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Opposing facts ignored:Fact1: He has shown signifcant improvment every year of his career, finishing his college years as the leading passing efficiency rated QB in the nation as a JR.Fact2: Rookie QBs rarely begin their careers with their best statistical years.These facts, objectively weighed, would tend to lead to a conclusion the production we are seeing now as a passer is likely closer to Young's floor than his ceiling.IMO.
Fact: LHUCKS and Bagger have gotten completely owned in this thread.Can you here that? That's the sound of them digging themselves deeper and deeper into a hole.
You must be kidding. Outside of the WR argument, all of those are verifiable.
at people who claim objectivity, then as support for their argument throw out "facts" such as
I don't care about Fact 1, Tim Couch was the bomb in college.Fact 2, I'll give you obviously, but I really don't see that as much support...I'll add it to the list.
You obviously ARE ignoring the facts opposing your point of view, just look below.
#1 - there is no fact here applicable to Young, UNLESS you ASSUME or hold the opinion that he won't become a good passer. That's not a fact, it's an opinon.#2 - so has every QB. Young has also been a good passer this year. It depends on which games you pick and choose. Overall he's been an "improving" passer this year. Using this to support your side of the argument, leans too much on your opinion than actual fact.#3 - sure, almost every QB has some scout question their ability to read and react.
#1 - So you agree, since you state it's a fact. Which thus nullifies YOUR "fact" #1 in application to VY.#2 - I'm not sure if I consider that a fact or not, but it would be an interesting study of Young's misses compared to his WRs drops. I really don't know what the results of that would be.
Ummm...both of those are facts.at people who claim objectivity, then as support for their argument throw out "facts" such as
No, look up the defiinitionYou can have objective arguments based on opinion.
Really?
...is debatable. More opinion than fact.
...is a "fact" composed of nothing more than someone else's opinion, which you fail to cite. Also, there are many scouts and analysts who love VY's mental approach to the game and his reading and reacting prowess.
The definition is in this thread.No, look up the defiinition
We'll have to agree to disagree here.
Yeah I posted it, you failed to understand itThe definition is in this thread.No, look up the defiinition
Of the facts, I will grant Fact3. Many NFL experts question VY's ability to handle the speed and complexity of the NFL. To me, the fact that people question him is verifiable. However, if I'm being objective, that isn't a fact that significantly impacts my view of his prospects. These NFL gurus are the same ones that love Jeff George, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch... The NFL groupthink loves players with measurables. Arm strength, mechanics, prototypical size. Thats why guys like Brady slip down draft boards. But I digress...I struggle with the "poor" rating for Young's passing thus far, but as a body of work, I'd call his passing so far below average. However, I also see incremental improvement. Combined, these 2 facts sort of cancel each other out, at least to see more.
The fact that Jay Cutler is ahead of both of those guys in rating should show exactly how worthless that statistic is.
No I'm pretty sure it's the other way around...but whatever.Yeah I posted it, you failed to understand itThe definition is in this thread.No, look up the defiinition
I can see "far below average" as a fair statement of fact.
ARE YOU MERRILL HOGE?I can see "far below average" as a fair statement of fact.
Unfortunately one liners, insults and unsubstantive posts are still what the shark pool is about during the season.I'll be back in February...explaining why Matt Leinart is the next great QB in the NFL.
The crux of your argument is that running QB's that don't become good passers do not become great QBs. I'll give you that. I tend to agree with the assessment. QB's need to be able to throw the ball effectively to have long term success.So, what you must be stating, based on the above ( and I'm assuming you agree with it ) is that Young can't improve his passing enough to become consistently effective. So, your facts state that he has been a poor passer this year. Arguable, but OK. Stick with it for now. Thats his starting point. Now we try to present facts as to whether he can improve or not.For your side, the only fact to this effect is a set of NFL scouts that question his ability to read and react.For the opposition side, you have the following facts:1. He is improving ( you stated this one )2. He has historically shown improvement over a 4 year period.3. Rookie QB's historically get better with experience.My conclusions from this set of facts is that Young is likely to improve as a passer.
Well, you should certainly know.
This thread is full of one liners and unsubstantive posts, but if you've been insulted I'd suggest grabbing a
and taking a deep breath. If you do choose to roll out until February, we'll look forward to speaking with you then. I'll get the ball rolling:Leinart is on his way to being the next great QB because he has 3 extremely talented people catching the ball and one talented running back who defenses have to respect even though the line sucks. Having Denny Green canned will only make him better and if the O-line improves, he'll be even better.Frankly, I could see Matt Leinart developing to play Dan Marino to Vince Young's John Elway. You know, where one guy has the stats but never wins much and the other guy wins. See you in February.... 
I don't think you'll find too many arguments... you might as well not bother.
The answer to this is that the nature of our hobby and the world in general causes people to try and tear down those that succeed. I think it makes some feel better about themselves that others have flaws. With respect to our hobby, some feel it necessary to criticize the popular opinion. If the popular opinion is right, after all, then we're just wasting out time and intellect here. That's why we see threads when a "popular" site like ESPN or CBS Sportsline whiffs on a projection--because some see it as validation that we know more. To those that didn't follow Vince Young's career, he was an overnight success that become the media's darling for winning the Rose Bowl. To make themselves look smarter than the general population people started taking shots at Young. It also happened to Leinart and Reggie Bush. After all, conforming to the popular opinion is like going to a niche music lovers site and proclaiming the Billy Ray Cyrus is an incredible musical talent. I thought it reached its pinnacle when someone posted an article arguing that Young wasn't "humble enough to succeed in the NFL". The Wonderlic debacle gave people additional ammunition (as did valid concerns about his throwing motion and UT's offensive system). I thought it was funny that over 60% of the people on this board voted that the NFL was covering up Young's score so that they could market him. In my opinion that argument was full of holes starting with the fact that the NFL had no vested interest in inflating expectations for a player if he was really that dumb. The criticism became so harsh that only homers and a few others dared to defend Young. Now that he's doing well the critics are conveniently moving the bar from "Young will be a bust like Leaf" to "I just said that he wasn't going to be great". Now they are trying to paint Young backers as critical of anyone that doesn't believe he's the "second coming". The evidence (the wins, completion percentage in-line with other notable rookies, acceptable TD/INT ratio) at least begin to prove that Young deserves consideration as a viable starting QB in the NFL. No one wants to induct him into the HOF yet, but I think we can begin to put away the comparisons to Leaf and Akili Smith (search for threads that mention Young and either Leaf or Akili Smith and you'll find more than a few). As far as LHUCKS, he's proven that he's willing to say anything that he thinks backs his arguments (as proven in the great PAC-10 Bowl Record Debacle).the hairy scotsman said:
Nope, but the debate between Leinart and Young will continue for years. Cutler should be a part as well.(Much like the Eli/Rivers/Ben debates)
Well.....yeah!Very
I agree with everything except the notion that VY was an overnight success. Maybe, though, you meant that in the context of how he was perceived by the media and many others. Many did not see his earlier success, so when he impressed in the RB, he was hailed as an overnight success who came out of nowhere.
this thread made me remember why the shark pool is at its best from February to July when most of the white noise leaves.Your "facts":1: A truism. Only applicable if you're of the opinion that VY will not progress as a passer.2: Relative to the average NFL QB, yes. However, others have shown that his passing is on par or better then rookie QBs that went on to have great to HOF careers.3: Others have presented links and evidence that several pro scouts did not question VYs ability in this area, whereas you have only stated your recollections. Additionally, the wonderlick scores of McNabb and others have been comparable to VYs. Opposing facts:1: He's actually been improving for 5 years straight. He came into college as a very poor passer. He left college as an extremely effective passer. Additionally, he's shown improvement as the season has progressed as both a passer and a runner.2: The team was extremely listless under Collins and seemed destined to return to the top of the draft. Under VY the same players are 6-4 including winning 3 straight.3: He's made big plays to win games consistently over the course of his playing career at every level. This trend has continued in the NFL despite the increase in the level of competition.4: His personality, leadership, and work ethic have long been touted as a large part of his success, and reports out of Tennessee are that he is already a leader on the Titans.Your only basis for believing VY will not be a good to great NFL starter comes from the opinion that he will not improve his passing significantly. This is despite the fact that he has posted passing stats comparable to top quality QBs early in their careers, the trend of improvement in his game, and the general improvement of players, especially QBs, to improve over their rookie seasons. Its certainly possible that VY will not pan out to be a great QB as any number of things from injury to supporting cast to a lack of development are all potential road blocks. However, any claim that he has no chance to be a great QB based on what we've seen so far is complete conjecture and entirely unfounded in the facts available to us.LHUCKS said:
Factual statement, though it is so obvious, it is almost not worth the time to type.A corollary: Immobile QBs that don't become good passers never become even good QBs.
I'll tell you my theory: Check out my avatar... LHUCKS still hangs on...Let it go, LHUCKS. Just let it go...Exactly. There are some people who will never, ever give Young his due. Then they'll just dismiss you as a homer or ignorant, or stupid, or whatever, even after you've presented mounting compelling evidence. It's really that simple.Dude, LHucks has seen your posts, and others that he keeps ignoring. May as well stop asking him. He has nothing to back his opinion up, and you (and others) have already dismantled his early arguments.SI is back on the bandwagon...LHucks,
Since you did not bother to actually answer anything in my post, ..... Please enlighten us all.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/covers/issues/2006/1218.html
That's why I haven't gotten more involved in this thread...it's like beating your head against a wall.
Did you see him early in his career?
+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ | Passing | Rushing |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| 1985 tam | 5 | 72 138 52.2 935 6.8 3 8 | 40 233 1 || 1986 tam | 14 | 195 363 53.7 2282 6.3 8 13 | 74 425 5 || 1987 sfo | 8 | 37 69 53.6 570 8.3 10 0 | 26 190 1 || 1988 sfo | 11 | 54 101 53.5 680 6.7 3 3 | 27 184 1Two wordsTampa Bay
In fact, Steve Young has 4 seasons in the top 50 all-time for QB rushing yards in one season. I just love that little data domintor tool.
Damn it, quit coming in here with facts. Everyone KNOWS that Steve Young came into the league as a highly effective passing QB and virtually never ran with the ball and it is damned disingenuous of you to twist and mangle the facts in that manner!
Exactly! To call VY a running QB is also an insult! VY uses his legs as a compliment/weapon. He is a pass first QB, who can CRUSH you with his running ability, especially if you blitz and open the lanes for him. I implore you to watch him play, watch closely and analytically...just one game! Watch him take snaps from under center, drop back into the pocket and go through his reads. After you watch the game, tell me honestly if you don't think he can "chuck the rock".
You went a little to far with that statement. Come playoff time, I don't think any team in the AFC playoffs would be hoping to avoid the Titans over any other playoff team. Titan fan, perhaps?
As for Vince, he is winning in spite of himself right now. That's not meant to be a criticism. I think that is a credit to him and his leadership abilities. Obviously, he brings more to the table than his passing ability. Right now he's making a living on those other things.Having said that, I think he's being overrated when people are saying he's a leader for ROY. I think there are several others who are more deserving and who have been better in their rookie year than Vince.Right now, based on how he has played, the best thing you can say is Vince is proving he doesn't need to be a good passer to be a very effective QB. I'm sure VY himself is expecting more from himself as time goes on. He's struggling like most rookie QBs struggle, and has a long way to go.Not the ROY IMO.
do people remember how horrible and what a laughing stock TB was??? If you look at his SF numbers those first 2 years he had 7% of his passes go for a TD vs vs less than 4% for VY. His YPA is higher, his INT % is lower and his completion % is higher.
you dont think mike vick drops back frequently also???? Why do you think he gets sacked so much? Just because a guy drops back and looks around DOES NOT mean he is making good reads.
Young ranks 6th all-time in rushing yards by a QB in his first two seasons. He ran, he ran often and he ran a lot. He was a runner. A runner he was.
I'm asking you to watch him play and objectively judge for yourself. I don't believe you've ever done that. Don't post, watch.
Ahhhh, the classic troll exit. Spend 9 pages on a fishing expidition, complain that the thread has become worthless, and leave (or threaten to leave) the forum.See you at the trolly awards in Februaray!LHUCKS said:
...member #22000 calling me a troll. I've forgotten more about fantasy football in the last week, than you'll ever know. FYI, I create the challenging discussion around here in the offseason. If you're obedient I might let you get me my coffee. 
Run along now...there's mod brownnosing that needs to be done. :colin:
Punxsutawney Phil? Is that you?Ahhhh, the classic troll exit. Spend 9 pages on a fishing expidition, complain that the thread has become worthless, and leave (or threaten to leave) the forum.See you at the trolly awards in Februaray!LHUCKS said:
this thread made me remember why the shark pool is at its best from February to July when most of the white noise leaves.
