****The 2019 Carolina Panthers Thread**** We Rhule At Losing (1 Viewer)

[JFS171]

When Shula said they don't really have quick pass plays to Benjamin in the play book you have to wonder. I mean really you are an NFL team and you don't have quick slants in the playbook for your number one receiver? Then you need a new playbook and perhaps a new O coordinator.

As crazy as this sounds... I'd love to see them bring in Lane Kiffin.  Now maybe that's a pipe dream, but there's quite a bit of smoke about Kiffin moving on from Alabama after this season.  He's high on the list for the University of Houston to be their head coach, but he's also let it be known he'd consider becoming an NFL coordinator.  I don't think he likes how things ended in the NFL, and how he was portrayed.  He's not going to get hired as a HC again, I doubt, until he proves himself as an offensive mind. 

Kiffin is known at Alabama for developing QBs and for playing to his team strengths better than anyone else.  Hired in 2014 after McCarron left, he built a high powered offense run by Blake Sims, a guy that was a RB from 2010-2013 before converting to QB in the 2014 offseason.  He featured Yeldon, Henry, and Amari Cooper -- they were loaded obviously.  In 2015, he built a high-powered offense around Jake Coker, the guy Sims beat out the year before.  They lost Yeldon and Cooper, and barely missed a beat.    This year, he built the offense around Jalen Hurts, a freshman.  Three different years, three different QBs, highly productive offenses.  Yes they've head a ton of talent elsewhere, but he still gets the most out of it... and is widely respected for the job he's done.  He mixes pro sets and spread formations, power running with bubble screens and zone reads and misdirection. 

I would LOVE to see what he would do with Cam and Benjamin and the rest of the offense.

 

[NCCommish]

As crazy as this sounds... I'd love to see them bring in Lane Kiffin.  Now maybe that's a pipe dream, but there's quite a bit of smoke about Kiffin moving on from Alabama after this season.  He's high on the list for the University of Houston to be their head coach, but he's also let it be known he'd consider becoming an NFL coordinator.  I don't think he likes how things ended in the NFL, and how he was portrayed.  He's not going to get hired as a HC again, I doubt, until he proves himself as an offensive mind. 

Kiffin is known at Alabama for developing QBs and for playing to his team strengths better than anyone else.  Hired in 2014 after McCarron left, he built a high powered offense run by Blake Sims, a guy that was a RB from 2010-2013 before converting to QB in the 2014 offseason.  He featured Yeldon, Henry, and Amari Cooper -- they were loaded obviously.  In 2015, he built a high-powered offense around Jake Coker, the guy Sims beat out the year before.  They lost Yeldon and Cooper, and barely missed a beat.    This year, he built the offense around Jalen Hurts, a freshman.  Three different years, three different QBs, highly productive offenses.  Yes they've head a ton of talent elsewhere, but he still gets the most out of it... and is widely respected for the job he's done.  He mixes pro sets and spread formations, power running with bubble screens and zone reads and misdirection. 

I would LOVE to see what he would do with Cam and Benjamin and the rest of the offense.

That would be pretty interesting. He always seemed like a quality guy as well.

 

[The Commish]

I agree part of this is on Cam.  I also agree another part of it is on Shula and Dorsey as his coaches. 

As referenced earlier, JBC worked wonders for Stafford... with mechanics, yes, but also with play calling that worked to his offensive personnel's strength and his QB's strengths.  I'm not sure what the #### Shula is calling anymore, but it surely isn't to the personnel's strengths.

See, I put this all on Cam.  He is in control of everything when it comes to his mechanics.  His progress is his to own.  If he doesn't feel like he's getting the guidance he needs, it's on him to seek that guidance.  If the guidance is being provided, it's on him to accept it and work on it.  There is no passing the buck here IMO.  Now, when it comes to play calling, I agree 100% but as far as the mechanics part, it all lays at his feet as the player IMO.

 

[stbugs]

When Shula said they don't really have quick pass plays to Benjamin in the play book you have to wonder. I mean really you are an NFL team and you don't have quick slants in the playbook for your number one receiver? Then you need a new playbook and perhaps a new O coordinator.

Geez, I don't think I ever read that. He needs to go, it's ridiculous how he isn't taking advantage of the most obvious strengths. Early in the season I remember hearing about how KB was back and he was playing awesome those first couple weeks against Denver and San Francisco. I believe the term was that he was always open even when covered. He's averaged 15 ypr, which is almost identical to Julio Jones this year. The problem is that they are different WRs. Julio has speed to burn, so he's catching the ball shorter and has that RAC ability. KB is likely getting deeper passes and doesn't have the RAC ability. I'm not saying KB is slow, but Julio ran a 4.39 to KB's 4.61. If they are averaging the same ypr that means we throw it deeper. That makes no sense. To me, KB seems like a guy who should be catching a lot more short passes than fewer longer passes. He doesn't need much separation off the line to be open based on the DB not being able to reach around and not having the radius to stop him. Same with Funchess, who I think has the speed to take quick pass plays deep. Also, KB and Funchess aren't easy to tackle for small DBs and we haven't even gotten to Olsen.

Maybe some of the issue is Cam as well. We never throw to RBs. I remember looking at NO who had been ripped by RBs catching balls and our first game was 1 reception for 4 yards and the second was 2 catches. We literally never adjust the offense and I don't think Cam cannot throw it short. I think we just don't try. If he can't actually throw it short because of mechanics, how can we not work with him to fix it? I guess I look at it as coaching. I can't imagine not being able to work with him on it and practice it. I think Shula is just so bad that he can't open the playbook to new things to attack an opponents weakness. We just hope Cam throws a dime to Ginn who's fast enough to get open or at Oakland to KB who can body out the DB even when covered. Problem is those require the OL to keep Cam clean for way longer than all other OCs demand.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I am not a Panthers fan, but as an outside, I see the OC and Cam both as problems.

Like you guys have pin pointed, the play calling is so predictable; there is no imagination in it whatsoever. 

As for Cam, it seems like he is more interested in being a star than a great QB. 

Lastly, I had no problem with Cam being benched for a series.  I know we live in a world nowadays where people hate being held accountable, but he broke a team rule and paid the price. Seems simple to me. 

 

[Jayrok]

Geez, I don't think I ever read that. He needs to go, it's ridiculous how he isn't taking advantage of the most obvious strengths. Early in the season I remember hearing about how KB was back and he was playing awesome those first couple weeks against Denver and San Francisco. I believe the term was that he was always open even when covered. He's averaged 15 ypr, which is almost identical to Julio Jones this year. The problem is that they are different WRs. Julio has speed to burn, so he's catching the ball shorter and has that RAC ability. KB is likely getting deeper passes and doesn't have the RAC ability. I'm not saying KB is slow, but Julio ran a 4.39 to KB's 4.61. If they are averaging the same ypr that means we throw it deeper. That makes no sense. To me, KB seems like a guy who should be catching a lot more short passes than fewer longer passes. He doesn't need much separation off the line to be open based on the DB not being able to reach around and not having the radius to stop him. Same with Funchess, who I think has the speed to take quick pass plays deep. Also, KB and Funchess aren't easy to tackle for small DBs and we haven't even gotten to Olsen.

Maybe some of the issue is Cam as well. We never throw to RBs. I remember looking at NO who had been ripped by RBs catching balls and our first game was 1 reception for 4 yards and the second was 2 catches. We literally never adjust the offense and I don't think Cam cannot throw it short. I think we just don't try. If he can't actually throw it short because of mechanics, how can we not work with him to fix it? I guess I look at it as coaching. I can't imagine not being able to work with him on it and practice it. I think Shula is just so bad that he can't open the playbook to new things to attack an opponents weakness. We just hope Cam throws a dime to Ginn who's fast enough to get open or at Oakland to KB who can body out the DB even when covered. Problem is those require the OL to keep Cam clean for way longer than all other OCs demand.

KB is/should be nearly unstoppable in the short flats and slants.  His big body and great hands are his best assets.  Why not exploit smaller CBs with those assets and feed KB from 15 yards and in?  

I wanted to draft KB two years ago over the other WRs precisely because of his size.  Cam has always thrown a high ball.  KB is tailor made for Cam.  Yet Shula would rather streak KB 35 yards down the field.  That's Ginn's lane.  

 

[WheelsUp]

Its not a coincidence that they are not winning and Olsen isnt being utilized at the same time.
He is a spark plug and a huge advantage, Cam isnt throwing to him and Olsen is open it seems in many replays.
Until he that make sure he gets involved, they wont win many games.

 

[Jayrok]

As crazy as this sounds... I'd love to see them bring in Lane Kiffin.  Now maybe that's a pipe dream, but there's quite a bit of smoke about Kiffin moving on from Alabama after this season.  He's high on the list for the University of Houston to be their head coach, but he's also let it be known he'd consider becoming an NFL coordinator.  I don't think he likes how things ended in the NFL, and how he was portrayed.  He's not going to get hired as a HC again, I doubt, until he proves himself as an offensive mind. 

Kiffin is known at Alabama for developing QBs and for playing to his team strengths better than anyone else.  Hired in 2014 after McCarron left, he built a high powered offense run by Blake Sims, a guy that was a RB from 2010-2013 before converting to QB in the 2014 offseason.  He featured Yeldon, Henry, and Amari Cooper -- they were loaded obviously.  In 2015, he built a high-powered offense around Jake Coker, the guy Sims beat out the year before.  They lost Yeldon and Cooper, and barely missed a beat.    This year, he built the offense around Jalen Hurts, a freshman.  Three different years, three different QBs, highly productive offenses.  Yes they've head a ton of talent elsewhere, but he still gets the most out of it... and is widely respected for the job he's done.  He mixes pro sets and spread formations, power running with bubble screens and zone reads and misdirection. 

I would LOVE to see what he would do with Cam and Benjamin and the rest of the offense.

Interesting.  I wonder what Kiffin's reaction would be to an offer.  I was thinking he was set for a HC gig in college again, like Houston.  

Outside of Kiffin, is there an OC currently in the NFL that we'd like to have?  Think they could pry Josh McDaniels away from NE?   Norv Turner out of retirement?  

 

[meanjoegreen]

Outside of Kiffin, is there an OC currently in the NFL that we'd like to have?  Think they could pry Josh McDaniels away from NE?   Norv Turner out of retirement?  

I doubt McDaniels would leave NE to take an OC with the Panthers. Why would he? He likes it with the Pats, and if were to leave before BB retires, he would leave for a HC job.

 

[meanjoegreen]

Its not a coincidence that they are not winning and Olsen isnt being utilized at the same time.
He is a spark plug and a huge advantage, Cam isnt throwing to him and Olsen is open it seems in many replays.
Until he that make sure he gets involved, they wont win many games.

Olsen is blocking more with the OL in shambles, but he still gets some targets. He has also had some bad drops this year.

 

[meanjoegreen]

But I didn't expect the team to add to it by benching our starting QB over a ####### tie. Really? I follow this team pretty closely and I can't remember anything like that ever happening before. Has Ron heard of fines? Or did he really think it was a good idea to humiliate his QB in front of a national audience? Then of course they call a play they wouldn't have run with Cam and it starts the avalanche. That was a piss poor decision on Rivera's part and I hope someone in management is making that crystal clear this morning.

With all that said Rivera is a two time Coach of the Year. He shouldn't be fired or anything but he damn well better know better going forward. There will be changes this off season. KK gambled on himself and lost. Ealy is a failed experiment. Johnson has really played well but we won't pay a ton to keep him. We need a real left tackle. 

Obviously Rivera had no idea the first play of the game would go as it would. I don't think management needs to give him a lecture. I don't fault him for trying to make a point to the team that the rules apply to everyone. You are getting paid millions to do a job, and if it is mandatory to wear a tie for that specific situation, put your tie on. Had the play not gone bad, it would just be an afterthought. Based on how the Panthers played throughout the game, they weren't going to win that game anyway.

 

[stbugs]

See, I put this all on Cam.  He is in control of everything when it comes to his mechanics.  His progress is his to own.  If he doesn't feel like he's getting the guidance he needs, it's on him to seek that guidance.  If the guidance is being provided, it's on him to accept it and work on it.  There is no passing the buck here IMO.  Now, when it comes to play calling, I agree 100% but as far as the mechanics part, it all lays at his feet as the player IMO.

Do you really think we've worked with him on it? I honestly think our coaches can't adjust or coach there way out of a paper bag at this point. I think last year was 95% player talent. Cam just had a great year and a healthy OL. That helps. After watching all the play calling issues where we blew FG chances, threw away timeouts to lose chances to get better FGs, called stupid plays killing drives or handing the D points, continue to have one of the worst special teams in the NFL with a super-explosive guy on our practice squad (of course watching similar guys tear it up for KC and Atlanta) and being conservative when they should be aggressive and vice versa, I really have very little faith in the coaching staff. 

 

[stbugs]

KB is/should be nearly unstoppable in the short flats and slants.  His big body and great hands are his best assets.  Why not exploit smaller CBs with those assets and feed KB from 15 yards and in?  

I wanted to draft KB two years ago over the other WRs precisely because of his size.  Cam has always thrown a high ball.  KB is tailor made for Cam.  Yet Shula would rather streak KB 35 yards down the field.  That's Ginn's lane.  

Shula would rather have everyone streak down the field on 2nd and 3. Remember when we sucked at the goal line against SF in the playoffs? Well, since then, I recall last year and then this preseason feeling like we could never be stopped at the goal line with Cam, Stewart, Olsen, Benjamin and Funchess, yet we get stuffed on a big 4th and 1 at Denver, don't go for a 4th and 1 at Oakland and seemed to stall many drives with those deep drops that more often turned into sacks instead of short easy routes.

Being in every single freaking game except Sunday has been the most frustrating thing of all this year. If we had turtled and really turned into a Cleveland where we were getting blown out by teams you would say we just couldn't beat, I'd say it was a talent issue. When we should have beaten Denver on the road, Oakland on the road and should have throttled KC, I feel like ####, we have a bunch of talent and crappy coaching. I don't think in any of those games I felt like wow, our coaches game planned the crap out of KC and attacked them perfectly. Instead, you watch and go, wow what an individual effort by Cam or Ginn or KB or Olsen or TD or any of the other players. When we excelled it just seemed like our guys made amazing plays. I never felt that way about a play call or timeout use.

 

[The Commish]

Do you really think we've worked with him on it? I honestly think our coaches can't adjust or coach there way out of a paper bag at this point. I think last year was 95% player talent. Cam just had a great year and a healthy OL. That helps. After watching all the play calling issues where we blew FG chances, threw away timeouts to lose chances to get better FGs, called stupid plays killing drives or handing the D points, continue to have one of the worst special teams in the NFL with a super-explosive guy on our practice squad (of course watching similar guys tear it up for KC and Atlanta) and being conservative when they should be aggressive and vice versa, I really have very little faith in the coaching staff. 

I don't know if they have or not.  It doesn't really matter unless one believes Cam is baffled by why he's inaccurate and is in a "I don't know what I don't know" sort of situation.  He knows he's inaccurate.  It's on him to get help with that part IMO.  I don't have much disagreement at all with your assessment of the coaching staff and said as much above.  They are obviously part of the problem, but mechanics is 100% on Cam to get resolved....whether that's through the existing staff or outside help, it's on him to actively seek to get better IMO.

 

[NCCommish]

Do you really think we've worked with him on it? I honestly think our coaches can't adjust or coach there way out of a paper bag at this point. I think last year was 95% player talent. Cam just had a great year and a healthy OL. That helps. After watching all the play calling issues where we blew FG chances, threw away timeouts to lose chances to get better FGs, called stupid plays killing drives or handing the D points, continue to have one of the worst special teams in the NFL with a super-explosive guy on our practice squad (of course watching similar guys tear it up for KC and Atlanta) and being conservative when they should be aggressive and vice versa, I really have very little faith in the coaching staff. 

Brady hires his own coach who he works with in offseason practices. This isn't on the team.

 

[stbugs]

The zone read has joined the wildcat as the worst plays an NFL offense can run.  No one is fooled and everyone knows where the ball is going.  

I doubt we get top 5 (but who knows at the rate?) but if we were #6 or #7, who would you target?  Assuming Garrett and Allen are gone.  CB, OT, DT, S?  What if we sign a top OT in FA?  Would you still want to draft McGlinchey that high in the 1st?  Why not someone like McDermott or R. Johnson in the 2nd?  And a play maker in the 1st?  

As to the target, here's the top guys 10/15 guys not including QBs, who I honestly haven't worried about:

S - Adams and Peppers

DE - Garrett and maybe Barnett

DT - Allen and maybe McDowell

CB - Honestly, there are a ton. I have seen Wilson, Tabor, Lattimore and Humphrey all in the top 10.

RB - Fournette and maybe Cook

OT - Robinson and maybe McGlinchey

WR - Williams

Out of those, I would just about guarantee that Allen, Garrett and 1 QB (Kizer?) are going to be top 3. Honestly, I would say that it wouldn't surprise me if 2 QBs go in top 4. This is a good year for us to have a pick in the 5/6/7 range. I don't think there is a chance that Garrett will fall to us, but Cleveland, SF, Chicago and honestly the Jets could all select a QB. The Jets are a dark horse at QB after taking Hackenberg, but what if Trubisky or Kizer drops to 5 and they realize how much more potential they have over Hackenberg. I mean, the fact that he didn't even get in the game last night instead of Petty makes me wonder if his experiment is not going well. I don't think Hackenberg/Petty is really a long term option, so the Jets may go QB. I think with 1 QB, Garrett and Allen, there are so many ways we could go. I know people say OT can bust and the OTs in this class aren't good, but I think both of the top 2 could end up being solid tackles and if they grade out to be someone we think is a Jordan Gross, I am happy with both. I think Adams and Fournette are my next two favorites again assuming they grade out as stud RB/S. They CBs look solid as well and honestly if we got the top CB in this class to pair with Bradberry, I am not sure how we could be disappointed. Honestly, there's only 1 guy (McDowell) that I wouldn't want at all.

Cleveland, SF and Jax are just too far behind us, so they are locked in to 1-3 (for our concern). 

Also, I anticipate us winning 1 more and the guys ahead of us Philly, LA (plays SF), NO (2 against TB), Arizona and Cincy (plays CLE) winning at least one more, so as long as we only win 1 at most, we are good. Arizona plays LA, so that helps us giving at least one a win. SD if we beat them does have a game against CLE, so they will likely have 6 wins at a minimum. If they beat us, our fate is sealed as a low pick as I think we only win @TB at best. It's going to be tough if the team is playing with little heart and we keep IRing players.

I know there is some hope of stringing some wins together, to gain momentum, but damn it, I want a top 5ish pick and I want to make sure Shula is done.

 

[stbugs]

Brady hires his own coach who he works with in offseason practices. This isn't on the team.

Umm, I think some of it is. If we continue to run the same #### and every play is him making a great throw, then we aren't helping him develop either. I don't care what Brady does, he's been in the league forever and has earned doing things his way. Other teams like Detroit have hired someone to help their QB, so it's not like it's all on him. I just feel like Shula just caters his offense to the fact that Cam can throw the ball anywhere on the field or make plays with his feet and we haven't done our part to turn him into a better QB. I know he was the MVP and had a great year last year, but we just kind of sat back this year and expected him to repeat that.

 

[JFS171]

KB is/should be nearly unstoppable in the short flats and slants.  His big body and great hands are his best assets.  Why not exploit smaller CBs with those assets and feed KB from 15 yards and in?  

I wanted to draft KB two years ago over the other WRs precisely because of his size.  Cam has always thrown a high ball.  KB is tailor made for Cam.  Yet Shula would rather streak KB 35 yards down the field.  That's Ginn's lane.  

Agreed with you both... I thought they were building the Hog Mollie version of a WR corps with Benjamin and Funchess and Stephen Hill.  Yeah you need someone deep to open up the underneath, but they NEVER RUN A ROUTE UNDERNEATH! 

All Benjamin and Funchess need to do, with their size, is release in front of the DB.  Slants should work ALL DAY LONG.  Run a bubble screen to those guys and let them use that size to pick up 5-7 yards.  And then, once those things are working and the safeties creep up, you let Ginn get deep.  Shula is just incompetent... no other way to explain it.

 

[stbugs]

I don't know if they have or not.  It doesn't really matter unless one believes Cam is baffled by why he's inaccurate and is in a "I don't know what I don't know" sort of situation.  He knows he's inaccurate.  It's on him to get help with that part IMO.  I don't have much disagreement at all with your assessment of the coaching staff and said as much above.  They are obviously part of the problem, but mechanics is 100% on Cam to get resolved....whether that's through the existing staff or outside help, it's on him to actively seek to get better IMO.

A player can't see his own flaws and correct them. You need an experienced coach (like JBC with Staffford) that can help him see what he can't see. I know Brady has his own coach, but again he's got someone helping him. If we feel like he's not doing enough, they we as team need to start him down that path. I honestly think that we don't do enough and it's evident to me when we continue to run #### like read option when it has gotten blown up so many freaking times this year it's ridiculous.

 

[Jayrok]

Agreed with you both... I thought they were building the Hog Mollie version of a WR corps with Benjamin and Funchess and Stephen Hill.  Yeah you need someone deep to open up the underneath, but they NEVER RUN A ROUTE UNDERNEATH! 

All Benjamin and Funchess need to do, with their size, is release in front of the DB.  Slants should work ALL DAY LONG.  Run a bubble screen to those guys and let them use that size to pick up 5-7 yards.  And then, once those things are working and the safeties creep up, you let Ginn get deep.  Shula is just incompetent... no other way to explain it.

 

[JFS171]

Do you really think we've worked with him on it? I honestly think our coaches can't adjust or coach there way out of a paper bag at this point. I think last year was 95% player talent. Cam just had a great year and a healthy OL. That helps. After watching all the play calling issues where we blew FG chances, threw away timeouts to lose chances to get better FGs, called stupid plays killing drives or handing the D points, continue to have one of the worst special teams in the NFL with a super-explosive guy on our practice squad (of course watching similar guys tear it up for KC and Atlanta) and being conservative when they should be aggressive and vice versa, I really have very little faith in the coaching staff. 

This -- so much this.  I was never the biggest Rivera fan, but I get the steadying presence at the helm being a good thing in the long run.  However, I'm afraid we're going to be chasing Marvin Lewis territory with Rivera where he's good enough to make the playoffs and never make much noise beyond.

I worry more about the OC than anything else though... never liked the Shula hire.  Never liked that he was the choice over Hugh.  Thought he was completely incompetent, and then miracle of miracles happens last year.  It's time for him to go... and I doubt we're lucky enough to have someone hire him away like with Chud.

 

[NCCommish]

Umm, I think some of it is. If we continue to run the same #### and every play is him making a great throw, then we aren't helping him develop either. I don't care what Brady does, he's been in the league forever and has earned doing things his way. Other teams like Detroit have hired someone to help their QB, so it's not like it's all on him. I just feel like Shula just caters his offense to the fact that Cam can throw the ball anywhere on the field or make plays with his feet and we haven't done our part to turn him into a better QB. I know he was the MVP and had a great year last year, but we just kind of sat back this year and expected him to repeat that.

Brady has done this since day one. He takes being great as his responsibility. And since Cam constantly admits he needs to work on his accuracy and mechanics he knows he has a problem. I get you want to trash the coaching staff and have at. But don't excuse Cam from his personal responsibility for his development.

 

[JFS171]

Brady has done this since day one. He takes being great as his responsibility. And since Cam constantly admits he needs to work on his accuracy and mechanics he knows he has a problem. I get you want to trash the coaching staff and have at. But don't excuse Cam from his personal responsibility for his development.

It's a problem for both of them... Cam is owed some blame, but the coaching staff is owned a lot too.  I think Detroit is a great blueprint here actually.  When you see your star QB starting to stall out in his development, it's time for a new voice.

 

[NCCommish]

It's a problem for both of them... Cam is owed some blame, but the coaching staff is owned a lot too.  I think Detroit is a great blueprint here actually.  When you see your star QB starting to stall out in his development, it's time for a new voice.

I don't even think it's 50/50. Luke doesn't wait for the coaching staff. He self diagnoses and then works on his weaknesses independently. And he actually improves on them. If you want to say I want to be the greatest ever then take some personal responsibility and make it happen. Money and time are not issues here for Cam.

 

[stbugs]

The funny thing that excites me about the draft is the 2nd round. OK, tangent first. Yes, I know the #### storm of a season has sucked, but I have to be optimistic about the draft and please lord give me a new good OC. I am not sure about Ron yet, but at worst give me an OC that calls plays. Heck, if they get the plays in on time we won't have to waste timeouts. That one time against Denver watching Cam and the entire huddle look at the sideline in a "can we get a ####### play, please" way was horrific. Maybe a new OC can take that whole part of it, even deciding going for it or not. OK, tangent over. Our second round pick could be in the 37-40 range. Our first last year was pick 31 (only 30 due to deflate gate). We are going to get a top 5-10 pick on top of getting a guy in the 2nd just about where our 1st pick was. It's like getting a free stud. It's been 2011/12 since we've had this high of a pick and the last two times the talent was Cam and Luke. Imagine being able to just add a guy like that onto the 2015 team just because of all of the injuries and coaching ineptitude. I am legitimately excited.

Guys in the top of the 2nd in the two mocks I check are guys like Demarcus Walker DE, Desmond King and White at CB, John Ross and a few other WRs, Ryan Ramczyk OT, Marcus Maye S, Justin Evans S, OJ Howard and Evan Engram TE and of course tons of RBs like Freeman, Kamara, Foreman and Chubb.

I know it's bad as a fan, but in the back of my mind, I'd love to finish 4-12, get pick 5 and get something like McGlinchey or Robinson/Howard/Chubb (might have to trade up a little, he could slip) or OT/Freeman or Foreman/Butt or Leggett or Fournette/Ramczyk/Butt and a new OC.

I think I am starting to come around to Fournette plus some OTs and a solid TE (pretty deep this year) and get the offense to where it should be, high scoring and consistent to take some of the pressure off the D. The D has some young guys like the CBs and even Boston who I think can improve and they can look solid like giving up 3 to Brees and crew in 3 quarters, but when the O gets 1 first down in the 4th quarter, they aren't build to withstand being out there all quarter long.

On the other side, if Fournette isn't available and we really don't think the OTs are special, let's get a DE/S/CB who we think is a stud and go RB/TE/OT in the 2nd/3rd. Again, need a new OC, but RB and TE are both deep this year, along with CB and DE. Even S seems pretty deep.

 

[NCCommish]

And I wouldn't want Norv. If you look at what has actually happened his teams peak quickly and then there is a slow but steady decline in performance under him.

 

[The Commish]

A player can't see his own flaws and correct them. You need an experienced coach (like JBC with Staffford) that can help him see what he can't see. I know Brady has his own coach, but again he's got someone helping him. If we feel like he's not doing enough, they we as team need to start him down that path. I honestly think that we don't do enough and it's evident to me when we continue to run #### like read option when it has gotten blown up so many freaking times this year it's ridiculous.

But Cam has admitted he has issues

And I'm not talking about blame, I am talking about responsibility.  There's plenty of blame to go around to all parties involved...no question about that, but the ultimate responsibility to remedy the problem lies with Cam IMO.

 

[stbugs]

I don't even think it's 50/50. Luke doesn't wait for the coaching staff. He self diagnoses and then works on his weaknesses independently. And he actually improves on them. If you want to say I want to be the greatest ever then take some personal responsibility and make it happen. Money and time are not issues here for Cam.

Listen, love Brady, but Cam's not him. He just isn't. I agree that he could take a step to better himself, but I absolutely think the coaching is doing him no favors by expanding his game. Do you really think Brady got so good just by off-season work? No chance in hell. It may have helped, but his offensive scheme also preaches accuracy and quick decision making. Has Cam ever had a chance to play in a system like that or have any plays like that. I'm sorry, but if the OC/HC are thinking that Cam just can't do something they want to do then I don't understand how you can't say they don't bear half the responsibility of A) hiring someone like Detroit did or B) telling Cam that he must work on this in the off-season and work on it with him in camp. I don't know why you hang on Brady as an example, he's one of a kind. How about JBC and Stafford? Number 1 overall pick like Cam, lots of talent, big arm and for years had Calvin to bail him out. Had great games and stats but was never elite and always made mistakes. He's having his highest rating year ever and he's got 2 more years experience than Cam. Cam had his best year ever last year, but it wasn't the same improvement Stafford made. It was just the best year the Panthers ever had, so he had the best turnover margin giving him short fields. Look at 2015, it wasn't Cam's best year in completion %, YPA or yards. It was just a huge year for TDs (a big part of that was the D and creating turnovers), which really helped his rating. Also, his INTs at 10 was only a little better than his years with 12, 12 and 13. If you look at Stafford, 2016 is his best year in rating, completion %, YPA and INT. He's had better yardage years and TDs, but overall as a passer, he cut his INTs in half of his best year and he's way more accurate.

Stafford didn't hire JBC, the Lions did and he's the OC now and working with Stafford to make him a better QB. Has Shula ever worked with Cam? Is Ken Dorsey a great QB coach? If he was why did Cam regress?

 

[stbugs]

But Cam has admitted he has issues

And I'm not talking about blame, I am talking about responsibility.  There's plenty of blame to go around to all parties involved...no question about that, but the ultimate responsibility to remedy the problem lies with Cam IMO.

"and correct them" is the key. You can be aware of your flaws, but is a hitter really going to be able to correct his swing by himself or does it help having a hitting coach work with them to correct it? I just don't think our guys have helped Cam the way JBC has helped Stafford since 2014. I think Cam is just an amazing athlete and has a rocket arm and last year the D had such a great ability to take the ball away from opponents that Cam scored so many TDs that as a pure passer he really wasn't any better (as a passer, not stat wise) than the previous couple years. That's why he took a big step back this year when the team around him played worse and he had to press more. Last year was easier.

We need to find an OC who's like JBC who will work with Cam or we need to get an OC who has coaches who can work with Cam or we need to get a new OC who will tell Cam he has to work on X, Y and Z with a personal QB coach in the off-season.

After this year, I don't think any person on this team will not want to work hard and get rid of the embarrassment of this year.

 

[Jayrok]

As to the target, here's the top guys 10/15 guys not including QBs, who I honestly haven't worried about:

S - Adams and Peppers

DE - Garrett and maybe Barnett

DT - Allen and maybe McDowell

CB - Honestly, there are a ton. I have seen Wilson, Tabor, Lattimore and Humphrey all in the top 10.

RB - Fournette and maybe Cook

OT - Robinson and maybe McGlinchey

WR - Williams

Out of those, I would just about guarantee that Allen, Garrett and 1 QB (Kizer?) are going to be top 3. Honestly, I would say that it wouldn't surprise me if 2 QBs go in top 4. This is a good year for us to have a pick in the 5/6/7 range. I don't think there is a chance that Garrett will fall to us, but Cleveland, SF, Chicago and honestly the Jets could all select a QB. The Jets are a dark horse at QB after taking Hackenberg, but what if Trubisky or Kizer drops to 5 and they realize how much more potential they have over Hackenberg. I mean, the fact that he didn't even get in the game last night instead of Petty makes me wonder if his experiment is not going well. I don't think Hackenberg/Petty is really a long term option, so the Jets may go QB. I think with 1 QB, Garrett and Allen, there are so many ways we could go. I know people say OT can bust and the OTs in this class aren't good, but I think both of the top 2 could end up being solid tackles and if they grade out to be someone we think is a Jordan Gross, I am happy with both. I think Adams and Fournette are my next two favorites again assuming they grade out as stud RB/S. They CBs look solid as well and honestly if we got the top CB in this class to pair with Bradberry, I am not sure how we could be disappointed. Honestly, there's only 1 guy (McDowell) that I wouldn't want at all.

Cleveland, SF and Jax are just too far behind us, so they are locked in to 1-3 (for our concern). 

Also, I anticipate us winning 1 more and the guys ahead of us Philly, LA (plays SF), NO (2 against TB), Arizona and Cincy (plays CLE) winning at least one more, so as long as we only win 1 at most, we are good. Arizona plays LA, so that helps us giving at least one a win. SD if we beat them does have a game against CLE, so they will likely have 6 wins at a minimum. If they beat us, our fate is sealed as a low pick as I think we only win @TB at best. It's going to be tough if the team is playing with little heart and we keep IRing players.

I know there is some hope of stringing some wins together, to gain momentum, but damn it, I want a top 5ish pick and I want to make sure Shula is done.

I do not have faith in Fournette.  I just don't get the love.  In the eye formation with a fullback as lead blocker, sure, he is a daunting runner.  In our backfield, the RB is normally a wing back with Cam in the shotgun.  Just doesn't seem to suite Fournette's running style.

If there is a hole, he can certainly sprint through it and take it to the house.  I just see more of him vs Alabama's line in the NFL.  They stuffed him every time they faced him.  And that's the type of run defense he'll face in the NFL.  And that's in the eye formation.  Handing it to him 6 yards behind the LOS, without a lead blocker, just doesn't seem to put him in a situation for success, in my opinion.  And he's had ankle problems.  I hope he's gone by the time we'd look at him.  

I like the CBs you listed and wouldn't mind seeing, say, Humphrey opposite Bradberry.  

 

[JFS171]

The funny thing that excites me about the draft is the 2nd round. OK, tangent first. Yes, I know the #### storm of a season has sucked, but I have to be optimistic about the draft and please lord give me a new good OC. I am not sure about Ron yet, but at worst give me an OC that calls plays. Heck, if they get the plays in on time we won't have to waste timeouts. That one time against Denver watching Cam and the entire huddle look at the sideline in a "can we get a ####### play, please" way was horrific. Maybe a new OC can take that whole part of it, even deciding going for it or not. OK, tangent over. Our second round pick could be in the 37-40 range. Our first last year was pick 31 (only 30 due to deflate gate). We are going to get a top 5-10 pick on top of getting a guy in the 2nd just about where our 1st pick was. It's like getting a free stud. It's been 2011/12 since we've had this high of a pick and the last two times the talent was Cam and Luke. Imagine being able to just add a guy like that onto the 2015 team just because of all of the injuries and coaching ineptitude. I am legitimately excited.

Guys in the top of the 2nd in the two mocks I check are guys like Demarcus Walker DE, Desmond King and White at CB, John Ross and a few other WRs, Ryan Ramczyk OT, Marcus Maye S, Justin Evans S, OJ Howard and Evan Engram TE and of course tons of RBs like Freeman, Kamara, Foreman and Chubb.

I know it's bad as a fan, but in the back of my mind, I'd love to finish 4-12, get pick 5 and get something like McGlinchey or Robinson/Howard/Chubb (might have to trade up a little, he could slip) or OT/Freeman or Foreman/Butt or Leggett or Fournette/Ramczyk/Butt and a new OC.

I think I am starting to come around to Fournette plus some OTs and a solid TE (pretty deep this year) and get the offense to where it should be, high scoring and consistent to take some of the pressure off the D. The D has some young guys like the CBs and even Boston who I think can improve and they can look solid like giving up 3 to Brees and crew in 3 quarters, but when the O gets 1 first down in the 4th quarter, they aren't build to withstand being out there all quarter long.

On the other side, if Fournette isn't available and we really don't think the OTs are special, let's get a DE/S/CB who we think is a stud and go RB/TE/OT in the 2nd/3rd. Again, need a new OC, but RB and TE are both deep this year, along with CB and DE. Even S seems pretty deep.

I'm excited about the draft as well... it's legitimately possible to have 5 picks in the first 100ish, given the 3rd rounder we're likely to get for Norman leaving. 

I'll flip if they draft Fournette in a draft that's utterly loaded with RB talent.  He isn't Zeke, and we don't have the offense pre-assembled like the Cowboys did.  How did Dallas get there?  By drafting OL in the first round REPEATEDLY.  It's easy to say there's not an OT worth the pick, but look at last season... Stanley and Tunsil were the prizes and supposed to be top-10 picks.  Then there was supposed to be late-1 to early-2 depth at the position.  What happened?  Stanley 6th, Jack Conklin (most had as a 2nd rounder) goes 8th, then Tunsil at13, then Taylor Decker (another late-1/early-2) at 16, then Ifedi at 31.  There's no guarantee one of those "2nd round" OTs is still available.

If they truly don't think the OT is worth the pick, then get a defender that's going to make an impact.  Unless you're getting Ed Reed in the secondary or an elite CB, it's tough for me to see a pick at DB having the same impact as a dominant pass rusher.  Garrett won't make it, but Barnett is right there.

In the 2nd, they can either address the other and look for a later gem at RB, or they can grab a guy like Chubb, who without the major injury, is probably a first rounder.  Royce Freeman also doesn't get as much love after a late season swoon, but he's basically a Stewart clone, and young, healthy Jonathan Stewart was a badass.  There are SO MANY RBs in this draft that can be impact players in the right situation... just no reason to rush the position by drafting Fournette.

I'd like to look back at the first 5 picks (our first 4 rounds) and see an OT or two, a pass rusher or two, a RB, and some secondary help.

 

[JFS171]

Also, on the OTs... just happened to glance at CBS's positional rankings, and they have McGlinchey 4th behind Robinson, Ramczyk, and FSU's Roderick Johnson. 

Sports Illustrated has Robinson tops again with Ramczyk 2nd, McGlinchey 3rd, and Taylor Moton 4th (with Johnson 5th).

Kiper at ESPN also has McGlinchey 3rd behind Robinson and Ramczyk.

I don't think getting an OT hinges on McGlinchey leaving or staying in school.

 

[The Commish]

"and correct them" is the key. You can be aware of your flaws, but is a hitter really going to be able to correct his swing by himself or does it help having a hitting coach work with them to correct it? I just don't think our guys have helped Cam the way JBC has helped Stafford since 2014. I think Cam is just an amazing athlete and has a rocket arm and last year the D had such a great ability to take the ball away from opponents that Cam scored so many TDs that as a pure passer he really wasn't any better (as a passer, not stat wise) than the previous couple years. That's why he took a big step back this year when the team around him played worse and he had to press more. Last year was easier.

We need to find an OC who's like JBC who will work with Cam or we need to get an OC who has coaches who can work with Cam or we need to get a new OC who will tell Cam he has to work on X, Y and Z with a personal QB coach in the off-season.

After this year, I don't think any person on this team will not want to work hard and get rid of the embarrassment of this year.

I don't think they have either.  That's on them just as it's on Cam that he hasn't gone and gotten help on his own.  If he wants to be the greatest, he's not going to let his coaching staff be the scapegoat for his work ethic (or lack thereof).  That's my only point.  It's not either/or as far as I can see.

 

[NCCommish]

I don't think they have either.  That's on them just as it's on Cam that he hasn't gone and gotten help on his own.  If he wants to be the greatest, he's not going to let his coaching staff be the scapegoat for his work ethic (or lack thereof).  That's my only point.  It's not either/or as far as I can see.

Yep

 

[stbugs]

I do not have faith in Fournette.  I just don't get the love.  In the eye formation with a fullback as lead blocker, sure, he is a daunting runner.  In our backfield, the RB is normally a wing back with Cam in the shotgun.  Just doesn't seem to suite Fournette's running style.

If there is a hole, he can certainly sprint through it and take it to the house.  I just see more of him vs Alabama's line in the NFL.  They stuffed him every time they faced him.  And that's the type of run defense he'll face in the NFL.  And that's in the eye formation.  Handing it to him 6 yards behind the LOS, without a lead blocker, just doesn't seem to put him in a situation for success, in my opinion.  And he's had ankle problems.  I hope he's gone by the time we'd look at him.  

I like the CBs you listed and wouldn't mind seeing, say, Humphrey opposite Bradberry.  

Sorry, but equating Alabama's front 7 to an NFL line doesn't work well at all for a couple reasons:

1. Cam Newton >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LSU QBs - In 2016, the QBs for LSU averaged 50.2 completion %.
   
2. Alabama's D is stacked. In 2016, Reed DT, Robinson DT and Ragland LB were all 2nd round picks. I looked at the draft prospects and I found in 2017 Jonathan Allen DE/DT - Should be a top 3 overall pick, Reuben Foster ILB mocked as 1st rounder, Tim Williams OLB mocked in many as 1st rounder, Ryan Anderson OLB mocked mainly in 2nd round, Eddie Jackson S (3rd/4th), Dalvin Tomlinson DT (3rd-5th, but strength is run-stuffer), Da'Shawn Hand DE (4th-6th - but he's a backup) and Rashaan Evans OLB (7th/UDFA - backup). So, in 2015/2016 games, with no QB to speak of, Fournette faced a DL with 1 top 3 pick, 2 2nd rounders, a 4th rounder and a 5th rounder with 2 1st round LBers and 2 2nd round LBers. Do you know of any NFL teams that has a top 3 pick, 2 other first rounders and 4 second rounders in their front 7? I don't and those 7 were not going against an NFL OL with an MVP at QB.
   

I watched something with Trevor Matich about Fournette declaring and he said that if you watch those games, Fournette faced a wall of defenders and that he thinks Fournette is one of the best RBs ever. After looking at who Alabama had on the front 7, it's not surprising they shut him down with the crap LSU had at QB.

I don't think Fournette should be judged on the Alabama games.

 

[Jayrok]

Sorry, but equating Alabama's front 7 to an NFL line doesn't work well at all for a couple reasons:

1. Cam Newton >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LSU QBs - In 2016, the QBs for LSU averaged 50.2 completion %.
   
2. Alabama's D is stacked. In 2016, Reed DT, Robinson DT and Ragland LB were all 2nd round picks. I looked at the draft prospects and I found in 2017 Jonathan Allen DE/DT - Should be a top 3 overall pick, Reuben Foster ILB mocked as 1st rounder, Tim Williams OLB mocked in many as 1st rounder, Ryan Anderson OLB mocked mainly in 2nd round, Eddie Jackson S (3rd/4th), Dalvin Tomlinson DT (3rd-5th, but strength is run-stuffer), Da'Shawn Hand DE (4th-6th - but he's a backup) and Rashaan Evans OLB (7th/UDFA - backup). So, in 2015/2016 games, with no QB to speak of, Fournette faced a DL with 1 top 3 pick, 2 2nd rounders, a 4th rounder and a 5th rounder with 2 1st round LBers and 2 2nd round LBers. Do you know of any NFL teams that has a top 3 pick, 2 other first rounders and 4 second rounders in their front 7? I don't and those 7 were not going against an NFL OL with an MVP at QB.
   

I watched something with Trevor Matich about Fournette declaring and he said that if you watch those games, Fournette faced a wall of defenders and that he thinks Fournette is one of the best RBs ever. After looking at who Alabama had on the front 7, it's not surprising they shut him down with the crap LSU had at QB.

I don't think Fournette should be judged on the Alabama games.

I'm not judging him solely based on Bama games.  And I'm not trying to equate their line to an NFL defensive line, as if he'd face it week in and week out.  I'm saying their line is similar to a more NFL type of defense that he'll face as opposed to the Ole Miss teams out there.  He didn't do as well against Arkansas or Florida either. Granted, he has been hampered with the injury a lot of the year.  I think he missed 5 games this year.  

I just don't think he's the right fit in Carolina.  Not saying he'll bust, either.  But I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't meet expectations with some team.  He'd be a star in Dallas.  Then again so would Gurley and a lot of other NFL backs.  

 

[JFS171]

I'm not judging him solely based on Bama games.  And I'm not trying to equate their line to an NFL defensive line, as if he'd face it week in and week out.  I'm saying their line is similar to a more NFL type of defense that he'll face as opposed to the Ole Miss teams out there.  He didn't do as well against Arkansas or Florida either. Granted, he has been hampered with the injury a lot of the year.  I think he missed 5 games this year.  

I just don't think he's the right fit in Carolina.  Not saying he'll bust, either.  But I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't meet expectations with some team.  He'd be a star in Dallas.  Then again so would Gurley and a lot of other NFL backs.  

To me, RB in the first round is a luxury pick unless it's the absolute perfect meeting of talented player and system.  Dallas had everything in place on offense -- star WR, complementary WRs, solid TE, QB, and a rock-solid, deep, dominant OL.  When ALL of that is in place, then by all means, get the RB.

Carolina isn't in that position.  The OL needs major renovation.  Fournette wouldn't have anywhere to run here either, given the current state of things.

I think the point is that I'd much, much, MUCH prefer Robinson or Ramczyk in the first with Chubb/Freeman/Foreman in the 2nd/3rd than Fournette in the first and a prayer at OT.

 

[stbugs]

I'm not judging him solely based on Bama games.  And I'm not trying to equate their line to an NFL defensive line, as if he'd face it week in and week out.  I'm saying their line is similar to a more NFL type of defense that he'll face as opposed to the Ole Miss teams out there.  He didn't do as well against Arkansas or Florida either. Granted, he has been hampered with the injury a lot of the year.  I think he missed 5 games this year.  

I just don't think he's the right fit in Carolina.  Not saying he'll bust, either.  But I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't meet expectations with some team.  He'd be a star in Dallas.  Then again so would Gurley and a lot of other NFL backs.  

He could also be Adrian Peterson and you'll be a bit remiss we didn't draft him. I also don't want to worry about his fit in Carolina based on Shula. That said, I don't see how he's so different in style to Stewart. It isn't like we run an offense with Darren Sproles as our main RB.

Maybe we don't pick him or maybe the Jets do, but I think he is better than you think. Florida shut him down this year, but you do realize he had 58-320-4TDs against Florida in 2014 and 2015. They aren't a real good example of him doing poorly, especially since he out rushed what the QBs for LSU threw for in those two wins (Florida was top 10 in 2015). He's had great games against Texas A&M (x2), Florida (x2), Notre Dame, Auburn (x2), Miss St. (x2), Wisconsin, Ole Miss and Arkansas.

Also, how did Arkansas shut him down? He only had 17 carries for 98 yards and 3 TDs with 2 receptions for 44 yards. 5.8 ypc isn't really shutting him down. It was a 38-10 win for LSU and they rested him likely since he's been banged up. Only Florida and Alabama shut him down this year and as you said, he's been hurt and he ripped Florida in both other games he played them.

 

[JFS171]

He could also be Adrian Peterson and you'll be a bit remiss we didn't draft him. I also don't want to worry about his fit in Carolina based on Shula. That said, I don't see how he's so different in style to Stewart. It isn't like we run an offense with Darren Sproles as our main RB.

Maybe we don't pick him or maybe the Jets do, but I think he is better than you think. Florida shut him down this year, but you do realize he had 58-320-4TDs against Florida in 2014 and 2015. They aren't a real good example of him doing poorly, especially since he out rushed what the QBs for LSU threw for in those two wins (Florida was top 10 in 2015). He's had great games against Texas A&M (x2), Florida (x2), Notre Dame, Auburn (x2), Miss St. (x2), Wisconsin, Ole Miss and Arkansas.

Also, how did Arkansas shut him down? He only had 17 carries for 98 yards and 3 TDs with 2 receptions for 44 yards. 5.8 ypc isn't really shutting him down. It was a 38-10 win for LSU and they rested him likely since he's been banged up. Only Florida and Alabama shut him down this year and as you said, he's been hurt and he ripped Florida in both other games he played them.

Not saying you do or don't frequent the dynasty prospect threads, but several folks share the opinion that Fournette, while a good talent, isn't a generational talent.  I don't think he's Peterson, and I'm not sure he's better than Zeke.  As blasphemous as it may sound to guys like Todd Mc#### who have Fournette as the best player in the draft class (which is ludicrous), I think a fully healthy Nick Chubb is a better player, and while they're different types of runners, I'd rather have Dalvin Cook as well.

Fournette isn't even the best RB on his own team.

 

[Jayrok]

He could also be Adrian Peterson and you'll be a bit remiss we didn't draft him. I also don't want to worry about his fit in Carolina based on Shula. That said, I don't see how he's so different in style to Stewart. It isn't like we run an offense with Darren Sproles as our main RB.

Maybe we don't pick him or maybe the Jets do, but I think he is better than you think. Florida shut him down this year, but you do realize he had 58-320-4TDs against Florida in 2014 and 2015. They aren't a real good example of him doing poorly, especially since he out rushed what the QBs for LSU threw for in those two wins (Florida was top 10 in 2015). He's had great games against Texas A&M (x2), Florida (x2), Notre Dame, Auburn (x2), Miss St. (x2), Wisconsin, Ole Miss and Arkansas.

Also, how did Arkansas shut him down? He only had 17 carries for 98 yards and 3 TDs with 2 receptions for 44 yards. 5.8 ypc isn't really shutting him down. It was a 38-10 win for LSU and they rested him likely since he's been banged up. Only Florida and Alabama shut him down this year and as you said, he's been hurt and he ripped Florida in both other games he played them.

I just don't see him as an Adrian Peterson type back.  I could certainly be wrong on him... just don't think he's the guy.  It's probably moot anyway as I don't think they'd look at him early on in the 1st.  And he won't be there in the 2nd, most likely.  

 

[Jayrok]

Not saying you do or don't frequent the dynasty prospect threads, but several folks share the opinion that Fournette, while a good talent, isn't a generational talent.  I don't think he's Peterson, and I'm not sure he's better than Zeke.  As blasphemous as it may sound to guys like Todd Mc#### who have Fournette as the best player in the draft class (which is ludicrous), I think a fully healthy Nick Chubb is a better player, and while they're different types of runners, I'd rather have Dalvin Cook as well.

Fournette isn't even the best RB on his own team.

I've said all along in this thread that I'd rather have Cook than Fournette.  I think a healthy Chubb could be a star in the NFL.  I want someone who can catch the ball and do serious damage in space, but can also run between the tackles.  Of the 3, I think the best will be Cook.  My opinion though.  

 

[JFS171]

I've said all along in this thread that I'd rather have Cook than Fournette.  I think a healthy Chubb could be a star in the NFL.  I want someone who can catch the ball and do serious damage in space, but can also run between the tackles.  Of the 3, I think the best will be Cook.  My opinion though.  

I need to see Chubb at the combine, fully healthy (and in their bowl game) -- to me it's unfair to hold this season against him when he played most of it less than a year removed from shredding his knee.  Chubb is an athletic FREAK, and I think he'll prove it at the combine.

If Cook ends up being bigger than I think he is, and/or if the added bulk doesn't cost him explosiveness, then I'm willing to entertain he'll be the best of the three.  Based on what my eyes tell me, with all three fully healthy, I think Chubb is the best talent, with Cook behind him.  I do think Cook is a slightly different style of player than Chubb and Fournette though, which those guys have 20+ lbs on him and look it too -- you'd expect different styles.

 

[NCCommish]

It has been proved time again you don't need to draft an RB in.the first round to get a good one. 

 

[stbugs]

Not saying you do or don't frequent the dynasty prospect threads, but several folks share the opinion that Fournette, while a good talent, isn't a generational talent.  I don't think he's Peterson, and I'm not sure he's better than Zeke.  As blasphemous as it may sound to guys like Todd Mc#### who have Fournette as the best player in the draft class (which is ludicrous), I think a fully healthy Nick Chubb is a better player, and while they're different types of runners, I'd rather have Dalvin Cook as well.

Fournette isn't even the best RB on his own team.

Gurley wasn't the best RB on his team too, doesn't mean he's not a good RB. I don't blame him for the cluster he was in this year. That said, with Fournette being hurt, I am not sure I agree that Guice is better than Fournette and maybe he is just a stud as well I do get that you guys don't like him as much and honestly, I am not saying I want him, but I wouldn't mind him if we like him and he grades out well. I really like Cook as well and I like Chubb, but will he be fully healthy? I saw him this year and he didn't look good at all.

I am just worried about reaching at 5-7, especially at OT. Ramczyk is certainly not worth that and it's possible no OT is, problem is that if you don't pick one, you might not have an opportunity to get another good one if the three top ones go in the mid to late 1st. RB is deep and good, no problem at all waiting on that.

We are in kind of an interesting spot because there are a bunch of different players/positions we may have available and chances are a couple of them are going to be legit studs. Hopefully, we pick the right one.

 

[stbugs]

It has been proved time again you don't need to draft an RB in.the first round to get a good one. 

You could say that about almost every position. RB is more true like LB, G, C and TE because the best guys usually never go until late in the 1st, if not the 2nd. That said, there are quite a few great 1st round RBs too, again just like all positions. I'm not against any position in the 1st, if the player has all-pro potential. I just don't want to reach for someone that fits a need and could be good, but doesn't have all-pro potential. We likely won't have as many injuries and screw ups next year and will likely have an easier schedule so it might be a while again until we have a pick this good.

 

[NCCommish]

You could say that about almost every position. RB is more true like LB, G, C and TE because the best guys usually never go until late in the 1st, if not the 2nd. That said, there are quite a few great 1st round RBs too, again just like all positions. I'm not against any position in the 1st, if the player has all-pro potential. I just don't want to reach for someone that fits a need and could be good, but doesn't have all-pro potential. We likely won't have as many injuries and screw ups next year and will likely have an easier schedule so it might be a while again until we have a pick this good.

Not really. Pretty sure amongst QBs for example there is a reason people make a big deal about anyone who was drafted after the first and is successful. In fact really any of the skill positions. I think RBs are the easiest to plug in and to replace unless you have a Peterson. And he is a rarity.  Biggest thing is can they block if you want a starter.

I just think we could even get a UDFA who could start and be successful. Wouldn't be the first. RB is just way down the list for me.

 

[Jayrok]

Nice game this week.  Great effort by the defense.  Terrible slide by Cam when he should have just got the first down, but it worked out.  Reminded me of Willie Mays Hayes when he came up short at second base on his steal attempt slide.  

KB's lack of production is a little concerning.  He tends to disappear and sometimes looks like he loses focus.  No reason not to tackle that guy during the interception.  They were lucky he was down by contact.  

Still, a good finish to the game when SD picked up some momentum in the 4th quarter.  

 

[stbugs]

We didn't drop any in the draft pick order and I think we can stick around #8 if we win 1 of 3, but if we start going on a roll, we could really eff up the draft pick. I know, momentum and all, but we could go from #7 to around 15th, which likely takes us out of the elite player pool. I know it's better to win, but we could be mathematically out of it next week if Atlanta beats SF (they will) and Minnesota wins at home against Indy (likely). There are so many 5-8/6-7 teams, some of whom could easily lose out that I really hope we don't screw up what could be our best pick since Kuechly and maybe for a few more years.

ETA: Oh, I forgot there's 2 5-7-1 teams. So, there are 7 teams within 1 loss of us that right now are behind us in the pick order. If we win 2 or 3, we are dropping a lot and I hope the team realizes that because pick 7 and 15 are a big drop off this year. I think there around 10ish really top tier guys, especially if the QB needy teams don't like the QBs at the top. 

 

[stbugs]

Nice game this week.  Great effort by the defense.  Terrible slide by Cam when he should have just got the first down, but it worked out.  Reminded me of Willie Mays Hayes when he came up short at second base on his steal attempt slide.  

KB's lack of production is a little concerning.  He tends to disappear and sometimes looks like he loses focus.  No reason not to tackle that guy during the interception.  They were lucky he was down by contact.  

Still, a good finish to the game when SD picked up some momentum in the 4th quarter.  

Defense hasn't really been that bad this year. They had 3 really bad games and 10 good to very good games. In 2 of the 3 bad games, we had a bunch of CB injuries (remember starting Sanchez and Teddy Williams against NO?) and the 3rd bad game was last week where Ron really screwed the pooch to start the game and the entire team didn't want to be there.

Honestly, the coaching, offense and STs (they've been a little better lately) have been far more inconsistent and at time awful. I'd say the D is responsible for 2 of the 7 losses (Seattle was an entire team collapse, everyone shares blame in that one) and the offense/STs/coaching bears the load in the other 5.

 

[The Commish]

What are the chances Luke plays this week?