Common Core Education Standards (2 Viewers)

[timschochet]

If you want to argue that this program won't work because it's not a good idea, that's fine.

If you want to argue that this program is a bad idea because the federal government shouldn't be involved in education, that's fine.

If you want to argue that this program is a waste of money, that's fine.

All of these are legitimate arguments.

BUT- if you argue that this program is a threat to your liberty, or that it's a way to impose Communism, or that it's a plot by the Obama Administration to bring about the dictatorship (I guess the NSA and gun control just aren't enough, they need Common Core as well), then you're making a fringe argument. And if I've insulted anyone by saying this, I apologize. But it's still true.

Who the hell in this thread is arguing that? Are you setting up your own pretend straw men?

Several people here have argued the "threat to liberty" angle, starting with the first post. The communism and dictatorship angles appear mostly on right wing websites.

 

[Slapdash]

If you want to argue that this program won't work because it's not a good idea, that's fine.

If you want to argue that this program is a bad idea because the federal government shouldn't be involved in education, that's fine.

If you want to argue that this program is a waste of money, that's fine.

All of these are legitimate arguments.

BUT- if you argue that this program is a threat to your liberty, or that it's a way to impose Communism, or that it's a plot by the Obama Administration to bring about the dictatorship (I guess the NSA and gun control just aren't enough, they need Common Core as well), then you're making a fringe argument. And if I've insulted anyone by saying this, I apologize. But it's still true.

Who the hell in this thread is arguing that? Are you setting up your own pretend straw men?

Several people here have argued the "threat to liberty" angle, starting with the first post. The communism and dictatorship angles appear mostly on right wing websites.

Who are you quoting? You are literally the only person to use the word threat.

 

[Rich Conway]

Thanks for labeling me as "fringe". Why would you do that?

It's Tim. It's what he always does. Do you not read his posts? They're kind of hard to avoid.

Say fringe things and you should be called out for saying fringe things. I do it from time to time.

The problem is that your working definition of "fringe", much like your working definition of populism, is heavily dependent on your own feelings. Things you like don't get called fringe or populist, while things you don't like do.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Anybody here teach HS English? I have a buddy that does and he says that there is a pretty big shift from fiction to non-fiction. I actually haven't seen the new standards myself. Is he right?

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

If you want to argue that this program won't work because it's not a good idea, that's fine.

If you want to argue that this program is a bad idea because the federal government shouldn't be involved in education, that's fine.

If you want to argue that this program is a waste of money, that's fine.

All of these are legitimate arguments.

BUT- if you argue that this program is a threat to your liberty, or that it's a way to impose Communism, or that it's a plot by the Obama Administration to bring about the dictatorship (I guess the NSA and gun control just aren't enough, they need Common Core as well), then you're making a fringe argument. And if I've insulted anyone by saying this, I apologize. But it's still true.

Who the hell in this thread is arguing that? Are you setting up your own pretend straw men?

Several people here have argued the "threat to liberty" angle, starting with the first post. The communism and dictatorship angles appear mostly on right wing websites.

Who cares what appears on right (or left) wing websites? Are you now arguing with people that don't even post here?

 

[parasaurolophus]

Bottom line for me is that this is just "the next big thing!". I've been around education long enough to know that there's a very big possibility that in 5-10 years somebody is going to come up with something else...and so on.

Abolish having timed classes and let kids go at their own speed might help for starters.

This is a joke right?

 

[timschochet]

If you want to argue that this program won't work because it's not a good idea, that's fine.

If you want to argue that this program is a bad idea because the federal government shouldn't be involved in education, that's fine.

If you want to argue that this program is a waste of money, that's fine.

All of these are legitimate arguments.

BUT- if you argue that this program is a threat to your liberty, or that it's a way to impose Communism, or that it's a plot by the Obama Administration to bring about the dictatorship (I guess the NSA and gun control just aren't enough, they need Common Core as well), then you're making a fringe argument. And if I've insulted anyone by saying this, I apologize. But it's still true.

Who the hell in this thread is arguing that? Are you setting up your own pretend straw men?

Several people here have argued the "threat to liberty" angle, starting with the first post. The communism and dictatorship angles appear mostly on right wing websites.

Who cares what appears on right (or left) wing websites? Are you now arguing with people that don't even post here?

Nope. I just compared the first "threat to liberty" angle to the other angles. To me they're all the same.

 

[wazoo11]

Bottom line for me is that this is just "the next big thing!". I've been around education long enough to know that there's a very big possibility that in 5-10 years somebody is going to come up with something else...and so on.

Abolish having timed classes and let kids go at their own speed might help for starters.

This is a joke right?

Yes, clearly. I don't think they will ever do away with lectures all together. There may be slight changes in formatting for some classes as we figure out what works best for each subject.

 

[Hooper31]

Several people here have argued the "threat to liberty" angle, starting with the first post. The communism and dictatorship angles appear mostly on right wing websites.

I was the only person to use the word liberty. Just me. Here was the exact post.

The problem with this question is that it fails to acknowledge there are other questions that need to be answered long before we get to an acceptance of a nation wide set of standards. Who is the primary beneficiary? Is it the student? Is it society in general? Is it the business world? What is considered a successfully educated student? Is it a well rounded liberal education? Is it a math score?

I submit to you there are many valid opposing answers to all these questions. I think rational people in different parts of the country can share opposing viewpoints and determine for their own community what an education should look like. The cost of liberty means allowing others to believe and act differently than you would given the same circumstances.

This is the post I made where you decided to label me as "fringe". Now it appears you're lumping me in with the extreme right wing. Wonderful. I've voted for exactly one Republican in my life. If anything I'm as liberal as they come.

Did you bother to take a moment and consider the questions I was asking in that post? It appears that you didn't. Before determining what curriculum should be used shouldn't we first determine the purpose? Who are the stake holders? What's the desired outcome? Like I tried to point out before I believe there are rational opposing arguments to all those questions. Oh. Wait. No, I'm "fringe". Apparently rational people can't disagree in your world. Anyone that thinks otherwise is "fringe".

I've seen you get labeled as a doosh-nozzle a lot. Now I see why.

 

[KCitons]

Anybody here teach HS English? I have a buddy that does and he says that there is a pretty big shift from fiction to non-fiction. I actually haven't seen the new standards myself. Is he right?

Actually, isn't the shift from English to Spanish?

 

[timschochet]

Several people here have argued the "threat to liberty" angle, starting with the first post. The communism and dictatorship angles appear mostly on right wing websites.

I was the only person to use the word liberty. Just me. Here was the exact post.

The problem with this question is that it fails to acknowledge there are other questions that need to be answered long before we get to an acceptance of a nation wide set of standards. Who is the primary beneficiary? Is it the student? Is it society in general? Is it the business world? What is considered a successfully educated student? Is it a well rounded liberal education? Is it a math score?

I submit to you there are many valid opposing answers to all these questions. I think rational people in different parts of the country can share opposing viewpoints and determine for their own community what an education should look like. The cost of liberty means allowing others to believe and act differently than you would given the same circumstances.

This is the post I made where you decided to label me as "fringe". Now it appears you're lumping me in with the extreme right wing. Wonderful. I've voted for exactly one Republican in my life. If anything I'm as liberal as they come.

Did you bother to take a moment and consider the questions I was asking in that post? It appears that you didn't. Before determining what curriculum should be used shouldn't we first determine the purpose? Who are the stake holders? What's the desired outcome? Like I tried to point out before I believe there are rational opposing arguments to all those questions. Oh. Wait. No, I'm "fringe". Apparently rational people can't disagree in your world. Anyone that thinks otherwise is "fringe".

I've seen you get labeled as a doosh-nozzle a lot. Now I see why.

Ouch.

I apologize for grouping you in. I've been reading a lot about this program in right wing sources and there's a paranoia of the federal government that seemed eerily similar to the concerns over gun control (and another subject I won't mention here) so the moment I heard the word "liberty" I probably made some assumptions that I should not have. I've probably been guilty of that a LOT lately- I'm getting pissed off by this constant paranoia (especially ever since Obama became POTUS) and it's affected my judgment and behavior. I HAVE been a doosh-nozzle. I'm sorry, both to you and anyone else I've insulted.

Your concerns do seem pretty reasonable. I have no idea what the correct answer is.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Ouch.

I apologize for grouping you in. I've been reading a lot about this program in right wing sources and there's a paranoia of the federal government that seemed eerily similar to the concerns over gun control (and another subject I won't mention here) so the moment I heard the word "liberty" I probably made some assumptions that I should not have. I've probably been guilty of that a LOT lately- I'm getting pissed off by this constant paranoia (especially ever since Obama became POTUS) and it's affected my judgment and behavior. I HAVE been a doosh-nozzle. I'm sorry, both to you and anyone else I've insulted.

Your concerns do seem pretty reasonable. I have no idea what the correct answer is.

You've been doing it as long as I've been a member here. Maybe that's why i call you out on it constantly. Just quit it. The generalizations and insults are getting tiring.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Several people here have argued the "threat to liberty" angle, starting with the first post. The communism and dictatorship angles appear mostly on right wing websites.

Who are the other "several" people you were referring to Tim? Or is it only the one who you now admit you were wrong about? Just quit it. You keep apologizing but eventually when you do the same thing over and over again people quit believing your apologies.

 

[timschochet]

Ouch.

I apologize for grouping you in. I've been reading a lot about this program in right wing sources and there's a paranoia of the federal government that seemed eerily similar to the concerns over gun control (and another subject I won't mention here) so the moment I heard the word "liberty" I probably made some assumptions that I should not have. I've probably been guilty of that a LOT lately- I'm getting pissed off by this constant paranoia (especially ever since Obama became POTUS) and it's affected my judgment and behavior. I HAVE been a doosh-nozzle. I'm sorry, both to you and anyone else I've insulted.

Your concerns do seem pretty reasonable. I have no idea what the correct answer is.

You've been doing it as long as I've been a member here. Maybe that's why i call you out on it constantly. Just quit it. The generalizations and insults are getting tiring.

I'm going to treat your comments as constructive criticism. I will try to be more attentive to your point.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Ouch.

I apologize for grouping you in. I've been reading a lot about this program in right wing sources and there's a paranoia of the federal government that seemed eerily similar to the concerns over gun control (and another subject I won't mention here) so the moment I heard the word "liberty" I probably made some assumptions that I should not have. I've probably been guilty of that a LOT lately- I'm getting pissed off by this constant paranoia (especially ever since Obama became POTUS) and it's affected my judgment and behavior. I HAVE been a doosh-nozzle. I'm sorry, both to you and anyone else I've insulted.

Your concerns do seem pretty reasonable. I have no idea what the correct answer is.

You've been doing it as long as I've been a member here. Maybe that's why i call you out on it constantly. Just quit it. The generalizations and insults are getting tiring.

I'm going to treat your comments as constructive criticism. I will try to be more attentive to your point.

Didn't we have a BET about this exact type of thing a couple months ago? And you said you NEVER insult people. And here you are again, apologizing. Take it any way you want to. The FACT is you do it time and time again. I don't expect you to stop. And I will keep calling you out on it until you stop being an elitist doosh.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Tim, you've done a really good job over the past year ruining every single thread you post in. LHUCKS could learn a lot from you.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Several people here have argued the "threat to liberty" angle, starting with the first post. The communism and dictatorship angles appear mostly on right wing websites.

Who are the other "several" people you were referring to Tim? Or is it only the one who you now admit you were wrong about? Just quit it. You keep apologizing but eventually when you do the same thing over and over again people quit believing your apologies.

Tim,

I'd like a response to this post. Because repeatedly you say a bunch of people have said something in a thread when it might only be one person, or it might be just one person who said something you completely misinterpreted as happened here. Either post who the others were in this thread or admit you took ONE post, misread it, extrapolated it to a number or people, and then responded with some type of feigned anger to that "group" of people. I think you need to own up to your accusations.

 

[timschochet]

Several people here have argued the "threat to liberty" angle, starting with the first post. The communism and dictatorship angles appear mostly on right wing websites.

Who are the other "several" people you were referring to Tim? Or is it only the one who you now admit you were wrong about? Just quit it. You keep apologizing but eventually when you do the same thing over and over again people quit believing your apologies.

Tim,

I'd like a response to this post. Because repeatedly you say a bunch of people have said something in a thread when it might only be one person, or it might be just one person who said something you completely misinterpreted as happened here. Either post who the others were in this thread or admit you took ONE post, misread it, extrapolated it to a number or people, and then responded with some type of feigned anger to that "group" of people. I think you need to own up to your accusations.

Fine.

In addition to Hooper's post about liberty, the first post in the thread included the question: "Is anyone concerned about the infringement of parental rights?" That same poster followed that up in the 10th post with the comment that this program was an "invasion of privacy." These were the comments I was referring to as "fringe." In retrospect, it was too broad an assessment. I also didn't consider the term "fringe" to be especially insulting, and certainly didn't intend it that way. I have since apologized.

In the Verizon thread today Politician Spock called my comments a sign of ignorance and stupidity. Personally, I consider that to be quite a bit more insulting than calling something "fringe". But since I hear that often, I pretty much let it slide off my back.

I still don't agree with your assessment that I have been especially insulting in this forum. But there are times when I DO go over the line, and when that happens I try to catch myself and apologize.

 

[timschochet]

Tim, you've done a really good job over the past year ruining every single thread you post in. LHUCKS could learn a lot from you.

Sorry you feel this way. I have noticed that my positions on some issues that have come up in the last year or so do seem to antagonize a lot of people. I can't help that. There are also people here who seem to be antagonized by my presence here, and apparently you're one of them.

LHUCKS deliberately set out to antagonize people. I can assure you that this has NEVER been my intent- not one, in all the years I have posted here.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Fine.

In addition to Hooper's post about liberty, the first post in the thread included the question: "Is anyone concerned about the infringement of parental rights?" That same poster followed that up in the 10th post with the comment that this program was an "invasion of privacy." These were the comments I was referring to as "fringe." In retrospect, it was too broad an assessment. I also didn't consider the term "fringe" to be especially insulting, and certainly didn't intend it that way. I have since apologized.

In the Verizon thread today Politician Spock called my comments a sign of ignorance and stupidity. Personally, I consider that to be quite a bit more insulting than calling something "fringe". But since I hear that often, I pretty much let it slide off my back.

I still don't agree with your assessment that I have been especially insulting in this forum. But there are times when I DO go over the line, and when that happens I try to catch myself and apologize.

So all your concerns were about one poster's comments in multiple posts, and now you admit they're legit concerns? Just quit it.

As far as you and PS, I don't care. That's between you and him. Your taking offense to someone else's characterization of you has nothing to do with your characterization of others. Don't try to tie the two together. Just quit it.

And of course you don't consider YOUR insults as insulting as the ones you find other people making about you. That doesn't make it true. Just quit it.

Have you ever considered just addressing the topics without anything that could even be construed as an insult or generalization? If not, you should try it.

 

[Hooper31]

I apologize for grouping you in.

Thank you, sir.

Your concerns do seem pretty reasonable. I have no idea what the correct answer is.

I don't know either. I think I could define the purpose of public education in terms of what I would want as an outcome, but I doubt it would match up to the ideas of most policy makers working in our government.

 

[Ilov80s]

In Denmark we've had uniform requirements for all public and private schools since 1937. It seems surreal to be arguing that it is better to have diverging standards. It seems like arguing that we really are better off having different regions on BluRay discs, one for Philadelphia another for New York and a third for Los Angeles.

Denmark's population is just over half of New York City. Michigan alone has about 2.5x the square mileage of Denmark. Lets not even get into the diversity in culture, race, religion, language, poverty, etc. Denmark is not a real comparison to the US.

So you'd like BluRays to have different regions across the US, the electrical sockets to be different in each city you go to and currency to be different in each community?Assuming the answer to all of the above is no, then why is it different that the bar for math and English be at the same level everywhere in the US?

Comparing Blu Ray codes and electrical plugs to education. You don't see the differences?Just because some things are good when uniform and universal, that doesn't mean everything is better that way.

So what is your argument against standards for math and English?.

I never once said I was against math or English standards.

 

[msommer]

In Denmark we've had uniform requirements for all public and private schools since 1937. It seems surreal to be arguing that it is better to have diverging standards. It seems like arguing that we really are better off having different regions on BluRay discs, one for Philadelphia another for New York and a third for Los Angeles.

Denmark's population is just over half of New York City. Michigan alone has about 2.5x the square mileage of Denmark. Lets not even get into the diversity in culture, race, religion, language, poverty, etc. Denmark is not a real comparison to the US.

So you'd like BluRays to have different regions across the US, the electrical sockets to be different in each city you go to and currency to be different in each community?Assuming the answer to all of the above is no, then why is it different that the bar for math and English be at the same level everywhere in the US?

Comparing Blu Ray codes and electrical plugs to education. You don't see the differences?Just because some things are good when uniform and universal, that doesn't mean everything is better that way.

So what is your argument against standards for math and English?.

I never once said I was against math or English standards.

So is there some specific standard(s) in the Common Core you disagre with?

 

[Ilov80s]

In Denmark we've had uniform requirements for all public and private schools since 1937. It seems surreal to be arguing that it is better to have diverging standards. It seems like arguing that we really are better off having different regions on BluRay discs, one for Philadelphia another for New York and a third for Los Angeles.

Denmark's population is just over half of New York City. Michigan alone has about 2.5x the square mileage of Denmark. Lets not even get into the diversity in culture, race, religion, language, poverty, etc. Denmark is not a real comparison to the US.

So you'd like BluRays to have different regions across the US, the electrical sockets to be different in each city you go to and currency to be different in each community?Assuming the answer to all of the above is no, then why is it different that the bar for math and English be at the same level everywhere in the US?

Comparing Blu Ray codes and electrical plugs to education. You don't see the differences?Just because some things are good when uniform and universal, that doesn't mean everything is better that way.

So what is your argument against standards for math and English?.

I never once said I was against math or English standards.

So is there some specific standard(s) in the Common Core you disagre with?

The further loss of local control, the giant price tag and the fact that none if it has been tested.

 

[msommer]

In Denmark we've had uniform requirements for all public and private schools since 1937. It seems surreal to be arguing that it is better to have diverging standards. It seems like arguing that we really are better off having different regions on BluRay discs, one for Philadelphia another for New York and a third for Los Angeles.

Denmark's population is just over half of New York City. Michigan alone has about 2.5x the square mileage of Denmark. Lets not even get into the diversity in culture, race, religion, language, poverty, etc. Denmark is not a real comparison to the US.

So you'd like BluRays to have different regions across the US, the electrical sockets to be different in each city you go to and currency to be different in each community?Assuming the answer to all of the above is no, then why is it different that the bar for math and English be at the same level everywhere in the US?

Comparing Blu Ray codes and electrical plugs to education. You don't see the differences?Just because some things are good when uniform and universal, that doesn't mean everything is better that way.

So what is your argument against standards for math and English?.

I never once said I was against math or English standards.

So is there some specific standard(s) in the Common Core you disagre with?

The further loss of local control, the giant price tag and the fact that none if it has been tested.

So if these standards were proposed by your local school board they would be fine?

 

[Ilov80s]

In Denmark we've had uniform requirements for all public and private schools since 1937. It seems surreal to be arguing that it is better to have diverging standards. It seems like arguing that we really are better off having different regions on BluRay discs, one for Philadelphia another for New York and a third for Los Angeles.

Denmark's population is just over half of New York City. Michigan alone has about 2.5x the square mileage of Denmark. Lets not even get into the diversity in culture, race, religion, language, poverty, etc. Denmark is not a real comparison to the US.

So you'd like BluRays to have different regions across the US, the electrical sockets to be different in each city you go to and currency to be different in each community?Assuming the answer to all of the above is no, then why is it different that the bar for math and English be at the same level everywhere in the US?

Comparing Blu Ray codes and electrical plugs to education. You don't see the differences?Just because some things are good when uniform and universal, that doesn't mean everything is better that way.

So what is your argument against standards for math and English?.

I never once said I was against math or English standards.

So is there some specific standard(s) in the Common Core you disagre with?

The further loss of local control, the giant price tag and the fact that none if it has been tested.

So if these standards were proposed by your local school board they would be fine?

The standards themselves are ok, I wouldn't be happy about the testing situation. I wouldn't be happy about the increased cost of it all. At least if my local school board put them in place, the stakeholders would have input.

 

[msommer]

Hmmm, I'm not sure I understand changing one's position on the basis of who makes the proposal, local, state or federal. Don't think I ever will so I'll drop out of this discussion.

 

[Rich Conway]

I apologize for grouping you in.

Thank you, sir.

Your concerns do seem pretty reasonable. I have no idea what the correct answer is.

I don't know either. I think I could define the purpose of public education in terms of what I would want as an outcome, but I doubt it would match up to the ideas of most policy makers working in our government.

I doubt it too, unless your preferred outcome is get the incumbents reelected.

 

[Skipdog77]

I am opposed to the Common Core. When Michigan put in very specific graduation requirements for the state, I was opposed to that as well. The more that can be kept local, the better. Before Michigan put in their state requirements, the school had the ability to tailor a curriculum for each student based on their strengths, weaknesses, likes, and goals. However, with the new state requirements, we essentially have to put all students on the same curriculum. Nationalizing the standards and the testing is only going to make the situation worse. There is no way a parent, student, teacher, or administrator can have interaction or input with the forces driving their education.

Also, I am pretty sure these test scores are going to be a nightmare. All the tests are on the computer. We don't have enough computers for every kid to take the tests. The "hypemen" for Common Core keep saying not to worry and that we will get what we need. Doubtful. This means to do the testing, we are going to have to do it in blocks which means we will lose a week or more every time we test. There are talks about testing anywhere from 2x a year to monthly. This is costing states billions of dollars to reinvent their curriculum. All while many schools are physically falling apart, can't pay teachers, have a lack of technology, etc.

Here is a summarized version of a 7th grade math question:

You have been hired to help remodel a bedroom. Here are the paint color options that the couple like. It lists a few different pains and their price per gallon. It then lists it takes x gallons per square feet and tells you the dimensions of all the bedroom walls. Students must calculate how many cans of paint to buy and how much it will cost. (They have to know on their own that walls require 2 coats of paint and to subtract out the area of the windows).

Then, there is a list of the flooring the couple likes. Students will decide which flooring, how much they need, and calculate cost based on prices.

Then there are multiple furniture options they have to choose from based on price and size. The couple has an heirloom rug which must be in the space so that has to be factored in while laying out the furniture.

Finally, students must calculate a price that they will charge the couple based on the cost of the supplies and the amount of work they have done.

Can you post the actual question instead of a slanted summary? I find it impossible to believe that it didnt list the sizes of the windows and mention that it takes two coats if that was necessary for the proper answer.Paint doesnt require two coats quite frequently. In fact probably over 50% of the paint jobs I did as a painting contractor only required one coat. It would have to list the sizes of the windows in order to even be rooted in math. I dont have a problem with forcing kids to think logically that they shouldnt paint windows. I suspect it was worded MUCH differently than what you listed.

I don't have the question, it was presented at a Common Core workshop. It did list the measurements of the windows, the room, furniture options, etc. The question did not tell students to use two coats, but the presenter said it was expected that they did. There was also a budget and some expectations of how long the job will take. Perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems very challenging for a middle schooler. Most adults I know that remodel their house screw this stuff up. Anyway, that was just one example. Most of the questions are still multiple choice. Instead of circling in an oval on a scantron, it's dragging and dropping or pointing and clicking on a computer.

Isn't this the point of trying to teach this type of logical thinking in school? If they learn how to think properly to solve such a problem in school, maybe they won't screw it up when they are adults.

 

[Psychopav]

Bottom line for me is that this is just "the next big thing!". I've been around education long enough to know that there's a very big possibility that in 5-10 years somebody is going to come up with something else...and so on.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Keeping things like education strictly local does a disservice to kids who are born to idiots.

The country as a whole has a vested interest in raising education standards across the board. I'm ok with local boards determining how they want to meet those standards though. But if you want federal money, then play by federal rules.

 

[Lutherman2112]

Anybody here teach HS English? I have a buddy that does and he says that there is a pretty big shift from fiction to non-fiction. I actually haven't seen the new standards myself. Is he right?

Actually, the shift is intended to address reading, writing, and research across the curriculum, including history and science. The thought behind this is that career/college readiness focuses on understanding text outside of literature.

This has more to do with teachers outside of English focusing on reading and writing to build skills.

ETA: link to standards.

 

[Lutherman2112]

In Denmark we've had uniform requirements for all public and private schools since 1937. It seems surreal to be arguing that it is better to have diverging standards. It seems like arguing that we really are better off having different regions on BluRay discs, one for Philadelphia another for New York and a third for Los Angeles.

Denmark's population is just over half of New York City. Michigan alone has about 2.5x the square mileage of Denmark. Lets not even get into the diversity in culture, race, religion, language, poverty, etc. Denmark is not a real comparison to the US.

So you'd like BluRays to have different regions across the US, the electrical sockets to be different in each city you go to and currency to be different in each community?Assuming the answer to all of the above is no, then why is it different that the bar for math and English be at the same level everywhere in the US?

Comparing Blu Ray codes and electrical plugs to education. You don't see the differences?Just because some things are good when uniform and universal, that doesn't mean everything is better that way.

So what is your argument against standards for math and English?.

I never once said I was against math or English standards.

So is there some specific standard(s) in the Common Core you disagre with?

The further loss of local control, the giant price tag and the fact that none if it has been tested.

So if these standards were proposed by your local school board they would be fine?

The standards themselves are ok, I wouldn't be happy about the testing situation. I wouldn't be happy about the increased cost of it all. At least if my local school board put them in place, the stakeholders would have input.

These are standards, not curriculum. National standards set benchmarks to be achieved, the local and state school boards create the curriculum to meet the benchmarks.

 

[Mario Kart]

Anybody here teach HS English? I have a buddy that does and he says that there is a pretty big shift from fiction to non-fiction. I actually haven't seen the new standards myself. Is he right?

Actually, the shift is intended to address reading, writing, and research across the curriculum, including history and science. The thought behind this is that career/college readiness focuses on understanding text outside of literature.

This has more to do with teachers outside of English focusing on reading and writing to build skills.

ETA: link to standards.

WORLDS ARE COLLIDING!!!!!!!Anyway, I do high school history and the inclusion of DBQ's as well as, for my students, getting away from multiple choice tests, social studies teachers are doing more writing than English teachers nowadays (not all but some). Also, I forget the name of the test but in a couple years the test all juniors will take is much more DBQ like than the current multiple choice type stuff.

 

[Lutherman2112]

Anybody here teach HS English? I have a buddy that does and he says that there is a pretty big shift from fiction to non-fiction. I actually haven't seen the new standards myself. Is he right?

Actually, the shift is intended to address reading, writing, and research across the curriculum, including history and science. The thought behind this is that career/college readiness focuses on understanding text outside of literature.

This has more to do with teachers outside of English focusing on reading and writing to build skills.

ETA: link to standards.

WORLDS ARE COLLIDING!!!!!!!Anyway, I do high school history and the inclusion of DBQ's as well as, for my students, getting away from multiple choice tests, social studies teachers are doing more writing than English teachers nowadays (not all but some). Also, I forget the name of the test but in a couple years the test all juniors will take is much more DBQ like than the current multiple choice type stuff.

I did my student teaching in 2006; 7th grade Geography. First two weeks I observed and sat in on teaching team meetings. One day, I approached the two ELA teachers and asked them about the techniques they were using to teach paragraph writing.

Their jaws dropped when I suggested I was going to use short essay questions based upon their teachings. They had never had a teacher even attempt to introduce ELA into a Social Studies class.

 

[Mario Kart]

Anybody here teach HS English? I have a buddy that does and he says that there is a pretty big shift from fiction to non-fiction. I actually haven't seen the new standards myself. Is he right?

Actually, the shift is intended to address reading, writing, and research across the curriculum, including history and science. The thought behind this is that career/college readiness focuses on understanding text outside of literature.This has more to do with teachers outside of English focusing on reading and writing to build skills.

ETA: link to standards.

WORLDS ARE COLLIDING!!!!!!!Anyway, I do high school history and the inclusion of DBQ's as well as, for my students, getting away from multiple choice tests, social studies teachers are doing more writing than English teachers nowadays (not all but some). Also, I forget the name of the test but in a couple years the test all juniors will take is much more DBQ like than the current multiple choice type stuff.

I did my student teaching in 2006; 7th grade Geography. First two weeks I observed and sat in on teaching team meetings. One day, I approached the two ELA teachers and asked them about the techniques they were using to teach paragraph writing.Their jaws dropped when I suggested I was going to use short essay questions based upon their teachings. They had never had a teacher even attempt to introduce ELA into a Social Studies class.

Yeah, I'm not sure why English classes don't write anymore or as much. I told my kids day one that they have to tell me what they know and circling an answer tells me they can make a circle. Kids hate it.I will also be teaching them how to write an intro, body, conclusion. Not sure why English doesn't stress this as much as they "should" but it's just the way it is right now. Maybe it will change but it will be slow. Argh!

 

[Jaysus]

Blackdot

 

[Hooper31]

So if these standards were proposed by your local school board they would be fine?

I would be good with this. I guess this question makes me focus on my real issue. Its not the standards themselves. Its the question of how they will be measured, interpreted, and acted upon. IMO this is something that a locally elected body will handle best. Are there idiots in some of these small districts? Of course, but its a risk I'm willing to take. Further, it will give localities to ability to lower or raise their standards as they see fit.

Chew on this example from the CC standards:

http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Content/HSG/SRT

CCSS.Math.Content.HSG-SRT.D.9 (+) Derive the formula A = 1/2 ab sin© for the area of a triangle by drawing an auxiliary line from a vertex perpendicular to the opposite side.

CCSS.Math.Content.HSG-SRT.D.10 (+) Prove the Laws of Sines and Cosines and use them to solve problems.

CCSS.Math.Content.HSG-SRT.D.11 (+) Understand and apply the Law of Sines and the Law of Cosines to find unknown measurements in right and non-right triangles (e.g., surveying problems, resultant forces).

Should all students be able to prove the Law of Sines and the Law of Cosines? I can because I've been teaching both of these concepts for over 20 years, but for all students to do this is silly IMO. However, if I'm in Bellevue, WA I might change my mind. Why Bellevue? Because they have money rolling down the hallways of their school like tidal waves. The students in that district have enormous advantages over a tiny district like the one in Tonasket, WA that's off in the middle of nowhere.

Link to a proof of the Law of Cosines

Is it an overly complicated proof? Not really. Its utilizes the concept of right triangle trigonometry (sine and cosine) and pythagorean theorem twice for two halves of the same triangle. For the average teenager this is beyond pointless. At best a student is going to have to memorize this and regurgitate it before they forget it. I know that less than 1% of the guys posting in this forum could sit down right now and spill out a proof for the Law of Cosines.

Who sat down and made these lists of standards? Math teachers that want all their students to love math. Math teachers that think this subject is easy. Who should be setting the standards? Would the average parent include these proofs in the requirements? Would the average successful businessman include these proofs in the requirements? They might want them included, but are they essential? Are they basic and necessary? Remember, we're talking about the bar for all students.

 

[Rich Conway]

Anybody here teach HS English? I have a buddy that does and he says that there is a pretty big shift from fiction to non-fiction. I actually haven't seen the new standards myself. Is he right?

Actually, the shift is intended to address reading, writing, and research across the curriculum, including history and science. The thought behind this is that career/college readiness focuses on understanding text outside of literature.This has more to do with teachers outside of English focusing on reading and writing to build skills.

ETA: link to standards.

WORLDS ARE COLLIDING!!!!!!!Anyway, I do high school history and the inclusion of DBQ's as well as, for my students, getting away from multiple choice tests, social studies teachers are doing more writing than English teachers nowadays (not all but some). Also, I forget the name of the test but in a couple years the test all juniors will take is much more DBQ like than the current multiple choice type stuff.

I did my student teaching in 2006; 7th grade Geography. First two weeks I observed and sat in on teaching team meetings. One day, I approached the two ELA teachers and asked them about the techniques they were using to teach paragraph writing.Their jaws dropped when I suggested I was going to use short essay questions based upon their teachings. They had never had a teacher even attempt to introduce ELA into a Social Studies class.

Yeah, I'm not sure why English classes don't write anymore or as much. I told my kids day one that they have to tell me what they know and circling an answer tells me they can make a circle. Kids hate it.I will also be teaching them how to write an intro, body, conclusion. Not sure why English doesn't stress this as much as they "should" but it's just the way it is right now. Maybe it will change but it will be slow. Argh!

Maybe schools stress circling a multiple choice answer because we keep introducing "standardized tests", and we base the school's funding on their performance on those tests? The federal government is dumbing down the level of education, not raising it up.

 

[Hooper31]

The federal government is dumbing down the level of education, not raising it up.

This assumes all school districts across the country are they same. For some districts we're setting up a standard that will be impossible to meet. For others they're already operating at a level far above those standards.

 

[Mario Kart]

Maybe schools stress circling a multiple choice answer because we keep introducing "standardized tests", and we base the school's funding on their performance on those tests? The federal government is dumbing down the level of education, not raising it up.

Maybe. I can see that being one take on it.The test coming down the pipe though is one which will require, either, a higher level of writing or thinking through a document to circle a detailed answer.

Scantrons were new to me in high school and that was not long ago. They are easier to grade and complete but with the new standards grading idea, they seem to not be as effective as actually writing. Maybe just my take on it, don't know the overall consensus or push back from others with opposing view points.

 

[Ilov80s]

These are standards, not curriculum. National standards set benchmarks to be achieved, the local and state school boards create the curriculum to meet the benchmarks.

This is true. I'm not sure if you were trying to dispute something I said, but if you were, I don't see your point.

 

[Ilov80s]

I am opposed to the Common Core. When Michigan put in very specific graduation requirements for the state, I was opposed to that as well. The more that can be kept local, the better. Before Michigan put in their state requirements, the school had the ability to tailor a curriculum for each student based on their strengths, weaknesses, likes, and goals. However, with the new state requirements, we essentially have to put all students on the same curriculum. Nationalizing the standards and the testing is only going to make the situation worse. There is no way a parent, student, teacher, or administrator can have interaction or input with the forces driving their education.

Also, I am pretty sure these test scores are going to be a nightmare. All the tests are on the computer. We don't have enough computers for every kid to take the tests. The "hypemen" for Common Core keep saying not to worry and that we will get what we need. Doubtful. This means to do the testing, we are going to have to do it in blocks which means we will lose a week or more every time we test. There are talks about testing anywhere from 2x a year to monthly. This is costing states billions of dollars to reinvent their curriculum. All while many schools are physically falling apart, can't pay teachers, have a lack of technology, etc.

Here is a summarized version of a 7th grade math question:

You have been hired to help remodel a bedroom. Here are the paint color options that the couple like. It lists a few different pains and their price per gallon. It then lists it takes x gallons per square feet and tells you the dimensions of all the bedroom walls. Students must calculate how many cans of paint to buy and how much it will cost. (They have to know on their own that walls require 2 coats of paint and to subtract out the area of the windows).

Then, there is a list of the flooring the couple likes. Students will decide which flooring, how much they need, and calculate cost based on prices.

Then there are multiple furniture options they have to choose from based on price and size. The couple has an heirloom rug which must be in the space so that has to be factored in while laying out the furniture.

Finally, students must calculate a price that they will charge the couple based on the cost of the supplies and the amount of work they have done.

Can you post the actual question instead of a slanted summary? I find it impossible to believe that it didnt list the sizes of the windows and mention that it takes two coats if that was necessary for the proper answer.Paint doesnt require two coats quite frequently. In fact probably over 50% of the paint jobs I did as a painting contractor only required one coat. It would have to list the sizes of the windows in order to even be rooted in math. I dont have a problem with forcing kids to think logically that they shouldnt paint windows. I suspect it was worded MUCH differently than what you listed.

I don't have the question, it was presented at a Common Core workshop. It did list the measurements of the windows, the room, furniture options, etc. The question did not tell students to use two coats, but the presenter said it was expected that they did. There was also a budget and some expectations of how long the job will take. Perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems very challenging for a middle schooler. Most adults I know that remodel their house screw this stuff up. Anyway, that was just one example. Most of the questions are still multiple choice. Instead of circling in an oval on a scantron, it's dragging and dropping or pointing and clicking on a computer.

Isn't this the point of trying to teach this type of logical thinking in school? If they learn how to think properly to solve such a problem in school, maybe they won't screw it up when they are adults.

Absolutely. That is a fair point. I will concede here as I don't teach middle school so I don't really know exactly how reasonable that question may be. It just struck me as challenging for that age especially being that the context of the question is something very unfamiliar to the average 13 year old. Perhaps I am mistaken.

 

[Ilov80s]

Hmmm, I'm not sure I understand changing one's position on the basis of who makes the proposal, local, state or federal. Don't think I ever will so I'll drop out of this discussion.

The testing issue is a major issue here. Don't overlook that.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Tim mastered the Common Bore standards years ago. amirite?

 

[Prince Myshkin]

I am opposed to the Common Core. When Michigan put in very specific graduation requirements for the state, I was opposed to that as well. The more that can be kept local, the better. Before Michigan put in their state requirements, the school had the ability to tailor a curriculum for each student based on their strengths, weaknesses, likes, and goals. However, with the new state requirements, we essentially have to put all students on the same curriculum. Nationalizing the standards and the testing is only going to make the situation worse. There is no way a parent, student, teacher, or administrator can have interaction or input with the forces driving their education.

Also, I am pretty sure these test scores are going to be a nightmare. All the tests are on the computer. We don't have enough computers for every kid to take the tests. The "hypemen" for Common Core keep saying not to worry and that we will get what we need. Doubtful. This means to do the testing, we are going to have to do it in blocks which means we will lose a week or more every time we test. There are talks about testing anywhere from 2x a year to monthly. This is costing states billions of dollars to reinvent their curriculum. All while many schools are physically falling apart, can't pay teachers, have a lack of technology, etc.

Here is a summarized version of a 7th grade math question:

You have been hired to help remodel a bedroom. Here are the paint color options that the couple like. It lists a few different pains and their price per gallon. It then lists it takes x gallons per square feet and tells you the dimensions of all the bedroom walls. Students must calculate how many cans of paint to buy and how much it will cost. (They have to know on their own that walls require 2 coats of paint and to subtract out the area of the windows).

Then, there is a list of the flooring the couple likes. Students will decide which flooring, how much they need, and calculate cost based on prices.

Then there are multiple furniture options they have to choose from based on price and size. The couple has an heirloom rug which must be in the space so that has to be factored in while laying out the furniture.

Finally, students must calculate a price that they will charge the couple based on the cost of the supplies and the amount of work they have done.

You do know that it is completely unethical to share a test question publicly...

Nevermind...I see where that is not an actual test question but one that was used at a workshop.

 

[Prince Myshkin]

I haven't read the entire thread, but in the first page there were about 20 posts saying how this should be "states' rights" and such and that the federal government doesn't have the right to impose these standards. Well, guess what...the federal government agrees. It is each state's choice to implement these standards or not, and there is no penalty (i.e. funding cuts) for not adopting the standards. In fact, the federal government didn't even develop the standards (although I'm sure grant money was used).

If you actually look at the standards, they are pretty darn good and they are MUCH more rigorous than what many states and local districts were using before. And they are much better than anything my local school board (with its 2 high school graduates and one GED recipient) could possibly come up with, and we didn't have to pay anything to develop them. Textbook prices are supposed to lower (because textbook publishers don't have to make as many different books) and assessments should be more affordable, valid, and reliable.

 

[msommer]

I haven't read the entire thread, but in the first page there were about 20 posts saying how this should be "states' rights" and such and that the federal government doesn't have the right to impose these standards. Well, guess what...the federal government agrees. It is each state's choice to implement these standards or not, and there is no penalty (i.e. funding cuts) for not adopting the standards. In fact, the federal government didn't even develop the standards (although I'm sure grant money was used).

If you actually look at the standards, they are pretty darn good and they are MUCH more rigorous than what many states and local districts were using before. And they are much better than anything my local school board (with its 2 high school graduates and one GED recipient) could possibly come up with, and we didn't have to pay anything to develop them. Textbook prices are supposed to lower (because textbook publishers don't have to make as many different books) and assessments should be more affordable, valid, and reliable.

Standards. Because they work!

 

[Ilov80s]

Textbook prices are supposed to lower (because textbook publishers don't have to make as many different books) and assessments should be more affordable, valid, and reliable.

Do you have any links to support this?

 

[Ilov80s]

Should we create a common core for colleges? Setup tests each freshman, sophomore, junior, and senior take. Then we can actually accurately compare colleges and evaluate professors.