Retired Cop Kills Man for Texting (1 Viewer)

[Two Deep]

So did this movie theater have a no gun policy?

Did the killer actually talk to management?

Can we focus on the thread title?

They did have a no gun policy, but I'm not sure they can enforce it. When it comes to gun control I believe state statute supercedes that policy. If you have a legal carry conceal license and the state allows you to carry in a theater then you are good to go. The only places you can't carry in Florida that I am aware of off the top of my head are stand alone bar/taverns, some government buildings and any government meeting.

 

[Statorama]

Maybe he reached and pushed the older man.
.

Well then SHOOT HIM! Obviously. Right?

I'd like to know when pushing/punching became grounds for FFL defenses? Talk about the wussification of America.

I remember when a good ### kicking settled things. Black eyes, bloodied noses, cauliflowered ears, no(minimal) broken bones. No life threatening bullet wounds or death to contend with.

I'm thinking it began with the whole "can't disrespect me" movement. Pride over common sense.

Yep. When "keeping it real" goes wrong

 

[TobiasFunke]

So did this movie theater have a no gun policy?

Did the killer actually talk to management?

Can we focus on the thread title?

They did have a no gun policy, but I'm not sure they can enforce it. When it comes to gun control I believe state statute supercedes that policy. If you have a legal carry conceal license and the state allows you to carry in a theater then you are good to go. The only places you can't carry in Florida that I am aware of off the top of my head are stand alone bar/taverns, some government buildings and any government meeting.

Holy ####, is this true? Kinda two-faced on that whole "personal liberty" thing, isn't it? Seems like it should be one or the other.

 

[SWC]

Ive seriously been appauled by some of the comments in here...whether shtick or not...or dry quipping....seriously disgusting

Especially when you knew that someone who reads these boards can roll their chair 9ft and be at the victims wifes desk...

hey man pretty ridiculous that it is me who says it but most of the people reading this do not think it is funny and feel horrible for the family of the guy who was shot and we are pretty mad that we have such a bunch of jagalopes around here who turn threads like this one in to a chance to try and be funny which is sick or to spout off some agenda so for most of us i say sorry and please pass along our condolances take that to the bank

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

Cursing -- check

Popcorn -- check

Pushing -- check

Gun -- check

How does this escalate to a death? Seems like another movie goer would have said something to one of the guys to either put away the phone or shut up old man?

Reeves' personnel files from the police department show he led other agencies in gun safety training and received numerous letters of commendation for his leadership.

The sheriff said at a news conference that Reeves' son — who was off duty from his job as a Tampa officer — was walking into the theater when the shooting happened. Nocco said Reeves briefly struggled with an off-duty deputy but released the weapon. The gun was jammed and unable to fire again. So lucky that the son didn't see his dad with his gun out struggling. Hell the son may have thought they were trying to kill his dad and pulled out his gun?

Pasco Sgt. Steve Greiner was among the first officers in the theater. When asked about Reeves' demeanor, Greiner replied: "He was very calm. He was seated in the chair, looking at the screen." Well I can watch the movie now.

So the guys RedenBacher Phobia = shooting a guy.

 

[glock]

Just because you want the means to protect your family if it came down to that, doesn't mean that you are prepared/trained to know if "this" is one of those times or not.

I likely have more range time and training hours over the last 12 months than half of the officers in the memphis police department. I take the responsibility of carrying very seriously and while I enjoy the hobby of shooting, part of why I take classes and practice at the range is so I'm not a liability to society in the event I ever have to draw in self defense. I can't say that for all folks, though more training should be mandatory.

The group I take defensive carry classes from are the same group that train regional swat teams. This isn't just going out and shooting bottles in jethro's back yard.

No offense icon, but this doesn't really address the point you quoted. Reality is there is nothing out there that can train one to shoot a person. It's a completely different ball game when an actual human being is standing in front of you vs a target you practice on. One can be trained on all the procedures in the world, but it comes down to being able to pull the trigger on a human being. For this reason, I will never carry a gun...simply because I don't know if I could ever pull the trigger on another human being.

...or trust yourself to NOT pull it unless absolutely necessary??

There has to be something wrong with someone if they can look another person in the face and just blow them away over a disagreement in a movie theater...i mean im sure if he just pulled the gun out and said back off it would have been enough to squash things...just strange to me

Heart of the Matter- Don Henley

I got the call today that I didn't wanna hear

But I knew that it would come

An old, true friend of ours was talkin' on the phone

She said you'd found someone

And I thought of all the bad luck

And the struggles we went through

And how I lost me and you lost you

What are these voices outside love's open door

Make us throw off our contentment

And beg for something more?

I'm learning to live without you now

But I miss you sometimes

The more I know, the less I understand

All the things I thought I knew, I'm learning again

I've been tryin' to get down

To the heart of the matter but my will gets weak

And my thoughts seem to scatter

But I think it's about forgiveness, forgiveness

Even if, even if you don't love me anymore

Ah, these times are so uncertain

There's a yearning undefined

And people filled with rage

We all need a little tenderness

How can love survive in such a graceless age?

Ah, the trust and self-assurance that lead to happiness

They're the very things we kill I guess

Ohh, pride and competition cannot fill these empty arms

And the work I put between us

You know it doesn't keep me warm

I'm learning to live without you now

But I miss you, baby

And the more I know, the less I understand

All the things I thought I'd figured out, I have to learn again

I've been trying to get down to the heart of the matter

But everything changes and my friends seem to scatter

But I think it's about forgiveness, forgiveness

Even if, even if you don't love me anymore

There are people in your life who've come and gone

They let you down, you know they hurt your pride

You better put it all behind you baby, 'cause' life goes on

If you keep carryin' that anger, it'll eat you up inside, baby

I've been trying to get down to the heart of the matter

But my will gets weak and my thoughts seem to scatter

But I think it's about forgiveness, forgiveness

Even if, even if you don't love me

I've been tryin' to get down to the heart of the matter

Because the flesh will get weak and the ashes will scatter

So I'm thinkin' about forgiveness, forgiveness

Even if, even if you don't love me

Forgiveness

(Yeah)

Forgiveness

(Baby)

Forgiveness

(Ohh)

Forgiveness

(Ahh, yeah)

Forgiveness

(Ohh)

Forgiveness

Even if, you don't love me anymore

Forgiveness

Forgiveness

Forgiveness

 

[Apple Jack]

No guns postings carry the weight of law in some states. Florida is not one of them.

 

[Premier]

I live in Florida and bought a gun the other day (Sig Sauer p226 9mm...sweeeeeeeeet). I got it transferred in out of state. Walked into the gun shop, filled out a 15 question form basically asking me if I was crazy and/or a felon, did a background check that took less than a minute and walked out with my gun. Whole transaction time was under 20 minutes.

Just seemed too easy to me, but this state is pretty insane about their guns.

 

[Joe T]

I live in Florida and bought a gun the other day (Sig Sauer p226 9mm...sweeeeeeeeet). I got it transferred in out of state. Walked into the gun shop, filled out a 15 question form basically asking me if I was crazy and/or a felon, did a background check that took less than a minute and walked out with my gun. Whole transaction time was under 20 minutes.

Just seemed too easy to me, but this state is pretty insane about their guns.

I could have hooked you up with my boy Juan who could have gotten that exact gun for you in half the time at half the cost.

 

[[icon]]

Just because you want the means to protect your family if it came down to that, doesn't mean that you are prepared/trained to know if "this" is one of those times or not.

I likely have more range time and training hours over the last 12 months than half of the officers in the memphis police department. I take the responsibility of carrying very seriously and while I enjoy the hobby of shooting, part of why I take classes and practice at the range is so I'm not a liability to society in the event I ever have to draw in self defense. I can't say that for all folks, though more training should be mandatory.

The group I take defensive carry classes from are the same group that train regional swat teams. This isn't just going out and shooting bottles in jethro's back yard.

No offense icon, but this doesn't really address the point you quoted. Reality is there is nothing out there that can train one to shoot a person. It's a completely different ball game when an actual human being is standing in front of you vs a target you practice on. One can be trained on all the procedures in the world, but it comes down to being able to pull the trigger on a human being. For this reason, I will never carry a gun...simply because I don't know if I could ever pull the trigger on another human being.

I'm not sure the bolded makes sense.

Yes, I completely understand that no amount of training can fully prepare you for the adrenaline packed situation of an actual encounter. And I've got zero doubts that psychologically there is a profound difference between shooting paper or flesh. Don't misunderstand my post and think I don't get that because I most certainly do.

THAT SAID:

• I know that my training makes me far less of a danger to innocents than joe sixpack who fired 50 rounds at paper 8 years ago when getting his permit and hasn't actually used his pistol since then. Forget the actual training on all the nuances of the actual encounter. Removing the barrier of the mechanical operation of the firearm removes complications like accidentally discharging a round while drawing, while deactivating the safety, etc) and hitting the wrong person is a real risk (in a high stress situation) for someone who has spent little time with their/a firearm.

• Not carrying a means to protect you/yours because you're not sure if you could use it seems silly. While not a perfect comparison by any means (admittedly) that's like saying you wouldn't carry an adrenaline shot for a child with allergies because you're not sure you could stab them if push came to shove. I DO recognize the difference between the two.. just the best comparison I can come up with on the fly. If there's a 75% chance you can pull the trigger, that's a 75% chance you might be able to save your or your family's life.

• I think the training does help improve those odds, because it becomes a learned motion. Assess, Draw, Aim, Fire. repeat. When you've assigned muscle memory and habit to a chain of events I believe it decreases (not eliminates) psychological barriers between steps. Couple that with the aspect of training that teaches you when it's okay to draw (imminent lethal threat), and when it's NOT okay to draw (guy calls you names and throws popcorn at you) and you've created a situation that there is little second guessing yourself because once you've drawn, you know you're in a "him or me" situation. Essentially the training gives you better judgement on the front end, and allows you to follow through more safely and effectively IF (god forbid) the time) comes. The psychological aftermath is something different entirely, but that's a bridge I'll cross if I'm ever forced to come to it.

 

[Politician Spock]

The bottom line (and as a father of two daughters) a little girl is without her dad tonight because of a senseless act of violence and that's the tragedy.

Also the senseless act of texting during a movie and refusing to turn it off when asked.

People usually get killed for that. It's the only way to teach them a lesson.

I tapped a stranger on the shoulder and asked him for the time

last week.... So he shot me!

You've got it backwards. You are supposed to shoot him after he refuses to give you the time.

so what will be the official term for this...we have road rage ...would it just be social rage ?

How about "Two #######s, one gun"?

 

[glock]

Just because you want the means to protect your family if it came down to that, doesn't mean that you are prepared/trained to know if "this" is one of those times or not.

I likely have more range time and training hours over the last 12 months than half of the officers in the memphis police department. I take the responsibility of carrying very seriously and while I enjoy the hobby of shooting, part of why I take classes and practice at the range is so I'm not a liability to society in the event I ever have to draw in self defense. I can't say that for all folks, though more training should be mandatory.

The group I take defensive carry classes from are the same group that train regional swat teams. This isn't just going out and shooting bottles in jethro's back yard.

No offense icon, but this doesn't really address the point you quoted. Reality is there is nothing out there that can train one to shoot a person. It's a completely different ball game when an actual human being is standing in front of you vs a target you practice on. One can be trained on all the procedures in the world, but it comes down to being able to pull the trigger on a human being. For this reason, I will never carry a gun...simply because I don't know if I could ever pull the trigger on another human being.

I'm not sure the bolded makes sense.

Yes, I completely understand that no amount of training can fully prepare you for the adrenaline packed situation of an actual encounter. And I've got zero doubts that psychologically there is a profound difference between shooting paper or flesh. Don't misunderstand my post and think I don't get that because I most certainly do.

THAT SAID:

• I know that my training makes me far less of a danger to innocents than joe sixpack who fired 50 rounds at paper 8 years ago when getting his permit and hasn't actually used his pistol since then. Forget the actual training on all the nuances of the actual encounter. Removing the barrier of the mechanical operation of the firearm removes complications like accidentally discharging a round while drawing, while deactivating the safety, etc) and hitting the wrong person is a real risk (in a high stress situation) for someone who has spent little time with their/a firearm.

• Not carrying a means to protect you/yours because you're not sure if you could use it seems silly. While not a perfect comparison by any means (admittedly) that's like saying you wouldn't carry an adrenaline shot for a child with allergies because you're not sure you could stab them if push came to shove. I DO recognize the difference between the two.. just the best comparison I can come up with on the fly. If there's a 75% chance you can pull the trigger, that's a 75% chance you might be able to save your or your family's life.

• I think the training does help improve those odds, because it becomes a learned motion. Assess, Draw, Aim, Fire. repeat. When you've assigned muscle memory and habit to a chain of events I believe it decreases (not eliminates) psychological barriers between steps. Couple that with the aspect of training that teaches you when it's okay to draw (imminent lethal threat), and when it's NOT okay to draw (guy calls you names and throws popcorn at you) and you've created a situation that there is little second guessing yourself because once you've drawn, you know you're in a "him or me" situation. Essentially the training gives you better judgement on the front end, and allows you to follow through more safely and effectively IF (god forbid) the time) comes. The psychological aftermath is something different entirely, but that's a bridge I'll cross if I'm ever forced to come to it.

You do realize that we are not questioning your ability to shoot a weapon with precision and hit your intended target don't you??

Edited to add: What kind of training do you recieve relevant to the bolded??

 

[[icon]]

I live in Florida and bought a gun the other day (Sig Sauer p226 9mm...sweeeeeeeeet). I got it transferred in out of state. Walked into the gun shop, filled out a 15 question form basically asking me if I was crazy and/or a felon, did a background check that took less than a minute and walked out with my gun. Whole transaction time was under 20 minutes.

Just seemed too easy to me, but this state is pretty insane about their guns.

In TN I met a guy at a Chick fil A parking lot, handed him $400 and he handed me a Glock 26 9mm. 2 mins max (racked and dry fired it to check function). I hear ya on the too easy part. When going through an FFL locally (that paperwork/background process you refer to) they do run a national background check and with modern computing one would think it would be effective but the problem is the government does a horrible job of reporting/consolidating all psych data... which significantly reduces the effectiveness. That is one area we could improve dramatically as well.

And while I love the idea of having my personal carry "off the books" in the event our government ever does get "grabby", I do agree it would be wise to have required FFL intermediary for person to person transactions (much like they do for interstate transfers). I don't see the good ol boys down here ever complying 100% though.

 

[[icon]]

Just because you want the means to protect your family if it came down to that, doesn't mean that you are prepared/trained to know if "this" is one of those times or not.

I likely have more range time and training hours over the last 12 months than half of the officers in the memphis police department. I take the responsibility of carrying very seriously and while I enjoy the hobby of shooting, part of why I take classes and practice at the range is so I'm not a liability to society in the event I ever have to draw in self defense. I can't say that for all folks, though more training should be mandatory.

The group I take defensive carry classes from are the same group that train regional swat teams. This isn't just going out and shooting bottles in jethro's back yard.

No offense icon, but this doesn't really address the point you quoted. Reality is there is nothing out there that can train one to shoot a person. It's a completely different ball game when an actual human being is standing in front of you vs a target you practice on. One can be trained on all the procedures in the world, but it comes down to being able to pull the trigger on a human being. For this reason, I will never carry a gun...simply because I don't know if I could ever pull the trigger on another human being.

I'm not sure the bolded makes sense.

Yes, I completely understand that no amount of training can fully prepare you for the adrenaline packed situation of an actual encounter. And I've got zero doubts that psychologically there is a profound difference between shooting paper or flesh. Don't misunderstand my post and think I don't get that because I most certainly do.

THAT SAID:

• I know that my training makes me far less of a danger to innocents than joe sixpack who fired 50 rounds at paper 8 years ago when getting his permit and hasn't actually used his pistol since then. Forget the actual training on all the nuances of the actual encounter. Removing the barrier of the mechanical operation of the firearm removes complications like accidentally discharging a round while drawing, while deactivating the safety, etc) and hitting the wrong person is a real risk (in a high stress situation) for someone who has spent little time with their/a firearm.

• Not carrying a means to protect you/yours because you're not sure if you could use it seems silly. While not a perfect comparison by any means (admittedly) that's like saying you wouldn't carry an adrenaline shot for a child with allergies because you're not sure you could stab them if push came to shove. I DO recognize the difference between the two.. just the best comparison I can come up with on the fly. If there's a 75% chance you can pull the trigger, that's a 75% chance you might be able to save your or your family's life.

• I think the training does help improve those odds, because it becomes a learned motion. Assess, Draw, Aim, Fire. repeat. When you've assigned muscle memory and habit to a chain of events I believe it decreases (not eliminates) psychological barriers between steps. Couple that with the aspect of training that teaches you when it's okay to draw (imminent lethal threat), and when it's NOT okay to draw (guy calls you names and throws popcorn at you) and you've created a situation that there is little second guessing yourself because once you've drawn, you know you're in a "him or me" situation. Essentially the training gives you better judgement on the front end, and allows you to follow through more safely and effectively IF (god forbid) the time) comes. The psychological aftermath is something different entirely, but that's a bridge I'll cross if I'm ever forced to come to it.

You do realize that we are not questioning your ability to shoot a weapon with precision and hit your intended target don't you??

I'm not sure you read my whole post if that's all you took away from it. From what I read, commish was questioning my ability to pull the trigger if push came to shove (see red above). That's what I was addressing. Part of the training I go through is identifying when "THIS" time might be.

And again I'd like to stress that while I enjoy sport shooting at paper targets, I do genuinely hope that I never have to defend myself (Despite some of the grabbers in here's attempts to paint some CCers as vigilantes looking for excuses to go shoot people).

 

[Premier]

I live in Florida and bought a gun the other day (Sig Sauer p226 9mm...sweeeeeeeeet). I got it transferred in out of state. Walked into the gun shop, filled out a 15 question form basically asking me if I was crazy and/or a felon, did a background check that took less than a minute and walked out with my gun. Whole transaction time was under 20 minutes.

Just seemed too easy to me, but this state is pretty insane about their guns.

I could have hooked you up with my boy Juan who could have gotten that exact gun for you in half the time at half the cost.

Lol. Who could say no to that.

 

[fatness]

The 6-foot-1, 270-pound Reeves also was with his wife for the Monday matinee, and after arguing with Oulson about him texting his daughter, left the theater apparently to complain to management, police said.

A witness said Reeves returned "irritated," the argument continued and popcorn was thrown. Reeves then shot Oulson, sat down and put the gun in his lap, the witness said.

I bet his wife is proud. Now they can go to theaters without fear of texters.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/14/justice/curtis-reeves-theater-shooter-profile/

 

[fatness]

Years later, a 1979 evaluation cited problems with his temperament. "His demeanor is generally very professional. He has, however, occasionally allowed his temper to detrimentally affect his manner of dealing with his supervisors," the evaluation states.

After his retirement, Reeves served as director of security for Busch Gardens Tampa until 2005, said spokesman Travis Claytor, who would not comment on why Reeves' employment came to an end.

A hunter who has held licenses in Georgia and Ohio, Reeves moved in 2005 to Brooksville, Florida -- in Hernando County, adjacent to the county where the theater is located -- and WFLA reports he served as president of the county Crime Stoppers program from 2006 to 2007.

 

[glock]

Just because you want the means to protect your family if it came down to that, doesn't mean that you are prepared/trained to know if "this" is one of those times or not.

I likely have more range time and training hours over the last 12 months than half of the officers in the memphis police department. I take the responsibility of carrying very seriously and while I enjoy the hobby of shooting, part of why I take classes and practice at the range is so I'm not a liability to society in the event I ever have to draw in self defense. I can't say that for all folks, though more training should be mandatory.

The group I take defensive carry classes from are the same group that train regional swat teams. This isn't just going out and shooting bottles in jethro's back yard.

No offense icon, but this doesn't really address the point you quoted. Reality is there is nothing out there that can train one to shoot a person. It's a completely different ball game when an actual human being is standing in front of you vs a target you practice on. One can be trained on all the procedures in the world, but it comes down to being able to pull the trigger on a human being. For this reason, I will never carry a gun...simply because I don't know if I could ever pull the trigger on another human being.

I'm not sure the bolded makes sense.

Yes, I completely understand that no amount of training can fully prepare you for the adrenaline packed situation of an actual encounter. And I've got zero doubts that psychologically there is a profound difference between shooting paper or flesh. Don't misunderstand my post and think I don't get that because I most certainly do.

THAT SAID:

• I know that my training makes me far less of a danger to innocents than joe sixpack who fired 50 rounds at paper 8 years ago when getting his permit and hasn't actually used his pistol since then. Forget the actual training on all the nuances of the actual encounter. Removing the barrier of the mechanical operation of the firearm removes complications like accidentally discharging a round while drawing, while deactivating the safety, etc) and hitting the wrong person is a real risk (in a high stress situation) for someone who has spent little time with their/a firearm.

• Not carrying a means to protect you/yours because you're not sure if you could use it seems silly. While not a perfect comparison by any means (admittedly) that's like saying you wouldn't carry an adrenaline shot for a child with allergies because you're not sure you could stab them if push came to shove. I DO recognize the difference between the two.. just the best comparison I can come up with on the fly. If there's a 75% chance you can pull the trigger, that's a 75% chance you might be able to save your or your family's life.

• I think the training does help improve those odds, because it becomes a learned motion. Assess, Draw, Aim, Fire. repeat. When you've assigned muscle memory and habit to a chain of events I believe it decreases (not eliminates) psychological barriers between steps. Couple that with the aspect of training that teaches you when it's okay to draw (imminent lethal threat), and when it's NOT okay to draw (guy calls you names and throws popcorn at you) and you've created a situation that there is little second guessing yourself because once you've drawn, you know you're in a "him or me" situation. Essentially the training gives you better judgement on the front end, and allows you to follow through more safely and effectively IF (god forbid) the time) comes. The psychological aftermath is something different entirely, but that's a bridge I'll cross if I'm ever forced to come to it.

You do realize that we are not questioning your ability to shoot a weapon with precision and hit your intended target don't you??

I'm not sure you read my whole post if that's all you took away from it. From what I read, commish was questioning my ability to pull the trigger if push came to shove (see red above). That's what I was addressing. Part of the training I go through is identifying when "THIS" time might be.

And again I'd like to stress that while I enjoy sport shooting at paper targets, I do genuinely hope that I never have to defend myself (Despite some of the grabbers in here's attempts to paint some CCers as vigilantes looking for excuses to go shoot people).

Does this training involve shooting drills that train you with regards to which targets to shoot or pass on- mugger with a club vs woman with an umbrella- or does it actually work on crisis management like that which police and security personnel undertake??

 

[fatness]

"Capt. Reeves is highly adept at recognizing potential problems and utilizing available information to achieve positive results. He is frequently called upon to develop and implement department-wide programs concerning firearms and civil disorder," a 1992 evaluation states.

We can't be having civil disorder like texting in movie theaters. That way lies anarchy.

 

[[icon]]

"Capt. Reeves is highly adept at recognizing potential problems and utilizing available information to achieve positive results. He is frequently called upon to develop and implement department-wide programs concerning firearms and civil disorder," a 1992 evaluation states.

We can't be having civil disorder like texting in movie theaters. That way lies anarchy.

Dude is old... crotchety, and likely losing a measurable component of his decision making faculties. I'm all for re-testing / re-evaluating people for carry permits at certain ages (not unlike what some states do for drivers licenses).

 

[The Commish]

Just because you want the means to protect your family if it came down to that, doesn't mean that you are prepared/trained to know if "this" is one of those times or not.

I likely have more range time and training hours over the last 12 months than half of the officers in the memphis police department. I take the responsibility of carrying very seriously and while I enjoy the hobby of shooting, part of why I take classes and practice at the range is so I'm not a liability to society in the event I ever have to draw in self defense. I can't say that for all folks, though more training should be mandatory.

The group I take defensive carry classes from are the same group that train regional swat teams. This isn't just going out and shooting bottles in jethro's back yard.

No offense icon, but this doesn't really address the point you quoted. Reality is there is nothing out there that can train one to shoot a person. It's a completely different ball game when an actual human being is standing in front of you vs a target you practice on. One can be trained on all the procedures in the world, but it comes down to being able to pull the trigger on a human being. For this reason, I will never carry a gun...simply because I don't know if I could ever pull the trigger on another human being.

I'm not sure the bolded makes sense.

Yes, I completely understand that no amount of training can fully prepare you for the adrenaline packed situation of an actual encounter. And I've got zero doubts that psychologically there is a profound difference between shooting paper or flesh. Don't misunderstand my post and think I don't get that because I most certainly do.

THAT SAID:

• I know that my training makes me far less of a danger to innocents than joe sixpack who fired 50 rounds at paper 8 years ago when getting his permit and hasn't actually used his pistol since then. Forget the actual training on all the nuances of the actual encounter. Removing the barrier of the mechanical operation of the firearm removes complications like accidentally discharging a round while drawing, while deactivating the safety, etc) and hitting the wrong person is a real risk (in a high stress situation) for someone who has spent little time with their/a firearm.

• Not carrying a means to protect you/yours because you're not sure if you could use it seems silly. While not a perfect comparison by any means (admittedly) that's like saying you wouldn't carry an adrenaline shot for a child with allergies because you're not sure you could stab them if push came to shove. I DO recognize the difference between the two.. just the best comparison I can come up with on the fly. If there's a 75% chance you can pull the trigger, that's a 75% chance you might be able to save your or your family's life.

• I think the training does help improve those odds, because it becomes a learned motion. Assess, Draw, Aim, Fire. repeat. When you've assigned muscle memory and habit to a chain of events I believe it decreases (not eliminates) psychological barriers between steps. Couple that with the aspect of training that teaches you when it's okay to draw (imminent lethal threat), and when it's NOT okay to draw (guy calls you names and throws popcorn at you) and you've created a situation that there is little second guessing yourself because once you've drawn, you know you're in a "him or me" situation. Essentially the training gives you better judgement on the front end, and allows you to follow through more safely and effectively IF (god forbid) the time) comes. The psychological aftermath is something different entirely, but that's a bridge I'll cross if I'm ever forced to come to it.

My logic is...if you aren't willing to use it as a means of defense, it's pointless to have it. It becomes a danger the carrier introduces. The catch 22 here is it's really hard to know if you're willing to use it until you're put in the situation. I can't imagine a scenario I'd put myself in that would require me to take the life of another individual. WIth that said, I know such scenarios exist somewhere. I'm at a point right now where I believe that such a scenario is so unlikely that carrying in case it happens doesn't make sense.

 

[Clifford]

With all due respect...

How does this range-time/training = "I won't lose my cool and start blasting"?

1) Despite shtick on the forum here, I'm not unstable. I've been in near altercations before while carrying and never once occurred to me to reach for my pistol because it was no way near escalated to that point and that's the last thing I want to cause.

2) Range time / Training means I can maximize the odds of quickly hitting what I am aiming at, and minimize the odds of me hitting what I'm not aiming at in a stressful situation.

Here's a fact: Guns aren't going anywhere. Period. You guys can sit here and kick and scream about how the world would be better with zero guns. Cool I agree. But it will never happen. Soooooo would you rather have mental health and training requirements attempting to cultivate a more stable, responsible gun-toting public?

Keep in mind that still won't stop crazy people from getting guns if they want them... it's already been proven that this nation can't enforce the gun laws it has on the books now... but at least it might encourage responsible carry folks toward getting more training and range time outside the pathetically easy concealed carry class required to get a permit.

I wasn't trying to suggest that you are unstable (or really address you personally at all). I was just pointing out that knowing how to shoot doesn't = knowing when to shoot. Or even when to draw your weapon.

This retired cop could have been Carlos Hathcock but it sound like he had a screw loose.

Oh I make no assertions that training will help in the case that someone is a nutjob. WE have laws on the books to try to prevent those people from getting guns but we're not doing a good job of enforcing those as it is.

Training does actually address situations when you should (very very rarely and only as a last resort against a lethal threat) draw, and when you should (pretty much all the time) keep your #### in your holster. Despite the legal shenanigans in Florida, the law is actually very clear about needing to be able to identify someone who has both intent and ability to do lethal harm to you before self defense with a gun is warranted.

The perception that all handgun carriers are running around with an itchy trigger finger is simply false. There are over 6 Million concealed carry permit holders around this country and incidents involving concealed cary permit holders participating in unwarranted shootings are relatively rare, and most involve people who shouldn't have those guns if we did a good job enforcing current laws.

i'm not saying it's a perfect system... but given the reality of the situation, a little more training and better enforcement of existing mental health checks would go a long way in minimizing this sort of stuff.

What current law if enforced would have prevented this guy from having a gun?

 

[[icon]]

Does this training involve shooting drills that train you with regards to which targets to shoot or pass on- mugger with a club vs woman with an umbrella- or does it actually work on crisis management like that which police and security personnel undertake??

Thus far, yes to the former (various targets pop up, identifying GG/BG is a factor. Yes. If by crisis management you're referring to ways to deflate a situation through body language and conversation/tone before it hits a flashpoint, while discretely getting yourself into a position that minimizes the odds of collateral damage and maximizes your chance of walking away if it hits the flashpoint, yes. Obviously the ideal goal is to talk things down to avoid #### from hitting the fan. However if SHTF, you'd prefer there be a wall behind you over, say, 30 people in theater seats. Small details like that matter IMO.

 

[[icon]]

What current law if enforced would have prevented this guy from having a gun?

Can't say. I don't have enough knowledge of his last psych evaluation or his background to speak with any authority on the topic. Neither do you, I imagine.

I can also say that no feasible law would be passed removing the right of retired law enforcement from carrying... so anything you could propose that would EVER have a chance of becoming law (let alone being enforceable) would have prevented this guy from having a gun either.

 

[Clifford]

So none of us believe in some magical fairy land where guns don't exist and no one gets shot. At least I don't. What I would like to see is some ####### reality injected into the national conversation about who we really are as a populace and how we act. And one thing we are not, as a whole, is rational, thoughtful, reasonable and smart.

What is the reality you want injected? (I'm serious - I'd like to hear it. I might even agree with it).

That owning gun needs to be a privilege achieved by proving you are mentally stable, have a reasonable POV when it comes to conflict resolution, and are not only technically capable of safely using a firearm and safely storing a firearm, but that you aren't of a mental makeup where an argument with a stranger in a theater is going to make you snap and kill someone.

I'm not saying the tests will be perfect, but they would at least be a start.

Making it a privilege that is achieved by demonstrating basic mental and physical competency for the act intended (gun ownership), just like we do with a license to drive a car might start weeding out people who want guns for the wrong reasons and are more prone to use them for the wrong reasons. This would prevent us from the idiotic laws like the one in Minnesota that allows concealed carry permits for the blind.

So yes I am advocating either making major changes to or repealing the second amendment and replacing it with a system much like our driver license system.

ETA: Basically everything icon has put himself through voluntarily needs to be mandatory prior to owning a gun, concealed carry or not. Plus mental screening.

 

[[icon]]

My logic is...if you aren't willing to use it as a means of defense, it's pointless to have it. It becomes a danger the carrier introduces. The catch 22 here is it's really hard to know if you're willing to use it until you're put in the situation. I can't imagine a scenario I'd put myself in that would require me to take the life of another individual. WIth that said, I know such scenarios exist somewhere. I'm at a point right now where I believe that such a scenario is so unlikely that carrying in case it happens doesn't make sense.

Oh I agree 1000%. The decision to carry is a personal one that anyone should take pretty ####### seriously as it opens you up to tremendous physical and legal risk. Despite my cavalier comments when shticking it up, this is not a decision I took lightly. The training and range time is part of a promise to myself that If I WAS going to make that decision, I was going to do so as responsibly as possible. If Everyone who carried did that, I think we'd be much better off.

Part of my issue with legislation is that it's pretty much unenforceable. Making laws against guns might limit people like myself from carrying, but it's not going to stop the mentally ill, or those who mean to do harm. In fact, I'd argue it may embolden them (see high ratio of shootings at gun free zones). I do recognize that is my opinion and it is debatable, and I'm fine with that. However I certainly can get behind a moderate tightening of the leash (more training required, more psych checks and BETTER enforcement of existing ones) for gun ownership and carry permits. Attempts to simply wipe them off the face of the US are foolhardy at best IMO.

 

[glock]

Does this training involve shooting drills that train you with regards to which targets to shoot or pass on- mugger with a club vs woman with an umbrella- or does it actually work on crisis management like that which police and security personnel undertake??

Thus far, yes to the former (various targets pop up, identifying GG/BG is a factor. Yes. If by crisis management you're referring to ways to deflate a situation through body language and conversation/tone before it hits a flashpoint, while discretely getting yourself into a position that minimizes the odds of collateral damage and maximizes your chance of walking away if it hits the flashpoint, yes. Obviously the ideal goal is to talk things down to avoid #### from hitting the fan. However if SHTF, you'd prefer there be a wall behind you over, say, 30 people in theater seats. Small details like that matter IMO.

I commend you for being aware and trying to do the right thing. How many of the 6 million packing concealed do you think make the same effort??

 

[Clifford]

What current law if enforced would have prevented this guy from having a gun?

Can't say. I don't have enough knowledge of his last psych evaluation or his background to speak with any authority on the topic. Neither do you, I imagine.

I can also say that no feasible law would be passed removing the right of retired law enforcement from carrying... so anything you could propose that would EVER have a chance of becoming law (let alone being enforceable) would have prevented this guy from having a gun either.

The backdoor entitlements cops get through our legal system is another thing that needs to be changed in this country before we become an actual police state. The entire culture of law enforcement needs to be changed.

 

[[icon]]

So yes I am advocating either making major changes to or repealing the second amendment and replacing it with a system much like our driver license system.

I can't get behind repealing the second amendment as that potentially opens the floodgates for federal legislation to severely limit gun ownership. However I can get behind a REASONABLE tightening of education/training requirements and increasing psych evals (as well as better enforcement of those roadblocks).

 

[[icon]]

Does this training involve shooting drills that train you with regards to which targets to shoot or pass on- mugger with a club vs woman with an umbrella- or does it actually work on crisis management like that which police and security personnel undertake??

Thus far, yes to the former (various targets pop up, identifying GG/BG is a factor. Yes. If by crisis management you're referring to ways to deflate a situation through body language and conversation/tone before it hits a flashpoint, while discretely getting yourself into a position that minimizes the odds of collateral damage and maximizes your chance of walking away if it hits the flashpoint, yes. Obviously the ideal goal is to talk things down to avoid #### from hitting the fan. However if SHTF, you'd prefer there be a wall behind you over, say, 30 people in theater seats. Small details like that matter IMO.

I commend you for being aware and trying to do the right thing. How many of the 6 million packing concealed do you think make the same effort??

Among my circle of friends? Very high. Among general gun-owning/carrying population... sadly not nearly high enough.

 

[glock]

So none of us believe in some magical fairy land where guns don't exist and no one gets shot. At least I don't. What I would like to see is some ####### reality injected into the national conversation about who we really are as a populace and how we act. And one thing we are not, as a whole, is rational, thoughtful, reasonable and smart.

What is the reality you want injected? (I'm serious - I'd like to hear it. I might even agree with it).

That owning gun needs to be a privilege achieved by proving you are mentally stable, have a reasonable POV when it comes to conflict resolution, and are not only technically capable of safely using a firearm and safely storing a firearm, but that you aren't of a mental makeup where an argument with a stranger in a theater is going to make you snap and kill someone.

I'm not saying the tests will be perfect, but they would at least be a start.

Making it a privilege that is achieved by demonstrating basic mental and physical competency for the act intended (gun ownership), just like we do with a license to drive a car might start weeding out people who want guns for the wrong reasons and are more prone to use them for the wrong reasons. This would prevent us from the idiotic laws like the one in Minnesota that allows concealed carry permits for the blind.

So yes I am advocating either making major changes to or repealing the second amendment and replacing it with a system much like our driver license system.

"You're trying to take away my gunzz!!"

 

[[icon]]

The backdoor entitlements cops get through our legal system is another thing that needs to be changed in this country before we become an actual police state. The entire culture of law enforcement needs to be changed.

That's another huge fish to fry. I don't disagree some revision is in order.

BTW I wanted to add that it's nice to have an intelligent discussion about this.

 

[timschochet]

Very soon we will have our first "I read this thread and it made me decide to go out and purchase another gun! Sweet!" post.

 

[Clifford]

So yes I am advocating either making major changes to or repealing the second amendment and replacing it with a system much like our driver license system.

I can't get behind repealing the second amendment as that potentially opens the floodgates for federal legislation to severely limit gun ownership. However I can get behind a REASONABLE tightening of education/training requirements and increasing psych evals (as well as better enforcement of those roadblocks).

Well if we can have a right with reasonable qualifications for exercising that right, then I don't think it needs to be repealed.

 

[[icon]]

"You're trying to take away my gunzz!!"

You DO understand that that paranoia you're dramatizing there is actually pretty well grounded in reality. That sort of action is not without precedent.

My theory on gun ownership is: Just because a few ######s #### their pants, we all shouldn't have to wear diapers.

 

[[icon]]

Very soon we will have our first "I read this thread and it made me decide to go out and purchase another gun! Sweet!" post.

And...there goes the intelligent discussion.

 

[Clifford]

The backdoor entitlements cops get through our legal system is another thing that needs to be changed in this country before we become an actual police state. The entire culture of law enforcement needs to be changed.

That's another huge fish to fry. I don't disagree some revision is in order.

BTW I wanted to add that it's nice to have an intelligent discussion about this.

If every gun owner took it as seriously as you did we likely wouldn't be having this discussion. All I want to do is improve our process so that we keep the guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable and violent as much as possible. I have no problem with reasonable people owning guns.

 

[jwb]

So none of us believe in some magical fairy land where guns don't exist and no one gets shot. At least I don't. What I would like to see is some ####### reality injected into the national conversation about who we really are as a populace and how we act. And one thing we are not, as a whole, is rational, thoughtful, reasonable and smart.

What is the reality you want injected? (I'm serious - I'd like to hear it. I might even agree with it).

That owning gun needs to be a privilege achieved by proving you are mentally stable, have a reasonable POV when it comes to conflict resolution, and are not only technically capable of safely using a firearm and safely storing a firearm, but that you aren't of a mental makeup where an argument with a stranger in a theater is going to make you snap and kill someone.

I'm not saying the tests will be perfect, but they would at least be a start.

Making it a privilege that is achieved by demonstrating basic mental and physical competency for the act intended (gun ownership), just like we do with a license to drive a car might start weeding out people who want guns for the wrong reasons and are more prone to use them for the wrong reasons. This would prevent us from the idiotic laws like the one in Minnesota that allows concealed carry permits for the blind.

So yes I am advocating either making major changes to or repealing the second amendment and replacing it with a system much like our driver license system.

ETA: Basically everything icon has put himself through voluntarily needs to be mandatory prior to owning a gun, concealed carry or not. Plus mental screening.

I'm a CC guy, I like guns, I carry, and I'm all for that.

I live in NY - it takes a long time to get your CC permit. I'm in favor of our system nationwide. People getting guns in 20 minutes is ridiculous. Takes (roughly) 20 weeks here.

 

[spreagle]

Years later, a 1979 evaluation cited problems with his temperament. "His demeanor is generally very professional. He has, however, occasionally allowed his temper to detrimentally affect his manner of dealing with his supervisors," the evaluation states.

After his retirement, Reeves served as director of security for Busch Gardens Tampa until 2005, said spokesman Travis Claytor, who would not comment on why Reeves' employment came to an end.

A hunter who has held licenses in Georgia and Ohio, Reeves moved in 2005 to Brooksville, Florida -- in Hernando County, adjacent to the county where the theater is located -- and WFLA reports he served as president of the county Crime Stoppers program from 2006 to 2007.

With regard to his temper, I've noticed certain people seem to have instantaneous, violent, non-thinking reaction to a perceived attack, do a search on "scare prank punch" on youtube and you'll see what I mean. It's not really an anger issue, and it goes beyond a bad temper, maybe having a bad day or argument will make it more likely it will happen. Some small fright sets off a violent response and they usually attack the head. Perhaps the popcorn throwing set this guy off. Since the response is so quick as to be non-thinking these people should not own guns but I don't know how you screen them out other than through a past history of such violence.

 

[5 digit know nothing]

Very soon we will have our first "I read this thread and it made me decide to go out and purchase another gun! Sweet!" post.

That's better than "I can't wait for someone to start #### with me in a movie theater so I can throw popcorn in his face! Sweet!"

 

[glock]

Does this training involve shooting drills that train you with regards to which targets to shoot or pass on- mugger with a club vs woman with an umbrella- or does it actually work on crisis management like that which police and security personnel undertake??

Thus far, yes to the former (various targets pop up, identifying GG/BG is a factor. Yes. If by crisis management you're referring to ways to deflate a situation through body language and conversation/tone before it hits a flashpoint, while discretely getting yourself into a position that minimizes the odds of collateral damage and maximizes your chance of walking away if it hits the flashpoint, yes. Obviously the ideal goal is to talk things down to avoid #### from hitting the fan. However if SHTF, you'd prefer there be a wall behind you over, say, 30 people in theater seats. Small details like that matter IMO.

I commend you for being aware and trying to do the right thing. How many of the 6 million packing concealed do you think make the same effort??

Among my circle of friends? Very high. Among general gun-owning/carrying population... sadly not nearly high enough.

And therein lies the rub- and the need for some mandated program. If hurtling around the roads in a couple of tons of steel REQUIRES such (and not enough IMHO) then being able to tote around something that propels an ounce of steel intended to kill should as well.

 

[eoMMan]

I live in Florida. If I'm in a restaurant and armed robbers crash through the doors suddenly, I feel better knowing that several people in that restaurant eating are probably packing.

And no, I'm not suggesting that I want to sit and witness a gun fight but these good people having guns is much better than them not having guns.

 

[timschochet]

Very soon we will have our first "I read this thread and it made me decide to go out and purchase another gun! Sweet!" post.

And...there goes the intelligent discussion.

Really? That same post appears in EVERYONE of these discussions. And you're blaming me for it? Nice. I'd love to have an intelligent discussion with you about this Icon, if you'll permit it. I am not a gun "grabber". People like you have made very good arguments which have caused me to change many of my assumptions on this issue. For example I used to be in favor of banning assault weapons until it was demonstrated to me that such a term was not easily defined except as scary looking guns.

But I do not find your rationale for concealed Carey in public places to be compelling.

 

[jwb]

"You're trying to take away my gunzz!!"

You DO understand that that paranoia you're dramatizing there is actually pretty well grounded in reality. That sort of action is not without precedent.

My theory on gun ownership is: Just because a few ####### #### their pants, we all shouldn't have to wear diapers.

Part of the problem is any discussion is met with the NRA-backed warcry of "they are trying to take your guns". I totally understand the frustration of the other side.

It's why I'm not an NRA member, despite being a "gun guy". I think they are part of the problem.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

"You're trying to take away my gunzz!!"

You DO understand that that paranoia you're dramatizing there is actually pretty well grounded in reality. That sort of action is not without precedent.

My theory on gun ownership is: Just because a few ####### #### their pants, we all shouldn't have to wear diapers.

Except that it's not "a few".

Roughly one in every 4000 Americans gets shot in a calendar year, and roughly as many people are killed by gunshot as by auto accident every year.

 

[[icon]]

I'm a CC guy, I like guns, I carry, and I'm all for that.

I live in NY - it takes a long time to get your CC permit. I'm in favor of our system nationwide. People getting guns in 20 minutes is ridiculous. Takes (roughly) 20 weeks here.

CC Permit process here in TN:

• Register for class (typically 2-4 week waiting period)

• Take 8 hour class that is ~6hrs class time and ~2hrs range time.

• Written test (50 questions pertaining to threat assessment, various legal aspects, etc) [i scored 100/100]

• Shooting test (50 rounds at varying distances) [i scored 100/100]

• Leave with certificate, set appointment to be fingerprinted.

• Go to get fingerprinted (national database) then take that paperwork, plus class paperwork to DMV.

• At DMV, pay $75ish, fill out more paperwork, apply for concealed carry card.

• Card arrives 2-4 weeks later.

No psych evals, though the process takes a good month or two depending on wait times. Psych check theoretically take place during background checks when purchasing the weapon itself. However that only identifies those who've already got documented issues... and even then many slip through the cracks due to poor reporting/records.

 

[Politician Spock]

Very soon we will have our first "I read this thread and it made me decide to go out and purchase another gun! Sweet!" post.

And...there goes the intelligent discussion.

Really? That same post appears in EVERYONE of these discussions. And you're blaming me for it? Nice.I'd love to have an intelligent discussion with you about this Icon, if you'll permit it. I am not a gun "grabber". People like you have made very good arguments which have caused me to change many of my assumptions on this issue. For example I used to be in favor of banning assault weapons until it was demonstrated to me that such a term was not easily defined except as scary looking guns.

But I do not find your rationale for concealed Carey in public places to be compelling.

It's HERBIE Carey!

 

[[icon]]

Very soon we will have our first "I read this thread and it made me decide to go out and purchase another gun! Sweet!" post.

And...there goes the intelligent discussion.

Really? That same post appears in EVERYONE of these discussions. And you're blaming me for it? Nice.

Hey guys, I know I said the stupid thing, but somebody always says the stupid thing, so that doesn't make me stupid, right?

 

[timschochet]

Very soon we will have our first "I read this thread and it made me decide to go out and purchase another gun! Sweet!" post.

And...there goes the intelligent discussion.

Really? That same post appears in EVERYONE of these discussions. And you're blaming me for it? Nice.I'd love to have an intelligent discussion with you about this Icon, if you'll permit it. I am not a gun "grabber". People like you have made very good arguments which have caused me to change many of my assumptions on this issue. For example I used to be in favor of banning assault weapons until it was demonstrated to me that such a term was not easily defined except as scary looking guns.

But I do not find your rationale for concealed Carey in public places to be compelling.

It's HERBIE Carey!

Sorry I meant Stephen King's Carey. The one from the Herman Munster painting.

 

[[icon]]

"You're trying to take away my gunzz!!"

You DO understand that that paranoia you're dramatizing there is actually pretty well grounded in reality. That sort of action is not without precedent.

My theory on gun ownership is: Just because a few ####### #### their pants, we all shouldn't have to wear diapers.

Except that it's not "a few".

Roughly one in every 4000 Americans gets shot in a calendar year, and roughly as many people are killed by gunshot as by auto accident every year.

The problem is, the vast vast majority of those are people illegally obtaining and carrying weapons. Making more laws is not stopping these people from obtaining/carrying firearms.

Show me data on the 6 million law-abiding carriers in the US and lets look at some real data on what will be impacted by additional legislation.