kupcho1
Footballguy
Can't we just give them a government ID?Or should we just throw up our hands and give up?
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Poll: Voter ID? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jon_mx
- Start date
Koya
Footballguy
Sure, and that's probably the best compromise... Though a fingerprint should do the same... Or better.
But we need to implement any national ID program properly and equitably before any requirements of the same.
The Big Guy
Fear the Blitz
If there really are 7 to 9% of voters out there who have no id, then I am all for helping them get an acceptable I'd into their hands. Not being an idiot here, but no id must interfere with their daily lives fiercely.
No ID means they are unable to work legally. Can't fill out I9 without some photo id. Need any banking? Not without an ID.
Since the government is all about helping folks improve their lot in life, this would be a great help.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
In LA we are mailed a green voter ID card. It shows our precinct, district, voting location and address. They work when people go to vote. Don't people receive these everywhere?
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Not 9% of voters, but 9% of eligible voters. The huge majority of them probably don't vote (even in states without voter ID laws).
I think most adults who currently don't have an ID probably used to have one at some point, but it expired or was lost and they didn't renew it. Most such people probably already have bank accounts. And the kind of ID required for Form I-9 is not as strict as for most proposed voter ID laws. A school ID, a military card, or even a library card can often satisfy form I-9.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
In 1997, Louisiana became one of the first states to require voters to show a photo ID at their polling stations. The measure also allowed voters who didn’t have a photo ID to sign an affidavit attesting to their identity.SaintsInDome2006 said:
You sign a list (until about 10 years ago) or a card (since then) saying you are who you say you are. So ultimately not much different than your experience (assuming Louisiana is correct.) That is it seems like the photo id in LA is just a short cut.
Koya
Footballguy
WHAT ILLEGAL VOTES???
Serious, show us the proof of by sort of meaningful / widespread fraud or just admit what this is about. Helping your party over democracy for all.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I sign a list and show an ID card (driver's license).
I and everyone else gets a green card from the registrar, and I think that also works, if the voter appears with that they sign the list.
As for the affidavit, that requires a notary.
This all makes sense to me. Maybe I will ask next time I go vote, but I have never seen anyone do anything different, ie vote without an ID or a green card.
It seems that voter ID card should take care of every situation. Does anyone R or D have a problem with that idea?
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kupcho1
Footballguy
Terrorism doesn't need to be widespread in order to require government-issued photo ID to fly. Why does voter fraud need to be "widespread"? (And why even bring up "meaningful"? That's not an argument worth having.)
The reason why it keeps coming up is because Republicans keep tossing out "illegal votes" which has been proven to be incorrect. Is there a small amount of fraud, yes, and guess what voter ID does not prevent fraud that as well.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Your second sentence completely contradicts what you said in the first sentence. How do you say there are NO illegal votes but then turn around and say that there is fraud (which means illegal voting)?
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Koya
Footballguy
1. So, you are comparing voter fraud - which does not seem to be occurring, hence not having a detrimental effect, vs. people who are trying and have succeeded at killing thousands of Americans. Really? That's all you've got at this point?
2. Nice avoidance of the question by pointing it back at me. You neither answer the question in my post about evidence, nor go into my previous questions about purposely trying to foster more inequity and less freedom.
Those are both such abhorrently un-American statements. Comparing this to terrorism and to push for inequity and not letting people vote. Freakin wonderful.
The Big Guy
Fear the Blitz
Wow talk about hyperbole. Why is it so wrong to ask for a piece of ID from someone who is trying to vote? If they do not have one, then let's figure out a way to help them get one so they can vote. I am not wanting to stop anyone from voting.
This is America and to be able to perform certain tasks you need id. Voting is much more important than driving a car, buying cigarettes or beer and should require at least as much to happen as those. If a person can not afford a proper id, then they should be able to get one without charge (including a public assistance card-which should count IMO)
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Maybe we can get them that vital ID when they arrive to vote?
If you had to choose between being able to vote, or being able to drive a car or buy beer, you'd choose voting?
That's probably a very unusual ordering of priorities.
The Big Guy
Fear the Blitz
Well this is about me in particular since I have proper id and don't drink a lot. I would put driving as #1, but since the people we are talking about do not have a license,
Let me put this another way: have we tried to offer all these id lacking folks the ability to get one free of charge?
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Koya
Footballguy
No hyperbole at all.
I won't repost what I've already said, but to sum it up:
1. I'm not totally against the principle of voter ID, as long as it is implemented fairly, efficiently and equitably. That said, I don't trust the government to do that, and don't like this move toward common Federal ID's. Really don't trust the government at that point.
2. One of the reasons I don't trust gov't (other than a safe natural distrust out of the box), is the reality that many would rather push something to help their party than make things better for all Americans, and worse yet, help their party at the expense of a specific part of the population (which happens to vote the other way).
If this were REALLY about ID's, we could have an intelligent discussion on that topic, and if there was consensus that it would help, then discuss the right way to implement in a way to bolster electoral participation by all, and ensure more fair and transparent elections, again for all.
But, and let's not play silly games here, this is not about ID's. It's been admitted time after time by folks in the party, even. And that disgusts me as an American as we should hold the right to vote above just about all else. And if ID's can help (rather than hurt, which these programs have, and that's been by design), that's ok with me.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Side topic: What's the problem with federal IDs? I'm not seeing why the federal government is too diabolical or incompetent to issue IDs but states are just great.
kupcho1
Footballguy
What partisan gain?Why are you assuming only one party commits voter fraud?
Why don't you want an even playing field.
kupcho1
Footballguy
LOLYou are either missing my point or wrapping yourself around the third rail of terrorism to ignore it.
You seem to deflect the need for voter ID because fraud, in your view, isn't widespread. My point was neither is terrorism, but we require government issued ID to address it. Same should be true for potential voter fraud.
Evidence exists, you just seem to want to ignore it because it isn't "widespread"
kupcho1
Footballguy
I suppose you want to disband the Food & Drug administration as well, eh Cliven?
Koya
Footballguy
Koya
Footballguy
I think Koya understands that voter ID laws are likely to have no discernible effect on voter fraud.
It's about partisan gain because most people without qualifying IDs belong to demographics that lean heavily Democrat.
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Jim11
Footballguy
Koya
Footballguy
Do we need to dig up republican representatives who admitted, in their own words, that the point was to deny votes to groups that would likely vote dem?
It kills me that this is debated, when the cats be let out of the bag, multiple times, by the very people looking to push these through the voting system.
I mean, how can we be so dense?
This argument is pretty dense too, IMO. There are a lot of government reps who are pushing this for partisan reasons. And that's on both sides of the aisle. All it proves is that those individuals are extremely partisan. But if it's the right thing to do I don't care what the motivation is of the people enacting the law. There are a lot of people who think this is the right thing to do. Just look at the results of this poll. Personally, when I look at issues I don't look at whether the issue is partisan or not. I look at what's right for the country. I hope one day you'll join me.
Koya
Footballguy
Show me a fair and equitable manner of implementing voter ID and I've already said I'd be ok. But until it stops being used for the worst kind of exclusionary politics rather than any stated purpose of fraud, etc, I can't accept implementing a law that does more harm and makes things less equitable than not having the law in the first place.
Propose a realistic and fair way to get voter ID and my issues no longer exist in this regard.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
Jim11
Footballguy
It's about partisan gain because most people without qualifying IDs belong to demographics that lean heavily Democrat.
If you can stop a bunch of Democrats from voting, that helps Republicans win elections.
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MaxThreshold
Footballguy
If they can't get off their butts to get ID, do we really think they're able to get off their butt and vote? This is nothing but just a lot of drama from the Democrats.
It's just unfathomable to me that someone can't get an ID within 4 years to vote in a Presidential election or 2 years for a House election or 6 years for a Senate election. If the left is so concerned, then they can start a "get an ID" drive just like they do "get out and vote" drives (and buss everyone in to vote).
Where there is a will there is a way. Sounds like there isn't a lot of will, not necessarily lack of an avenue to get an ID.
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fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I believe there have been some efforts like this. But it isn't quite as easy as picking someone up and taking them to the voting booth. If you look at the Wisconsin stories Maurile linked to, a lot of the people don't have the paperwork that they would need to get the ID in the first place. Helping someone might not be easy.
Obviously, some of them would and some of them wouldn't. We're talking about a very large number of people who don't have IDs, so whatever fraction of them would vote is likely to sometimes affect elections that are often decided by just a few percentage points.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
I don't buy it. There is ALWAYS a way - for some it might be harder but my guess is that it CAN be done and the gubment would be more than willing to work with those people. To me it sounds like those people just don't want to put in the effort.
Seriously, this is an ID we're talking about. We're not asking them to climb Mt. Everest.
Insein
Footballguy
Whats sad is people who think making people prove who they are is disenfranchising them. Its why political discussions are so pointless. Usually one or both sides are so unreasonably stupid to attempt to debate things with.
I don't need to. That's for our politicians to hash out. I mean, what do YOU think their job is? But because of people who are just as partisan in opposing voter id laws and people like you who won't support it until the proposal is out there (a stance I find to be a cop out btw) it never gets past the butt sniffing stage.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
I've heard the arguments before and, again, I think they're weak. What's really going on here are people who don't want to put in the effort to get an ID.
ALL of those examples cited in the document linked are easily rectifiable by the state. I think you'll find NO argument from conservatives to pay for these people to get an ID.
IF the state takes on the burden of helping these people to obtain ID, would you be for Voter ID?
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Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
It is even harder when one side has reasonably intelligent sounding arguments to mask their dishonest agenda item.
The judge in the Wisconsin case found that about 9% of eligible voters in Wisconsin lacked a qualifying ID. And for many of them, getting an ID would involve quite a bit of effort.
Alice Weddle testified that she is unemployed, receives Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid benefits and has no bank accounts or credit cards. She attempted to obtain an ID but was unable to do so because she does not have a birth certificate. Eddie Holloway testified that he would be homeless if his sister did not agree to take him in, and that he is on various forms of public assistance. He testified that he attempted to obtain an ID but was unable to do so because of an error on his birth certificate that he cannot afford to have corrected. Rickey Davis testified that he is unemployed, has no bank accounts and attempted to obtain a photo ID but could not get one because he does not have a birth certificate. Shirley Brown testified that she lives on Social Security disability and attempted to obtain an ID but was unable to do so because she does not have a birth certificate. Melvin Robertson testified that he has no education beyond grade school and that he would like to obtain an ID but cannot because he lacks a birth certificate. Rose Thompson testified that after Act 23 was enacted, she attempted to obtain an ID but could not afford to pay the fees associated with obtaining her birth certificate from Mississippi. Sim Newcomb testified that he does not drive, relies on public transportation, has not recently traveled outside the United States, does not travel on airplanes, and that to the extent he needs a photo ID for banking, he is able to use his Veteran’s ID card, which is not an acceptable ID under Act 23. He testified that he attempted to obtain a Wisconsin ID card but could not satisfy the DMV’s documentation requirements.
...
For almost all low-income voters who lack an ID, the easiest ID to obtain will be the free state ID card, which is issued by the DMV. To obtain a state ID card, a person generally must present documents that satisfy four requirements: (1) proof of name and date of birth, (2) proof of United States citizenship or legal presence in the United States, (3) proof of identity, and (4) proof of Wisconsin residency. The DMV will only accept certain documents to satisfy each of these requirements. ...
To prove name, date of birth and United States citizenship, most people will need to produce a birth certificate. The evidence at trial showed that a substantial number of eligible voters who lack Act 23-qualifying IDs also lack birth certificates. Professor Barreto, in his survey of Milwaukee County eligible voters, found that 25,354 persons lacked both a qualifying ID and a birth certificate. ...
To obtain a Wisconsin birth certificate, a person must produce either a driver’s license or a state ID card or two documents from the following list: (1) a government-issued ID with photograph, (2) a United States passport, (3) a checkbook or bankbook, (4) a major credit card, (5) a health-insurance card, (6) a recent, signed lease, or (7) a utility bill or traffic ticket. The person must also pay a fee of $20. Those who were not born in Wisconsin will need to determine how to obtain a birth certificate from their place of birth. It generally takes more time and expense to obtain a birth certificate from outside one’s state of residence than it does to obtain a birth certificate from within the state. Professor Barreto found that 46.9% of eligible voters in Milwaukee County who lack both an accepted photo ID and a valid birth certificate were born outside Wisconsin.
Individuals who need a free state ID card must also produce a document that the DMV will accept as proof of identity. Professor Barreto found that there are approximately 1,640 eligible voters in Milwaukee County alone who do not have qualifying photo IDs and do not have any of the documents the DMV accepts to prove identity. ...
Most voters who do not have proof of identity will need to procure a social security card, as this is the most commonly available document to use to prove identity. To obtain a social security card, a person must visit the Social Security Office and show “convincing documentary evidence of identity.” Such evidence “may consist of a driver’s license, identity card, school record, medical record, marriage record, passport, Department of Homeland Security document, or other similar document serving to identify the individual.” Id. Voters who need free state ID cards to vote will not have driver’s licenses, state ID cards or passports, so they will need to present one of the other items on the list. If they do not have one of these items, they will need to procure one by visiting a school, hospital or another governmental agency, where they may again be asked for an ID, and the document may cost money.
The remaining documentary requirement to obtain a state ID card is proof of residence. For most voters, this requirement will be easy to satisfy, as the DMV accepts a variety of documents that most individuals are likely to have on hand. Still, homeless voters who do not have a relationship with a social-service agency will be unable to prove residency. And they will be unable to provide the DMV with a physical address where it can send their ID cards once they are ready. Id. This will make it impossible for them to obtain a state ID card because the DMV does not allow individuals to pick up ID cards in-person.
So if you want to get a free state ID card, the first thing you have to do is figure out what documents you'll be required to bring with you to the DMV. The judge described all the requirements above, but she cheated by looking them up in state statutes. That's not a realistic option for many voters, especially the illiterate ones.
Once you've figured out what documents are required, you've got to figure out how to get them. To do that, you've got to figure out what documents are required to get the required documents. For example, in order to get a birth certificate, it'd be helpful to have a driver's license -- but if you had that, you wouldn't need the state ID card in the first place. So you need a bunch of other documents instead -- and you have to figure out what they are and where to get them. It's turtles all the way down.
In order to round up the documents you'll need, you may have to visit various government agencies that are open only on weekdays during business hours, and may not be accessible by public transportation. You might have to pay a fee. This is quite a hardship for people who work 9-5 at or near the poverty level.
And then there are special cases with unusual snafus. Maybe a person's name is spelled differently on his social security card and on his driver's license, etc. Try getting that stuff corrected by government bureaucrats...
Getting a qualifying ID may be pretty easy for most people, but certainly not for everybody.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I don't think that any of the above matters one bit to those wishing to impose voter id laws.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Q.E.D.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
I appreciate your response, MT, but I'm still not buying it. And that judge you keep referring to - Lynn Adelman - was an uber-liberal when he was in the WI legislature. I fully expect his judgement to be overturned on appeal.
The Big Guy
Fear the Blitz
I am trying my best to take this argument away from R vs D and into a ID discussion. It is not that difficult to get the backing documents to prove who you are. Given some unusual circumstances, perhaps they can come up with an acceptable method for certain folks. I work in a bank and have to make people go and get non driver ID from the motor vehicles all the time and I understand how tough it is for a senior to get simple things like a birth certificate (since they want an official one in NJ) and things of that sort. And guess what--without fail the people I tell that they need it get up and go do it. Sometimes it takes them a bit of time and effort, but it gets done.
Now perhaps we can offer up some assistance or an easier way for someone who is destitute or unable to travel to get one. I would be for that totally.
Now perhaps we can offer up some assistance or an easier way for someone who is destitute or unable to travel to get one. I would be for that totally.
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