Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
There are a lot of dumb complaints about the show, how cersei died and jon not petting the dog (jfc) paramount among them.
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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter belljr
- Start date
Aerial Assault
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Gotcha. I always took it as just royalty in the castle, but she was letting people into town as a buffer, but still not in the red keep. So yes, the gates were shut, but citizens weren't piled in there, they were #### as an extra buffer.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Trying to think this through a little, but Jon killing Dany is a problem.
The Dothraki and Unsullied are loyal to her and only her. If he kills her, they are going to kill him and probably everyone else around them as they go off the deep end because neither group is a governing force. Greyworm is all about revenge now anyway. And there is no army in Westeros left that can stand against them. So in order for Jon to kill Dany they have to have switched sides, gone home to the east, or..... something. Maybe Dany kills them all in a fit of rage with Drogon? That would be...…. sadistically interesting.
How about this for a massive Hollywood type ****-show of an ending that could either be really bad or really amazing.
Jon and Tyrion realize that they need to end her but the Dothraki and Unsullied control the city, along with Drogon. Somehow, and I have no idea how, they need to lure all of them into the Red Keep. Maybe Tyrion sacrifices himself by some kind of assassination attempt that brings them all into the main gates of the castle and out of the city.
Tyrion tells Jon about the dragon fire under the city. And it turns out that they find a massive cache of it under the Red Keep. They decide to blow it up just like Cersei did to the Sept and with it take out Dany, Drogon, the Unsullied and the Dothraki. After Tyrion sacrifices himself, Jon manages to get down into the crypts, probably fighting off people, and in the end he sacrifices himself to destroy the Red Keep and everyone in it.
There is no more King's Landing as a seat of power. Dany and her entire hoard are killed. There is no more seat of power in the world, and in fact there are only two castles left in the West that have any sense of ability to lead..... Winterefll where Sansa rules the new Northern Kingdom and the western part of Westeros, and Stormsend (storms end being a fitting name for the end of the song of ice and fire) where Gendry Baratheon and his bride, Arya the ninja are the seat of power for the east and south of Westeros.
Something like that.
I like the visuals....don't know if I like the story.
Frankly I don't know what I want in this ending.
The Dothraki and Unsullied are loyal to her and only her. If he kills her, they are going to kill him and probably everyone else around them as they go off the deep end because neither group is a governing force. Greyworm is all about revenge now anyway. And there is no army in Westeros left that can stand against them. So in order for Jon to kill Dany they have to have switched sides, gone home to the east, or..... something. Maybe Dany kills them all in a fit of rage with Drogon? That would be...…. sadistically interesting.
How about this for a massive Hollywood type ****-show of an ending that could either be really bad or really amazing.
Jon and Tyrion realize that they need to end her but the Dothraki and Unsullied control the city, along with Drogon. Somehow, and I have no idea how, they need to lure all of them into the Red Keep. Maybe Tyrion sacrifices himself by some kind of assassination attempt that brings them all into the main gates of the castle and out of the city.
Tyrion tells Jon about the dragon fire under the city. And it turns out that they find a massive cache of it under the Red Keep. They decide to blow it up just like Cersei did to the Sept and with it take out Dany, Drogon, the Unsullied and the Dothraki. After Tyrion sacrifices himself, Jon manages to get down into the crypts, probably fighting off people, and in the end he sacrifices himself to destroy the Red Keep and everyone in it.
There is no more King's Landing as a seat of power. Dany and her entire hoard are killed. There is no more seat of power in the world, and in fact there are only two castles left in the West that have any sense of ability to lead..... Winterefll where Sansa rules the new Northern Kingdom and the western part of Westeros, and Stormsend (storms end being a fitting name for the end of the song of ice and fire) where Gendry Baratheon and his bride, Arya the ninja are the seat of power for the east and south of Westeros.
Something like that.
I like the visuals....don't know if I like the story.
Frankly I don't know what I want in this ending.
culdeus
Footballguy
bostonfred
Footballguy
I agree it was rough after a while but i think the point was to drive home the humanity of all the violence. I think they succeeded. There was a thread on reddit where a guy from Bosnia said he cried watching it because it reminded him of his youth.
Think about the death toll from this show.
Most of Renlys army of 60000 became Stannis' army which got destroyed at Blackwater then got reinforced by the bank, killed the wildlings and lost at winterfell.
The other half went back to highgarden and got destroyed by the lannisters.
The northern army was about 30000 strong, went south, lost 2000 men to capture Jamie lannister, beat up the lannisters a couple more times then got split over the car stark thing and then the red wedding. The remaining men died at winterfell.
The wildlings had 100,000 men but got killed by stannis cavalry and at hardhome. There were 8000 men when they went to fight Ramsey at winterfell and fewer against the army of the dead at winterfell.
The dornish armies and good greyjoys got decimated by euron. Euron lost the iron fleet to dany.
The lannister army, gold company, kings guard and gold cloaks are gone. The freys are all dead.
The nights watch is gone.
The sons of the harpy and the masters got cooked.
The second sons are just city cops now.
And now a large portion of half a million people in kings landing are dead.
The lannister, tyrell and targaryen families are almost completely extinct and a lot of the remaining ones won't have kids because they can't, it's not me, they swore not to, they used to be dead, or they look like bran.
There's still a little bit of the northern army and some knights of the vale, and there's still one dragon and a few dothraki and unsullied left, but there's still an episode left.
After all of that death... is anyone in a better place than king's landing under king Robert?
Stupid. I'm just going to pretend episode 5 was the finale if that happens.
Dickies
Footballguy
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
I think the problem for most of us is that Dany's descent into madness was more of a freefall.
For comparison, look at something like Frodo and the Ring. You see him fraying. You see him needing the ring more. You see him acting more like Gollum (someone already mad/corrupted by the ring). At the end, the question of if he can destroy the ring or not is a real question and his choice - in either direction - is earned.
As for Dany (in the show).
Aside from the last 1-2 episodes (out of 70+), from 1.1 to 8.3
Did she become noticeably more cruel or bloodthirsty? No.
Did she stop caring about friends, allies, her people, her dragons? No.
Did it seem like those around her were just a means to an end? No.
Did she become noticeably more irrational or paranoid? No.
Did her goals change? No.
Did she listen to advisers less? No.
Did she seem disheveled, confused, crazy, untrustworthy? No.
Were her closest friends, allies, or advisers whispering that she was losing it or someone undeserving of loyalty or the crown? No. (in fact, they were pretty much doing the opposite)
Would you ever say, wow, Daenerys and Viserys seem to have very similar personalities? No.
For comparison, look at something like Frodo and the Ring. You see him fraying. You see him needing the ring more. You see him acting more like Gollum (someone already mad/corrupted by the ring). At the end, the question of if he can destroy the ring or not is a real question and his choice - in either direction - is earned.
As for Dany (in the show).
Aside from the last 1-2 episodes (out of 70+), from 1.1 to 8.3
Did she become noticeably more cruel or bloodthirsty? No.
Did she stop caring about friends, allies, her people, her dragons? No.
Did it seem like those around her were just a means to an end? No.
Did she become noticeably more irrational or paranoid? No.
Did her goals change? No.
Did she listen to advisers less? No.
Did she seem disheveled, confused, crazy, untrustworthy? No.
Were her closest friends, allies, or advisers whispering that she was losing it or someone undeserving of loyalty or the crown? No. (in fact, they were pretty much doing the opposite)
Would you ever say, wow, Daenerys and Viserys seem to have very similar personalities? No.
Waingro
Footballguy
Yup, much like Ned, Jon is an honorable fool and I wouldn't be surprised if he follows the same fate as Ned. Last episode, asking Sansa and Arya to "pinky swear" before he reveals his lineage is just so delusional. Completely out of touch with reality. Of course they're going to use this info!
Dany's decent into madness was a combination of a lot of a lot of things but Jon betraying her, then showing that he no longer can love her was what put her over the top.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Listened to another podcast that basically hated the show and the turn that a couple characters took (one of them is not a book reader).
They had interesting points, mainly that foreshadowing <> character development, and that D&D have taken the approach of shock over a well earned surprise when left to their own devises. It's almost like they knew that they way they did the preview and voices in Dany's head that she would not have heard to hammer the point home that this was going to happen.
An example they give was LF's death - I guess that they purposely left off a scene or two with the girls because they thought it might have tipped their hand too much. Then LF's death was more shocking, but I also heard grumblings about that feeling like something was left off from people in here.
They also went off about Jaime's line to Tyrion about never caring about the people of KL that much and how that was odd for his character since that was the whole big reveal - he turned Kingslayer to save the people from getting torched and that was a big reason people came around to Jaime.
Not saying I agree 100% with all their criticisms, just thought these pods bring up some interesting points.
They had interesting points, mainly that foreshadowing <> character development, and that D&D have taken the approach of shock over a well earned surprise when left to their own devises. It's almost like they knew that they way they did the preview and voices in Dany's head that she would not have heard to hammer the point home that this was going to happen.
An example they give was LF's death - I guess that they purposely left off a scene or two with the girls because they thought it might have tipped their hand too much. Then LF's death was more shocking, but I also heard grumblings about that feeling like something was left off from people in here.
They also went off about Jaime's line to Tyrion about never caring about the people of KL that much and how that was odd for his character since that was the whole big reveal - he turned Kingslayer to save the people from getting torched and that was a big reason people came around to Jaime.
Not saying I agree 100% with all their criticisms, just thought these pods bring up some interesting points.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
On the Jamie point:
The order he was given by the king was to kill his father and bring him Tywin's head.
So as much as we liked Jamie (and I still do) and how much he "changed" his story about saving the people from being burned b the mad king can be seen as his internal way of justifying himself because if he just told everyone, I wasn't going to kill my dad, then he would not have had the same stature in the world. Knowing now that he was connected to Cersei no matter what and in the end wanted to die with her, the order to kill his father wasn't something he was going to be able to do.
The saving the people from being burned was just cover for his own decision that wasn't as honorable in that world as saving millions from a king about to lose a war anyway.
Waingro
Footballguy
Not going to Dany after Sansa revealed Jon's lineage was a pretty big mistake. Dany let him off the hook but Varys and the citizens of KL paid the price.
Super King
Footballguy
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Except - that isn't what happened.
Jaime doesn't go around telling everyone his justification for killing Aerys. In fact, very few people know. He just let them believe whatever they wanted. Even Qyburn a maester has no clue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ6fhp483YU
Hawks64
Footballguy
beer 30
Footballguy
I'd hate it if they did that. For one, we've already seen it and B). that would the cherry on top of a bad writing sundae and a turrible end to this magnificent series. Frankly it deserves better.
Not a discussion for this topic but has anyone addressed why the dragon's fire throughout the city when Drogon was toasting it? I assume the intention was to lob it on the screaming horde but it didn't really make sense where we were seeing the explosions i.e. interspersed throughout the city rather than on the ramparts. Just curious what y'all thought about that or didn't. I thought it was odd unless Cersei had planned to blow the city up once the horde was inside the walls.
Dorne
https://i.redd.it/zwevhjtmfjx21.jpg
tommyboy
Footballguy
this is exactly why shows shouldn't go more than 5-6 seasons eventually the hip thing to do is rip on the show, and also the material eventually suffers, loses impact and ends with a whimper.
breaking bad probably did this best, 5 years, great ending
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
True - so change it to his own internal justification or something he wanted to believe about himself (which actually fits better with his final comment to Tyrion).
Not trying to fight about it. Like I said, I am fine with the Jamie story line from start to finish.
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
But if he meant 'you will fly' for when he wargs he wouldn't have said 'you will never walk'. He has walked all the time when he wargs into something.
parrot
Footballguy
Does being the closest/only living relatives of the guy with the rightful claim, give you a claim? Wasn't King Robert's claim based on being a distant cousin to Targaryens? The Starks are first cousins to the last Targaryen (assuming Dany is out of the picture).
culdeus
Footballguy
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I think it was a call back to the fact that we knew the Mad King had cache's all around the city and nothing more than that.I'd hate it if they did that. For one, we've already seen it and B). that would the cherry on top of a bad writing sundae and a turrible end to this magnificent series. Frankly it deserves better.
Not a discussion for this topic but has anyone addressed why the dragon's fire throughout the city when Drogon was toasting it? I assume the intention was to lob it on the screaming horde but it didn't really make sense where we were seeing the explosions i.e. interspersed throughout the city rather than on the ramparts. Just curious what y'all thought about that or didn't. I thought it was odd unless Cersei had planned to blow the city up once the horde was inside the walls.
Dorne
https://i.redd.it/zwevhjtmfjx21.jpg
Although, just thinking through as I type the fact that Drogon's attack resulted in blowing up the cache's in this episode good be a foreshadow of what is to come with my Red Keep theory.
I don't know if it is an awful ending. Taking the character arcs out of the story for a second, if the destroy the Red Keep and everyone in it, while King's Landing is effectively destroyed, then there is no seat of unified power in Westeros. The wheel has been broken. There are also no more great houses left at all except Sansa leading whatever is left of Winterfell... and we are assuming that Gendry is in Stormsend, but even with that there are almost no people there - the castle was abandoned twice.
Take @bostonfred list of dead people/armies into this theory. There are no more armies if they destroy the Keep with everyone in it. None. Not a single army left to terrorize people in the world - not just Westeros, but anywhere. All the magic of Westeros is dead too. Jon, Drogon and Dany are the last remnants of it now.
I don't know. It could work.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Seems like King's Landing and the Red Keep are already close to completely destroyed.
JZilla
Footballguy
Yeah he'd probably have preferred being fire roasted by Drogon than what he had to end up bearing witness to.
Torching the people of the city at least partly as punishment to Tyrion works. The mad turn of the queen has been fumbled a bit, I guess, lost in the sauce, but it all still works.
In the end, for the Lannisters, it was all a no-win. One dragon wasn't even competition.. imagine if she'd still had three. (That ambush at sea was slop. Everything Euron was slop)
Pretty awesome effects, violent stuff.. the good news is there aren't many people left to kill
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Not all of it I don't think. And there still has to be a scene of Dany in the throne room I would think to connect back to that one vision in season 2 in the house of the dead.
Ugh, why would she need to do anything if she was just letting people in to the town, you know, where most of them live and already are? She was doing something unusual by adding extra protection and letting them into the red keep. So that Dany would have to kill more innocents if she went for her in the red keep.Gotcha. I always took it as just royalty in the castle, but she was letting people into town as a buffer, but still not in the red keep. So yes, the gates were shut, but citizens weren't piled in there, they were #### as an extra buffer.
And that's part of the larger point to Dany going crazy. Cersei tired to surround her self with innocents thinking it might protect her and as it turns out Dany just started killing them off in Kings Landing anyway. That's when Ceresi knew, although had to be convinced by her hand, that they were f'd.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
The sand snakes are dead so i guess that's addition by subtraction but they lost oberyn, their king, their prince, the dude with the axe, and all of the soldiers they sent to Dany on yara's ships.Dorne
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
So, if we do see that scene, is it the same scene from season 2? Meaning it was actually shot in season 2 and they are using it now? Or is it a reenactment? These are the things i think of.
LAUNCH
Footballguy
The Tahitian Facemask
Footballguy
Arya should take out Dany on the down low. Steal her face, do the whole Clark Kent/Superman thing. That way she could be a hot blonde chick, rule the 7 kingdoms and ride a dinosaur when she was up for it. Also, she could go back to being silent assassin Arya and hook up with Gendry again when she felt like taking junkets up north to visit Sansa and whatnot. Win-Win for everybody.
Of course her bumbling hand Tyrion would schedule them both to be in the same place within hours of her telling him and It all goes sideways.
Ship it to the iron bank bromigos.
Of course her bumbling hand Tyrion would schedule them both to be in the same place within hours of her telling him and It all goes sideways.
Ship it to the iron bank bromigos.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Again, my take is that it was unusual to let more people into town to suck up resources as a battle looms. It was brought up previously that people were being kept out of KL as #### was hitting the fan in previous seasons - hence Cersei was doing it to make Danys troops go through more innocent people if they came into KL.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
HOUSE TULLY
Edmure Tully is still alive
HOUSE ARRYN
"Sweet" Robyn Arryn is still alive
HOUSE GREYJOY
Yara Greyjoy is still alive
HOUSE MARTELL
There's noone of merit or show importance alive. They mentioned the New Prince of Dorne
HOUSE LANNISTER
Tyrion is still alive
HOUSE BARATHEON
Gendry Baratheon is still alive. But he's a ******* up jumped by a crazy Queen. Don't know how much water that would hold in a claim on the Iron Throne.
HOUSE STARK
Sansa, Arya and Bran Stark are still alive.
HOUSE TYRELL
There's noone of merit or show importance alive. I'd assume that Samwell Tarly (due to his fathers perceived importance) would be a ranking person in The Reach.
HOUSE TARGARYN
Aegon "Jon Snow" Targaryn is still alive.
If I was a betting man....If it isn't going to be Jon Snow.......I'd say Sweet Robyn.
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Godsbrother
Footballguy
Jon Snow when meeting Daenerys for the first time:
ummm. Wrong!
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I'd take Gendry. It'd be some poetic justice if the ******* son of the usurper who kicked her family out and started the whole game of thrones thing in motion, whom she just legitimized, ended up being king after all this. Ser Davos as his hand.
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Bobcat10
Footballguy
I think you need to focus on the people scrambling around the Keep in what I'll call the courtyard, they showed it at least once from above. There are gates/walls that get you into that area that were closed off. I don't think he meant random people were actually in the structure itself.
I think..
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
You're right. Arya, Sandor and Jamie all made it inside the city walls, but only Arya and Sandor made it inside the keep walls, Jamie got locked out and thus had to go to the smuggler bay to get in to the keep. I don't think they let the common folk inside the main keep buildings though.
sho nuff
Footballguy
I get some of the complaints...and perhaps it would have been better to make this more than 6 episodes in sort of a mini-2 seasons season.
The first being a bit more about the night king and WWs and the dead. To me, the biggest complaint shouldn't be about Dany's turn here...but how much "winter is coming" and the long winter and all of that was built up for years only to really give it one big episode to end it. We had some other parts of it with Hardhome and when the group went north to get evidence for Cersei. But the build up and so much made it where it should have been given more importance there IMO.
The second part of the mini season would then set up more of the betrayal and loss for Dany that would have led to her mindset. To be reminded of all the times she was ready to torch things but held back by her advisors. To be reminded of the loss of Drogo, Jorah, Missandei...the betrayal of Varys and Jon turning her away...more of the rift between she and the North and Sansa....all of it building inside of her.
And in the end I guess the lack of a real confrontation between she and Cersei...rather than just staring from afar at the Red Keep and Cersei watching the Dragon do its thing.
And the laughing part of me thought it would have been funny to have had Cersei and Jamie on the beach ready to get into the boat and then get roasted together...or act as if she may show mercy (before destroying the rest of the city)...only to have Bran Warg into Drogon and get his own revenge.
The first being a bit more about the night king and WWs and the dead. To me, the biggest complaint shouldn't be about Dany's turn here...but how much "winter is coming" and the long winter and all of that was built up for years only to really give it one big episode to end it. We had some other parts of it with Hardhome and when the group went north to get evidence for Cersei. But the build up and so much made it where it should have been given more importance there IMO.
The second part of the mini season would then set up more of the betrayal and loss for Dany that would have led to her mindset. To be reminded of all the times she was ready to torch things but held back by her advisors. To be reminded of the loss of Drogo, Jorah, Missandei...the betrayal of Varys and Jon turning her away...more of the rift between she and the North and Sansa....all of it building inside of her.
And in the end I guess the lack of a real confrontation between she and Cersei...rather than just staring from afar at the Red Keep and Cersei watching the Dragon do its thing.
And the laughing part of me thought it would have been funny to have had Cersei and Jamie on the beach ready to get into the boat and then get roasted together...or act as if she may show mercy (before destroying the rest of the city)...only to have Bran Warg into Drogon and get his own revenge.
It's a large complex. Of course there weren't people up in the tower standing right next to Ceresi. So the tower, tower stairs and foyer is what we saw when she fled? I'm assuming they were mostly in the courtyard and surrounding buildings that the army would have to go through to get to the tower, located somewhere in the middle, where she was located.
It makes no sense to have to let people in to the city where they already live and work.
The very reason that kings landing has a wall around the entire city is to protect it and it's people from siege.
Mile High
Footballguy
Dani knows that her father was going to use wildfire to blow up the city. She knows it was hidden under the keep. Why would she fall for luring everyone to the same place to get blown up?
