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Facebook IPO thread (1 Viewer)

oh, he's fine and will be rich beyond belief forever since he already sold $1B worth of FB so far. Gates recouped any losses he ever had. I'm talking about if FB never recovers to where it was at IPO, will he have set a record for paper losses. Microsoft recovered. Apple recovered. I'm saying it's a record already if it never recovers. I can't see how it does. It was so overpriced out of the gate and still is.

On another note that POS LNKD is still at a PE of 700. How the hell is that at 100 and not 10 or less?

 
Based on nothing at all I'm thinking a big bounce tomorrow as people try to catch the knife. Closes tomorrow at 35, closes friday at 28. :blackdot:

 
I think having 700M customers is worth a ton. I expect there will soon be a "Premium" Facebook and although most say they won't upgrade to it, enough will. And as the company starts leveraging their power base look for them to be a big player in the games world too (like Zynga). The creation of the Timeline was sheer genius. It will be the reason no one topples Facebook anytime soon. Once people have years worth of histories, they will not want to leave.

The pricing plan I would go for:

$1/month gives you these benefits:

- Unlimited timeline (else posts are scrubbed older than 3 years)

ability to see who has checked in on you and how often (stalker alert)

- Extra features like game tokens, software integration, etc

- Businesses must have premium model

then once they have a huge subscription model, simply raise the price to $1.99 a month or $16 a year, etc. :boatloads:
No way they allow a stalker alert. Being able to stalk undetected is what keeps people on Facebook for extended sessions.If people knew others could tell if they viewed their page the time spent on Facebook would drop at least 50% almost overnight.

 
Id delete the next day if that went into effect. Heck, im consideting getting out now, before they really whore out all of our info for stockholder profits.

 
I will buy a ton at 25. 20 would be a gift. 900 million users is 12% of the world population. Think about a television channel what 12% of the world clicked to for ten minutes a day. What would that be worth? Yeah...that.

 
The Facebook Fallacy

For all its valuation, the social network is just another ad-supported site. Without an earth-changing idea, it will collapse and take down the Web.

Tuesday, May 22, 2012 By Michael Wolff Audio »

Facebook is not only on course to go bust, but will take the rest of the ad-supported Web with it.

Given its vast cash reserves and the glacial pace of business reckonings, that will sound hyperbolic. But that doesn't mean it isn't true.

At the heart of the Internet business is one of the great business fallacies of our time: that the Web, with all its targeting abilities, can be a more efficient, and hence more profitable, advertising medium than traditional media. Facebook, with its 900 million users, valuation of around $100 billion, and the bulk of its business in traditional display advertising, is now at the heart of the heart of the fallacy.

The daily and stubborn reality for everybody building businesses on the strength of Web advertising is that the value of digital ads decreases every quarter, a consequence of their simultaneous ineffectiveness and efficiency. The nature of people's behavior on the Web and of how they interact with advertising, as well as the character of those ads themselves and their inability to command real attention, has meant a marked decline in advertising's impact.

At the same time, network technology allows advertisers to more precisely locate and assemble audiences outside of branded channels. Instead of having to go to CNN for your audience, a generic CNN-like audience can be assembled outside CNN's walls and without the CNN-brand markup. This has resulted in the now famous and cruelly accurate formulation that $10 of offline advertising becomes $1 online.

I don't know anyone in the ad-Web business who isn't engaged in a relentless, demoralizing, no-exit operation to realign costs with falling per-user revenues, or who isn't manically inflating traffic to compensate for ever-lower per-user value.

Facebook, however, has convinced large numbers of otherwise intelligent people that the magic of the medium will reinvent advertising in a heretofore unimaginably profitable way, or that the company will create something new that isn't advertising, which will produce even more wonderful profits. But at a forward profit-to-earnings ratio of 56 (as of the close of trading on May 21), these innovations will have to be something like alchemy to make the company worth its sticker price. For comparison, Google trades at a forward P/E ratio of 12. (To gauge how much faith investors have that Google, Facebook, and other Web companies will extract value from their users, see our recent chart.)

Facebook currently derives 82 percent of its revenue from advertising. Most of that is the desultory ticky-tacky kind that litters the right side of people's Facebook profiles. Some is the kind of sponsorship that promises users further social relationships with companies: a kind of marketing that General Motors just announced it would no longer buy.

Facebook's answer to its critics is: pay no attention to the carping. Sure, grunt-like advertising produces the overwhelming portion of our $4 billion in revenues; and, yes, on a per-user basis, these revenues are in pretty constant decline, but this stuff is really not what we have in mind. Just wait.

It's quite a juxtaposition of realities. On the one hand, Facebook is mired in the same relentless downward pressure of falling per-user revenues as the rest of Web-based media. The company makes a pitiful and shrinking $5 per customer per year, which puts it somewhat ahead of the Huffington Post and somewhat behind the New York Times' digital business. (Here's the heartbreaking truth about the difference between new media and old: even in the New York Times' declining traditional business, a subscriber is still worth more than $1,000 a year.) Facebook's business only grows on the unsustainable basis that it can add new customers at a faster rate than the value of individual customers declines. It is peddling as fast as it can. And the present scenario gets much worse as its users increasingly interact with the social service on mobile devices, because it is vastly harder, on a small screen, to sell ads and profitably monetize users.

On the other hand, Facebook is, everyone has come to agree, profoundly different from the Web. First of all, it exerts a new level of hegemonic control over users' experiences. And it has its vast scale: 900 million, soon a billion, eventually two billion (one of the problems with the logic of constant growth at this scale and speed, of course, is that eventually it runs out of humans with computers or smart phones). And then it is social. Facebook has, in some yet-to-be-defined way, redefined something. Relationships? Media? Communications? Communities? Something big, anyway.

The subtextan overt subtextof the popular account of Facebook is that the network has a proprietary claim and special insight into social behavior. For enterprises and advertising agencies, it is therefore the bridge to new modes of human connection.

Expressed so baldly, this account is hardly different from what was claimed for the most aggressively boosted companies during the dot-com boom. But there is, in fact, one company that created and harnessed a transformation in behavior and business: Google. Facebook could be, or in many people's eyes should be, something similar. Lost in such analysis is the failure to describe the application that will drive revenues.

Google is an incredibly efficient system for placing ads. In a disintermediated advertising market, the company has turned itself into the last and ultimate middleman. On its own site, it controls the space where a buyer searches for a thing and where a seller hawks that thing (its keywords AdWords network). Google is also the cheapest, most efficient way to place ads anywhere on the Web (the AdSense network). It's not a media company in any traditional sense; it's a facilitator. It can forget the whole laborious, numbing process of selling advertising space: if a marketer wants to place an ad (that is, if it is already convinced it must advertise), the company calls Mr. Google.

And that's Facebook's hope, too: like Google, it wants to be a facilitator, the inevitable conduit at the center of the world's commerce.

Facebook has the scale, the platform, and the brand to be the new Google. It only lacks the big idea. Right now, it doesn't actually know how to embed its usefulness into world commerce (or even, really, what its usefulness is).

But Google didn't have the big idea at the company's founding, either. The search engine borrowed the concept of AdWords from Yahoo's Overture network (with a lawsuit for patent infringement and settlement following). Now Google has all the money in the world to buy or license all the ideas that could makes its scale, platform, and brand pay off.

What might Facebook's big idea look like? Well, it does have all this data. The company knows so much about so many people that its executives are sure that the knowledge must have value (see "You Are the Ad," by Robert D. Hof, May/June 2011).

If you're inside the Facebook galaxy (a constellation that includes an ever-expanding cloud of associated ventures) there is endless chatter about a near-utopian (but often quasi-legal or demi-ethical) new medium of marketing. "If we just ... if only ... when we will ..." goes the conversation. If, for instance, frequent-flyer programs and travel destinations actually knew when you were thinking about planning a trip. Really we know what people are thinking aboutsometimes before they know! If a marketer could identify the person who has the most influence on you ... If a marketer could introduce you to someone who would relay the marketer's message ... get it? No ads, just friends! My God!

But so far, the sweeping, basic, transformative, and simple way to connect buyer to seller and then get out of the way eludes Facebook.

So the social network is left in the same position as all other media companies. Instead of being inevitable and unavoidable, it has to sell the one-off virtue of its audience like every other humper on Madison Avenue.

Here's another worrisome point: Facebook is a company of technologists, not marketers. If you wanted to bet on someone succeeding in the marketing business, you'd bet on technologists only if they could invent some new way to sell; you wouldn't bet on them to sell the way marketers have always sold.

But that's what Facebook is doing, selling individual ads. From a revenue perspective, it's an ad-sales business, not a technology company. To meet expectationsthe expectations that took it public at $100 billion, the ever-more-vigilant expectations needed to sustain it at that priceit has to sell at near hyperspeed.

The growth of its user base and its ever-expanding page views means an almost infinite inventory to sell. But the expanding supply, together with an equivocal demand, means ever-lowering costs. The math is sickeningly inevitable. Absent an earth-shaking idea, Facebook will look forward to slowing or declining growth in a tapped-out market, and ever-falling ad rates, both on the Web and (especially) in mobile. Facebook isn't Google; it's Yahoo or AOL.

Oh, yes ... In its Herculean efforts to maintain its overall growth, Facebook will continue to lower its per-user revenues, which, given its vast inventory, will force the rest of the ad-driven Web to lower its costs. The low-level panic the owners of every mass-traffic website feel about the ever-downward movement of the cost of a thousand ad impressions (or CPM) is turning to dread, as some big sites observed as much as a 25 percent decrease in the last quarter, following Facebook's own attempt to book more revenue.

You see where this is going. As Facebook gluts an already glutted market, the fallacy of the Web as a profitable ad medium can no longer be overlooked. The crash will come. And Facebookthat putative transformer of worlds, which is, in reality, only an ad-driven sitewill fall with everybody else.
http://www.technologyreview.com/web/40437/?p1=A1
 
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I have to say, I think all of this talk about the end of facebook is extremely short-sighted. It has valuable information (likes, dislikes, etc) on 700-900 million people. That's not just going to disappear. It's downright silly to assume Facebook is going to stick with the same advertising model to generate revenue.

 
I have to say, I think all of this talk about the end of facebook is extremely short-sighted. It has valuable information (likes, dislikes, etc) on 700-900 million people. That's not just going to disappear. It's downright silly to assume Facebook is going to stick with the same advertising model to generate revenue.
I don't think anyone is saying it will be the end of Facebook, just that there is not a way it is worth the 70B it is currently priced at or the 100B of its IPO.
 
oh, he's fine and will be rich beyond belief forever since he already sold $1B worth of FB so far. Gates recouped any losses he ever had. I'm talking about if FB never recovers to where it was at IPO, will he have set a record for paper losses. Microsoft recovered. Apple recovered. I'm saying it's a record already if it never recovers. I can't see how it does. It was so overpriced out of the gate and still is.On another note that POS LNKD is still at a PE of 700. How the hell is that at 100 and not 10 or less?
just sold half of my position on LNKD yesterday, and if the rumor of them buying monster is true, I could see it going higher. At least I see them having a solid revnue stream, every head hunter/recruiter in the world pays for their premium membership.
 
oh, he's fine and will be rich beyond belief forever since he already sold $1B worth of FB so far. Gates recouped any losses he ever had. I'm talking about if FB never recovers to where it was at IPO, will he have set a record for paper losses. Microsoft recovered. Apple recovered. I'm saying it's a record already if it never recovers. I can't see how it does. It was so overpriced out of the gate and still is.On another note that POS LNKD is still at a PE of 700. How the hell is that at 100 and not 10 or less?
just sold half of my position on LNKD yesterday, and if the rumor of them buying monster is true, I could see it going higher. At least I see them having a solid revnue stream, every head hunter/recruiter in the world pays for their premium membership.
I think LinkedIn has the potential to have pretty good earnings power, but that P/E is insane.
 
oh, he's fine and will be rich beyond belief forever since he already sold $1B worth of FB so far. Gates recouped any losses he ever had. I'm talking about if FB never recovers to where it was at IPO, will he have set a record for paper losses. Microsoft recovered. Apple recovered. I'm saying it's a record already if it never recovers. I can't see how it does. It was so overpriced out of the gate and still is.On another note that POS LNKD is still at a PE of 700. How the hell is that at 100 and not 10 or less?
just sold half of my position on LNKD yesterday, and if the rumor of them buying monster is true, I could see it going higher. At least I see them having a solid revnue stream, every head hunter/recruiter in the world pays for their premium membership.
I think LinkedIn has the potential to have pretty good earnings power, but that P/E is insane.
some things dont make sense. just roll with it. Im sure the bubble will burst one day.
 
'Dr. No said:
Do you guys know how to post videos to...uh... Facebook?
Guy commentating a Bulls game earlier in the year said that after a Taj Gibson dunk. :lmao: eta:

 
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oh, he's fine and will be rich beyond belief forever since he already sold $1B worth of FB so far. Gates recouped any losses he ever had. I'm talking about if FB never recovers to where it was at IPO, will he have set a record for paper losses. Microsoft recovered. Apple recovered. I'm saying it's a record already if it never recovers. I can't see how it does. It was so overpriced out of the gate and still is.On another note that POS LNKD is still at a PE of 700. How the hell is that at 100 and not 10 or less?
just sold half of my position on LNKD yesterday, and if the rumor of them buying monster is true, I could see it going higher. At least I see them having a solid revnue stream, every head hunter/recruiter in the world pays for their premium membership.
I think LinkedIn has the potential to have pretty good earnings power, but that P/E is insane.
LinkedIn would be richer than Facebook if they charged $200 to never get another email from LinkedIn.
 
If Facebook hits 25-27, 50-54 billion market cap, I will jump on it.

I don't use it, but everyone I know and most of the online population does. People volunteer all their information to Facebook. once they monetize it, which they will, the company will be worth a lot more.

Whoever controls the information wins in the long run. Facebook owns the internet.

 
The #1 concern with Facebook is that technology is advancing so quickly that all it takes is FB making one wrong move and they can be forgotten faster than you can say MySpace.

It looks like where we're going is:

1. Internet on desktop PCs. 1990s

2. Internet on smartphones. 2000s

3. Augmented reality (Google glass). 2010s

4. Full immersion virtual reality (The Matrix). 2020s

We'll get to step 4 no later than 2030.

After that, we pretty much stop being human.

 
The #1 concern with Facebook is that technology is advancing so quickly that all it takes is FB making one wrong move and they can be forgotten faster than you can say MySpace.It looks like where we're going is:1. Internet on desktop PCs. 1990s2. Internet on smartphones. 2000s3. Augmented reality (Google glass). 2010s4. Full immersion virtual reality (The Matrix). 2020sWe'll get to step 4 no later than 2030.After that, we pretty much stop being human.
:lmao:
 
This guy gets it.

Why Facebook Is A Sucker's Bet

by BILL WADDELL

Valuing Facebook at $100 billion killed the company. While it could have continued to limp along as a privately held company, as a publicly traded company it has nowhere to go but down. That is a simple application of the Golden Rule ... not the one about doing unto others, but the one that says, 'Whoever has the gold makes the rules'.

The reason people make the mistake of thinking Facebook is a good proposition is confusion over who their customer is. They think the Facebook user is the customer, and that innovation and improvement will be directed toward increasing Facebook user satisfaction. That is hardly the case. The customer in Facebook's business model - and in yours and in any other business - is whoever pays. In Facebook's case, that is the advertiser. The Facebook users are not their customers - they are Facebook's product.

The Facebook business model is pretty much the same as television's and the news media. They offer up something for free to attract a crowd. They then sell access to the crowd to advertisers. The bigger the crowd, the more they can sell. Their measure of quality is not based on the content of the television programming, The accuracy of the news or anything else of value to their viewers or readers. The measure of quality is the size,demographic and spending power of the crowd they draw, and sell.

If you are a Facebook user, you get access to Facebook content 'for free',and in return Facebook sells access to you through passive advertising, and even more so by selling access to your personal data to advertisers. That's the Facebook scalesdeal. the more of you and your information they sell, the more they make. You, as a Facebook user, will tolerate being sold and having your time and privacy invaded so long as access to Facebook content is worth it. When you reach the point that the intrusion on your life from being sold as Facebook's product is no longer worth access to the content (or more likely you find another way to access the same content with less intrusion) you drop out of Facebook and they have fewer products to sell. It is a pretty straightforward deal, really.

So what can be expected from a publicly traded Facebook? Intense quarterly pressure to increase revenue - sell more advertising - grow the top line - with the only way to do that being to sell greater access to you, waste more of your time, intrude on your personal information more. And at the same time, reduce costs - which means spend less on enhancing the Facebook user experience. They may do a little or a lot of both and they may do it sooner, or they may do it later. But make no mistake, they have every pressure to push the scales away from making it a better proposition for the Facebook user, and absolutely no financial pressure to push the scales the other way. Privately held companies can invest in the product for the benefit of reasonable long term profits - but not publicly traded ones. So where it will end is very predictable. And the smart bet is, with a $100 billion book value - 100X earnings - the pressure to tilt the scales hard and fast will be intense.

What makes it even worse for Facebook is that, unlike television or the media, they don't even control the content that draws the users they sell to advertisers. The users do. So every time a user says the scales have reached his or her personal equilibrium, they not only drop out of the pool of products Facebook has to sell, they take their personal information with them, degrading by a tiny bit the very thing that makes Faceook an OK proposition for users. Television and the news media can at least assure content that draws a pool of people to sell to advertisers by paying for it. Facebook can't - hence, they are screwed in the long term.

I am quite sure the Facebook originators are well aware of this logical conundrum, which is why they chose to cash in quite a few of their chips while the cashing in was good. If you were one of the unfortunates who fell for the Facebook IPO, my advice is to cash out quick while the Facebook fever is raging. For the rest of us, sell Facebook short if you can, otherwise just sit back and watch to see who the suckers are holding the Facebook paper when the music stops.

Read more: http://www.evolvingexcellence.com/blog/2012/05/why-facebook-is-a-suckers-bet.html#ixzz1vzTS3v5w

at Evolving Excellence
 
The #1 concern with Facebook is that technology is advancing so quickly that all it takes is FB making one wrong move and they can be forgotten faster than you can say MySpace.It looks like where we're going is:1. Internet on desktop PCs. 1990s2. Internet on smartphones. 2000s3. Augmented reality (Google glass). 2010s4. Full immersion virtual reality (The Matrix). 2020sWe'll get to step 4 no later than 2030.After that, we pretty much stop being human.
As long as this virtual reality brings pron along with it, I'm all in.
 
What a mess!http://www.cnbc.com/id/47576863

How Nasdaq Lost Control of Facebook IPO, by the Minute Dead silence.For nearly 20 minutes on the morning of Facebook's [FB Loading... () ] trading debut last Friday, the line Nasdaq had opened up to keep traders informed about the social media company's $16 billion IPO had been mute.Well after the stock was supposed to have opened at 11 a.m. New York time, no one from Nasdaq was talking—and there was still no sign of trading.Finally, at 11:28 a.m., an unidentified person announced that the shares would open in about 2 minutes.Nasdaq also said orders and cancellations were still being processed, according to several sources listening to the call.Those crucial 20 minutes created confusion that turned into chaos over the next few hours as market makers—the brokers who quote bid and offer prices—struggled to figure out what was happening.They were rebuffed in their attempts to get Nasdaq to halt trading and sort out a growing number of problems.A lack of communication and, some say, misinformation from Nasdaq may have been central to the failed debut of Facebook's shares. Market makers—crucial to the smooth operation of stock trading—were unsure about their exposure for hours.Investors were in the dark as to whether their trades had gone through, in some cases for days afterwards.The turmoil caused the four big market-makers for Facebook's stock, Knight Capital Group [KCG Loading... () ], Citigroup's [C Loading... () ] Automated Trading Desk, Citadel Securities, and UBS [uBS Loading... () ] to lose around $115 million between them."There was very little if any communication from Nasdaq throughout the entire process," said Mark Turner, head of trading at Instinet, another market-maker based in New York. "As a matter of fact, we feel there was miscommunication."Instinet said it also suffered a loss, though it wasn't specific other than to say it was significantly less than the $30-35 million reported by Knight.The precise actions taken by Nasdaq officials last Friday are still unclear.Spokespeople for Nasdaq declined numerous requests for comment, referring Reuters to a status alert issued on Monday that outlined some of the problems encountered and some of the steps it took in an attempt to resolve them.FIST-PUMPINGThe Nasdaq call, led by Nasdaq Vice President Todd Golub, according to sources, was scheduled to last 2 hours from 10:15 a.m. to 12:15 p.m. to make sure that the exchange was keeping in close touch with the market. It is a normal event for a big IPO.However, this call stretched into the late afternoon, as the most anticipated new U.S. stock offering in years turned into one of the ugliest.The fallout from the events last Friday has become a continuing nightmare for Nasdaq OMX Group, which wooed the social media network for months and openly prides itself on its technology.The result is another black eye for an exchange industry already suffering because investors not only lost confidence in the financial crisis but through the "flash crash" in May 2010 when $1 trillion in shareholder equity was temporarily wiped out in a matter of minutes.Nasdaq CEO Bob Greifeld pumped his fist at the symbolic opening bell ceremony at Facebook's headquarters in Menlo Park, California next to Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg an hour-and-a-half before the company's stock was due to start trading.There were no outward signs then of the problems that were about to unfold back on Wall Street.At 10:58 a.m., Nasdaq issued a notice that the Facebook opening would be delayed until 11:05 a.m. IPO delays of that nature are not unusual, especially with a massive launch like Facebook.But then the revised start time passed without an opening trade on the stock. Minutes passed as traders waited.Nasdaq's next communication came at 11:13 a.m., when it noted in a terse emailed message to people who subscribe to the exchange's alerts that Nasdaq is "experiencing a delay in delivering the opening print in Facebook," with no other details.Meanwhile, market-makers were receiving messages about their orders that later proved to be inaccurate. They say they were told during the period between 11:05 and 11:30 a.m., when the stock finally opened, that orders were still being taken for the opening price."Nasdaq representatives were stating right up until 11:29 that they were still accepting orders in Facebook for the open," said Turner of Instinet.But that wasn't the case.Later, Turner said he was told that orders submitted up to 25 minutes before the opening were either canceled or not submitted into the marketplace until about 1:50 p.m.—more than two hours later.Other market makers received similar messages. Behind the scenes, the massive order volume was overwhelming Nasdaq's systems. Orders that were supposed to be processed in 3 milliseconds were taking 5 milliseconds, said one person familiar with exchange operations.This proved to be a major problem: In the extra two milliseconds new orders flooded in, thwarting the system's ability to establish an opening price for the stock and leading to a backup in unprocessed orders."This is starting to get bizarre," Wayne Kaufman, an equity market strategist at brokerage John Thomas Financial, said from the firm's trading floor on Wall Street, around 11:15 a.m.Finally, the decision was made to put through a fix to the systems problem and get the stock trading. That move to a secondary matching engine used the order book as it appeared at 11:11 a.m.—but this meant new orders and changes in orders that came in later did not show up in the opening price.A matching engine is a computer that pairs bids and offers to complete trades.Eric Noll, Nasdaq's head of transaction services, said in a statement earlier this week that the fix instead led to 2-1/2 hours of uncertainty during which brokers were unable to see the results of their trades.TRADING HALT?The stock opened at 11:30:09 a.m. at $42.05 a share.An investor looking at a quote screen might have thought the trouble had ended there. In reality, the problems were about to worsen.After initially heading to a high of $45, the stock soon began to plunge towards its issue price at $38.Lead underwriter Morgan Stanley [MS Loading... () ] stepped in to defend the stock while some others - unsure whether their orders had been processed or not - backed away from trading or decided to sell.If confidence is undermined at the open, people "pull back because their orders are essentially going into a black hole," said former Nasdaq Vice Chairman David Weild.Clients were telling their brokers they had not received confirmation of orders - which normally come through in seconds."Multiple market makers called Nasdaq and asked them to halt the stock and said, 'You have a problem and it's getting worse,' and their response was, 'The stock is trading normally,"' said an executive at one market-maker.It is unclear who would have the authority to halt the stock. Nasdaq would not comment on whether it considered such a move.For market-makers, the chaos was particularly problematic because they didn't know what they and their clients owned, and at what price."Should I be selling stock, should I be buying? And what's my price point?" said another official at a market-making firm. "You just don't know, so you were in effect flying blind until 2 o'clock."ANEMICThe Nasdaq call had been a one-sided affair with the market makers apparently placed on mute by Nasdaq throughout.In a sign of how desperate the market makers were getting, they even attempted to ask questions which were probably never heard, said Turner, who called the information flow "anemic at best."Nasdaq was telling call participants with questions to call the transaction services line. Some calls were not answered, and those who had their calls answered encountered delays of 45 minutes to an hour, the market-makers said.Nasdaq posted few status updates. Shortly before noon the exchange said in an email it was investigating the delivery of trade execution messages.An hour later, it said it was still working on those issues.Investors weren't sure if their orders had been filled, prompting some to cancel. That led to losses for market makers who have also, in many cases, compensated their clients for losses on delayed trades.Finally, at 1:47 p.m. Nasdaq said it would electronically process all orders that were supposed to have been done at the opening price at 11:30 a.m. That meant that more than 12 million Facebook shares traded between 1:49 p.m. and 1:51 p.m., one of the busiest periods for the stock that day, according to Thomson Reuters data.But market participants say these trades, according to time-and-sales data, did not appear to be executed at the opening price of $42.05.Instead they were recorded at the then prevailing lower price."Those trades that came across at 1:50 should have had an indicator on them called a late sale—in other words, these are not trades that just happened, these happened two hours ago," said Joe Saluzzi, co-head of trading at Themis Trading in Chatham, New Jersey.The barrage of orders added to selling pressure as it created the perception that a lot of investors were still trying to get out of the stock.The stock wobbled around $40 a share for another hour when more sellers came in, dropping the price to near the $38 issue price - where it spent several agonizing minutes as lead underwriter Morgan Stanley defended that level.Facebook's shares closed that day at $38.23, but have since slumped and ended this Friday at $31.91.The problems from Facebook's debut prompted Nasdaq to say on Monday that it was changing its IPO procedures, and would use the software it currently runs for its regular opening and closing numbers for future IPOs, rather than the software in place during Facebook's market launch.That may not be enough for traders who feel burned. Or, as one market-maker put it: "Why didn't you just halt the stock?"
 
Was the Facebook IPO brought down by a rogue trading algorithm?

ZeroHedge:

SkyNet Wars: Presenting The Rogue Algo Responsible For FaceBook's Downfall

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 05/26/2012 12:10 -0400

Somehow we doubt many will be surprised to learn that the reason FB failed to take off following its break of trading in the low $40s, has everything to do with, you guessed it, another HFT algo, which in those first instants of trading, did something that threw the entire market off: it kept crossing the market, with the Bid surging above the Offer, in the process shocking the entire price-supporting HFT array, designed to build upon upward momentum, resulting in the only other natural outcome: a steep, rapid selloff.

As Nanex' Eric Hunsader tells us: "Turns out just before Nasdaq's quote crossed and became non-firm, one copy of the same quote (crossed) was marked regular, and I think that caused other algos to react and immediately sell off the stock. When that crossed quote from nasdaq appears, bid prices from other exchanges suddenly evaporate and that causes the NBBO spread to explode from 1 cent to 70+cents in 1/10th of a second! Nasdaq's quote started doing this when the stock approached 42.99 -- that effectively prevented the stock from going higher (a few spurious trades right at the open came from BATS for 44 ~ 45 etc, before Nq's quote was in play). So these stupid Algos effectively short circuited the stock for Facebooks IPO! Unreal."
 
I am still holding 1000 at 38I have added 1000 at 33.25I have another order of 1000 in at 29.50, should it get that low.I have great long term confidence in this stock.
This is a losing strategy.
Dude has more money laying around than me. Good lord.
Better yet toad, why don't you capitulate your holdings, short this dog across the board, and then rebuy at around 20. I would find other things to invest in. Wheat pennies, the bridge in brooklyn, perhaps that clock building in london, hurricane insurance for my house in Wisconsin.....etc.
hoping this guy was just fishing us
 
Some of this discussion shows a fundamental misunderstanding of online advertising and data collection. I'll explain shortly, but first, my thoughts on the IPO.I'm actually fairly bullish on FB stock, just not at this price level. 100x earnings and 100 billion dollars? Essentially the stock offering priced out at least 2 or 3 years of growth. Good for those that already had options, but there is a ceiling on what the stock can do for a while. IMO they could triple their revenue/earnings and the stock might not move at all. If it gets down to 23-25 or so I'll be buying as much as I can. Anyway, the discussion about paying for the service or charging for business pages is silly. Similarly silly are all of the recent articles about people not seeing any return from FB ads. This should come as a surprise to no one - for ads to work, the person viewing them has to be complicit in receiving the message. Ads work on Google because when people go to Google they are almost always LOOKING FOR SOMETHING. Google's ad platform monetizes them finding what they need. Facebook does no such thing. Visitors to FB do not go to FB to shop, they go to stalk ex-girlfriends and post pictures of their pets or whatever.I don't think anyone (including the FB people) think that their on-site ad platform is ever going to generate much revenue. But the point of the on-site ad platform may not be to generate revenue but rather to dial in the ad platform itself. The FB-based ad platform is a testbed/sandbox for FB to match ads to people and test algorithms and such.......which leads to how FB is going to make a zillion dollars.Recently, FB changed their ToS to allow FB to track you when you are not on the FB site. THis means that when you go to another browser window or a different site, FB has the ability to follow you. So everywhere you go on the internet, FB is able to go with you and the treasure trove of data they have is with them. Which is why they will be launching an AdWords/AdSense competitor in the not too distant future. They don't care about making money off of you while you're on FB (outside of teenagers buying virtual goods in games). Rather, they give you the FB platform to use for FREE so they can collect scores of information about you. Eventually they will have a platform for publishers that delivers on site revenue to publishers like Google does, only the ads they serve will have higher conversion rates because they are REALLY atuned to you and your likes and dislikes, more so than Google. The challenge FB faces is time of engagement on the site, not so you might click on an ad but so they have time to collect more info about you. They need "horizontal" engagement....right now that average FB user is on the site less than 4 minutes a day IIRC. The longer you are on FB, the longer your friends are on, the more data they can collect about what ads to serve you on their new ad platform. By creating the app store a couple weeks ago, they are opening the door up for the same creative types that made the Apple app store so successful to come in and make the FB ecostystem full of new games and business services and tools and other stuff.....all things intended to make you come to facebook more often so they can collect more data and thus make more money when you leave FB.People talk about their challenge in mobile being about monetizing a mobile site, which is silly. They don't need to run ads on a FB app...they just need to make it full featured enough that you interact with it the same way you interact with FB on the desktop. They bought Instragram for this reason. They will continue buying properties that people engage with. Not so they can run ads on those properties, but so they can get more info about you. The stock will slowly slide for the next 6-18 months. And when the ad platform is announced the stock will double in a week. Black dot it, put it ink.
Actually 25x earnings. The $1B figure was their profit FWIW. I have an order in for 100 shares at $17 and will look at put options, when they become available, until then.
Earnings=profit
If Earnings = profits in Wall Street lingo, then does "profits" = Revenue/Sales or Net Income?
 
I am still holding 1000 at 38I have added 1000 at 33.25I have another order of 1000 in at 29.50, should it get that low.I have great long term confidence in this stock.
This is a losing strategy.
Dude has more money laying around than me. Good lord.
Better yet toad, why don't you capitulate your holdings, short this dog across the board, and then rebuy at around 20. I would find other things to invest in. Wheat pennies, the bridge in brooklyn, perhaps that clock building in london, hurricane insurance for my house in Wisconsin.....etc.
hoping this guy was just fishing us
I certainly do too. Hate to see anybody get hurt. This had so many telltale signs before and after its ipo to know something was wrong. In general, you see most ipo's priced in upper single digits to mid-high teens. Came out at double the high number. Strike 1. That so many investors were able to easily get shares at the offering. Strike 2. After it began trading, all sorts of peculiar stuff seemed to be going on. Finally, even after all the hype for months, it gained no luster from big money. In fact, just the opposite happened where the underwriters came in for support all day. Strikes 3 and 4. If it gets to 20 i might think about it. But how about wait for where it should have came out at.....around 16 imo. I question where all their revenue is going to come from.
 
I am still holding 1000 at 38I have added 1000 at 33.25I have another order of 1000 in at 29.50, should it get that low.I have great long term confidence in this stock.
This is a losing strategy.
Dude has more money laying around than me. Good lord.
Better yet toad, why don't you capitulate your holdings, short this dog across the board, and then rebuy at around 20. I would find other things to invest in. Wheat pennies, the bridge in brooklyn, perhaps that clock building in london, hurricane insurance for my house in Wisconsin.....etc.
hoping this guy was just fishing us
I certainly do too. Hate to see anybody get hurt. This had so many telltale signs before and after its ipo to know something was wrong. In general, you see most ipo's priced in upper single digits to mid-high teens. Came out at double the high number. Strike 1. That so many investors were able to easily get shares at the offering. Strike 2. After it began trading, all sorts of peculiar stuff seemed to be going on. Finally, even after all the hype for months, it gained no luster from big money. In fact, just the opposite happened where the underwriters came in for support all day. Strikes 3 and 4. If it gets to 20 i might think about it. But how about wait for where it should have came out at.....around 16 imo. I question where all their revenue is going to come from.
Not fishing at all. I dropped the final purchased down to $28.75 though. The sale moved status to pending, but I don't have confirmation that this 1000 purchase has gone through yet.
 
Don't worry about my portfolio. I am okay playing fb for the long run. Hopefully this last purchase bringining me to 3000 shares will be fine 18 months out. fb only represents 7ish% of pretty strong holdings.

 
The current price represents a retracement of over 33% from the intraday day 1 high of 45. I would expect to see some decent buying support near $28 which is also what I think should have been the final IPO price.

 
The current price represents a retracement of over 33% from the intraday day 1 high of 45. I would expect to see some decent buying support near $28 which is also what I think should have been the final IPO price.
Who keeps an accurate shares out number? What does 28x make market cap?
 
I seriously question your strategy. Why are you so eager to buy at this point?
My stragegy has always been to get as close to 3000 for close to $100k. If someone like me thinks the long term potential of facebook is high and can afford to get in, why not?If I sell right now (assuming the last 1000 purchase went through) I would have spent $100k on 3000 shares of fb. Currently I can sell back for $87k. So in that case I have lost $13k, so I was betting that on long term success of fb, that $13K is not even 1% of my portfolio. It is possible that facebook could fall and fall fast to the mid-lower 20s, if that happens then I am down just near 2%. But I think that 2% risk is a small compared to how I view the long term return.
 
I seriously question your strategy. Why are you so eager to buy at this point?
My stragegy has always been to get as close to 3000 for close to $100k. If someone like me thinks the long term potential of facebook is high and can afford to get in, why not?If I sell right now (assuming the last 1000 purchase went through) I would have spent $100k on 3000 shares of fb. Currently I can sell back for $87k. So in that case I have lost $13k, so I was betting that on long term success of fb, that $13K is not even 1% of my portfolio. It is possible that facebook could fall and fall fast to the mid-lower 20s, if that happens then I am down just near 2%. But I think that 2% risk is a small compared to how I view the long term return.
Near 2% on your entire portfolio but down about 25% on FB on the average if it hits 25. My point I guess is - what's the rush? You revised your order by $0.75/share because you thought it would go down further, so why jump back in now (literally now, I see $28.69 as I type this)? If it settled and climbed tomorrow, do you think you wouldn't be able to get back in at $29.75? Maybe it costs you an extra $1,000 but you're protected much greater on the downside.
 
I seriously question your strategy. Why are you so eager to buy at this point?
My stragegy has always been to get as close to 3000 for close to $100k. If someone like me thinks the long term potential of facebook is high and can afford to get in, why not?If I sell right now (assuming the last 1000 purchase went through) I would have spent $100k on 3000 shares of fb. Currently I can sell back for $87k. So in that case I have lost $13k, so I was betting that on long term success of fb, that $13K is not even 1% of my portfolio. It is possible that facebook could fall and fall fast to the mid-lower 20s, if that happens then I am down just near 2%. But I think that 2% risk is a small compared to how I view the long term return.
Near 2% on your entire portfolio but down about 25% on FB on the average if it hits 25. My point I guess is - what's the rush? You revised your order by $0.75/share because you thought it would go down further, so why jump back in now (literally now, I see $28.69 as I type this)? If it settled and climbed tomorrow, do you think you wouldn't be able to get back in at $29.75? Maybe it costs you an extra $1,000 but you're protected much greater on the downside.
I’m not rushing; I am just buying at the price points I am choosing to on the way down. The downside is relatively small, I could spend hours watching the market to save a few thousand here or there or miss my price points and pay more by the same amount. What I wanted was a good amount of shares at relatively reasonable levels as it falls. It will rise and once it does I will have a fair holding in a company I think has a few year of good growth in it. I have already put in another 1000 order at $23, I might change that to 2000 depending on what the rest my portfolio does in the next day or two. If we fall below $20 then I might start t o get concerned, after all we would be talking close to 3 of my totals. Though even at 19 and 18 I still will most likely be a buyer.Again, I am not rushing, I am buying at points I have predetermined to.
 
FB trading down this morning and hovering around $30. Headed for the $20's or bounce back?
Today's the first day options are available. It'll hit the teens before it gets close to hitting $40.
From Yahoo Finance.... "The busiest options contract on Facebook was June $30 strike puts, with more than 18,241 contracts on the tape at an average price of $1.45 per contract, according to Trade Alert. "The majority of the participants have been selling calls and buying puts in Facebook," said Steve Place, a founder of options analytics firm investingwithoptions.com."So it looks like generally more Bears/Puts than Bulls/Calls....at least for the next couple of months.
 

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