Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Bolded doesn't usually work. She'll come in loaded for bear, angry. You can't leverage this #### with threats, guilt, or anything else if she doesn't want to go and have it go well.
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Marriage...When is it over? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Peak
- Start date
El Floppo
Footballguy
avoiding her... even if she doesn't abide by his rulesHuh? I would love to know, truly, how my saying that you should not do anything passive agressive is, in fact, passive agressive avoidance?If she was a stay at home mom, I'd agree. OP says she works, so most of Yankee's reply is kind of strange, old-school misogynist clap-trap, IMO... and also passive aggressive avoidance.
but I didn't read through initially- didn't see the laying down of those rules in the first place (non-passive aggressive)... just saw you saying to avoid her (passive-aggressive).
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Then you misinterpret or I wasn't clear.avoiding her... even if she doesn't abide by his rulesHuh? I would love to know, truly, how my saying that you should not do anything passive agressive is, in fact, passive agressive avoidance?If she was a stay at home mom, I'd agree. OP says she works, so most of Yankee's reply is kind of strange, old-school misogynist clap-trap, IMO... and also passive aggressive avoidance.
but I didn't read through initially- didn't see the laying down of those rules in the first place (non-passive aggressive)... just saw you saying to avoid her (passive-aggressive).
You don't avoid her as in, hide from the confrontation or conversation necessary. You tackle it head on. If she starts you firmly say you aren't taking part in a conversation where she belittles you. If she can't speak to her husband like an adult then she doesn't get to be treated like an adult and you leave the conversation and refuse to take part in it. It's really that simple. That's not avoidance.
Chemical X
Footballguy
start hiding money?
Trying not to read the whole thread, but, this caught my eye. I don't understand this, the H word hasn't slowed my misses down.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Then you misinterpret or I wasn't clear.avoiding her... even if she doesn't abide by his rulesHuh? I would love to know, truly, how my saying that you should not do anything passive agressive is, in fact, passive agressive avoidance?If she was a stay at home mom, I'd agree. OP says she works, so most of Yankee's reply is kind of strange, old-school misogynist clap-trap, IMO... and also passive aggressive avoidance.
but I didn't read through initially- didn't see the laying down of those rules in the first place (non-passive aggressive)... just saw you saying to avoid her (passive-aggressive).
You don't avoid her as in, hide from the confrontation or conversation necessary. You tackle it head on. If she starts you firmly say you aren't taking part in a conversation where she belittles you. If she can't speak to her husband like an adult then she doesn't get to be treated like an adult and you leave the conversation and refuse to take part in it. It's really that simple. That's not avoidance.
Niles Standish
Footballguy
It's over. Once a woman starts looking at you as that spineless guy it's almost impossible to change things. The best thing you can do is stop being that doting husband. Stay a good father. Pick up some fun hobbies for yourself. Focus on your fitness if you've let yourself go. Start moving on. Don't be that creep screwing other women until you're divorced. But start doing things for yourself.
Women are funny, if they see you honestly moving on. They start to think about the relationship. They either try and fix things (which probably is doomed to fail). Or they are happy they don't have this puppy dog following them and just go about moving on. Either way things are almost certainly done.
You'll respect yourself more and so will she if you're moving on too. She has already moved on. She's just scared of divorce. But truthfully if she wants out there's nothing you can do. Start working on making yourself a better guy for the next lady in your life. And start preparing yourself emotionally so you're ready to move on soon too.
Women are funny, if they see you honestly moving on. They start to think about the relationship. They either try and fix things (which probably is doomed to fail). Or they are happy they don't have this puppy dog following them and just go about moving on. Either way things are almost certainly done.
You'll respect yourself more and so will she if you're moving on too. She has already moved on. She's just scared of divorce. But truthfully if she wants out there's nothing you can do. Start working on making yourself a better guy for the next lady in your life. And start preparing yourself emotionally so you're ready to move on soon too.
Zow
Footballguy
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
Spanky24
Footballguy
This.Sorry again. Just remember to keep telling the kids "It is not their fault" keep repeating until they get sick of it. I still see it in my kids eyes a bit of guilt and I have been divorced 13 year.Ya. Reading over what I wrote, it looks that way. I think counseling will help us, or at least me. Just hard to give up on someone you've known and loved for so many years because they aren't happy with themselves. The part that bothers me is that she doesn't realize that she's taking it out on everyone around her. Or if she does, she doesn't seem to care.How old the kids? 10, 8, 5
Does she work? Yes
Make more money than you? No
Is there someone else? No. She doesn't spend her time going out or doing anything else. Her daily routine is exactly the same, like clockwork. I'm confident there is no one else.
Sounds like you guys are in a bad place and should try counseling at least if you do split up, you can communicate better.
But it looks like it is done.Sorry man
Also, learn to bite your tongue until it bleeds when talking to the Soon to be ex in front of the kids. Nothing good ever comes in fighting in front of the kids or bad mouthing your ex.
GL
As a kid who grew up with divorced parents, my relationship with my dad was ruined for many years because my mom bad mouthed him non-stop. Looking back it was all lies and pent up anger that hurt only my siblings and I.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Go to Paris for a week. Give it a shot.
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
Give her a big hug and don't let go. You'll get your answer.
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cstu
Footballguy
Is it over when you hope your wife gets cancer and doesn't survive?
You know, for a friend.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Dont drag, just tell her you are going and invite her to join you. Try to stay patient and keep inviting her. Eventually she will become interested in what you're discussing if she has any hope that you guys can work this out. Good luck man.
MikeIke
Footballguy
Yankee23 bringing some serious 
in this thread.
For the OP, if she won't go to counseling with you, I suggest you go by yourself. It may not help your marriage, but it will help you sort things out. Plus, if she knows you're going to counseling it may drive the seriousness of the situation home to her and maybe she'll join you.
From the small amount of information you've given my first thought is that it's over and you need a divorce attorney to protect yourself. But if you're not at that point yet, then counseling is something you can do for yourself that will help clear your mind and prepare for what lies ahead, whichever way it goes.
I say this as someone who has gone through a cheating wife, hiring a divorce attorney, attending over a year of counseling, and ultimately staying married. I've been to rock-bottom. Things still aren't great, but they're a hell of a lot better than they were 3 years ago.
in this thread.For the OP, if she won't go to counseling with you, I suggest you go by yourself. It may not help your marriage, but it will help you sort things out. Plus, if she knows you're going to counseling it may drive the seriousness of the situation home to her and maybe she'll join you.
From the small amount of information you've given my first thought is that it's over and you need a divorce attorney to protect yourself. But if you're not at that point yet, then counseling is something you can do for yourself that will help clear your mind and prepare for what lies ahead, whichever way it goes.
I say this as someone who has gone through a cheating wife, hiring a divorce attorney, attending over a year of counseling, and ultimately staying married. I've been to rock-bottom. Things still aren't great, but they're a hell of a lot better than they were 3 years ago.
bostonfred
Footballguy
You don't need her to go to marriage counseling. You've got plenty of work you can do before that. Truth be told, you're probably a perfectly normal couple, and all couples go through ruts and rough patches over the course of decades together. It's ridiculous top think you wouldn't. And if you're a normal couple, then the sad reality is you're probably a ####ty husband. Most of us are. We expect sec and hey mad when it doesn't happen, but she expects things that aren't happening, too. And if it's easy to resent being asked to take out the garbage when all you want is a blow job, imagine how much worse it is to be asked to suck a #### when all you want is for him to take out the ####### garbage.Ya. Reading over what I wrote, it looks that way. I think counseling will help us, or at least me. Just hard to give up on someone you've known and loved for so many years because they aren't happy with themselves. The part that bothers me is that she doesn't realize that she's taking it out on everyone around her. Or if she does, she doesn't seem to care.How old the kids? 10, 8, 5
Does she work? Yes
Make more money than you? No
Is there someone else? No. She doesn't spend her time going out or doing anything else. Her daily routine is exactly the same, like clockwork. I'm confident there is no one else.
Sounds like you guys are in a bad place and should try counseling at least if you do split up, you can communicate better.
But it looks like it is done.
If you want to repair the relationship, it's pretty simple.
1) stop sucking. Stop doing the things that really piss her off. Cut down on the things she doesn't like, but tolerates. Stop creating new resentment.
2) improve. Noticeably improve. Start doing the things that matter. Fix that creaky stair, clean out the garage stall, do the chores that would make her happy. But more important, talk to her. Tell her about that crappy thing at work, tell funny stories, listen to her stories and ask questions about things that have been bothering her. These are the things that get lost when you're in a resentment phase.
3) be patient. Don't expect her to notice that you've been acting nice or that you caulked that crack. This isn't about getting credit. And definitely don't tell her your trying harder. She has to notice on her own, and not one single act, but the overall improvement. She will. And it will be much better if she noticed on her own.
4) don't ask her to improve. She will notice the things you're doing, just like you'd notice if she started coming home and sucking your #### more often. Give her some time to take this in, and adjust in her own way.
5) give her a chance. If she doesn't respond the way you'd hoped, then get a sitter and set up a date night that you'd both enjoy. Make it clear that what you want is time alone together. Not just sex, but a date night, maybe even a hotel room. And don't talk about your relationship. Have fun doing something you both enjoy. See a concert. Watch a good movie. Get a fancy meal. And enjoy it together - don't just do something she wants, or you want. Don't walk on eggshells. Have fun and try to make her laugh.
6) communicate. If you do all thay aid and you don't see a change, now's the time to talk to her. But make sure your not just blasting away at the things she does or doesn't do. Don't get mad that you're not having sex. Put your moves on her. Talk to her about the things you were doing wrong and how you're trying to fix them. Figure out the things you want her to do, then try to figure out how you can help make the transition work. Like if you want her to work out after work, then you need to pick up the kids and get them feed and watered. Or if you want her to cook, then tell her you want her famous meatballs and get the kids to ask for them. Then offer to pick up the ingredients and get the kids or of her hair so she can do it. Faciliate the improvements you want her to make.
7) stop asking people for advice. Your relationship is your unique thing, and a bunch of Internet sociopaths who are divorced or never married aren't going to help. Their advice will be to break up with your girlfriend because that's what they do. You don't have a girlfriend. You have a wife, and it sounds like that means something to you. So fix your self, then work with her to improve the things you want, and stop day dreaming about taking the easy way out and getting divorced. You can always do that later if you must, but nothing good comes from thinking about the path of last resistance as a viable option.
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
Well said.
MikeIke
Footballguy
Fred, I think what you posted had a lot of value. But one thing I don't really like about your post is that it seems to put it all on him. "Make all these changes, and she'll respond." what if she doesn't?
I'm coming from the viewpoint of having a wife with a diagnosed personality disorder. In my case, your advice wouldn't work because she absolutely wouldn't respond to it. From her viewpoint what you're describing is just what she "deserves."
I guess what I'm saying is that the Op shouldn't put it all on himself, which is what your post seems to say to me. It takes two to make a marriage work. From the initial post it sounds to me like he is willing to work but she isn't.
I'm coming from the viewpoint of having a wife with a diagnosed personality disorder. In my case, your advice wouldn't work because she absolutely wouldn't respond to it. From her viewpoint what you're describing is just what she "deserves."
I guess what I'm saying is that the Op shouldn't put it all on himself, which is what your post seems to say to me. It takes two to make a marriage work. From the initial post it sounds to me like he is willing to work but she isn't.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
It isnt all about her. It isn't all about him. If you ask him, she needs to change, and until she changes, he will resent her. If you ask her, don't you think she will feel the same? You can't control her. You can only control what you do. But there are things that you can do which will break down the resentment and entitlement baskets which are preventing both of you from changing. It's hard to change and I don't blame you for saying they both need to change. That's absolutely true. But somebody has to put in the effort first. That's how relationships work.
A lot of people refuse to change. Most of us do. I know I usually do. But when you both continue to do the things that piss each other off, and not so the things that are important to each other, you get a barrier of resentment that is difficult and time consuming to break down. Someone has to start that effort. And of its important to you, then be the person who starts it.
You're right that she might not change, or that is not "fair" to ask him to be the one who changes, especially if you don't expect her to change. But that also sounds like exactly the resentment I'm talking about. I don't know what is fair or right but if it's important to you to fix things and you have the ability to do it then I think it's worth trying hard whether it's fair or not. It sounds like it's important to the op. It's up to him to decide whether it's important enough to try hard even if it feels unfair that he has to be the one doing most of the work at first.
But i categorically disagree with the notion that she's not willing to change. We don't know that. We have no idea of she's willing to change. We just know that she hasn't been the one to break down the resentment barrier yet. Maybe she eventually will. From her perspective, it seems like he isn't willing to change, and she won't know if he is until he actually proves it.
For some people, they won't start changing until they know the other person will, too. In fact, that sounds like your advice to the op. But if that was your advice to his wife, too, then they'd never fix their problems. Don't discourage either of them from being the one to extend that olive branch.
P and s, i can't speak to your specific case. I have some experience with that myself, in that my parents divorced after my dad tried for years to work with my mom while her mental health deteriorated. There are extenuating circumstances that would totally change my advice. I wish you the best of luck with your relationship and your happiness going forwardm. It's not an easy thing.
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MikeIke
Footballguy
Great reply, Fred. And I don't doubt that there are things the OP could change to make his marriage better. We all have things we could work on to make the lives of our spouses, and therefore our, lives easier. If the OP can make positive changes that will make them both happier, then I say go for it. There's nothing to lose, and a lot to gain.
But (and isn't there always a but?) it's very possible that the OP is living in a situation where he HAS tried, and he HAS made concessions, and he HAS changed his behavior to be more inviting to his wife but simply isn't receiving anything in return? If that's the case, he has a very difficult decision in front of him. And, if that's the case, I think he needs to do what's best for him.
But (and isn't there always a but?) it's very possible that the OP is living in a situation where he HAS tried, and he HAS made concessions, and he HAS changed his behavior to be more inviting to his wife but simply isn't receiving anything in return? If that's the case, he has a very difficult decision in front of him. And, if that's the case, I think he needs to do what's best for him.
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Judge Smails
Footballguy
Sounds like misery to me. I'm willing to bet that the OP can try every thing that BostonFred recommended and it will end up with what the poster said about her perception of him as spineless.
I just don't understand someone's unwillingness to even try one counseling session to save a long term marriage. For me, if I was the OP, I would be the one doing the leaving.
I just don't understand someone's unwillingness to even try one counseling session to save a long term marriage. For me, if I was the OP, I would be the one doing the leaving.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Focusing on how good the relationship used to be isn't going to help you at all. After 4 years of resentment, that relationship is unfortunately long over. You can try and form a new relationship but you'd really be starting from scratch. Have to ask yourself is it worth it and if you were meeting this person for the first time, would you be interested in dating them?
AAABatteries
Footballguy
NCCommish
Footballguy
I understand where you are completely. My wife has been diagnosed as clinically depressed. She has extreme anxiety issues. She has become agoraphobic. We had a great thing for a lot of years. She couldn't have kids but that didn't bother me we just got to be more selfish with each others time. We went places, did things and enjoyed a low key but fun life. Then it all started to change. She got sick. The sickness dragged on due to misdiagnosis.Took two years and thousands of dollars to get the right diagnosis. Then took 2-3 years to get that physical problem fixed. Fixing that one caused another. She slipped into depression/anxiety and here we are. We spend a lot of time in other rooms. She only feels fully safe in "her" room. So she stays in there a lot. To the point of eating in there as well. This has been going on for 10 years. There is no real physical relationship. She finds it painful and is never really "in the mood" and I feel like I am forcing her if I press. The lack of children makes it a bit easier but not much. I will say at least with her meds she doesn't have a temper and most of her symptoms are under control most of the time. So we don't fight and we aren't in moods with each other.
I know a lot of folks would leave and no one would blame them. I know I wouldn't. This is so very hard. But for me I made a promise. I don't make many and I stick by the ones I do make. I don't know if she would do the same. I would bet against it actually. But that isn't the point. It's what would I do. And I am staying because I said for better of worse in sickness and in health. I waited a while to say those things and I didn't take it lightly. I am not going anywhere.
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T Bell
Footballguy
People are averse because they're scared to death of opening up that closet where all of the family secrets/baggage is stored and not talked about and having to address it.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Yep. I know there must be some dark stuff in my wife's head she doesn't want to relive. Got her to therapy way back but she got scared when she felt they were getting close to revealing something dark in her past. Wouldn't go back for anything. Uses every excuse now to keep from going to anything like therapy. Sad thing is bringing it out may go a long way to getting her back to being the woman I married. I don't think it is ever going to happen though.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
And they're scared that they may have actually had a role in the marriage failing. Much easier to convince yourself that your spouse is 90% of the problem. My wife and i went to counseling one time. I found a female therapist that i thought she would like who was recommended, made an appointment, pretty much had to drag her there. She refused to go back. The therapist agreed/sided with me way too much. Said she felt like the bad guy and was being ganged up upon. Could not see that this was an impartial observer trying to help. I've since asked her to move out.
spOOfy
Footballguy
why not just say to her point blank... the 2 of you are not making it work together. you think a 3rd party would help. and if she's not willing, it's already over. is that what she wants? then, you find out. it's on her now to make it work. if she's not willing, what's the point?
good luck.
T Bell
Footballguy
It can go deeper than that. It may go back to things that predate the marriage, e.g. the sexual abuse that she suffered as a kid or something.
NCCommish
Footballguy
She is suffering from untreated depression. Ultimatums are not your friend here. Getting her at least on some prescription help to get her mind in a better place is really the first step if she'll take it.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Yeah, if there are medical issues they need to be addressed first.
General Malaise
Footballguy
I was going to go with snowflakes, but you know what? Every dump is different.
bostonfred
Footballguy
If your avatar said me eat all the snow then I think snowflake would have been the obvious choice. But it doesn't and it wasn't so here we are, enjoying a rare taste of ffa poetry.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Todem
Footballguy
urbanhack
Fight The Power!
Websites suck these days. There is the headline and then no article or content. Great job yahoo!!
AAABatteries
Footballguy
CurlyNight
Footballguy
CurlyNight
Footballguy
Good luck OP. I hope you do what's best for you (and it will ultimately be for your kids too as long as you keep them close). Been there with my parents and it's no fun but ultimately much better to see them both happy now than miserable.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Ugh your wife isn't interested in making this work. Sorry but it's definitely over.
Tick
Footballguy
I had the opposite - my relationship with my dad was ruined for many years because he tried to badmouth my mom. Dude... she's my mom.This.Sorry again. Just remember to keep telling the kids "It is not their fault" keep repeating until they get sick of it. I still see it in my kids eyes a bit of guilt and I have been divorced 13 year.Ya. Reading over what I wrote, it looks that way. I think counseling will help us, or at least me. Just hard to give up on someone you've known and loved for so many years because they aren't happy with themselves. The part that bothers me is that she doesn't realize that she's taking it out on everyone around her. Or if she does, she doesn't seem to care.How old the kids? 10, 8, 5
Does she work? Yes
Make more money than you? No
Is there someone else? No. She doesn't spend her time going out or doing anything else. Her daily routine is exactly the same, like clockwork. I'm confident there is no one else.
Sounds like you guys are in a bad place and should try counseling at least if you do split up, you can communicate better.
But it looks like it is done.
Also, learn to bite your tongue until it bleeds when talking to the Soon to be ex in front of the kids. Nothing good ever comes in fighting in front of the kids or bad mouthing your ex.
GL
As a kid who grew up with divorced parents, my relationship with my dad was ruined for many years because my mom bad mouthed him non-stop. Looking back it was all lies and pent up anger that hurt only my siblings and I.
popsecret
Footballguy
Awh, this breaks my heart. Sorry you went through that.I had the opposite - my relationship with my dad was ruined for many years because he tried to badmouth my mom. Dude... she's my mom.This.Sorry again. Just remember to keep telling the kids "It is not their fault" keep repeating until they get sick of it. I still see it in my kids eyes a bit of guilt and I have been divorced 13 year.Ya. Reading over what I wrote, it looks that way. I think counseling will help us, or at least me. Just hard to give up on someone you've known and loved for so many years because they aren't happy with themselves. The part that bothers me is that she doesn't realize that she's taking it out on everyone around her. Or if she does, she doesn't seem to care.How old the kids? 10, 8, 5
Does she work? Yes
Make more money than you? No
Is there someone else? No. She doesn't spend her time going out or doing anything else. Her daily routine is exactly the same, like clockwork. I'm confident there is no one else.
Sounds like you guys are in a bad place and should try counseling at least if you do split up, you can communicate better.
But it looks like it is done.
Also, learn to bite your tongue until it bleeds when talking to the Soon to be ex in front of the kids. Nothing good ever comes in fighting in front of the kids or bad mouthing your ex.
GL
As a kid who grew up with divorced parents, my relationship with my dad was ruined for many years because my mom bad mouthed him non-stop. Looking back it was all lies and pent up anger that hurt only my siblings and I.
badmojo1006
Footballguy
Has there been any update?
CurlyNight
Footballguy
I was 17 when I was put in middle of their ordeal by my dad. My bro was 8. He was using bro as a pawn and making him think my mom is the bad guy. With me I knew he was at fault but had a heart to feel bad for both of them and just listened to my dad go on and cry to me about helping him get back with her, and mom freaking out about how she's going to do it on her own on the other end. Mind you we are talking about an Iranian family where 30 years ago divorce was pretty much only accepted if something big was wrong, not just not getting along. You made your bed and you lay in it was the motto back then. Not so these days but man was it hard when you had extended family from Iran on your back as well trying to get the scoop from me and being told to keep them together. NOT good times and I was starting university too so way too much on me. But I love both my parents and did back then too through all the shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit I was put through and bro the same. Life is too short to hold a grudge against a parent or 2 so both us kids not too long after it was over moved on from it mentally.I had the opposite - my relationship with my dad was ruined for many years because he tried to badmouth my mom. Dude... she's my mom.This.Sorry again. Just remember to keep telling the kids "It is not their fault" keep repeating until they get sick of it. I still see it in my kids eyes a bit of guilt and I have been divorced 13 year.Ya. Reading over what I wrote, it looks that way. I think counseling will help us, or at least me. Just hard to give up on someone you've known and loved for so many years because they aren't happy with themselves. The part that bothers me is that she doesn't realize that she's taking it out on everyone around her. Or if she does, she doesn't seem to care.How old the kids? 10, 8, 5
Does she work? Yes
Make more money than you? No
Is there someone else? No. She doesn't spend her time going out or doing anything else. Her daily routine is exactly the same, like clockwork. I'm confident there is no one else.
Sounds like you guys are in a bad place and should try counseling at least if you do split up, you can communicate better.
But it looks like it is done.
Also, learn to bite your tongue until it bleeds when talking to the Soon to be ex in front of the kids. Nothing good ever comes in fighting in front of the kids or bad mouthing your ex.
GL
As a kid who grew up with divorced parents, my relationship with my dad was ruined for many years because my mom bad mouthed him non-stop. Looking back it was all lies and pent up anger that hurt only my siblings and I.
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