Turkey shoots down Russian jet (1 Viewer)

[Leviathan]

Wait...forgot the "rollie".

 

[timschochet]

Once again Obama said the right things today by both defending Turkey and attempting to de-escalate the crisis. I have to say that his foreign policy has over the years, in my estimation, been near flawless. He was handed a catastrophe in the Middle East by the previous President and he has done his best to get us through crisis after crisis without excessive military commitment. To me that's great.

 

[timschochet]

You have no idea what I know.

Besides the report button, doesn't seem like much.

That's all you've got?

I'd ask you to prove me wrong, but I doubt you can. Good rollie roll you're on though, no content, all

Likewise. By all means, continue to pass yourself off as an expert on all military and geopolitical issues. It's quite entertaining.

None of us in this forum are experts, but Dr. Detroit is at least as knowledgeable as anyone here.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Soviet atrocities in Afghanistan

Russian atrocities in Chechnya

They also raped some 3 million women in Germany in WWII.

#### all of them, they are subhuman #######s. But yeah, I don't know what you know.

 

[Tau837]

Once again Obama said the right things today by both defending Turkey and attempting to de-escalate the crisis. I have to say that his foreign policy has over the years, in my estimation, been near flawless. He was handed a catastrophe in the Middle East by the previous President and he has done his best to get us through crisis after crisis without excessive military commitment. To me that's great.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

You have no idea what I know.

Besides the report button, doesn't seem like much.

That's all you've got?

I'd ask you to prove me wrong, but I doubt you can. Good rollie roll you're on though, no content, all

Likewise. By all means, continue to pass yourself off as an expert on all military and geopolitical issues. It's quite entertaining.

Go on...

If you want to have an intelligent conversation I'm willing. Doesn't seem like you can do that though.

 

[timschochet]

Soviet atrocities in Afghanistan

Russian atrocities in Chechnya

They also raped some 3 million women in Germany in WWII.

#### all of them, they are subhuman #######s. But yeah, I don't know what you know.

Regarding the bolded: that was a pretty bloody war, with no quarter given on both sides. If we ever get invaded, our population starved and murdered, our captured soldiers sent off to slave labor or die, see how we treat the country that did it when we finally get to invade them back.

The other thing regarding the rape of German women: those weren't Russians. Stalin pulled back his regular Russian troops and sent in Mongolian soldiers because he wanted the Germans to suffer. True story.

 

[Leviathan]

Soviet atrocities in Afghanistan

Russian atrocities in Chechnya

They also raped some 3 million women in Germany in WWII.

#### all of them, they are subhuman #######s. But yeah, I don't know what you know.

Perfect! Proof that you are absolutely clueless. Way to go!

 

[timschochet]

But the Russians HAVE committed plenty of atrocities. That doesn't make them subhuman. They can also be magnificent. I believe that it is in our long term interests to be allied with them, minus their current leadership.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Soviet atrocities in Afghanistan

Russian atrocities in Chechnya

They also raped some 3 million women in Germany in WWII.

#### all of them, they are subhuman #######s. But yeah, I don't know what you know.

Perfect! Proof that you are absolutely clueless. Way to go!

Again, you not being able to address a post without getting crazy seems strange. You ok over there? Need a hug?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Soviet atrocities in Afghanistan

Russian atrocities in Chechnya

They also raped some 3 million women in Germany in WWII.

#### all of them, they are subhuman #######s. But yeah, I don't know what you know.

Regarding the bolded: that was a pretty bloody war, with no quarter given on both sides. If we ever get invaded, our population starved and murdered, our captured soldiers sent off to slave labor or die, see how we treat the country that did it when we finally get to invade them back.

The other thing regarding the rape of German women: those weren't Russians. Stalin pulled back his regular Russian troops and sent in Mongolian soldiers because he wanted the Germans to suffer. True story.

Not really

 

[Leviathan]

You have no idea what I know.

Besides the report button, doesn't seem like much.

That's all you've got?

I'd ask you to prove me wrong, but I doubt you can. Good rollie roll you're on though, no content, all

Likewise. By all means, continue to pass yourself off as an expert on all military and geopolitical issues. It's quite entertaining.

Go on...If you want to have an intelligent conversation I'm willing. Doesn't seem like you can do that though.

How does one have an intelligent conversation with an idividual who paints with your wide brush?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

But the Russians HAVE committed plenty of atrocities. That doesn't make them subhuman.

Yes it does. Soldiers don't commit crimes at a breakneck pace like the Russians do, it's what they are known for. They are despicable.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

How does one have an intelligent conversation with an idividual who paints with your wide brush?

Oh I see, you're obviously drunk. Carry on.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Go back to the Shark Pool Leviathan, adults are trying to talk here. Come back when you're sober.

 

[Leviathan]

You have no idea what I know.

Besides the report button, doesn't seem like much.

That's all you've got?

I'd ask you to prove me wrong, but I doubt you can. Good rollie roll you're on though, no content, all

Likewise. By all means, continue to pass yourself off as an expert on all military and geopolitical issues. It's quite entertaining.

None of us in this forum are experts, but Dr. Detroit is at least as knowledgeable as anyone here.

How? Because he says so? Anecdotal or copy and paste? I can do that too!

 

[Leviathan]

Go back to the Shark Pool Leviathan, adults are trying to talk here. Come back when you're sober.

You are funny....I'll give you that.

 

[timschochet]

Soviet atrocities in Afghanistan

Russian atrocities in Chechnya

They also raped some 3 million women in Germany in WWII.

#### all of them, they are subhuman #######s. But yeah, I don't know what you know.

Regarding the bolded: that was a pretty bloody war, with no quarter given on both sides. If we ever get invaded, our population starved and murdered, our captured soldiers sent off to slave labor or die, see how we treat the country that did it when we finally get to invade them back.

The other thing regarding the rape of German women: those weren't Russians. Stalin pulled back his regular Russian troops and sent in Mongolian soldiers because he wanted the Germans to suffer. True story.

Not really

Well, that article doesn't mention anything about the Mongolians, but I have read that in several sources over the years.

But yeah, the Soviet Union during that war committed all sorts of great crimes. The Katyn forest massacre, for example. Stalin was the greatest monster in world history. But even though modern Russia has also committed some grave acts, I don't think it's fair to group the current country in with it's history of bad acts.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

You have no idea what I know.

Besides the report button, doesn't seem like much.

That's all you've got?

I'd ask you to prove me wrong, but I doubt you can. Good rollie roll you're on though, no content, all

Likewise. By all means, continue to pass yourself off as an expert on all military and geopolitical issues. It's quite entertaining.

None of us in this forum are experts, but Dr. Detroit is at least as knowledgeable as anyone here.

How? Because he says so? Anecdotal or copy and paste? I can do that too!

You haven't refuted anything I've said though. You've done nothing but and say I'm trying to pass myself off as something. Go on, by all means, go on.Then we'll see who knows what. Again, you've contributed zero to this thread. Nothing.

 

[Leviathan]

How does one have an intelligent conversation with an idividual who paints with your wide brush?

Oh I see, you're obviously drunk. Carry on.

Try again. I'm posting on my phone. Granted, I suck at it. Full disclosure and stuff.

 

[dickey moe]

So in one respect you are happy the US isn't putting any boots on the ground but then you look and the Russians are bombing the hell out of anybody who even sneezed in Assad's direction and that doesn't seem right They are flying hundreds of missions over Syria and have taken on a big offensive, in turn the US has ceded the entire RISK board to Putin and we're in a spot where we (along with our closest 27 NATO-y friends) are bound to defend Turkey if the Russia goes to war after this. So some Russian fighter gets a little too close to the equivalent of Turkish Maine and now we are in a big cluster duck with a dude who likes to prance around topless. But even that isn't enough, is the fact that we have no idea what the hell we are doing and I, for one, have no idea who I am suppose to like and who I am bound to hate

What I know is that we hate ISIS who hate Assad who we hate too. Assad is backed by Putin who we hate and he is backing Iran who we kind of hate although not as much as before who have been funneling money to Hezbollah who we hate but are not the thorn in our side that Al Qaeda has been, who of course we hate but they are backed by the Saudis who we like (for some inexplicable reason). We hated Saddam Hussein but he kept the hated Iranians at bay but we got rid of him and that created AQ in Iraq who we hated. Al Qaeda in Iraq sort of spawned ISIS but the Mothership (Al Qaeda in Afghanistan) hates ISIS which makes us unlikely allies. The Sunnis and Shiites hate each other, the Arabs and the Persians hate each other, we are backing some freedom fighters in Syria who are probably some form of Al Qaeda or some new group of mujahideen and they will eventually hate us but for the same reason as they all hate us (see as as invaders of the ME) but we decided to like them because they hate Assad but might be indifferent to ISIS or maybe they are ISIS. We know the Turks, who we like, hate the Armenians, who we like, and the Kurds, who we like, and hate the Syrians, who we hate, but now their overplayed hand may have just forced us into a spot where we are on the brink of war with a country who we sort of hate over a country we kind of hate while we would be better off offing the people we actually hate.

Basically we hate everybody and the ones we like we should hate and the ones we hate we should hate and the ones who hate us are much more passionate about their hatred for us than our hatred for them.

This is sort of brilliant.

 

[timschochet]

You have no idea what I know.

Besides the report button, doesn't seem like much.

That's all you've got?

I'd ask you to prove me wrong, but I doubt you can. Good rollie roll you're on though, no content, all

Likewise. By all means, continue to pass yourself off as an expert on all military and geopolitical issues. It's quite entertaining.

None of us in this forum are experts, but Dr. Detroit is at least as knowledgeable as anyone here.

How? Because he says so? Anecdotal or copy and paste? I can do that too!

Seriously? Because on several occasions whenever foreign policy or defense issues have come up, Dr. Detroit has offered instructive facts and insight that are based on his personal knowledge. Often later on I have heard military experts on television offer the same knowledge and perspective hours after I learned it here. I almost always learn something new from DD. He is a great source of knowledge.

That doesn't mean one has to agree with him. I disagree somewhat with his perspective on Russia in this thread. But I ALWAYS respect his opinion.

 

[Bucky86]

leviathan is a #####

 

[flapgreen]

So in one respect you are happy the US isn't putting any boots on the ground but then you look and the Russians are bombing the hell out of anybody who even sneezed in Assad's direction and that doesn't seem right They are flying hundreds of missions over Syria and have taken on a big offensive, in turn the US has ceded the entire RISK board to Putin and we're in a spot where we (along with our closest 27 NATO-y friends) are bound to defend Turkey if the Russia goes to war after this. So some Russian fighter gets a little too close to the equivalent of Turkish Maine and now we are in a big cluster duck with a dude who likes to prance around topless. But even that isn't enough, is the fact that we have no idea what the hell we are doing and I, for one, have no idea who I am suppose to like and who I am bound to hate

What I know is that we hate ISIS who hate Assad who we hate too. Assad is backed by Putin who we hate and he is backing Iran who we kind of hate although not as much as before who have been funneling money to Hezbollah who we hate but are not the thorn in our side that Al Qaeda has been, who of course we hate but they are backed by the Saudis who we like (for some inexplicable reason). We hated Saddam Hussein but he kept the hated Iranians at bay but we got rid of him and that created AQ in Iraq who we hated. Al Qaeda in Iraq sort of spawned ISIS but the Mothership (Al Qaeda in Afghanistan) hates ISIS which makes us unlikely allies. The Sunnis and Shiites hate each other, the Arabs and the Persians hate each other, we are backing some freedom fighters in Syria who are probably some form of Al Qaeda or some new group of mujahideen and they will eventually hate us but for the same reason as they all hate us (see as as invaders of the ME) but we decided to like them because they hate Assad but might be indifferent to ISIS or maybe they are ISIS. We know the Turks, who we like, hate the Armenians, who we like, and the Kurds, who we like, and hate the Syrians, who we hate, but now their overplayed hand may have just forced us into a spot where we are on the brink of war with a country who we sort of hate over a country we kind of hate while we would be better off offing the people we actually hate.

Basically we hate everybody and the ones we like we should hate and the ones we hate we should hate and the ones who hate us are much more passionate about their hatred for us than our hatred for them.

This is sort of brilliant.

That is awesome

 

[flapgreen]

You have no idea what I know.

Besides the report button, doesn't seem like much.

That's all you've got?

I'd ask you to prove me wrong, but I doubt you can. Good rollie roll you're on though, no content, all

Likewise. By all means, continue to pass yourself off as an expert on all military and geopolitical issues. It's quite entertaining.

None of us in this forum are experts, but Dr. Detroit is at least as knowledgeable as anyone here.

How? Because he says so? Anecdotal or copy and paste? I can do that too!

Seriously? Because on several occasions whenever foreign policy or defense issues have come up, Dr. Detroit has offered instructive facts and insight that are based on his personal knowledge. Often later on I have heard military experts on television offer the same knowledge and perspective hours after I learned it here. I almost always learn something new from DD. He is a great source of knowledge. That doesn't mean one has to agree with him. I disagree somewhat with his perspective on Russia in this thread. But I ALWAYS respect his opinion.

Most definitely

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Soviet atrocities in Afghanistan

Russian atrocities in Chechnya

They also raped some 3 million women in Germany in WWII.

#### all of them, they are subhuman #######s. But yeah, I don't know what you know.

Regarding the bolded: that was a pretty bloody war, with no quarter given on both sides. If we ever get invaded, our population starved and murdered, our captured soldiers sent off to slave labor or die, see how we treat the country that did it when we finally get to invade them back. The other thing regarding the rape of German women: those weren't Russians. Stalin pulled back his regular Russian troops and sent in Mongolian soldiers because he wanted the Germans to suffer. True story.

Not really

Well, that article doesn't mention anything about the Mongolians, but I have read that in several sources over the years. But yeah, the Soviet Union during that war committed all sorts of great crimes. The Katyn forest massacre, for example. Stalin was the greatest monster in world history. But even though modern Russia has also committed some grave acts, I don't think it's fair to group the current country in with it's history of bad acts.

They are evil soldiers Tim, they have 100 years of experience in rape, murder, shady tactics, and bullying. How they held their ground in WWII in the homeland was amazing, and I'm not saying they aren't good at soldiering, they just have no soul in war.

I've met Soviet soldiers who served in Afghanistan, they weren't bad people at all. I had a lot of questions for them, they didn't have a lot of answers. Their commands made them do things people shouldn't be made to do, things humans don't do to each other. I'm all about bringing death to the enemy, but there is a code and the Russians don't care about it. It's not a broad brush, it is fact. They are consistently brutal and unwavering in their application of war. There is no honor in that, and as a soldier I simply do not respect their approach.

Blow #### up, take the fight to the enemy, never waiver. No need to gather up the village males who are of fighting age, shoot them in the head one by one, rape their women/girls, and take limbs from the male children. At our worst in Vietnam we were never even close to the Russians in brutality. It kills any faith someone has in humanity.

 

[Leviathan]

You have no idea what I know.

Besides the report button, doesn't seem like much.

That's all you've got?

I'd ask you to prove me wrong, but I doubt you can. Good rollie roll you're on though, no content, all

Likewise. By all means, continue to pass yourself off as an expert on all military and geopolitical issues. It's quite entertaining.

None of us in this forum are experts, but Dr. Detroit is at least as knowledgeable as anyone here.

How? Because he says so? Anecdotal or copy and paste? I can do that too!

Seriously? Because on several occasions whenever foreign policy or defense issues have come up, Dr. Detroit has offered instructive facts and insight that are based on his personal knowledge. Often later on I have heard military experts on television offer the same knowledge and perspective hours after I learned it here. I almost always learn something new from DD. He is a great source of knowledge. That doesn't mean one has to agree with him. I disagree somewhat with his perspective on Russia in this thread. But I ALWAYS respect his opinion.

Personal knowledge? Really? On an anonymous fantasy football board?

 

[Leviathan]

leviathan is a #####

I love you too! Wait...why are you involved in this conversation?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Personal knowledge? Really? On an anonymous fantasy football board?

I know like 30+ posters here IRL and have been posting here for 12 years. If you want to refute something specific I have to offer, by all means have at it.But you can't, can you?

 

[Leviathan]

Personal knowledge? Really? On an anonymous fantasy football board?

I know like 30+ posters here IRL and have been posting here for 12 years. If you want to refute something specific I have to offer, by all means have at it.But you can't, can you?

Again...I do not care about who you know IRL on this board. It is irrelevant. What is relevant; however, after reading your numerous posts, is the fact that you are a fraud.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Personal knowledge? Really? On an anonymous fantasy football board?

I know like 30+ posters here IRL and have been posting here for 12 years. If you want to refute something specific I have to offer, by all means have at it.But you can't, can you?

Again...I do not care about who you know IRL on this board. It is irrelevant. What is relevant; however, after reading your numerous posts, is the fact that you are a fraud.

Go on....

Tell me why I'm a fraud. This is gonna be like that time you reported me, then didn't know you reported me because you are a combination of dumb and drunk. Stick to the facts butthead, let's see where this goes.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

PMs from Leviathan:

I ####ed up. Sorry.

Thank you for your service! Sincerely. My brother and cousin served multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And then he got drunk...

 

[Drunken Poster]

Stay down Leviathan

 

[Leviathan]

PMs from Leviathan:

I ####ed up. Sorry.

Thank you for your service! Sincerely. My brother and cousin served multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And then he got drunk...

So you resort to posting PMs as a defense? Got it.Tell ya what...the Hindu Kush is a shiithole, despite your opinion. Their chai sucks ###, but I drink it to this day. ##### off.

 

[renesauz]

DD, what's your take on this?

You can't fly in sovereign airspace with military fighter jets without explicit, and confirmed approval. Same as it has always been.Russia has been warned by both the U.S and Turkey to not enter Turkish airspace. But Russia does what Russia wants to do, they are habitual line steppers.

Turkey's action seems harsh but we are talking about Russia, the same country who has invaded several neighbors recently and shot down a plane full of civilians with basically no remorse.

I say #### them, good for Turkey.

Turkey said they warned that particular jet 10 times before shooting it down

We don't know the jet was in Turkey. It landed 4 KM inside Syria.

4 km is less than 2.5 miles. Pretty sure any plane hit at a high enough altitude can glide and land more than 3 miles from where it was hit. Where it landed implies it wasn't hit very far into Turkey, if at all, but offers no proof that it was NOT in Turkish airspace when hit.

Pretty sure flying a military jet with 3 miles of a border necessitates a response when queried

 

[rascal]

Once again Obama said the right things today by both defending Turkey and attempting to de-escalate the crisis. I have to say that his foreign policy has over the years, in my estimation, been near flawless. He was handed a catastrophe in the Middle East by the previous President and he has done his best to get us through crisis after crisis without excessive military commitment. To me that's great.

Seriously? It's worse now then when he became president.

 

[rascal]

Woukd the us shoot down a military plane that flew inside our airspace?

 

[rascal]

So a Russian jet was bombing northern Syria populated by Turks, therefore likely killing some, and then crossed into Turkey. Turkey basically just told Russia to not only stop crossing into its border but stop bombing their relatives in northern syria.

What a freaking mess.

 

[Righetti]

So in one respect you are happy the US isn't putting any boots on the ground but then you look and the Russians are bombing the hell out of anybody who even sneezed in Assad's direction and that doesn't seem right They are flying hundreds of missions over Syria and have taken on a big offensive, in turn the US has ceded the entire RISK board to Putin and we're in a spot where we (along with our closest 27 NATO-y friends) are bound to defend Turkey if the Russia goes to war after this. So some Russian fighter gets a little too close to the equivalent of Turkish Maine and now we are in a big cluster duck with a dude who likes to prance around topless. But even that isn't enough, is the fact that we have no idea what the hell we are doing and I, for one, have no idea who I am suppose to like and who I am bound to hate

What I know is that we hate ISIS who hate Assad who we hate too. Assad is backed by Putin who we hate and he is backing Iran who we kind of hate although not as much as before who have been funneling money to Hezbollah who we hate but are not the thorn in our side that Al Qaeda has been, who of course we hate but they are backed by the Saudis who we like (for some inexplicable reason). We hated Saddam Hussein but he kept the hated Iranians at bay but we got rid of him and that created AQ in Iraq who we hated. Al Qaeda in Iraq sort of spawned ISIS but the Mothership (Al Qaeda in Afghanistan) hates ISIS which makes us unlikely allies. The Sunnis and Shiites hate each other, the Arabs and the Persians hate each other, we are backing some freedom fighters in Syria who are probably some form of Al Qaeda or some new group of mujahideen and they will eventually hate us but for the same reason as they all hate us (see as as invaders of the ME) but we decided to like them because they hate Assad but might be indifferent to ISIS or maybe they are ISIS. We know the Turks, who we like, hate the Armenians, who we like, and the Kurds, who we like, and hate the Syrians, who we hate, but now their overplayed hand may have just forced us into a spot where we are on the brink of war with a country who we sort of hate over a country we kind of hate while we would be better off offing the people we actually hate.

Basically we hate everybody and the ones we like we should hate and the ones we hate we should hate and the ones who hate us are much more passionate about their hatred for us than our hatred for them.

I read this and about half way through it I swear my inner brain heard Will from Good Will Hunting. Good stuff here Rags...

How about them apples

 

[Doctor Detroit]

PMs from Leviathan:

I ####ed up. Sorry.

Thank you for your service! Sincerely. My brother and cousin served multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And then he got drunk...

So you resort to posting PMs as a defense? Got it.Tell ya what...the Hindu Kush is a shiithole, despite your opinion. Their chai sucks ###, but I drink it to this day. ##### off.

Frog protection?

 

[Harry Manback]

Honestly, #### Turkey. I hope Russian demolishes them.

You do know that as a NATO ally an attack on Turkey is an attack on the US?

Do you know how well this worked in WWI?

So, see, you do realize how bad it is if Russia "demolishes" them. Not for the sake of Turkey (not much love for the Turks from me) but what it would mean to the world and us.

What would it mean?

I am starting to think that you don't know what NATO is.

You clearly do since you can articulate the problem well enough.

Oh wait...

It only took one line for him to explain it, an attack on Turkey is an attack on the US. It doesn't really matter how it worked out before, if Turkey is invaded we go to war with Russia, and so do 27 other countries.

Oh really? Even if Turkey is the aggressor article 5 applies? You sure about that?

 

[Otis]

So in one respect you are happy the US isn't putting any boots on the ground but then you look and the Russians are bombing the hell out of anybody who even sneezed in Assad's direction and that doesn't seem right They are flying hundreds of missions over Syria and have taken on a big offensive, in turn the US has ceded the entire RISK board to Putin and we're in a spot where we (along with our closest 27 NATO-y friends) are bound to defend Turkey if the Russia goes to war after this. So some Russian fighter gets a little too close to the equivalent of Turkish Maine and now we are in a big cluster duck with a dude who likes to prance around topless. But even that isn't enough, is the fact that we have no idea what the hell we are doing and I, for one, have no idea who I am suppose to like and who I am bound to hate

What I know is that we hate ISIS who hate Assad who we hate too. Assad is backed by Putin who we hate and he is backing Iran who we kind of hate although not as much as before who have been funneling money to Hezbollah who we hate but are not the thorn in our side that Al Qaeda has been, who of course we hate but they are backed by the Saudis who we like (for some inexplicable reason). We hated Saddam Hussein but he kept the hated Iranians at bay but we got rid of him and that created AQ in Iraq who we hated. Al Qaeda in Iraq sort of spawned ISIS but the Mothership (Al Qaeda in Afghanistan) hates ISIS which makes us unlikely allies. The Sunnis and Shiites hate each other, the Arabs and the Persians hate each other, we are backing some freedom fighters in Syria who are probably some form of Al Qaeda or some new group of mujahideen and they will eventually hate us but for the same reason as they all hate us (see as as invaders of the ME) but we decided to like them because they hate Assad but might be indifferent to ISIS or maybe they are ISIS. We know the Turks, who we like, hate the Armenians, who we like, and the Kurds, who we like, and hate the Syrians, who we hate, but now their overplayed hand may have just forced us into a spot where we are on the brink of war with a country who we sort of hate over a country we kind of hate while we would be better off offing the people we actually hate.

Basically we hate everybody and the ones we like we should hate and the ones we hate we should hate and the ones who hate us are much more passionate about their hatred for us than our hatred for them.

I read this and about half way through it I swear my inner brain heard Will from Good Will Hunting. Good stuff here Rags...

How about them apples

:misquote:

 

[TPW]

Turkey has been a NATO member since 1952

The Bosphorus was pretty strategic during the Cold War.

And they probably were our most crucial ally during both Iraq operations and in Afghanistan. It is by far the most strategically located NATO country and although we've had our ups and downs over the years, a staunch U.S. ally.

Turkey denied U.S. forces the use of its territory during the 2003 invasion of Iraq which severely disrupted our two-front battle plan.

This lasted a whole three weeks. They voted to not allow us in on March 1st, they voted to allow us use on March 20th. We invaded Iraq on March 19th. We could not fly combat sorties from Turkey but we were able to do airdrops and resupply.

Paratroopers were dropped into northern Iraq but nowhere near the full Army division which had been proposed. It's arguable that this action resulted a greater loss of American lives during the invasion than otherwise would have been the case by allowing the Iraqis to concentrate their forces in the south.

Who is arguing that? U.S. lost 139 troops in the invasion, and that was spread out throughout the campaign, with the majority of the deaths occuring in and around Baghdad. After Basra there was little resistance between there and Baghdad, the Air Force made sure of that.

Paratroopers were dropped in Kirkuk and they had great success working with the Kurds. The South was more critical because we wanted to shut down the port city of Basra first, then march to Baghdad from the south. Troops had supply lines coming from Turkey the whole time.

According to General Tommy Franks, April Fool, an American officer working undercover as a diplomat, was approached by an Iraqi intelligence agent. April Fool then sold to the Iraqi false "top secret" invasion plans provided by Franks' team. This decoy deception successfully misled the Iraqi military into deploying major forces in Northern and Western Iraq in anticipation of attacks by way of Turkey or Jordan, which never took place. This greatly reduced the defensive capacity in the rest of Iraq and significantly facilitated the actual attacks via Kuwait and the Persian Gulf in the southeast.

Since you don't know a lot about this or Turkish/American relations you can read this if you want. Then the insurgency began because the Bush administration thought that once we toppled Hussein, the good people of Iraq would be at peace and immediately have elections, parades, and confetti parties. Then we lost 4500 more U.S. lives, but that's for a different bed time story.

The Turks did indeed finally approve use of their territory after the invasion had already begun. So nice of them. If the intelligence operation you mentioned was strictly a ruse then and no use of the northern route was ever intended then why did the entire 4th Infantry Division and its equipment get rerouted from Turkey to Kuwait in the days leading up to the invasion? Clearly it had been there for a reason other than just a feint.

Some would even say that Turkey's failure to cooperate caused the subsequent insurgency to be worse than otherwise might have been the case.

Asked what he considered to be the greatest mistake of the war, Rumsfeld replied, "Had we been successful in getting the 4th Infantry Division to come in through Turkey in the north when our forces were coming up from the south out of Kuwait, I believe that a considerably smaller number of the Baathists and the regime elements would have escaped.

And as a result, the insurgency would have been at a lesser intensity than it is today," Rumsfeld told ABC's "This Week."

 

[[icon]]

Just checking in late, but has Leviathan posted anything of substance yet or is he just sitting over in the corner laughing to himself and pointing fingers?

I seem to recall him posting something of value in the past but it's nothing but thread####ting in here.

 

[Jayrod]

Just checking in late, but has Leviathan posted anything of substance yet or is he just sitting over in the corner laughing to himself and pointing fingers?

I seem to recall him posting something of value in the past but it's nothing but thread####ting in here.

I just reported him. Hoping they put him on a TO for a while. This thread was my go to for information on the topic until the last couple pages mucked it up.

 

[Harry Manback]

You have no idea what I know.

Besides the report button, doesn't seem like much.

That's all you've got?

I'd ask you to prove me wrong, but I doubt you can. Good rollie roll you're on though, no content, all

Likewise. By all means, continue to pass yourself off as an expert on all military and geopolitical issues. It's quite entertaining.

None of us in this forum are experts, but Dr. Detroit is at least as knowledgeable as anyone here.

How? Because he says so? Anecdotal or copy and paste? I can do that too!

But you haven't. You haven't even copied and pasted anything, something so simple and effortless, you haven't done.

Thing is, everyone knows you know absolutely nothing, despite how mysterious and debonair you want to paint yourself. If/when you copy/paste something, you're afraid it might be wrong and you'll be exposed.

You're a sad, pathetic little man.

 

[Tom Servo]

You have no idea what I know.

Besides the report button, doesn't seem like much.

That's all you've got?

I'd ask you to prove me wrong, but I doubt you can. Good rollie roll you're on though, no content, all

Likewise. By all means, continue to pass yourself off as an expert on all military and geopolitical issues. It's quite entertaining.

Egad. DD knows his stuff on security issues/military stuff. Consider yourself the pigeon in this jpeg.

 

[VA703]

a lot of fluffing going on here

 

[rascal]

So in one respect you are happy the US isn't putting any boots on the ground but then you look and the Russians are bombing the hell out of anybody who even sneezed in Assad's direction and that doesn't seem right.

They are flying hundreds of missions over Syria and have taken on a big offensive, in turn the US has ceded the entire RISK board to Putin and we're in a spot where we (along with our closest 27 NATO-y friends) are bound to defend Turkey if the Russia goes to war after this. So some Russian fighter gets a little too close to the equivalent of Turkish Maine and now we are in a big cluster duck with a dude who likes to prance around topless. But even that isn't enough, there is whole thing about us having idea what the hell we are doing and I, for one, have no idea who I am suppose to like and who I am bound to hate

What I know is that we hate ISIS who hate Assad who we hate too. Assad is backed by Putin who we hate and he is backing Iran who we kind of hate, although not as much as before. Iran has been funneling money to Hezbollah who we hate but are not the thorn in our side that Al Qaeda has been, who of course we hate. AQ are backed by the Saudis who we like (for some inexplicable reason). We hated Saddam Hussein but he kept the hated Iranians at bay but we got rid of him and that created AQ in Iraq who we hated. Al Qaeda in Iraq sort of spawned ISIS but the Mothership (Al Qaeda in Afghanistan) hates ISIS which makes us unlikely allies. The Sunnis and Shiites hate each other, the Arabs and the Persians hate each other, we are backing some freedom fighters in Syria who are probably some form of Al Qaeda or some new group of mujahideen and they will eventually hate us but for the same reason as they all hate us (see as as invaders of the ME). We decided to like them because they hate Assad but they might be indifferent to ISIS or maybe they are ISIS. We know the Turks (who we like) hate the Armenians (who we like), and hate the Kurds (who we like),and hate the Syrians (who we hate). The problem is that now their overplayed hand may have just forced us into a spot where we are on the brink of war with a country who we sort of hate over a country we kind of hate while we would be better off offing the people we actually hate.

Basically we hate everybody and the ones we like we should hate and the ones we hate we should hate and the ones who hate us are much more passionate about their hatred for us than our hatred for them.

Bravo

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Ok how about some updates?:

Surviving pilot from downed Russian jet: 'No warnings whatsoever'

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-russia-turkey-20151125-story.html

- Shorthand: Russia is going to deny any warnings were sent.

Meanwhile Turkey has released actual audio:

http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/24/audio-tuaf-warns-ruaf-su-24/

- This is old stuff for Russia, they've been flat out denying almost every single one of their actions in Donbas and Crimea, it's what they do.