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How vulnerable is the US? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Sinn Fein
- Start date
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Don't forget if ISIS isn't stopped in Iraq, the world is doomed. If Russia isn't stopped in Ukraine, the world is doomed. Etc, etc....
mr roboto
Footballguy
Is this predicated on Internet or power down?This is the biggest issue that most folks don't realize.
[icon]
Insoxicated
Significant interruptions in Food/Water supply or other critical services for 72 hours would begin to show some pretty scary effects.Is this predicated on Internet or power down?This is the biggest issue that most folks don't realize.
Of course he did not say there weren't any issues that might doom us, just that they are all solvable. If only we just listen to Tim he can deal with them and solve them for us. Perhaps we should let him brush up on his economics before we hand all the problems over to him though.
[icon]
Insoxicated
If we sent a double-barreled diplomacy-duo of Tim and Dennis Rodman in, we could accomplish anything.
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Politician Spock
Footballguy
Manhattan, 72 hours after Huricane Sandy, began to show said effects.Significant interruptions in Food/Water supply or other critical services for 72 hours would begin to show some pretty scary effects.Is this predicated on Internet or power down?This is the biggest issue that most folks don't realize.
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timschochet
Footballguy
See, all of those are issues which worry me, especially if we don't make the right choices. But none of them spell doom, and I never wrote that any of them did. When things go wrong it just makes it a little more difficult, sometimes a lot more difficult. But there is nothing that can't be solved. I'm a cockeyed optimist.
timschochet
Footballguy
That's true. But I do read stuff. And theres lots of differing opinion out there by people who DO understand economics. And very few of them are as pessimistic about our future as you seem to be.
timschochet
Footballguy
Why would they ever do that?
Because they can? Iran is already selling to Europe and Asia in non-US currency. Give Iran a bit more power/influence in OPEC and they could vote to abandon the US dollar.
timschochet
Footballguy
I suppose they could have done that ever since the 1970s, right? My guess is that they don't because it would harm them far worse than us- sort of like if China called in all of our loans. I doubt it's anything we need worry about.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I was at first a business major in college. One of the main reasons I switched to computer engineering is because I felt like I was a very small minority among my classmates. So many of them would have sold their souls to the devil to get a job making millions on Wall Street. Many, many people in the fields of finance and economics are in their career because of their love of money, a love they hold so deep that they will defend to any depth the system which feeds them. Me, I was a numbers guy. I loved numbers. Whether it was dollars, widgets or computer digits, I didn't care. But being among people who love money wasn't something I wanted to continue, so I switched to computer engineering.
After having spent 15 or so years as a systems engineer in IT, a dear college friend of mine, who I met before I switched majors, came to me and said much of the same things I say here today. He had worked in the banking industry, left, and shared with me why. After hearing him begin to talk, I laughed at him at first, much like people here do to me today. I began to engage in debate with him desiring to disagree with him as much as possible, much like people here do to me today. Over the course of around two years this went on and on and on. In hindsight, I was going through the five stages of grief. I can clearly remember when each stage occured and what was going through my mind at the time. At the end of the process, I couldn't disagree with him anymore. He was right. The system is dying, and I had to grieve it before I could come to accept that it's dying.
You will find many people who will claim there is nothing wrong with the system, especially here. They will retort the "doomsayers" just like I did to my friend, probably even more so than I did. My income comes from IT, but to them it's their livelihood. They will defend it passionately. If they believed like I eventually came to believe, they probably wouldn't be able to continue doing what they do for a living, like my friend who opened my eyes.
BoltzNBrew
Footballguy
Everyone needs to wake up to the real threat of Islamification in America. Look at what's happening in Dearborn MI, or Dearbornistan as it's now called. These people have infiltrated the government and think they are above the US laws and Constitution. Until the world classifies Islam as the barbaric cult it is and stop recognizing it as a "Religion of Peace" the US is very vulnerable.
SWC
Bromigo
brohans this is the us of a and let me tell you what people keep saying how it is falling apart but hey here we are i will tell you what i look at all the problems and troubles we got and i say they are not problems but they are opportunities so every time we have to deal with some dumb yahoo being a bigot we just change society and get better and every time we have to deal with a soviet threat we just change the world and get better and all this doom and gloom you do not buy that for a second you just get up stand up and keep the usa moving forward take that to the bank fellow bromericans
timschochet
Footballguy
You know, Politician Spock, despite your distaste for me, I really do have a lot of respect for you. You are one of the most knowledgeable people in this forum, and I have learned a lot from you in a variety of areas, especially in economics. Even in those political discussions in which we disagree, I learn more from disagreeing with you than I do from agreeing with other people. You are usually very thoughtful in your ideas, and I appreciate that almost more than anything.Politician Spock said:
I believe that you're wrong about this; I think you're being overly pessimistic. But I acknowledge that at least part of that is HOPING that you're wrong. Of course, if you're right, it's not going to matter much any way is it? But until catastrophe strikes, I'll remain confident that it won't, and that we can solve whatever problems arise.
Politician Spock said:
Human designed systems are all subject to the Second Law of Thermodynamics just like everything else. The fundamental uncertainty of the natural world is overcome only by intelligent intervention. When societies collectively make poor decisions over time the effects compound and eventually reach a tipping point. People like Tim would argue that we haven't reached such a tipping point. I on the other hand think that the combined effects of tens of millions of illegal immigrants, a decaying infrastructure, a highly politically divided populace, multiple ongoing international crises, and hundreds of trillions of dollars of unfunded liabilities have pushed the United States passed the point of no return.
It's hard to accept paradigm changing events. A lot of people choose to simply put them out of their minds through any number of distractions. Sex, drugs, sports, entertainment, identity politics, etc... Given the extensive challenges this nation faces the insistence of its citizens to instead largely focus on relatively trivial issues such as gay marriage, birth control, and pot legalization show a populace in deep denial.
Reality always wins out in the end though. I make no claim as to how the reckoning for all our society's ills will manifest itself but I do know that one way or another it's coming.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Wait... I was here in Manhattan- did I miss some effects? Dammit. What happened?Politician Spock said:Manhattan, 72 hours after Huricane Sandy, began to show said effects.icon said:Significant interruptions in Food/Water supply or other critical services for 72 hours would begin to show some pretty scary effects.mr roboto said:Is this predicated on Internet or power down?icon said:This is the biggest issue that most folks don't realize.Sarnoff said:
timschochet
Footballguy
Changes are definitely coming, no one doubts that. But when you write "it's coming", you seem to be predicting a single catastrophic event, or even a series of catastrophic events that will end the USA as we know it. I don't see that as inevitable at all.Politician Spock said:
Human designed systems are all subject to the Second Law of Thermodynamics just like everything else. The fundamental uncertainty of the natural world is overcome only by intelligent intervention. When societies collectively make poor decisions over time the effects compound and eventually reach a tipping point. People like Tim would argue that we haven't reached such a tipping point. I on the other hand think that the combined effects of tens of millions of illegal immigrants, a decaying infrastructure, a highly politically divided populace, multiple ongoing international crises, and hundreds of trillions of dollars of unfunded liabilities have pushed the United States passed the point of no return.
It's hard to accept paradigm changing events. A lot of people choose to simply put them out of their minds through any number of distractions. Sex, drugs, sports, entertainment, identity politics, etc... Given the extensive challenges this nation faces the insistence of its citizens to instead largely focus on relatively trivial issues such as gay marriage, birth control, and pot legalization show a populace in deep denial.
Reality always wins out in the end though. I make no claim as to how the reckoning for all our society's ills will manifest itself but I do know that one way or another it's coming.
(And of course I completely reject the notion that illegal immigrants have anything to do with the coming collapse of the USA. Stuff and nonsense.)
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
joffer
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2226640/Sandy-aftermath-Shocking-photos-desperate-New-Yorkers-digging-dumpsters-food.htmlWait... I was here in Manhattan- did I miss some effects? Dammit. What happened?Politician Spock said:Manhattan, 72 hours after Huricane Sandy, began to show said effects.icon said:Significant interruptions in Food/Water supply or other critical services for 72 hours would begin to show some pretty scary effects.mr roboto said:Is this predicated on Internet or power down?icon said:This is the biggest issue that most folks don't realize.Sarnoff said:
Your response is pretty thoughtful, but I still do not think there is anyway 1000 mini attacks would destroy the economy. There would certainly be a major disruption in all systems, but eventually things would right themselves to a new way of thinking.[icon] said:I think I made it pretty clear that this was highly doubtful that it could be pulled off... but I wanted to address a few things:meatwad1 said:[icon] said:
Dude...that would never happen. They would be able to get off their first attack and then everybody and their mother even remotely associated with terrorists, (I am talking even at the level of skin color) would be rounded up and put into internment camps. First off, our police are pretty much militarized now, so they have the equipment to deal with this, secondly I do not think you realize just how many people own guns in this country. It would get real ugly real quick. Next, you have to think about who would give clearance for an attack such as this. The people who live in middle eastern countries know that we would automatically destroy and then occupy any country that is even remotely connected to what you speak of.
In short, this would never happen.
1) "first attack then in camps" - Let's say it's 10,000 guys in ~1000 cells. 1000 individual attacks ranging from small scale biochem / bombings with a couple mid-scale attacks thrown in for good measure. That alone would cripple the economy (which is already in a tenuous position).
2) "Police are militarized and can deal with this" - Response to the initial wave of attacks would completely overwhelm police/fire units and guard deployment would be tied up in placating the masses, fighting looting, and abating civil unrest. The attackers would need 1-2 days to reset for another wave of attacks or to rendezvous at footholds to begin insurgent-style attacks ala middle east style.
3) "who would give clearance" Al Qaeda and it's affiliates are not tied to any particular nation/state and benefit from destabilization of traditional political powers in the mid-east. As we learned post 9/11... retaliation against a country does little to nothing to actually counter a strike like this.
4) "People have guns" I agree here that civilians would be a reasonable deterrent and force of suppression in this case... however disorganized individuals with lack of any real intel would be less effective than you might think against a reasonably well coordinated attack.
Bottom line: They wouldn't need to "take over" America to achieve the objective. That's crazy to think that could be achieved on any reasonable level. However, even dozens if not hundreds of coordinated micro-strikes would cripple us from a resource/economic perspective. Anything achieved via the secondary wave would be gravy, IMO.
With thousands of micro-cells the scale of operations would be below the radar compared to mass scale attacks... yet each of these cells would be able to inflict significant human and infrastructure damage. Would they all be successful? Of course not. But with the "drug pipeline approach", even at a 50-75% success rate, you're having significant success.
There are currently 3MM muslims legally living in the US... (about 25% are of arab decent). I am NOT implying that muslim = terrorist... but let's assume a radicalization rate of only 1%. That's about 30k individuals. That's not even counting what are likely hundreds if not thousands of shady guys already here illegally. If 1% seems high, note that one study found that ~7% of muslim's globally are considered "radicals" due to finding the 9/11 attacks "completely justified". Factor in the likely higher rate in the US due to it being the primary target (large numbers likely enter illegally with express purpose of harm).
The biggest challenge would be communication between the cells. However with TOR / Darkweb / IM Clients (Kik, etc) and advances in encryption... there are simply too many channels for the NSA et al to effectively monitor.
Again... I think something like this is highly unlikely. But if I were spearheading this sort of thing, that would be the approach I would take.
DISCLAIMER TO NSA: Hai!I'm not a terrorist strategerizer... but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
We are way too powerful for anyone to take on in a 'game over' type scenario. Even a true power like China could never defeat us for the simple matter of geography. They are so compact in terms of population and natural resources that simply bombing the crap out of their rice fields would totally destabalize their society on a permanent basis. Even with 1000 attacks, there is plenty of land to rebuild on, to move people around to etc.
Also, they would never be able to time it all right, even when they did 9-11, they screwed up the timing. It took about 30 mins for the Navy to release the fighter jets to drop the remaining plane that was going to hit whatever its target was.
One more note, of all the countries collective mental pathologies; we are for sure the craziest. Look at history. Our country was born out shoving it up the a$$ of one the greatest powers the world had ever seen. Through multiple other uber-violent and even peaceful revolutions we reinvented the fabric of our nation, and we have shown that we actually have the balls to use nuclear weapons if the need arises. Not only that, but we don't just have a few nukes that we can commission. We have them everywhere around the world. Anyone that lays down the gauntlet like that is simply asking to be destroyed. It would change our system for sure, but would annihilate their entire culture.
El Floppo
Footballguy
lol.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2226640/Sandy-aftermath-Shocking-photos-desperate-New-Yorkers-digging-dumpsters-food.htmlWait... I was here in Manhattan- did I miss some effects? Dammit. What happened?Politician Spock said:Manhattan, 72 hours after Huricane Sandy, began to show said effects.icon said:Significant interruptions in Food/Water supply or other critical services for 72 hours would begin to show some pretty scary effects.mr roboto said:Is this predicated on Internet or power down?icon said:This is the biggest issue that most folks don't realize.Sarnoff said:
yeah- so supermarkets started throwing out their food, and people took advantage.
but good that a rag from the UK is reporting the news on this with screaming, misleading headlines.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Not very concerned. The powers that be aren't interested in upsetting the apple cart. They're making too much money and too many Americans don't care. Putin, China......these guys want to make money. They aren't crossing the line. The Palestinians have potential..... but other Middle Easterners don't even like the Palestinians....so they aren't going to let them get too out of line.
It's North Korea. NK is the one who can put the world on TILT. They're not accountable nor have ties to any other countries way of life or ideology, I don't think there's any interest in assimilating and megalomaniacs run their country.
It's North Korea. NK is the one who can put the world on TILT. They're not accountable nor have ties to any other countries way of life or ideology, I don't think there's any interest in assimilating and megalomaniacs run their country.
Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
We are going to f**k around and get Ebola over here.......
HellToupee
Footballguy
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I have always wondered why when we had the big terror scare back after 9/11, there weren't more small clock tower type attacks. Looks at the two guys in Boston. They shut down an entire city and had people ####ting their pants to the point of allowing non-warrant door to door searches. And they worked mostly alone. Imagine what even 100 guys could do. It's scary is right. Imagine the media firestorm if 5 of these attacks happened simultaneously. Or in quick succession in random cities.[icon] said:
Fat Nick
Footballguy
I live in rural NJ...less than 72 hours after Sandy, people were pulling guns on other people at the gas station. It was chaos. Now imagine if it wasn't a case of "NJ has no gas, but we'll get it from the rest of the east coast," and if it was instead, "Nobody has power. Anywhere. And it might not be back for a long long time..."
I'd be buying bullets and barbed wire and boarding up my house in preparation. I went through Sandy with just my wife...I now have a 1-month old. I'd be a paranoid mess if it happened again.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Fat Nick
Footballguy
Dan Gladden's Mustache
Footballguy
Yes, by all means, make this thread about Tim. Jesus H Christ you guys are ####ing obsessed.jon_mx said:
[icon]
Insoxicated
I'm not saying anyone turns the US into a wasteland. Of course people will remain. I'm not even saying they kill most people. I'm saying they upset/destroy our economic and political stability as we know it now.Your response is pretty thoughtful, but I still do not think there is anyway 1000 mini attacks would destroy the economy. There would certainly be a major disruption in all systems, but eventually things would right themselves to a new way of thinking.[icon] said:I think I made it pretty clear that this was highly doubtful that it could be pulled off... but I wanted to address a few things:meatwad1 said:[icon] said:
Dude...that would never happen. They would be able to get off their first attack and then everybody and their mother even remotely associated with terrorists, (I am talking even at the level of skin color) would be rounded up and put into internment camps. First off, our police are pretty much militarized now, so they have the equipment to deal with this, secondly I do not think you realize just how many people own guns in this country. It would get real ugly real quick. Next, you have to think about who would give clearance for an attack such as this. The people who live in middle eastern countries know that we would automatically destroy and then occupy any country that is even remotely connected to what you speak of.
In short, this would never happen.
1) "first attack then in camps" - Let's say it's 10,000 guys in ~1000 cells. 1000 individual attacks ranging from small scale biochem / bombings with a couple mid-scale attacks thrown in for good measure. That alone would cripple the economy (which is already in a tenuous position).
2) "Police are militarized and can deal with this" - Response to the initial wave of attacks would completely overwhelm police/fire units and guard deployment would be tied up in placating the masses, fighting looting, and abating civil unrest. The attackers would need 1-2 days to reset for another wave of attacks or to rendezvous at footholds to begin insurgent-style attacks ala middle east style.
3) "who would give clearance" Al Qaeda and it's affiliates are not tied to any particular nation/state and benefit from destabilization of traditional political powers in the mid-east. As we learned post 9/11... retaliation against a country does little to nothing to actually counter a strike like this.
4) "People have guns" I agree here that civilians would be a reasonable deterrent and force of suppression in this case... however disorganized individuals with lack of any real intel would be less effective than you might think against a reasonably well coordinated attack.
Bottom line: They wouldn't need to "take over" America to achieve the objective. That's crazy to think that could be achieved on any reasonable level. However, even dozens if not hundreds of coordinated micro-strikes would cripple us from a resource/economic perspective. Anything achieved via the secondary wave would be gravy, IMO.
With thousands of micro-cells the scale of operations would be below the radar compared to mass scale attacks... yet each of these cells would be able to inflict significant human and infrastructure damage. Would they all be successful? Of course not. But with the "drug pipeline approach", even at a 50-75% success rate, you're having significant success.
There are currently 3MM muslims legally living in the US... (about 25% are of arab decent). I am NOT implying that muslim = terrorist... but let's assume a radicalization rate of only 1%. That's about 30k individuals. That's not even counting what are likely hundreds if not thousands of shady guys already here illegally. If 1% seems high, note that one study found that ~7% of muslim's globally are considered "radicals" due to finding the 9/11 attacks "completely justified". Factor in the likely higher rate in the US due to it being the primary target (large numbers likely enter illegally with express purpose of harm).
The biggest challenge would be communication between the cells. However with TOR / Darkweb / IM Clients (Kik, etc) and advances in encryption... there are simply too many channels for the NSA et al to effectively monitor.
Again... I think something like this is highly unlikely. But if I were spearheading this sort of thing, that would be the approach I would take.
DISCLAIMER TO NSA: Hai!
We are way too powerful for anyone to take on in a 'game over' type scenario. Even a true power like China could never defeat us for the simple matter of geography. They are so compact in terms of population and natural resources that simply bombing the crap out of their rice fields would totally destabalize their society on a permanent basis. Even with 1000 attacks, there is plenty of land to rebuild on, to move people around to etc.
Also, they would never be able to time it all right, even when they did 9-11, they screwed up the timing. It took about 30 mins for the Navy to release the fighter jets to drop the remaining plane that was going to hit whatever its target was.
One more note, of all the countries collective mental pathologies; we are for sure the craziest. Look at history. Our country was born out shoving it up the ### of one the greatest powers the world had ever seen. Through multiple other uber-violent and even peaceful revolutions we reinvented the fabric of our nation, and we have shown that we actually have the balls to use nuclear weapons if the need arises. Not only that, but we don't just have a few nukes that we can commission. We have them everywhere around the world. Anyone that lays down the gauntlet like that is simply asking to be destroyed. It would change our system for sure, but would annihilate their entire culture.
Timing involving planes has to be exact because there are a very finite number of them in the air and it's not hard to take roll call via radio and figure out which planes are suspect.
Even if there were 300-500 strikes spread out around the nation.... they could go on over the course of hours if not days and it would be next to impossible to identify and stop if they're "smart" about site selection (ie not hitting all schools, or all sports arenas, etc).
I agree any nation that was behind something like this would get smoked off the map... but what if it was "Al Qaeda" or similiar org pulling the strings... who do we bomb? They're interwoven with civilians in half a dozen nations throughout the Mideast (and beyond)...
Again not saying it's likely... but it's a lot more possible than you think IMO.
[icon]
Insoxicated
Exactly. Two #######s in with a duffle bag. Agreed 5 scattered around (BOS, NYC, SFO, DC, CHI) would be brutal. What about 20? 50? 100? More?
The worst would be hitting random stuff.. not just major cities... little league softball tournaments.. shopping malls... banks....grocery stores...water treatment facilities....power plant or two. Hit cities as well as suburbia. Market would collapse... riots would break out... pandemonium IMO.
Fat Nick
Footballguy
I think we've agreed on this in another thread, and I know I've been saying this for a long time. It's easy to just avoid the Capitol, NYC, Pentagon, etc. It's a lot tougher to be afraid of going to the store or Starbucks.
[icon]
Insoxicated
Yep... in a "perfect" world you'd open with a big target or two to get everyone's attention then cascading smaller targets to give the "OMG I can't even leave the house" cumulative effect.
I think we've agreed on this in another thread, and I know I've been saying this for a long time. It's easy to just avoid the Capitol, NYC, Pentagon, etc. It's a lot tougher to be afraid of going to the store or Starbucks.
Horrifying to think about if someone could pull it off.
skol asylum
Footballguy
Biggest threat to the US is populism.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Biggest threat to the U.S. is paranoid dooshcanoes like [i####]
Some of these knobs actually get elected.
Some of these knobs actually get elected.
lol....you forget that in our history, we have had no problem with rounding up entire cultures and either exterminating them or keeping them penned up for long periods of time. If people started to get out of line, the tide would turn real quick. Look at the border thing right now...people are starting to get real ginned up. All the pols talk a good game about an immigration bill, but now that the chips are down, they are all scurrying away.BoltzNBrew said:
We are a violent people.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Yep... in a "perfect" world you'd open with a big target or two to get everyone's attention then cascading smaller targets to give the "OMG I can't even leave the house" cumulative effect.
I think we've agreed on this in another thread, and I know I've been saying this for a long time. It's easy to just avoid the Capitol, NYC, Pentagon, etc. It's a lot tougher to be afraid of going to the store or Starbucks.
Horrifying to think about if someone could pull it off.
There would be chaos for awhile, pandemonium.....and then the dust would settle and we'd go on; with the intent to make sure that doesn't happen again.
Nobody is going to be afraid to go to Starbucks after we blame (insert Muslim nation here), exterminate half their population, and then take everything they have. 9-11 was a 3000 person job and look at the 10 year, double front war that ensued!!! What you guys are talking about would never happen, we would flat out just nuke somebody, kill all leaders, whether innocent or not and everybody knows this.Yep... in a "perfect" world you'd open with a big target or two to get everyone's attention then cascading smaller targets to give the "OMG I can't even leave the house" cumulative effect.
I think we've agreed on this in another thread, and I know I've been saying this for a long time. It's easy to just avoid the Capitol, NYC, Pentagon, etc. It's a lot tougher to be afraid of going to the store or Starbucks.
Horrifying to think about if someone could pull it off.
timschochet
Footballguy
Very true.
[icon]
Insoxicated
...annnnnd Yippy the wonder puppy is back to nipping on my heels.Biggest threat to the U.S. is paranoid dooshcanoes like [i####]
Some of these knobs actually get elected.
Made it pretty clear the thread is highly unlikely and purely hypothetical. Not that youd actually see that through your miserable drunken fog of an existence, though. Carry on, Yippy.
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Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
You got you glock ready for the reckoning Kenny Powers? Lol, you're a paranoid loon....annnnnd Yippy the wonder puppy is back to nipping on my heels.Biggest threat to the U.S. is paranoid dooshcanoes like [i####]
Some of these knobs actually get elected.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Huh, I always thought Icon was more of a hipster than a doomsday prepper.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
The blacks and Muuuuuslims are coming! Take cover!
Reaper
Footballguy
I honestly think we're ####'d.....
That said.. I was surprised to hear that this technology was in use.... My dad had a stress test where they needed to inject radioactive dye (or whatever).... He was pulled over within minutes of leaving the Doc and the Cop said he set off Alarms....
That said.. I was surprised to hear that this technology was in use.... My dad had a stress test where they needed to inject radioactive dye (or whatever).... He was pulled over within minutes of leaving the Doc and the Cop said he set off Alarms....
El Floppo
Footballguy
Gotta say- I'm still a bit surprised nobody has made an attempt on the NYC subways, or Times Square (ok... the one attempt failed).
For the subways, one guy with one of those Boston Marathon backpacks would shake the #### out of the city. 2 or more in any kind of syncopated way... not good. Police have random (to me) checkpoints at subway entrances where they- I assume- profile people to check their bags. Maybe that's working..
For the subways, one guy with one of those Boston Marathon backpacks would shake the #### out of the city. 2 or more in any kind of syncopated way... not good. Police have random (to me) checkpoints at subway entrances where they- I assume- profile people to check their bags. Maybe that's working..
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