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Torrent Talk (1 Viewer)

Is downloading a CD or DVD via torrent stealing?

  • Absolutely stealing.

    Votes: 40 45.5%

  • Sort of stealing but ok.

    Votes: 16 18.2%

  • On the fence.

    Votes: 10 11.4%

  • Sort of stealing but not ok.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Absolutely not stealing.

    Votes: 22 25.0%
  • Total voters
    88
Joe Bryant

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
I see lots of people talking about downloading dvds via torrents.

Please stop doing that. I guess I'm more sensitive to that as I have several friends that are struggling to get music careers off the ground and this kind of thing directly impacts them.

So please stop the posts about how to do it and please stop the advertising for PMs for people to send you copied disks.

But I'm open to discussing the bigger picture here. For you guys that do the torrent thing, how do you justify it that it's not stealing from the music artist or the creator of the DVD?

J

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joe Bryant said:
I see lots of people talking about downloading dvds via torrents. Please stop doing that. I guess I'm more sensitive to that as I have several friends that are struggling to get music careers off the ground and this kind of thing directly impacts them.So please stop the posts about how to do it and please stop the advertising for PMs for people to send you copied disks.But I'm open to discussing the bigger picture here. For you guys that do the torrent thing, how do you justify it that it's not stealing from the music artist or the creator of the DVD?J
Click to expand...
I don't diagree with you but $1.29 for an MP3 is stealing in my book.
 
Joe Bryant said:
I have several friends that are struggling to get music careers off the ground
Click to expand...
They should put all their stuff out on the web for free. That's the best way to get their music careers off the ground. If they're any good, they'll make the money they deserve playing concerts, selling merchandise, limited edition stuff, etc.
 
FWIW, which isn't much, the independent musicians/record label that I know encourage people to "steal" their music. Anything that gets their name out to the masses helps. Besides, they get a minimal cut of the actual record sales anyway - the money's in the touring. And if more people get a hold of their stuff by downloading it for free and eventually get tickets to see them when they come to town on tour, that's a bonus.

I know all musicians don't feel the same way, but :mellow: .

 
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Joe Bryant said:
I have several friends that are struggling to get music careers off the ground
Click to expand...
They should put all their stuff out on the web for free. That's the best way to get their music careers off the ground. If they're any good, they'll make the money they deserve playing concerts, selling merchandise, limited edition stuff, etc.
Click to expand...
That's what some are doing. Do you think they "deserve" to make money for selling a CD they created?Do you think it's ok that people get the CD for free via torrents or other sites?And I'd ask another question - is there a "line" for sharing? In other words, if I buy a CD I like, can I burn a copy for my son? Should I have to buy everyone in my household a copy that wants to listen? Hmmm.J
 
Was it considered stealing back in the day when I'd put in a blank cassette and tape songs off of the radio?

 
Was it stealing back in the 80's when I made a copy of a cassette for a buddy?

 
Joe Bryant said:
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Joe Bryant said:
I have several friends that are struggling to get music careers off the ground
Click to expand...
They should put all their stuff out on the web for free. That's the best way to get their music careers off the ground. If they're any good, they'll make the money they deserve playing concerts, selling merchandise, limited edition stuff, etc.
Click to expand...
That's what some are doing.

Do you think they "deserve" to make money for selling a CD they created?

Do you think it's ok that people get the CD for free via torrents or other sites?

And I'd ask another question - is there a "line" for sharing? In other words, if I buy a CD I like, can I burn a copy for my son? Should I have to buy everyone in my household a copy that wants to listen? Hmmm.

J
Click to expand...
Exactly. Where's the line? If 2 best friends both want to hear a new CD, can one person buy and burn his friend a copy? What about 2 not so close friends? Strangers?What if 2 neighbors both have hedges and both need hedge trimmers. Wouldn't it be better if just one of them bought hedge trimmers and they just shared?

Sharing is caring, imo.

 
Joe Bryant said:
I see lots of people talking about downloading dvds via torrents. Please stop doing that. I guess I'm more sensitive to that as I have several friends that are struggling to get music careers off the ground and this kind of thing directly impacts them.So please stop the posts about how to do it and please stop the advertising for PMs for people to send you copied disks.But I'm open to discussing the bigger picture here. For you guys that do the torrent thing, how do you justify it that it's not stealing from the music artist or the creator of the DVD?J
Click to expand...
Disagree. The business model has changed and the bands need to adapt. Gone are the days where profit is derived soley from the distribution of a product. It was only that way because most people didn't have access to the data in a format that was swappable. That horse has left the barn. Bands etc would do go to get people to try and listen to their music. What better way than having someone else promote it, play it, listen to it, blog it etc.The Music Blogs are here for good. Odds are you can Google any band (that someone has heard of etc) and find their music on a blog. But that is also good exposure for the bands. Best bet really is to join em instead of beat em, by posting your own material freely available online (a la comedy central) so that you are at least capturing the ad revenue instead of Youtube of some random music blog.Trust me, a band that has tons of people downloading their songs will command more in the way of concert.tour/mdse revenues, and promotional opportunities.The new model also means you don't need to rely on the big 5 record companies, who would routinely rape and abuse artists based on leverage in the contract negotiations.
 
Steve Tasker said:
FWIW, which isn't much, the independent musicians/record label that I know encourage people to "steal" their music. Anything that gets their name out to the masses helps. Besides, they get a minimal cut of the actual record sales anyway - the money's in the touring. And if more people get a hold of their stuff by downloading it for free and eventually get tickets to see them when they come to town on tour, that's a bonus.I know all musicians don't feel the same way, but :mellow: .
Click to expand...
It's like I always say... if you can't give your music away for free, how are you going to get them to buy it?
 
Joe Bryant said:
I see lots of people talking about downloading dvds via torrents. Please stop doing that. I guess I'm more sensitive to that as I have several friends that are struggling to get music careers off the ground and this kind of thing directly impacts them.So please stop the posts about how to do it and please stop the advertising for PMs for people to send you copied disks.But I'm open to discussing the bigger picture here. For you guys that do the torrent thing, how do you justify it that it's not stealing from the music artist or the creator of the DVD?J
Click to expand...
The horse has left the barn. Its just too easy to transfer media around. The days of making money by copyrighting and selling music are going away and are never coming back. Music in the future will be like a chef creating a new recipe. In truth you can't really copyright a recipe. Chefs don't make money by copyrighting recipes and selling them. They make money by working for someone who likes their food.I think if you want to make a career as a recording artist in the future, you can't just make music and sell it. You have to do something like sell a video game company on your ability to make good music, and then work for them writing material for their games. Or you start up a rock band, and sell tickets to your live concerts on a tour, but the music itself is free.
 
Hipple said:
Joe Bryant said:
I see lots of people talking about downloading dvds via torrents. Please stop doing that. I guess I'm more sensitive to that as I have several friends that are struggling to get music careers off the ground and this kind of thing directly impacts them.So please stop the posts about how to do it and please stop the advertising for PMs for people to send you copied disks.But I'm open to discussing the bigger picture here. For you guys that do the torrent thing, how do you justify it that it's not stealing from the music artist or the creator of the DVD?J
Click to expand...
Disagree. The business model has changed and the bands need to adapt. Gone are the days where profit is derived soley from the distribution of a product. It was only that way because most people didn't have access to the data in a format that was swappable. That horse has left the barn. Bands etc would do go to get people to try and listen to their music. What better way than having someone else promote it, play it, listen to it, blog it etc.The Music Blogs are here for good. Odds are you can Google any band (that someone has heard of etc) and find their music on a blog. But that is also good exposure for the bands. Best bet really is to join em instead of beat em, by posting your own material freely available online (a la comedy central) so that you are at least capturing the ad revenue instead of Youtube of some random music blog.Trust me, a band that has tons of people downloading their songs will command more in the way of concert.tour/mdse revenues, and promotional opportunities.The new model also means you don't need to rely on the big 5 record companies, who would routinely rape and abuse artists based on leverage in the contract negotiations.
Click to expand...
This is all true, and at the end of it all, yes, it is still stealing. But the fact is, I wouldn't have bought the music I own. There's no way. But I just spent $179 on four tickets to see MGMT at Red Rocks in June, and I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't heard their music. And I wouldn't have heard it if I had to pay for it.
 
massraider said:
Hipple said:
Joe Bryant said:
I see lots of people talking about downloading dvds via torrents. Please stop doing that. I guess I'm more sensitive to that as I have several friends that are struggling to get music careers off the ground and this kind of thing directly impacts them.So please stop the posts about how to do it and please stop the advertising for PMs for people to send you copied disks.But I'm open to discussing the bigger picture here. For you guys that do the torrent thing, how do you justify it that it's not stealing from the music artist or the creator of the DVD?J
Click to expand...
Disagree. The business model has changed and the bands need to adapt. Gone are the days where profit is derived soley from the distribution of a product. It was only that way because most people didn't have access to the data in a format that was swappable. That horse has left the barn. Bands etc would do go to get people to try and listen to their music. What better way than having someone else promote it, play it, listen to it, blog it etc.The Music Blogs are here for good. Odds are you can Google any band (that someone has heard of etc) and find their music on a blog. But that is also good exposure for the bands. Best bet really is to join em instead of beat em, by posting your own material freely available online (a la comedy central) so that you are at least capturing the ad revenue instead of Youtube of some random music blog.Trust me, a band that has tons of people downloading their songs will command more in the way of concert.tour/mdse revenues, and promotional opportunities.The new model also means you don't need to rely on the big 5 record companies, who would routinely rape and abuse artists based on leverage in the contract negotiations.
Click to expand...
This is all true, and at the end of it all, yes, it is still stealing. But the fact is, I wouldn't have bought the music I own. There's no way. But I just spent $179 on four tickets to see MGMT at Red Rocks in June, and I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't heard their music. And I wouldn't have heard it if I had to pay for it.
Click to expand...
I admit quite a lot of the music of the last decade that I've heard and liked I was first exposed to by listening to the Madden football soundtracks. Those bands got their music on the soundtrack. I bought the game. I heard their music. I started checking out the bands.
 
I agree and am surprised that people openly talk about how to steal on the internet. But I'm also interested in the Insanity workout DVDs and probably wouldn't be if I hadn't heard about it here. I won't steal it, so they may end up making money because other people did. But while the thieves may use this to justify their actions to themselves, I'm paying more for the priviledge of supporting the people who steal, and so are other honest people who don't want to risk their integrity, or at least jail, for a fancy workout video.

 
Joe Bryant said:
And I'd ask another question - is there a "line" for sharing? In other words, if I buy a CD I like, can I burn a copy for my son? Should I have to buy everyone in my household a copy that wants to listen? Hmmm.
Click to expand...
Ever borrow a book? Ever lend a book? Ever xerox a page out of a book from the library? Ever borrow or lend a computer program disk to someone else? It's all stealing.
 
If I listen to something good then I will tell my friends about it. I never get any $$$ for free advertising so I consider it a fair trade.

 
In the coming decades, I think it is better for the artist for many of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. For one, it creates independent musical acts that aren't associated with corporations siphoning money out of their account.

Step 1: Form band

Step 2: Publish website

Step 3: Make Youtube video

Step 4: Reel in money from touring around the country

Absolutely cuts out the middleman, and if I have to download to revolutionize the industry, then ¡Viva la Revolución!

 
videoguy505 said:
Joe Bryant said:
And I'd ask another question - is there a "line" for sharing? In other words, if I buy a CD I like, can I burn a copy for my son? Should I have to buy everyone in my household a copy that wants to listen? Hmmm.
Click to expand...
Ever borrow a book? Ever lend a book? Ever xerox a page out of a book from the library? Ever borrow or lend a computer program disk to someone else? It's all stealing.
Click to expand...
Awaiting the response to this one.
 
safariplanet said:
In the coming decades, I think it is better for the artist for many of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. For one, it creates independent musical acts that aren't associated with corporations siphoning money out of their account.Step 1: Form bandStep 2: Publish websiteStep 3: Make Youtube videoStep 4: Reel in money from touring around the countryAbsolutely cuts out the middleman, and if I have to download to revolutionize the industry, then ¡Viva la Revolución!
Click to expand...
good posting.But I'd add and product endorsement (equipment, liquor sponsor etc, video gaming rights/soundtracks)
 
Joe Bryant said:
I see lots of people talking about downloading dvds via torrents. Please stop doing that. I guess I'm more sensitive to that as I have several friends that are struggling to get music careers off the ground and this kind of thing directly impacts them.So please stop the posts about how to do it and please stop the advertising for PMs for people to send you copied disks.But I'm open to discussing the bigger picture here. For you guys that do the torrent thing, how do you justify it that it's not stealing from the music artist or the creator of the DVD?J
Click to expand...
I know most of your members are American, but copying for personal use isn't illegal in some parts of the world and the artists are actually reimbursed by levies on the media. Should we refrain from talking about it too?
 
Hipple said:
safariplanet said:
In the coming decades, I think it is better for the artist for many of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. For one, it creates independent musical acts that aren't associated with corporations siphoning money out of their account.Step 1: Form bandStep 2: Publish websiteStep 3: Make Youtube videoStep 4: Reel in money from touring around the countryAbsolutely cuts out the middleman, and if I have to download to revolutionize the industry, then ¡Viva la Revolución!
Click to expand...
good posting.But I'd add and product endorsement (equipment, liquor sponsor etc, video gaming rights/soundtracks)
Click to expand...
Movies, TV shows, and especially commercials are a great moneymaker and great publicity.
 
Joe Bryant said:
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Joe Bryant said:
I have several friends that are struggling to get music careers off the ground
Click to expand...
They should put all their stuff out on the web for free. That's the best way to get their music careers off the ground. If they're any good, they'll make the money they deserve playing concerts, selling merchandise, limited edition stuff, etc.
Click to expand...
That's what some are doing. Do you think they "deserve" to make money for selling a CD they created?Do you think it's ok that people get the CD for free via torrents or other sites?And I'd ask another question - is there a "line" for sharing? In other words, if I buy a CD I like, can I burn a copy for my son? Should I have to buy everyone in my household a copy that wants to listen? Hmmm.J
Click to expand...
Bands don't "create" CDs. CDs are a physical medium to transmit the product that the band actually creates - the music - just like great authors don't create the paper and cardboard their works are printed on. In times past, the only way to really get your music out to the masses was to print it onto some physical medium and sell it, and the only way to do that was to hopefully sign with a big record label who would take most of the profits.Musicians should be compensated for creatig music that people like. And they will be, through concert revenues, etc. The days of making money selling CDs no longer exist, if they ever did. Your musician friends should set up their own websites and make their songs available for download. Put their stuff everywhere on the web to try and get as much exposure as possible. If they actually make good music that lots of people want to listen to, they'll be compensated fairly. If they don't, then they won't. Clinging to the notion of making money through physical album sales won't get them anywhere, though.
 
A bit off-topic, but sometimes I wonder if its just impossible to have a police state with modern technology. Information flows too freely. You'd have to do like North Korea and largely restrict and ban cell phones. They executed someone via firing squad for using their cell phone to call south korea about a food crisis recently.

 
Hipple said:
safariplanet said:
In the coming decades, I think it is better for the artist for many of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. For one, it creates independent musical acts that aren't associated with corporations siphoning money out of their account.Step 1: Form bandStep 2: Publish websiteStep 3: Make Youtube videoStep 4: Reel in money from touring around the countryAbsolutely cuts out the middleman, and if I have to download to revolutionize the industry, then ¡Viva la Revolución!
Click to expand...
good posting.But I'd add and product endorsement (equipment, liquor sponsor etc, video gaming rights/soundtracks)
Click to expand...
Not to mention the burgeoning lucrative ringtone market.
 
For out of print stuff, torrents seems like a non-issue. Record companies can't claim loss of revenue if they aren't selling it in the first place.

 
Bands don't struggle because people are stealing their albums they struggle because they're just not very good in the first place. If a band is good enough that everyone is stealing their music, they're making money. There's popular bands out there losing some money from the downloaders but a lot of albums that are downloaded would never have been bought in the first place.

 
I don’t get how discussion of torrents is any worse than discussion of who has driven under the influence or providing links to music videos via youtube. This is a discussion board – it’s up to the police to catch the criminals.

 
kaa said:
massraider said:
Hipple said:
Joe Bryant said:
I see lots of people talking about downloading dvds via torrents.

Please stop doing that. I guess I'm more sensitive to that as I have several friends that are struggling to get music careers off the ground and this kind of thing directly impacts them.

So please stop the posts about how to do it and please stop the advertising for PMs for people to send you copied disks.

But I'm open to discussing the bigger picture here. For you guys that do the torrent thing, how do you justify it that it's not stealing from the music artist or the creator of the DVD?

J
Click to expand...
Disagree. The business model has changed and the bands need to adapt. Gone are the days where profit is derived soley from the distribution of a product. It was only that way because most people didn't have access to the data in a format that was swappable. That horse has left the barn. Bands etc would do go to get people to try and listen to their music. What better way than having someone else promote it, play it, listen to it, blog it etc.

The Music Blogs are here for good. Odds are you can Google any band (that someone has heard of etc) and find their music on a blog. But that is also good exposure for the bands. Best bet really is to join em instead of beat em, by posting your own material freely available online (a la comedy central) so that you are at least capturing the ad revenue instead of Youtube of some random music blog.

Trust me, a band that has tons of people downloading their songs will command more in the way of concert.tour/mdse revenues, and promotional opportunities.

The new model also means you don't need to rely on the big 5 record companies, who would routinely rape and abuse artists based on leverage in the contract negotiations.
Click to expand...
This is all true, and at the end of it all, yes, it is still stealing. But the fact is, I wouldn't have bought the music I own. There's no way. But I just spent $179 on four tickets to see MGMT at Red Rocks in June, and I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't heard their music. And I wouldn't have heard it if I had to pay for it.
Click to expand...
I admit quite a lot of the music of the last decade that I've heard and liked I was first exposed to by listening to the Madden football soundtracks. Those bands got their music on the soundtrack. I bought the game. I heard their music. I started checking out the bands.
Click to expand...
same way rock band network lets new artists upload their music for people to play.
 
Joe Bryant said:
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Joe Bryant said:
I have several friends that are struggling to get music careers off the ground
Click to expand...
They should put all their stuff out on the web for free. That's the best way to get their music careers off the ground. If they're any good, they'll make the money they deserve playing concerts, selling merchandise, limited edition stuff, etc.
Click to expand...
That's what some are doing. Do you think they "deserve" to make money for selling a CD they created?Do you think it's ok that people get the CD for free via torrents or other sites?And I'd ask another question - is there a "line" for sharing? In other words, if I buy a CD I like, can I burn a copy for my son? Should I have to buy everyone in my household a copy that wants to listen? Hmmm.J
Click to expand...
When you were a kid Joe, did you ever tap songs off the radio?If someone lets you borrow or gives you their book (could be cooking book or any type), do you tell them "NO" and buy it yourself?
 
ODoyleRules said:
I don’t get how discussion of torrents is any worse than discussion of who has driven under the influence or providing links to music videos via youtube. This is a discussion board – it’s up to the police to catch the criminals.
Click to expand...
:confused:I wonder if there's anything to increased restrictions on discussions, and making this a G-rated place, and Joe's recent discovery that this place ain't as great as it used to be.
 
Rayderr said:
For out of print stuff, torrents seems like a non-issue. Record companies can't claim loss of revenue if they aren't selling it in the first place.
Click to expand...
This is a big factor as well.I admittedly download tons of unreleased studio material that never makes it onto a format. If there is a line with torrenting, it should stop there.
 
It seems silly to me that I can sit at my computer and listen to all the music I want for free by going to YouTube, but as soon as I save the music to my computer it becomes illegal. :confused:

I agree with most of the others. The business model has changed. Gone are the days where musicians make money selling records.

 
Not stealing in my book.

You can go FREE on an artist's site and watch their video/song. No different than taking that song and downloading it. Can also listen to that same song on the radio for free.

I swap books at times with friends/family. Some might consider that stealing but I don't.

 
E-Z Glider said:
It seems silly to me that I can sit at my computer and listen to all the music I want for free by going to YouTube, but as soon as I save the music to my computer it becomes illegal. :confused: I agree with most of the others. The business model has changed. Gone are the days where musicians make money selling records.
Click to expand...
Just because record companies say it's stealing doesn't mean it is. I have ZERO problems downloading any song, anywhere since it's available for free on the likes of youtube or even the artist's website.
 
E-Z Glider said:
It seems silly to me that I can sit at my computer and listen to all the music I want for free by going to YouTube, but as soon as I save the music to my computer it becomes illegal. :loco:
Click to expand...
Yeah, I don't understand this either.
 
In other threads, I've argued that thinking of copyrights as contractual arrangements (a la John Paul Stevens' dissent in Eldred v. Ashcroft) rather than as property rights makes a lot more sense.

Copying something isn't stealing. (The person you copied from still has the original.) If you get a cute haircut and I copy the style, I think everybody would agree that I'm not stealing from you. Songs are different from haircuts not because songs are inherently more property-like than haircuts, but because the federal government has a deal with musical composers and performers that it doesn't have with stylistic trend-setters. The deal is, "If you produce some art, we (the government) will prevent people from copying it for __ years thereafter." (I think it's currently 50 years after the life of the author.) If a song were really property the way a bike or a hat is property, its protection would not be limited to a finite period of time.

So copyright infringement isn't stealing the way taking someone's bike would be stealing. It's more like third-party interference with a contract.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
bostonfred said:
I agree and am surprised that people openly talk about how to steal on the internet. But I'm also interested in the Insanity workout DVDs and probably wouldn't be if I hadn't heard about it here. I won't steal it, so they may end up making money because other people did. But while the thieves may use this to justify their actions to themselves, I'm paying more for the priviledge of supporting the people who steal, and so are other honest people who don't want to risk their integrity, or at least jail, for a fancy workout video.
Click to expand...
I disagree with the bolded.Those "fancy workout videos" would be still be overpriced even if torrents didn't exist.

 
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