports from his 49er teammates. Instead, everyone wants to pick through the film to find evidence of him letting up on plays (even though he's been an excellent blocker in his career) and find and point to the negative quotes while ignoring the positive ones like the ones from Belicheck in that last link.

Why have we seen such a decline in his performance? He was outplayed by a handful of other receiving options on Sunday. To be the greatest ever you have to have some staying power.

 

[massraider]

Dwight Clark and Bill Romanowski: Slaves to the Narrative

How Randy Moss quitting on a play led to his Viking release

Jerry Rice also cannot , apparently, see beyond the narrative

Cris Carter obviously cannot be trusted. Sheep!!

Carolina DBs not appreciating the complicated human that is Randy....