Terrell Davis, HOF Candidate (1 Viewer)

[Mr. Retukes]

That's strange. They showed highlights of that Dallas game I mentioned before the program started, and then cut it with Shanny talking to the OC after halftime and saying "Leave the O-line in, leave the receivers in, take TD out." Made it seem like he sat with tons of time remaining. My mistake.

It's cool, the amount of time Terrell Davis sat in 1998 is like a good fish story. It gets bigger every year. All of his old teammates- Sharpe, Smith, etc- get a little bit fast and loose with the details when they're reminiscing, and it's reached the point of absolute blind unquestioned acceptance among the Broncos fan base. I've heard people claim that Terrell Davis sat out the equivalent of two full games which... the play-by-play data is right there on the internet. He didn't. Anyone can feel free to check.

That's a very, very good point.

Davis only played the equivalent of 14 games in his 2225 yard season, too, since he sat out the second halves of 4 games

if Denver was up by more than 14 points, Terrell Davis was not in the game. Period.I watched every snap of every game that season. I may be a Denver fan, but that doesn't mean I can't retain at least the semblance of objectivity regarding the Broncos.

4     10:39     1     10     DEN 28     Terrell Davis left tackle for 10 yards (tackle by Anthony Simmons and Darryl Williams)     7     28     0.81     1.47     100.04         1     10     DEN 38     Terrell Davis right guard for 10 yards (tackle by Darryl Williams)     7     28     1.47     2.13     100.04         1     10     DEN 48     Terrell Davis up the middle for 4 yards (tackle by Anthony Simmons)     7     28     2.13     2.12     100.04         2     6     SEA 48     Terrell Davis left end for 15 yards (tackle by Jay Bellamy)     7     28     2.12     3.38     100.0

 

[Mr. Retukes]

if Denver was up by more than 14 points, Terrell Davis was not in the game. Period.I watched every snap of every game that season. I may be a Denver fan, but that doesn't mean I can't retain at least the semblance of objectivity regarding the Broncos.

3     15:00     1     10     DEN 19     Terrell Davis up the middle for 2 yards (tackle by Hurvin McCormack)     17     35     0.15     -0.06     98.93         2     1     DEN 40     Terrell Davis right guard for 9 yards (tackle by Omar Stoutmire)     17     35     1.68     2.19     99.43         1     10     DEN 49     John Elway pass incomplete intended for Terrell Davis (defended by Kavika Pittman)     17     35     2.19     1.65     99.33         2     10     DEN 49     Terrell Davis left guard for 1 yard (tackle by Hurvin McCormack)     17     35     1.65     1.09     99.23     7:13     1     10     DEN 30     Terrell Davis up the middle for 3 yards (tackle by Artie Smith)     20     35     0.94     0.8     98.84     3:38     1     10     DEN 46     Terrell Davis left tackle for 6 yards (tackle by Dexter Coakley)     23     42     1.99     2.26     100.04         2     4     DAL 48     Terrell Davis left tackle for 2 yards (tackle by Randall Godfrey)     23     42     2.26     1.82     100.04         3     2     DAL 46     Terrell Davis left end for 6 yards (tackle by Darren Woodson)     23     42     1.82     2.92     100.0

4     2:48     1     10     DEN 13     Terrell Davis for 10 yards (tackle by Charles Woodson)     34     17     -0.32     0.48     0.04         1     10     DEN 23     Terrell Davis up the middle for 5 yards (tackle by James Harris)     34     17     0.48     0.61     0.0

3     11:22     1     10     DEN 21     Terrell Davis up the middle for 1 yard (tackle by Marvcus Patton)     24     7     0.34     -0.07     1.33         2     9     DEN 22     Terrell Davis right guard for 2 yards (tackle by Dana Stubblefield)     24     7     -0.07     -0.49     1.53         1     10     WAS 26     Terrell Davis up the middle for 9 yards (tackle by Derek Smith)     24     7     3.84     4.64     0.33         2     1     WAS 17     Terrell Davis left tackle for 3 yards (tackle by Marvcus Patton)     24     7     4.64     4.65     0.33     0:59     1     10     DEN 11     Terrell Davis left tackle for 2 yards (tackle by Kelvin Kinney)     31     10     -0.37     -0.63     0.14         3     1     DEN 20     Terrell Davis up the middle for 3 yards (tackle by Marvcus Patton)     31     10     -0.37     0.48     0.04         1     10     DEN 32     Terrell Davis left end for 9 yards (tackle by Darryl Pounds)     31     10     1.07     1.74     0.04         2     1     DEN 41     Terrell Davis left guard for 6 yards (tackle by Leomont Evans)     31     10     1.74     2.06     0.0

1         2     10     PHI 22     Terrell Davis left tackle for 2 yards (tackle by Hugh Douglas and Mike Zordich)     0     21     3.56     3.14     99.91         2     2     PHI 4     Terrell Davis up the middle for 3 yards (tackle by Mike Zordich)     0     21     5.6     6.97     100.01         1     1     PHI 1     Terrell Davis up the middle for 1 yard, touchdown     0     27     6.97     7     99.92     14:49     1     10     DEN 30     Terrell Davis left tackle for 3 yards (tackle by Hugh Douglas and James Willis)     0     28     0.94     0.8     100.02         2     10     DEN 46     Terrell Davis up the middle for 3 yards (tackle by Brian Dawkins). Penalty on Mark Schlereth: Offensive Holding, 10 yards     0     28     1.45     0.51     100.02         2     10     PHI 44     Terrell Davis right tackle for 12 yards (tackle by Brian Dawkins)     0     28     2.11     3.45     100.02         1     10     PHI 32     Terrell Davis up the middle for no gain (tackle by Greg Jefferson)     0     28     3.45     2.9     100.02         1     10     PHI 16     Terrell Davis right tackle for 4 yards (tackle by Hugh Douglas)     0     28     4.51     4.57     100.02         2     11     PHI 17     Terrell Davis left tackle for 5 yards (tackle by James Willis)     0     28     3.77     3.73     100.02     2:31     1     10     DEN 3     Terrell Davis left tackle for 6 yards (tackle by Brian Dawkins)     0     28     -0.38     -0.34     100.02     2:00     2     4     DEN 9     Terrell Davis right tackle for 1 yard (tackle by Greg Jefferson)     0     28     -0.34     -0.6     100.02     1:52     3     3     DEN 10     Terrell Davis left tackle for 2 yards (tackle by Hugh Douglas)     0     28     -0.6     -2.49     100.02     0:10     1     10     PHI 42     Terrell Davis up the middle for 12 yards (tackle by Matt Stevens)     2     35     2.79     1.99     100.0

3         2     10     DEN 41     Terrell Davis right tackle for 1 yard (tackle by Bryan Schwartz)     10     27     1.12     0.56     99.3

2     2:12     1     10     SDG 50     Bubby Brister pass complete to Terrell Davis for 15 yards (tackle by Terrance Shaw)     0     17     2.26     3.25     99.82     1:15     1     3     SDG 3     Terrell Davis right guard for 2 yards (tackle by Gerald Dixon and Kurt Gouveia)     0     17     6.51     5.91     99.92     0:37     2     1     SDG 1     Terrell Davis up the middle for no gain (tackle by Junior Seau)     0     17     5.91     5.17     99.93         2     10     SDG 49     Terrell Davis right end for 5 yards (tackle by Greg Jackson). Penalty on Shannon Sharpe: Offensive Holding, 10 yards (no play)     0     20     1.78     0.43     99.93     8:27     1     10     DEN 34     Terrell Davis left end for 2 yards (tackle by Norman Hand). Penalty on Tony E. Jones: Offensive Holding, 10 yards (no play)     0     27     1.2     0.54     100.03         2     11     DEN 33     Terrell Davis left tackle for -1 yards (tackle by Kurt Gouveia)     0     27     0.52     -0.3     100.03         2     1     DEN 46     Terrell Davis right tackle for -1 yards (tackle by Rodney Harrison)     0     27     2.07     1.22     100.03         1     10     DEN 49     Terrell Davis left guard for 5 yards (tackle by Rodney Harrison). Penalty on Tom Nalen: Offensive Holding, 10 yards (no play)     0     27     2.19     1.53     100.03         2     7     SDG 48     Terrell Davis left end for 11 yards     0     27     2.05     3.12     100.03         1     10     SDG 37     Terrell Davis left tackle for no gain (tackle by John Parrella)     0     27     3.12     2.57     100.03         3     15     SDG 42     Bubby Brister pass incomplete intended for Terrell Davis     0     27     1.22     0.46     100.04     8:50     1     10     DEN 20     Terrell Davis left tackle for 4 yards (tackle by Steve Tovar)     8     27     0.28     0.27     100.0

3     0:59     1     10     DEN 22     Terrell Davis for 1 yard (tackle by Chester McGlockton)     23     7     0.41     0     0.73         2     9     DEN 23     Terrell Davis for -3 yards (tackle by Derrick Thomas)     23     7     0     -1.09     1.14     13:30     1     10     DEN 20     Terrell Davis for 5 yards (tackle by Anthony Davis)     23     7     0.28     0.41     0.34         2     5     DEN 25     Terrell Davis for 6 yards (tackle by Donnie Edwards)     23     7     0.41     1     0.34         1     10     DEN 31     Terrell Davis for 6 yards (tackle by Wayne Simmons and Jerome Woods)     23     7     1     1.27     0.2

3     4:00     1     10     SDG 45     Terrell Davis right tackle for 4 yards (tackle by Junior Seau)     28     10     2.59     2.58     0.13         2     2     SDG 22     Terrell Davis right tackle for no gain (tackle by Raylee Johnson)     28     10     4.11     3.4     0.03         1     10     SDG 18     Terrell Davis up the middle for 2 yards (tackle by Norman Hand)     28     10     4.37     4.09     0.03         3     8     SDG 16     John Elway pass incomplete intended for Terrell Davis     28     10     3.3     2.38     0.14     9:40     1     10     DEN 10     Terrell Davis right end for 3 yards (tackle by Greg Jackson)     31     10     -0.38     -0.56     0.04         1     10     DEN 25     Terrell Davis up the middle for 11 yards (tackle by Greg Jackson and Charles Dimry)     31     10     0.61     1.33     0.04         1     10     DEN 36     Terrell Davis left tackle for 1 yard (tackle by Jimmy Spencer and Steve Tovar)     31     10     1.33     0.93     0.04         2     9     DEN 37     John Elway pass complete to Terrell Davis for 4 yards (tackle by Gerald Dixon)     31     10     0.93     0.76     0.04     4:55     1     15     DEN 15     Terrell Davis up the middle for 1 yard (tackle by Steve Tovar and Rodney Harrison)     31     16     -0.31     -0.94     0.04         2     14     DEN 16     Terrell Davis right end for 1 yard (tackle by Rodney Harrison)     31     16     -0.94     -1.51     0.04         2     6     SDG 40     Terrell Davis right end for 1 yard (tackle by Junior Seau)     31     16     2.65     2.08     0.0

I may be wearing Broncos goggles, but it sure beats a blindfold. At least I actually watched and remember the games in question.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

http://giphy.com/gifs/IOCXHPvn3WErm

 

[Tau837]

 

[Buffaloes]

I am pretty sure if TD played for Dallas or Pitt he would have been a 1st-ballot HOF

 

[dgreen]

 

[Buffaloes]

you guys are laughing because the Broncos didn't take TD out literally every time they were up 14 points as SSOG said.

point is TD missed a lot of time the year he posted 2k. I remember it too. TD sat out the equivalent of 2 games and he still posted 2k. And followed it up with by dominating the playoffs as well. That Bronco team had teams beat by halftime so many weeks and Mike was resting TD week in and week out. It was a dominant season. The most dominant I have ever seen by a RB. And TD is the best playoff RB to play.

He's not in the HOF because he was injured. He was dominant when he did play, but he didn't end up posting a very good, but never dominant career like Bettis (who even teammate Rod Woodson admitted doesn't deserve to be in over TD), Curtis Martin or Lynn Swann.

But yes, because TD continued to get carries all the way into the 2nd quarter of a game vs. Philly when SSOG said they benched him with a 2-TD lead.

 

[Adam Harstad]

That's a very, very good point.

Davis only played the equivalent of 14 games in his 2225 yard season, too, since he sat out the second halves of 4 games

if Denver was up by more than 14 points, Terrell Davis was not in the game. Period.I watched every snap of every game that season. I may be a Denver fan, but that doesn't mean I can't retain at least the semblance of objectivity regarding the Broncos.

4 10:39 1 10 DEN 28 Terrell Davis left tackle for 10 yards (tackle by Anthony Simmons and Darryl Williams) 7 28 0.81 1.47 100.04 1 10 DEN 38 Terrell Davis right guard for 10 yards (tackle by Darryl Williams) 7 28 1.47 2.13 100.04 1 10 DEN 48 Terrell Davis up the middle for 4 yards (tackle by Anthony Simmons) 7 28 2.13 2.12 100.04 2 6 SEA 48 Terrell Davis left end for 15 yards (tackle by Jay Bellamy) 7 28 2.12 3.38 100.0

I can think of no better evidence to reinforce the bolded than that I can admit I was wrong and re-evaluate my beliefs in the face of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Adam Harstad]

you guys are laughing because the Broncos didn't take TD out literally every time they were up 14 points as SSOG said.

point is TD missed a lot of time the year he posted 2k. I remember it too. TD sat out the equivalent of 2 games and he still posted 2k. And followed it up with by dominating the playoffs as well. That Bronco team had teams beat by halftime so many weeks and Mike was resting TD week in and week out.

They're laughing because I was wrong. Which is fair, because I was wrong. And because when someone says something that contradicts something else he said four years ago, that looks like "being unable to keep his story straight" and not, say, realizing he was wrong and changing his mind.

If you add up all the bits and pieces, TD missed the equivalent of 4, maybe 4-and-a-half quarters in 1998. It wasn't a week-in, week-out sort of thing, either- there were maybe two games where Davis sat for an extended period, (as opposed to, say, just the final drive- or even just the final half of the final drive). I think it's important to get the facts right, because that season was amazing enough without needing embellishment. And if your facts are wrong, it's too easy for those arguing to attack the details instead of dealing with the broader arguments.

Memories are funny things, and the more I check mine, the more unreliable I find it to be. Sometimes that means I realize I'm wrong about something and change my position, which can result in some funny "gotcha!" moments. If looking foolish is the price of being right, I find that's a pretty fair tradeoff.

 

[Buffaloes]

If you add up all the bits and pieces, TD missed the equivalent of 4, maybe 4-and-a-half quarters in 1998. It wasn't a week-in, week-out sort of thing, either- there were maybe two games where Davis sat for an extended period, (as opposed to, say, just the final drive- or even just the final half of the final drive). I think it's important to get the facts right, because that season was amazing enough without needing embellishment. And if your facts are wrong, it's too easy for those arguing to attack the details instead of dealing with the broader arguments.

interesting, as I remember reading it was 8 quarters. If that is wrong, my bad. But whatever the time ended up being, I think it is accepted that TD was as dominant as a RB can be that year-regular season and post season combined.

In fact, he did everything you would ask a HOF RB to do in the limited seasons he played. Aside from the usual arguments of the 2k season, the MVP, the Super Bowl MVP, the best playoff RB to play, he also holds the top 2 spots in a single-season in terms of total rushing yardage (regular season and post season combined). The Broncos won the Super Bowl both those years.

But obviously the argument comes down to the amount of years he produced. I look at it as, when TD played he was one of the best to ever play the game, which to me is what the HOF is. It's not a Bo Jackson situation where he showed flashed or showed the potential of being the best ever. TD has the hardware to back his position, but he was injured.

 

[golfguy]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

 

[thatguy]

"A Football Life" featuring TD is on NFLN at 9:00.

Can't believe they got rid of these uniforms. So stupid.

Agree. I LOVED those uniforms. Can't say I hate their current uniforms. They're just

 

[John 14:6]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

Yeah, I'd rather have the shorter careers with more MVPs and super bowl trophies over the longer careers without the hardware...

 

[Tau837]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

TD didn't dominate for 5 seasons. He dominated for 3 seasons.

Sayers dominated for 5 seasons, though. (1st team All NFL 5 times.)

 

[Bri]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

I remember a Bronco fan debate years ago with this very topic, when shifted to Coates versus Sharpe the Broncos fans changed their tune. Try it again-

I'm not going to PFR to count, supposing Coates was a beast for 5 years-does he get in over Sharpe?

 

[Koya]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

TD didn't dominate for 5 seasons. He dominated for 3 seasons.

Sayers dominated for 5 seasons, though. (1st team All NFL 5 times.)

Sayers also dominated in multiple facets while bringing a skill set that had never been seen before. Arguably the mostngiftwd pure runner in the history of the game.

additionally, his era did not provide nearly the medical care of the last 20 years. Careers were more easily curtailed by injury

 

[Tau837]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

TD didn't dominate for 5 seasons. He dominated for 3 seasons.Sayers dominated for 5 seasons, though. (1st team All NFL 5 times.)

Sayers also dominated in multiple facets while bringing a skill set that had never been seen before. Arguably the mostngiftwd pure runner in the history of the game.

additionally, his era did not provide nearly the medical care of the last 20 years. Careers were more easily curtailed by injury

 

[Slapdash]

"A Football Life" featuring TD is on NFLN at 9:00.

Can't believe they got rid of these uniforms. So stupid.

Agree. I LOVED those uniforms. Can't say I hate their current uniforms. They're just

I think both are pretty good. One of the few times a team has completely overhauled a look that well.

 

[Shutout]

Lots of nits being picked here.

The bottom line is that Terrell Davis was easily one the most dominant handful of RBs ever for about a solid three year stretch.

To me, he is easily one of the most memorable backs in the past two or three decades based on his performance on the field and isn't that what the HOF is largely about (standing out as a performer on the field)?

I hope he gets in someday. Lots of readily available highlight material to showcase.

 

[moleculo]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

I remember a Bronco fan debate years ago with this very topic, when shifted to Coates versus Sharpe the Broncos fans changed their tune. Try it again-

I'm not going to PFR to count, supposing Coates was a beast for 5 years-does he get in over Sharpe?

No, because Sharpe was a beast too. He was not simply a compiler, he was a bona fide star.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Yeah, I don't get the Coates thing. His best wasn't as good as Sharpe's best, and Sharpe was great for far longer. Not even close.

Edit: Okay, Coates' best season was better than Sharpe's best season, but Coates never scored double digits in a season (Sharpe did it twice), and Coates only had one 1,000-yard season (Sharpe had three). Coates is not even close to being on Sharpe's level all-time.

 

[Buffaloes]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

I remember a Bronco fan debate years ago with this very topic, when shifted to Coates versus Sharpe the Broncos fans changed their tune. Try it again-

I'm not going to PFR to count, supposing Coates was a beast for 5 years-does he get in over Sharpe?

If Coates had dominated to the extent of the TE equivalent of 2k yards, top 2 season in terms of most total yards for TEs, league MVP, Super Bowl MVP, and carried his team (setting records on the way) through multiple playoff runs en route to 2 Super Bowls, then yes.

 

[Bri]

Yeah, I don't get the Coates thing. His best wasn't as good as Sharpe's best, and Sharpe was great for far longer. Not even close.

Edit: Okay, Coates' best season was better than Sharpe's best season, but Coates never scored double digits in a season (Sharpe did it twice), and Coates only had one 1,000-yard season (Sharpe had three). Coates is not even close to being on Sharpe's level all-time.

Your reply was great for far longer though

 

[Bri]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

I remember a Bronco fan debate years ago with this very topic, when shifted to Coates versus Sharpe the Broncos fans changed their tune. Try it again-

I'm not going to PFR to count, supposing Coates was a beast for 5 years-does he get in over Sharpe?

If Coates had dominated to the extent of the TE equivalent of 2k yards, top 2 season in terms of most total yards for TEs, league MVP, Super Bowl MVP, and carried his team (setting records on the way) through multiple playoff runs en route to 2 Super Bowls, then yes.

List the TEs that have gotten MVP and Supe MVP here please.

96 catches for 1174 yards was outstanding for a TE pre Gonzalez and Gates

 

[Adam Harstad]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

I remember a Bronco fan debate years ago with this very topic, when shifted to Coates versus Sharpe the Broncos fans changed their tune. Try it again-

I'm not going to PFR to count, supposing Coates was a beast for 5 years-does he get in over Sharpe?

No. Coates had an amazing 5-year run. From 1994-1998, he was a five-time pro bowler, 2-time first-team AP All Pro, and had 4176 yards. Over that exact same five-year span, Sharpe had five pro bowls, 3 first-team AP All Pros, and 4703 yards.

Outside of that 5-year span, Sharpe had three pro bowls, one more first-team AP All Pro, and over 5,000 more receiving yards. Coates had zero pro bowls, zero first-team AP All Pros, and just under 1400 receiving yards. Sharpe was also first-team All Decade (Coates was 2nd-team), and he won three Super Bowls for two different franchises, including setting an individual player record for most consecutive playoff wins. And, of course, he retired with all of the relevant records for his position.

If we're making a comparison to Terrell Davis and Curtis Martin, then Shannon Sharpe was both Davis *AND* Martin.

 

[Adam Harstad]

List the TEs that have gotten MVP and Supe MVP here please.

96 catches for 1174 yards was outstanding for a TE pre Gonzalez and Gates

1. Coates had 96/1174/7 in the season where Drew Bledsoe shattered the NFL record for most pass attempts in a single season.

2. Shannon Sharpe had 87/1010/4 that same season. He later put up 80/1062/10 and 72/1107/3 years for offenses that threw more than 150 fewer passes than the '94 Pats. He also had 810 receiving yards for a team that only passed for 2800 yards total. Not like he didn't have his own share of historically great seasons.

3. This whole comparison is dumb and I'm not sure what it has to do with Terrell Davis.

 

[Bri]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

I remember a Bronco fan debate years ago with this very topic, when shifted to Coates versus Sharpe the Broncos fans changed their tune. Try it again-

I'm not going to PFR to count, supposing Coates was a beast for 5 years-does he get in over Sharpe?

No. Coates had an amazing 5-year run. From 1994-1998, he was a five-time pro bowler, 2-time first-team AP All Pro, and had 4176 yards. Over that exact same five-year span, Sharpe had five pro bowls, 3 first-team AP All Pros, and 4703 yards. (snip)

Soo for five years they shared top TE honors, Sharpe had 500 more yards, but IIRC Coates had several more TDs. For a while in FF, not scoring TDs was held against Sharpe and frustrated folks. Didn't the announcers regularly get on young Sharpe for his blocking while Coates was a fine blocker?

 

[ConnSKINS26]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

I remember a Bronco fan debate years ago with this very topic, when shifted to Coates versus Sharpe the Broncos fans changed their tune. Try it again-I'm not going to PFR to count, supposing Coates was a beast for 5 years-does he get in over Sharpe?

No. Coates had an amazing 5-year run. From 1994-1998, he was a five-time pro bowler, 2-time first-team AP All Pro, and had 4176 yards. Over that exact same five-year span, Sharpe had five pro bowls, 3 first-team AP All Pros, and 4703 yards. (snip)

Soo for five years they shared top TE honors, Sharpe had 500 more yards, but IIRC Coates had several more TDs. For a while in FF, not scoring TDs was held against Sharpe and frustrated folks. Didn't the announcers regularly get on young Sharpe for his blocking while Coates was a fine blocker?

Why are you steering the thread in this direction? It's completely off-topic.

 

[Buffaloes]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

I remember a Bronco fan debate years ago with this very topic, when shifted to Coates versus Sharpe the Broncos fans changed their tune. Try it again-

I'm not going to PFR to count, supposing Coates was a beast for 5 years-does he get in over Sharpe?

If Coates had dominated to the extent of the TE equivalent of 2k yards, top 2 season in terms of most total yards for TEs, league MVP, Super Bowl MVP, and carried his team (setting records on the way) through multiple playoff runs en route to 2 Super Bowls, then yes.

List the TEs that have gotten MVP and Supe MVP here please.

96 catches for 1174 yards was outstanding for a TE pre Gonzalez and Gates

The list is 1 less than the RBs that have done all of the bolded. That's exactly the point.

 

[Buffaloes]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

I remember a Bronco fan debate years ago with this very topic, when shifted to Coates versus Sharpe the Broncos fans changed their tune. Try it again-I'm not going to PFR to count, supposing Coates was a beast for 5 years-does he get in over Sharpe?

No. Coates had an amazing 5-year run. From 1994-1998, he was a five-time pro bowler, 2-time first-team AP All Pro, and had 4176 yards. Over that exact same five-year span, Sharpe had five pro bowls, 3 first-team AP All Pros, and 4703 yards. (snip)

Soo for five years they shared top TE honors, Sharpe had 500 more yards, but IIRC Coates had several more TDs. For a while in FF, not scoring TDs was held against Sharpe and frustrated folks. Didn't the announcers regularly get on young Sharpe for his blocking while Coates was a fine blocker?

Why are you steering the thread in this direction? It's completely off-topic.

it's on topic in the sense that Coates was really good for a short amount of time, but wasn't historically good--which TD was. which is where the Priest Holmes, Ben Coates, etal comparisons fall short.

 

[Tau837]

Basically, TD is unique. There is no other player who had as strong of a 3 year peak who did so little else in his career.

Comparing him to Sayers doesn't work because Sayers was great for 2 more years. Comparing him to players like Martin doesn't work because Martin delivered strong value to his teams for 7 more seasons than TD did. There are similar issues in comparing him to other former MVPs, Super Bowl MVPs, HOF RBs, etc.

None of the comparisons work. So it seems that the behavior of the voters so far is particularly telling.

 

[Bri]

sayers is in, and I can say I think TD was a better back then martin. martin had a longer career, but TD was gold in the playoffs. too much emphasis anymore on how long someone plays. If they play 5 seasons and dominate, they should be considered.

I remember a Bronco fan debate years ago with this very topic, when shifted to Coates versus Sharpe the Broncos fans changed their tune. Try it again-I'm not going to PFR to count, supposing Coates was a beast for 5 years-does he get in over Sharpe?

No. Coates had an amazing 5-year run. From 1994-1998, he was a five-time pro bowler, 2-time first-team AP All Pro, and had 4176 yards. Over that exact same five-year span, Sharpe had five pro bowls, 3 first-team AP All Pros, and 4703 yards. (snip)

Soo for five years they shared top TE honors, Sharpe had 500 more yards, but IIRC Coates had several more TDs. For a while in FF, not scoring TDs was held against Sharpe and frustrated folks. Didn't the announcers regularly get on young Sharpe for his blocking while Coates was a fine blocker?

Why are you steering the thread in this direction? It's completely off-topic.

Bronco fans, in general, point out the longevity of Sharpe as an obvious huge point in his favor. I don't discredit that at all.

I loved Bavaro and Coates. Bavaro has an even shorter period of success, a minimal one.

If I debate Bavaro or Coates were a better TE they say longevity of Sharpe.

If I say Martin was better RB than TD for that same longevity factor...they don't see the correlation.

They just love their Broncos, I get that. I just find it fascinating.

Above Sharpe was as good as Coates and Martin...it's fun is all.

The loved/hated Phillip Rivers, Donovan McNabb with their fans I find fascinating too. In the thread about hatred, they've got Rivers for MVP.

I remember a few during Brees' record breaking Supe run, still saying Rivers was better then. Same fans later, loathe Rivers, and now they love him.

I love the passionate fans, find them fascinating is all.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Basically, TD is unique. There is no other player who had as strong of a 3 year peak who did so little else in his career.

Comparing him to Sayers doesn't work because Sayers was great for 2 more years. Comparing him to players like Martin doesn't work because Martin delivered strong value to his teams for 7 more seasons than TD did. There are similar issues in comparing him to other former MVPs, Super Bowl MVPs, HOF RBs, etc.

None of the comparisons work. So it seems that the behavior of the voters so far is particularly telling.

Earl Campbell down? Campbell had seasons of 1981, 1791, 1532, 1517, and 1498 yards. Davis had seasons of 2225, 2037, 1848, 1484, and 1140 yards. Okay, technically that last one wasn't a "season", that's what Terrell Davis did in the playoffs for his career. In 8 games.

Kurt Warner will be another interesting comparison. Warner had a basically identical number of great seasons (3.5- 1999, 2001, 2008, and half of 2000) at a position that typically has much more longevity. Would you say that the arguments for Terrell Davis in the Hall of Fame are essentially identical to the arguments for Kurt Warner, and vice versa?

 

[Adam Harstad]

Bronco fans, in general, point out the longevity of Sharpe as an obvious huge point in his favor. I don't discredit that at all.

I loved Bavaro and Coates. Bavaro has an even shorter period of success, a minimal one.

If I debate Bavaro or Coates were a better TE they say longevity of Sharpe.

If I say Martin was better RB than TD for that same longevity factor...they don't see the correlation.

They just love their Broncos, I get that. I just find it fascinating.

Above Sharpe was as good as Coates and Martin...it's fun is all.

The loved/hated Phillip Rivers, Donovan McNabb with their fans I find fascinating too. In the thread about hatred, they've got Rivers for MVP.

I remember a few during Brees' record breaking Supe run, still saying Rivers was better then. Same fans later, loathe Rivers, and now they love him.

I love the passionate fans, find them fascinating is all.

It's a terrible analogy. At the very least, Shannon Sharpe was equally good to Ben Coates at Coates' peak (3 All Pros vs. 2 All Pros suggests Sharpe was better). In addition to being every single teeny tiny bit as good at his peak, Shannon Sharpe also devastated Coates in the longevity department, the records and history department, and the postseason success department. There is literally no argument for Coates over Sharpe. Sharpe had a better peak, a longer peak, more records, and more team success.

Davis vs. Martin is a completely different comparison. Davis' peak was substantially higher than Curtis Martin's. Martin's peak was substantially longer than Terrell Davis'.

 

[Tau837]

Basically, TD is unique. There is no other player who had as strong of a 3 year peak who did so little else in his career.

Comparing him to Sayers doesn't work because Sayers was great for 2 more years. Comparing him to players like Martin doesn't work because Martin delivered strong value to his teams for 7 more seasons than TD did. There are similar issues in comparing him to other former MVPs, Super Bowl MVPs, HOF RBs, etc.

None of the comparisons work. So it seems that the behavior of the voters so far is particularly telling.

Earl Campbell down? Campbell had seasons of 1981, 1791, 1532, 1517, and 1498 yards. Davis had seasons of 2225, 2037, 1848, 1484, and 1140 yards. Okay, technically that last one wasn't a "season", that's what Terrell Davis did in the playoffs for his career. In 8 games.

Kurt Warner will be another interesting comparison. Warner had a basically identical number of great seasons (3.5- 1999, 2001, 2008, and half of 2000) at a position that typically has much more longevity. Would you say that the arguments for Terrell Davis in the Hall of Fame are essentially identical to the arguments for Kurt Warner, and vice versa?

Campbell definitely seems to be the best comparison. I am not a Houston or Denver fan, so I think I look at that comparison objectively when I say Campbell was better, and I don't personally think it was terribly close. A few other posters made some good posts about this comparison earlier in the thread (recently).

I don't think Warner is a good comparison for multiple reasons, starting with the difference between the QB and RB positions. Also because Warner had a similarly compelling peak in St. Louis as Davis's 3 year peak in Denver... but then Warner later led Arizona to the Super Bowl. Warner had more than 3 compelling seasons, which was exactly the point of my post that you quoted.

 

[Tanner9919]

you don't get a participation ribbon for playing in the NFL.laughing at the idea that somehow TD's 3 good years were better than Curtis Martin's body of work throughout a lengthy career..

you don't go to the HOF simply because you ran for over 2k in a single season, if that was the case, Chris Johnson is headed to Canton.

Shaun Alexander had a run of 5 tremendous years, resulting in 3 pro bowls, and one all-pro nomination..I wouldn't consider him HOF material..

conversely, Frank Gore's longevity helped him go over 10k yards, and it might very well put him in the HOF..longevity has to mean something..

you can't just play 3 seasons at a high level,and go around telling everyone who'll listen,that you belong in the HOF - which is exactly what TD is doing.

he's desperate to be considered HOF material...

gotta love the 'Woulda Coulda Shoulda' Brigade..

 

[Adam Harstad]

Basically, TD is unique. There is no other player who had as strong of a 3 year peak who did so little else in his career.

Comparing him to Sayers doesn't work because Sayers was great for 2 more years. Comparing him to players like Martin doesn't work because Martin delivered strong value to his teams for 7 more seasons than TD did. There are similar issues in comparing him to other former MVPs, Super Bowl MVPs, HOF RBs, etc.

None of the comparisons work. So it seems that the behavior of the voters so far is particularly telling.

Earl Campbell down? Campbell had seasons of 1981, 1791, 1532, 1517, and 1498 yards. Davis had seasons of 2225, 2037, 1848, 1484, and 1140 yards. Okay, technically that last one wasn't a "season", that's what Terrell Davis did in the playoffs for his career. In 8 games.

Kurt Warner will be another interesting comparison. Warner had a basically identical number of great seasons (3.5- 1999, 2001, 2008, and half of 2000) at a position that typically has much more longevity. Would you say that the arguments for Terrell Davis in the Hall of Fame are essentially identical to the arguments for Kurt Warner, and vice versa?

Campbell definitely seems to be the best comparison. I am not a Houston or Denver fan, so I think I look at that comparison objectively when I say Campbell was better, and I don't personally think it was terribly close. A few other posters made some good posts about this comparison earlier in the thread (recently).

I don't think Warner is a good comparison for multiple reasons, starting with the difference between the QB and RB positions. Also because Warner had a similarly compelling peak in St. Louis as Davis's 3 year peak in Denver... but then Warner later led Arizona to the Super Bowl. Warner had more than 3 compelling seasons, which was exactly the point of my post that you quoted.

I disagree with the bolded. As I mentioned, Kurt Warner had 3.5 compelling seasons- 1999, 2001, 2008, and the half of 2000 that he played between injuries.

 

[moleculo]

you don't get a participation ribbon for playing in the NFL.laughing at the idea that somehow TD's 3 good years were better than Curtis Martin's body of work throughout a lengthy career..

you don't go to the HOF simply because you ran for over 2k in a single season, if that was the case, Chris Johnson is headed to Canton.

Shaun Alexander had a run of 5 tremendous years, resulting in 3 pro bowls, and one all-pro nomination..I wouldn't consider him HOF material..

conversely, Frank Gore's longevity helped him go over 10k yards, and it might very well put him in the HOF..longevity has to mean something..

you can't just play 3 seasons at a high level,and go around telling everyone who'll listen,that you belong in the HOF - which is exactly what TD is doing.

he's desperate to be considered HOF material...

gotta love the 'Woulda Coulda Shoulda' Brigade..

no one is claiming TD should be in the HoF purely on the basis of a 2k season, and no one is claiming 'Woulda coulda Shoulda'.

TD should be in the HoF because:

• NFL MVP
• superbowl MVP
• was the most important player on back-to-back SB champion teams
• 2nd team all 90's NFL team (behind only Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders)
• 7 straight 100 yard playoff games, averaging 5.6 Y/A against the best defenses in the league
• 3x first team all-pro

 

[Hooper31]

Still a no for me. I don't put Warner in either. That said, I don't have a problem with either of them making it. Their inclusion doesn't somehow lessen or negate the contributions of others.

Some want to deride longevity and stat-compiling like their attributes that should be discounted. Being a stat compiler isn't a pejorative thing. Its to be acknowledged and respected. Being able to survive in the NFL for an extended period of time shouldn't be scoffed at IMO.

 

[Tau837]

<p>

you don't get a participation ribbon for playing in the NFL.laughing at the idea that somehow TD's 3 good years were better than Curtis Martin's body of work throughout a lengthy career..

you don't go to the HOF simply because you ran for over 2k in a single season, if that was the case, Chris Johnson is headed to Canton.

Shaun Alexander had a run of 5 tremendous years, resulting in 3 pro bowls, and one all-pro nomination..I wouldn't consider him HOF material..

conversely, Frank Gore's longevity helped him go over 10k yards, and it might very well put him in the HOF..longevity has to mean something..

you can't just play 3 seasons at a high level,and go around telling everyone who'll listen,that you belong in the HOF - which is exactly what TD is doing.

he's desperate to be considered HOF material...

gotta love the 'Woulda Coulda Shoulda' Brigade..

no one is claiming TD should be in the HoF purely on the basis of a 2k season, and no one is claiming 'Woulda coulda Shoulda'. TD should be in the HoF because:

• NFL MVP
• superbowl MVP
• was the most important player on back-to-back SB champion teams
• 2nd team all 90's NFL team (behind only Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders)
• 7 straight 100 yard playoff games, averaging 5.6 Y/A against the best defenses in the league
• 3x first team all-pro

Elway was the most important player on both Super Bowl teams.

 

[Adam Harstad]

Elway was the most important player on both Super Bowl teams.

In 1998, Denver went 4-0 with Bubby Brister under center (plus won another game with Brister throwing nearly 2/3s of the passes).

Not to say that Brister was a better player than Elway. That would be stupid. Denver was clearly covering for the quarterback position with Elway out. It's just to say that Denver was able to effectively cover for their backup QB and still be a top team, in large part because of Terrell Davis (and Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey and Shannon Sharpe and Gary Zimmerman and the rest of the offensive cast). There was a lot of offensive talent on those teams. It's possible they could have covered for Davis' absence too using a combination of Derek Loville (career ypc: 3.5) and Howard Griffith (career ypc: 2.9). As a Broncos fan, I'm thankful we never had to find out.

It's worth pointing out that Terrell Davis had more rushing and receiving yards than Elway had passing yards in three out of seven playoff games over 1997 and 1998, (including the SB against Green Bay where Davis missed a quarter with migraines and won MVP anyway). Davis had 11 touchdowns to Elway's 8, and 1156 rushing/receiving yards to Elway's 1417 passing yards. Denver called 190 runs vs. 182 passes during those games.

This isn't to say that Elway couldn't have been the focal point of those offenses, but he wasn't, because he didn't have to be. I'm normally big on the whole "the QB is always the most important player on the field" line of thinking, but I really do believe that Terrell Davis was more integral to those offenses than Elway was.

 

[moleculo]

<p>

you don't get a participation ribbon for playing in the NFL.laughing at the idea that somehow TD's 3 good years were better than Curtis Martin's body of work throughout a lengthy career..

you don't go to the HOF simply because you ran for over 2k in a single season, if that was the case, Chris Johnson is headed to Canton.

Shaun Alexander had a run of 5 tremendous years, resulting in 3 pro bowls, and one all-pro nomination..I wouldn't consider him HOF material..

conversely, Frank Gore's longevity helped him go over 10k yards, and it might very well put him in the HOF..longevity has to mean something..

you can't just play 3 seasons at a high level,and go around telling everyone who'll listen,that you belong in the HOF - which is exactly what TD is doing.

he's desperate to be considered HOF material...

gotta love the 'Woulda Coulda Shoulda' Brigade..

no one is claiming TD should be in the HoF purely on the basis of a 2k season, and no one is claiming 'Woulda coulda Shoulda'. TD should be in the HoF because:

• NFL MVP
• superbowl MVP
• was the most important player on back-to-back SB champion teams
• 2nd team all 90's NFL team (behind only Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders)
• 7 straight 100 yard playoff games, averaging 5.6 Y/A against the best defenses in the league
• 3x first team all-pro

Elway was the most important player on both Super Bowl teams.

I'm going to disagree with you on this one.

look, Elway is my favorite player of all time. But those championship teams were champions because they could run the ball at will, against anyone. TD is the engine that made that team go.

after the 1996 debacle vs Jacksonville, TD had only 14 carries. On the "Football Life", Shanahan said that was a mistake and he vowed to make sure TD had more carries afterwards.

In 1997 and 1998 TD had only three game with less than 20 carries, and 9 games with over 30 carries. That heavy workload is why the Broncos were winning games.

 

[Tau837]

Elway was the most important player on both Super Bowl teams.

In 1998, Denver went 4-0 with Bubby Brister under center (plus won another game with Brister throwing nearly 2/3s of the passes).

Not to say that Brister was a better player than Elway. That would be stupid. Denver was clearly covering for the quarterback position with Elway out. It's just to say that Denver was able to effectively cover for their backup QB and still be a top team, in large part because of Terrell Davis (and Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey and Shannon Sharpe and Gary Zimmerman and the rest of the offensive cast). There was a lot of offensive talent on those teams. It's possible they could have covered for Davis' absence too using a combination of Derek Loville (career ypc: 3.5) and Howard Griffith (career ypc: 2.9). As a Broncos fan, I'm thankful we never had to find out.

It's worth pointing out that Terrell Davis had more rushing and receiving yards than Elway had passing yards in three out of seven playoff games over 1997 and 1998, (including the SB against Green Bay where Davis missed a quarter with migraines and won MVP anyway). Davis had 11 touchdowns to Elway's 8, and 1156 rushing/receiving yards to Elway's 1417 passing yards. Denver called 190 runs vs. 182 passes during those games.

This isn't to say that Elway couldn't have been the focal point of those offenses, but he wasn't, because he didn't have to be. I'm normally big on the whole "the QB is always the most important player on the field" line of thinking, but I really do believe that Terrell Davis was more integral to those offenses than Elway was.

In your opinion, in which scenario would Denver have been more successful, all else being equal:

1. Elway out for the entire postseason, Davis healthy.

2. Davis out for the entire postseason, Elway healthy.

I pick option 2 in both of their Super Bowl seasons. (Heck, in every season period.)

ETA: You quoted some ypc stats here. In 1997, Davis averaged 4.74 ypc, but the combination of Hebron and Loville averaged 4.68 ypc. I doubt those guys could have maintained that with Davis's workload, but I have no reason to believe Denver could not have fielded a running game that was good enough to go along with Elway-Sharpe-Smith-McCaffrey and a top 5-6 defense.

 

[Adam Harstad]

In your opinion, in which scenario would Denver have been more successful, all else being equal:

1. Elway out for the entire postseason, Davis healthy.

2. Davis out for the entire postseason, Elway healthy.

I pick option 2 in both of their Super Bowl seasons.

Postseason only? I'd pick option #1. Especially if (A) I was guaranteed that Brister wouldn't get hurt, too, and (B) "Davis healthy" means he gets all four quarters against Green Bay, (because Denver would have needed them). I don't think they would have had a shot in 1997 without Davis, whereas they'd at least have had a puncher's chance without Elway. In 1998, I don't think it would have made much difference either way- that team was a steamroller.

Denver survived a couple of outright bad games by Elway in the playoffs (1998 vs. GB, 1999 vs NYJ). They didn't have to survive any bad games from Davis.

 

[Bri]

In your opinion, in which scenario would Denver have been more successful, all else being equal:

1. Elway out for the entire postseason, Davis healthy.

2. Davis out for the entire postseason, Elway healthy.

I pick option 2 in both of their Super Bowl seasons.

Postseason only? I'd pick option #1. Especially if (A) I was guaranteed that Brister wouldn't get hurt, too, and (B) "Davis healthy" means he gets all four quarters against Green Bay, (because Denver would have needed them). I don't think they would have had a shot in 1997 without Davis, whereas they'd at least have had a puncher's chance without Elway. In 1998, I don't think it would have made much difference either way- that team was a steamroller.

Denver survived a couple of outright bad games by Elway in the playoffs (1998 vs. GB, 1999 vs NYJ). They didn't have to survive any bad games from Davis.

He excellent for four years and then was a shell of himself for 3 years, did they even make the playoffs then?

 

[Tau837]

In your opinion, in which scenario would Denver have been more successful, all else being equal:

1. Elway out for the entire postseason, Davis healthy.

2. Davis out for the entire postseason, Elway healthy.

I pick option 2 in both of their Super Bowl seasons.

Postseason only? I'd pick option #1. Especially if (A) I was guaranteed that Brister wouldn't get hurt, too, and (B) "Davis healthy" means he gets all four quarters against Green Bay, (because Denver would have needed them). I don't think they would have had a shot in 1997 without Davis, whereas they'd at least have had a puncher's chance without Elway. In 1998, I don't think it would have made much difference either way- that team was a steamroller.

Denver survived a couple of outright bad games by Elway in the playoffs (1998 vs. GB, 1999 vs NYJ). They didn't have to survive any bad games from Davis.

He excellent for four years and then was a shell of himself for 3 years, did they even make the playoffs then?

That isn't definitive because they also didn't have Elway after his first 4 years.

 

[Chaka]

Statistically impressive for a short time but the product of a system, a dominant offensive line and a team that cheated.

No HoF.

 

[Faust]

Terrell Davis waits for a Hall of Fame spot with a compelling resume

 

[Buffaloes]

product of a system

what other RBs in that system put up the same or even close to similar numbers as Davis? why didn't other teams just run the same ZBS and enjoy the same successes?

 

[sn0mm1s]

product of a system

what other RBs in that system put up the same or even close to similar numbers as Davis? why didn't other teams just run the same ZBS and enjoy the same successes?

Portis was significantly better at the same point in their careers without a HOF QB.

Portis' 1st two seasons: 29 games, 3099 rushing yards, 3777 YFS, 31 TDs, 5.5 YPC, 8 fumbles

Davis' 1st two seasons: 30 games, 2655 rushing yards, 3332 YFS, 23 TDs, 4.6 YPC, 10 fumbles

However, when you take Portis out of that system, his numbers plummet:

Portis' 1st two seasons in Wash: 31 games, 2831 rushing yards, 3282 YFS, 18 TDs, 4.1 YPC, 8 fumbles