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Who's better, Manning or Brady? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter bostonfred
- Start date
Devine Intervention
Footballguy
Winningest - Brady
Most impossible to defend at their peaks - Rodgers, Steve Young
Best at elevating teammates to Pro Bowl and HoF status and putting up huge numbers consistently, while being far and away the most influential/valuable player on the team (meaning, he has more of a say and runs the offense more than any other qb) - Manning
Most impossible to defend at their peaks - Rodgers, Steve Young
Best at elevating teammates to Pro Bowl and HoF status and putting up huge numbers consistently, while being far and away the most influential/valuable player on the team (meaning, he has more of a say and runs the offense more than any other qb) - Manning
bostonfred
Footballguy
Brady made troy brown a pro bowler, led the league in touchdowns in his first full season as starter (with smurfs like brown and David patten), beat the Panthers in the superbowl in a shootout, took Reche Caldwell to the afccg, set multiple nfl records in his very first season with moss and Welker, helped moss set the receiving tds record, helped welker set the nfl record for most consecutive 100 catch seasons, set the nfl record for most passes without an interception, came one away from tying the nfl record for consecutive games with a touchdown pass, broke Marino's 27 year old receiving yardage mark. helped Gronk set the tight end touchdown record and is every bit as much in control of the offense as manning at the line. How does manning get more credit for "elevating" Marshall Faulk, marvin Harrison, edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, demaryius Thomas... all of whom looked really good without him?maf005 said:
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Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
This is one of the more insufferable sports debates, partially because everyone is so entrenched in their sides nobody will concede the other party is better at anything.
I never once said that Brady doesn't elevate his teammates significantly. He does. But not as much as Peyton who I think does it more than anyone has, ever. Harrison and Wayne are possible HoF receivers but, in my opinion, would not be anywhere near that discussion had they not played with Manning for basically their entire careers. DT has turned into one of the most precise route runners in the league with Peyton after being an unpolished 'project' coming into the league. I'm pretty confident Decker had far and away the best seasons of his career with Manning (he still has a lot of time left, I know) and will regress statistically wherever he goes. Manny Sanders is the opposite; jag turned pro-bowler. As a Cody Latimer dynasty owner, I'm hoping Peyton comes back one more year so Latimer can learn under the best.
There are plenty of other examples (clark, stokley, collie, etc) of players putting up good to great stats with 18 only to drop off when they leave. Same with Brady. They are both really good at qb and elevate everyone they play with. In my opinion, Manning just does it a bit better. I will concede that Manning probably has a perception advantage in this given that he has generally had less turnover at WR/TE than Brady.
And as an aside, Moss and Gronk were/are total freaks who create mismatches every snap. Moss' career is full of examples of him going to a new qb/team only for that qb to set new career marks. Gronk, I would guess, is similar but won't ever leave NE. So to say that Brady elevated Moss without acknowledging the inverse is a bit disingenuous.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
It is your opinion that they wouldn't have been hall of famers with another quarterback, but Wayne didn't fall off the earth when Manning left, Pierre Garcon has had at least 1 good season and another season that was looking really good after he left Manning, but was cut short due to injury. DT was looking like a freak and a top receiver in the making with Tebow throwing him the ball. Decker also showed some flashes with Tebow and Orton. You give Manning credit for teaching DT on becoming a better route runner, it couldn't have been coaches or DT's desire to become one of the best in the game could it? Sanders did become a pro bowler, but maybe that is just Sanders being more motivated to show his old team they made a mistake, or maybe the fact that teams were game planning for 2 or 3 weapons that the Broncos had compared to the 1 weapon the Steelers had while he was there. I honestly think quarterbacks are given way too much credit for the development of receivers.
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Good points but when I think about Manning's top receivers like Wayne, Harrison, DT (current), Sanders, Clark, I think of them as having the necessary minimum physical requirements but also being sound route runners. They all are sorta known for being technicians. DT maybe more for his physical prowess but in my opinion his reputation hasn't caught up with ability. Harrison was super fast and quick but his route running set him apart from other small and fast types.
And yes you're right that I'm not describing the exact mechanism of how a receiver improves. Clearly the receiver's desire and work ethic has something to do with it. It would be wrong to think otherwise. But when players say that Manning runs (as in, he's acting as the coach basically) the tightest practices, demands perfection from himself as well as others, takes extreme pride in both mental and physical preparation, etc I tend to give Manning credit for creating an environment or setting that facilitates player growth or learning. And maybe my perception of how Manning vs Brady runs a practice/offseason, but this is how I view it.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I never said moss didn't elevate brady's stats. He absolutely did. That's why I give less weight to manning's stats when he's had more receiving talent his entire career. But it's worth noting that Moss didn't just have his best year with brady. He arguably had the best year of anyone, ever.
Now let's do some fact checking.
You said there were many examples of quarterbacks who had their best years when moss arrived. that's not really true. Randall Cunningham had his second best season with moss, carter and reed. Culpeper had his best season -by far - the year moss was hurt. moss was mediocre with the Raiders, so I didn't even look if up. But everybody thought he was done when the patriots added him.
In four games with kyle orton, Eric decker put up almost exactly the same numbers as he did with Peyton Manning.
In Reggie Waynes first season with Andrew luck, he had exactly the same number of yards as he did with Peyton Manning (1355). Luck is great and all, but he was still a rookie.
In his third season, Garcon had his career best 784 yards with Manning. Until the following season with Curtis painter, when he had 947. Or two years later, with rg3, when he had 1346. To be fair, he missed two games that year with Manning, but still. Curtis painter.
Despite starting just 7 games in his first season away from the Colts, dallas Clark had the fifth highest yardage total of his 11 year career.
We never saw him off the Colts, but marvin harrison had 834 yards and 8 tds as a rookie playing with Jim Harbaugh. He was clearly an elite talent - rookie receivers back then didn't play like that right away.
Edgerrin James and Marshall Faulk both looked great outside indy as well.
Did manning elevate these guys? Sure. But is he the best ever at elevating them? That's a pretty big and very subjective leap, especially when you compare that to the careers of troy brown, David patten, Davis givens, Deion branch, and yes, randy moss and wes welker, so all had by far their best seasons with brady and most of whom sucked elsewhere.
Now let's do some fact checking.
You said there were many examples of quarterbacks who had their best years when moss arrived. that's not really true. Randall Cunningham had his second best season with moss, carter and reed. Culpeper had his best season -by far - the year moss was hurt. moss was mediocre with the Raiders, so I didn't even look if up. But everybody thought he was done when the patriots added him.
In four games with kyle orton, Eric decker put up almost exactly the same numbers as he did with Peyton Manning.
In Reggie Waynes first season with Andrew luck, he had exactly the same number of yards as he did with Peyton Manning (1355). Luck is great and all, but he was still a rookie.
In his third season, Garcon had his career best 784 yards with Manning. Until the following season with Curtis painter, when he had 947. Or two years later, with rg3, when he had 1346. To be fair, he missed two games that year with Manning, but still. Curtis painter.
Despite starting just 7 games in his first season away from the Colts, dallas Clark had the fifth highest yardage total of his 11 year career.
We never saw him off the Colts, but marvin harrison had 834 yards and 8 tds as a rookie playing with Jim Harbaugh. He was clearly an elite talent - rookie receivers back then didn't play like that right away.
Edgerrin James and Marshall Faulk both looked great outside indy as well.
Did manning elevate these guys? Sure. But is he the best ever at elevating them? That's a pretty big and very subjective leap, especially when you compare that to the careers of troy brown, David patten, Davis givens, Deion branch, and yes, randy moss and wes welker, so all had by far their best seasons with brady and most of whom sucked elsewhere.
No offense but fact checking isn't particularly useful if your reading comprehension is lacking. Maybe I didn't articulate my point well enough but you missed what I was attempting to get across.
My point was that receivers actually get better at route running when they go though Manning's practices and off-seasons. Not that they only put up better numbers, but that they are actually better WRs.
And I hate to do this because this argument is already tired, but to contrast with Brady/Pats, look at how many WRs drafted to be starters turned into complete busts. I don't think that happened nearly as often as with Manning or Indy. (here is where you counter with draft position fyi, but is a lazy and still doesn't explain the massive difference)
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
Not sure you can put the noose on Brady for either poor draft choices by management or running an uber complex scheme that has been shown to pick up by rookies and veterans alike.
I also think that it is hard to argue (although people have tried) that Manning over his career played for teams that valued and drafted receivers way more than NE did. Manning never had a receiving corps that featured Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, and a 35 year old Troy Brown and took them to the AFCC game.
Between the Colts and Broncos, Manning played for teams that valued skilled position players and selected a ton of them in the first round. The first round WRs were DThomas, AGonzalez, RWayne, and MHarrison, to go along with MFaulk, EJames, DClark, JAddai, and DBrown. Not all of them panned out, but they at least tried to address the situation in the draft and hit on a lot of those picks.
Brady got to play with 0 first round WR selections. The Pats didn't really go hog wild at other skill positions either, selecting only LMaroney, DGraham (as a blocking TE), and BWatson in the first round. Say what you want about Manning making his receivers better, but he started out with better receivers to begin with.
I'm not blaming Brady for NE's draft busts. I'm saying that Manning's intense practices and offseasons lessened the chance of draft picks busting. Another way to say that is that those draft picks were better as a result of said practices. This is relative to other teams, NE included.
It's easy to write off this discrepancy to the difference in draft position, but I would venture to guess that Indy's hit rate was significantly above average compared to the rest of the league, which is at least partially attribute to manning. NE's hit rate for WRs or RBs or probably TEs was worse than average even when you control for draft position. This rate likely has more to do with NE's complicated offense (which isn't much more, if any, more complicated than Indy's) and coaching staff rather than Brady, which supports the argument that Manning has more influence than Brady when it comes to skill position development.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
based on manning's performances, I'm guessing properly inflated ones are really hard to throwFlapJacks said:
bostonfred
Footballguy
Neofight
Footballguy
As far as we know. I've heard this is pretty widespread. With Manning's arm being progressively weaker the last few years, it wouldn't be a surprise at all to learn his balls were deflated, scuffed, or cupped and raised.
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Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
moleculo
Footballguy
i think maybe you guys are a little early to be burying Brady.
bostonfred
Footballguy
And. ... bump
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
What difference does it make? Long after all of us are gone, there will always be a * next to all of Brady's and Belichick's "accomplishments"...
Did they cheat in the game tonight? No. Was it an incredible, close game? Yes. Was any one player the sole reason their team won/lost? No. Did Brady play a very, very good game overall? Yes. Manning and Brady are both all time greats. Absolute pleasure watching both of them. Trying to write off the Pats' decade of accomplishments to spygate, and "deflategate" (lame and overblown), is absurd. I'm not a Pats homer, but I admire what they've accomplished and find it incredible what they've been able to do.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
It was Brady regardless of the result tonight.
He could've come out and played like Ryan Lindley and it still would've been him by a wide margin.
He could've come out and played like Ryan Lindley and it still would've been him by a wide margin.
DropKick
Footballguy
So Brady now has more SB victories than Manning, Rodgers and Brees combined... but if Manning somehow wins a 2nd he is in the conversation? I just can't follow the logic...
Deamon
Footballguy
Yes Manning beats out Rodgers and Brees. Easily.
SB's aren't everything but they definitely do help a lot. Mannings records and stats and the way he has played the game over that long, has been amazing. This battle is settled, but Manning is (for now) the 2nd best qb of our era.
G
General Tso
Guest
Yeah, it's posts like this... Just lame and low-class after a team has a win like that. But oh well. Wouldn't expect much different from this guy.Raider Nation said:What difference does it make? Long after all of us are gone, there will always be a * next to all of Brady's and Belichick's "accomplishments"...
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
G
General Tso
Guest
Lol. I'm happy as a clam dude. You forgetting who won the game? Sweet dreams pal : )
beerbarron
Footballguy
Brady....
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
I agree, all this kind of stuff is funny like that, but butler never gets a chance to be the guy unless brady puts on one of the all time great 4th qtr performances
you can go back through everybody's careers and wonder about this play or that guy, but at the end brady's teams always seem to be in a position for some guy to make that play, so I'll take that.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
I think Manning may even vote for Brady at this point.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
I didn't realize Marino was an option here.
Regardless, your post is wildly incorrect.
If it weren't for the bad play call/great play by Butler, Brady would have been given the Manning playoff treatment. Haven't checked the math recently but off the top of my head there are at least 5 instances where Manning drove his team down to take the lead late in the 4th quarter only to have his team's defense give it back.
G
General Tso
Guest
If it weren't for a ridiculously lucky catch by Kearse the bad play call never would have come into play.If it weren't for two other crazy catches by the Giants Brady would have 6 rings.
If my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle.
It takes some mental gymnastics to not give Brady credit for an epic 4th quarter comeback last night. Sometimes it's best to just call it what it it was and recognize greatness when you see it.
moleculo
Footballguy
let me just put this here:
Superbowl on the line. down by 3, 6:52 left in the game. Tom Brady orchestrated a 10 play drive, eating 4 minutes and 50 seconds, culminating in the go-ahead touchdown. Brady was 9-9 for 71 yards and a TD on the drive, against the best D in the league.
That right there is brilliance under maximum pressure.
Superbowl on the line. down by 3, 6:52 left in the game. Tom Brady orchestrated a 10 play drive, eating 4 minutes and 50 seconds, culminating in the go-ahead touchdown. Brady was 9-9 for 71 yards and a TD on the drive, against the best D in the league.
That right there is brilliance under maximum pressure.
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