Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
The US (or UN) is never going to be able to make the Middle East stable or peaceful.Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
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When do we go in and wipe out ISIS? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Otis
- Start date
The US (or UN) is never going to be able to make the Middle East stable or peaceful.
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
There will always be "war", if not military then financial or economic ones. I know which kind I prefer.
https://www.facebook.com/pizzahutkurdistanregion
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fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Prob an unpopular opinion, but we should've just left Saddam there.
Now there is no solution. Right or left, both sides have extreme flaws.
Boots on ground = lives lost (a lot more than a few who are there on humanitarian missions), economical disaster, and once we wipe them off another group comes along to replace these ####os.
Air strikes / drones = They continue to grow, kill, & terrorize. Eventually a Middle Eastern group will stand up and challenge them, but it'll be a long drawn out disaster.
Should've just left the animal running the zoo in Iraq in charge. At least that ####### had #### under control. Yea, he killed a bunch of people, I get it, but that appears to be the only way to control #### over there, so it is what it is.
Now there is no solution. Right or left, both sides have extreme flaws.
Boots on ground = lives lost (a lot more than a few who are there on humanitarian missions), economical disaster, and once we wipe them off another group comes along to replace these ####os.
Air strikes / drones = They continue to grow, kill, & terrorize. Eventually a Middle Eastern group will stand up and challenge them, but it'll be a long drawn out disaster.
Should've just left the animal running the zoo in Iraq in charge. At least that ####### had #### under control. Yea, he killed a bunch of people, I get it, but that appears to be the only way to control #### over there, so it is what it is.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
I spent a bit of time in Kurdistan, they are the most normal populace in the region.There will always be "war", if not military then financial or economic ones. I know which kind I prefer.
https://www.facebook.com/pizzahutkurdistanregion
Otis
Footballguy
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Otis
Footballguy
We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead.
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
Would you listen to a guy who doesn't know how to use a weed whacker?
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
But if all you do is chase them underground while you're sitting there with 100,000s of men have you really beaten them?
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
I think we had quadruple down or more. It was called "the surge".We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead.
Otis
Footballguy
Yeah but then we left. And then after we left they started chopping off heads on TV.I think we had quadruple down or more. It was called "the surge".We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
We have some big bases in the Middle East. Google it.We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead.
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
Wait. Didn't you move to a new house after you lost the fight with the raccoons? I will bet they will show up at your new place, just you wait.Yeah but then we left. And then after we left they started chopping off heads on TV.I think we had quadruple down or more. It was called "the surge".We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead.
Fennis
Footballguy
I'm gonna go with this is enough military basesWe have some big bases in the Middle East. Google it.We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead.
http://www.juancole.com/images/2012/02/bases3.png
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Quite a few of those no longer exist or are manned by less than 50 people, but there are some MAJOR operating locations in the Middle East where we maintain a presence. Iraq wanted us out, and we left. That's how it should work.I'm gonna go with this is enough military basesWe have some big bases in the Middle East. Google it.We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead.
http://www.juancole.com/images/2012/02/bases3.png
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Aren't those the same dude?
Wait, what?
Allah and the Christian God are the same dude also. This is the only thing we can all agree on I suppose.
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
What happened to our old bases in Iraq - this one was supposed to be turned into a civilian airport:http://abcnews.go.com/International/ghosts-us-troops-left-kirkuk-base-iraqi-army/story?id=24161191Quite a few of those no longer exist or are manned by less than 50 people, but there are some MAJOR operating locations in the Middle East where we maintain a presence. Iraq wanted us out, and we left. That's how it should work.I'm gonna go with this is enough military basesWe have some big bases in the Middle East. Google it.We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead.
http://www.juancole.com/images/2012/02/bases3.png
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Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
What happened to our old bases in Iraq:Quite a few of those no longer exist or are manned by less than 50 people, but there are some MAJOR operating locations in the Middle East where we maintain a presence. Iraq wanted us out, and we left. That's how it should work.I'm gonna go with this is enough military basesWe have some big bases in the Middle East. Google it.We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead.
http://www.juancole.com/images/2012/02/bases3.png
http://abcnews.go.com/International/ghosts-us-troops-left-kirkuk-base-iraqi-army/story?id=24161191
My SF buddy predicted this three years before we left. He helped train those clowns, he has some great stories.
Then where's all of this "we go in" and "let's do this" nonsense coming from?
Personally, I'm not willing to die over this sort of crap. So I'm not going to ask someone else to.
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The General
Footballguy
How about we sit this one out.
I'm sure if we wait this out another bunch of lunatics will pop up over there and replace ISIS.
I'm sure if we wait this out another bunch of lunatics will pop up over there and replace ISIS.
seahawk 17
Footballguy
Here is the problem...we need to either be all in and finish the job, or stay out of it.
Probably to simplistic, but it's seems pretty black and white to me.
Mark Davis
Footballguy
This all goes back to why in the world did we want to take out Saddam? He was a counterweight to Iran and he had his own interests at heart, not religious fanaticism. Sure he was brutal, but if you like him, you'll love who eventually follows. It takes someone brutal to be in charge and keep things together. Who are we better off with, someone who is after personal gain and power or some one/group who is/are a religious fanatic? I'd argue someone who is in it for personal gain, no matter how evil can be coerced or deterred to an extent. We can't win by power in the ME, we can't force democracy or choose their leaders. Our best hope is counterweights so that the first enemy the bad guys have is each other and not us. We removed Saddam and it created this vacuum. I have wondered why we are so gung ho to topple Asaad. It seems to me he is the counterweight to ISIS to an extent right now. If Asaad goes, we really need to be realistic about who/what comes after him. Not just in terms of being a potential foe, but having any ability to negotiate or reason with them at all.
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
seahawk 17
Footballguy
If you have a organized group, with an agenda and resources to carry out said agenda...you pick them apart until they are no longer organized and/or a threat.
Officer Pete Malloy
Footballguy
Riversco
Footballguy
Iran has sponsored the murder of Americans and other nationalities for decades. Rebels have been killing Americans in the Philippines for decades. North Korea imprisons Americans and has one on trial right now. What makes 3 beheadings in Iraq so different that we need to form an international coalition and bomb them?
Why didn't we form a coalition to bomb the Philippine rebels after they used a land mine to kill several Americans in 2009? I don't see the difference really.
Why didn't we form a coalition to bomb the Philippine rebels after they used a land mine to kill several Americans in 2009? I don't see the difference really.
Otis
Footballguy
This is a very public challenge.
I think we should answer it with "oh? OK. #youaskedforit"
NutterButter
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
johnnycakes
Footballguy
I suggested something similar weeks ago here and didn't get much love for it. This business of going in, patching things up and leaving is for losers. And just putting bases elsewhere in the Middle East in friendly territory like Qatar, is no substitute for occupying a hostile territory and ####### them 'til they love us.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
So, reanimate Saddam's corpse and let Zombie Saddam loose on them? I'm not sure that is sound foreign policy, but that, my friend, is a solid plot for a Bmovie.
Riversco
Footballguy
Saddam AND Gaffadi for that matter. Both Iraq and Libya are in chaos right now.
Riversco
Footballguy
Its a mystery to me why democracy takes root in some places but not others. We fought the Korean war, and democracy took root in South Korea. We lost the Vietnam War, and after it was over democracy and free market policies actually took root in Vietnam. The British Empire got democracy to take root in Hong Kong and India. But then Libya, Iran, and Iraq are a mess.
It has become a bit more complicated than that. Remember that in order to 'wipe out' Al Qaeda' we had start a pretty massive war and occupy two other countries. Add in the fact that nobody, especially the British, trust President Party, and I do not think that is a good recipe for wiping out anyone.
Sending advisers and drones to surgically strike will do nothing. War means you are either out or in. First and foremost, I do not think people in our own country have an appetite for any more war. It is sad that those people are losing their lives, but then again they are the ones risking their lives in the first place. Good people are killed all the time in ### backwards foreign lands, that does not mean we should send in troops.
If you go to war and do not have the stomach to kill everyone in order to gain compliance, you will always lose. That is why we lost Vietnam, that is why history will show that we lost in Iraq and Afghanistan. Should we march in and kill everyone for these three people. Even if they kill a hundred more should we? Killing everyone is the only way to win. That is how it works in war. Are you down with that? I'm not.
It is inherent to the religion. Democracy is not consistent with Islamic beliefs. But stating the truth is bigoted, so forget I said it.
Fennis
Footballguy
Libya and Iraq were in chaos under Hussein and Gaddafi. The difference was it didn't involve the US for much of it. Lets not harken back to some golden age of stability that didnt exist.Saddam AND Gaffadi for that matter. Both Iraq and Libya are in chaos right now.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Hmmmm. It's almost as if Iran, Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc. have something in common that differentiates them from other countries and that is uniquely hostile to democracy and enlightenment values in general. Whatever could it be?
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
We tried that in Iraq for the better part of a decade and left with absolutely nothing to show for it. Occupation worked in Japan because the Japanese acknowledged their defeat and wanted to get on with the business of rebuilding the country and living their lives. For a lot of Iraqis, by contrast, toppling Saddam was just an opening to start killing their neighbors.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I don't necessarily support large-scale military activities directed at ISIS, but how come people never make this same argument about law enforcement? Lots of people have been put in jail or even executed for various crimes, and you never hear about their family members attacking the government as a result. So I'm not sure why these nutjobs should get a pass when they go around beheading journalists and aid workers.
timschochet
Footballguy
Japan and Germany were rather unique situations. The Germans loved us because we weren't the Russians. Japan was docile because they are a docile people and their emperor told them not to resist. If the people of a country are hostile to your occupation, it's unsustainable (unless you're willing to commit all sorts of ugly war crimes that is, which we are not).
timschochet
Footballguy
A good way, IMO, to think about it is this: ISIS is the Viet Cong. The government in Baghdad is Diem's government in Saigon.
Fennis
Footballguy
First of all, Vietnam is not a democracy by any definition. When you look at the list of countries ranked Not Free (bottom ranking) by the Freedom in the World 2014 index I don't see a pattern, that you do.
Afghanistan
Algeria Angola Azerbaijan Bahrain Belarus Brunei Burma Cambodia Cameroon Central African Republic Chad China Congo, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Republic of the Cuba Djibouti Egypt Equatorial Guinea Eritrea Ethiopia Gabon Gambia Gaza Strip Guinea-Bissau Iran Iraq Jordan Kashmir Kazakhstan Korea, North Laos Nagorno-Karabakh Oman Palestine Qatar Russia Rwanda Saudi Arabia Somalia South Ossetia South Sudan Sudan Swaziland Syria Tajikistan Thailand Tibet Transnistria Turkmenistan United Arab Emirates Uzbekistan Vietnam West Bank Western Sahara Yemen Zimbabwe
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Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
I think the better example for what you've described here is if Canada got fed up with all the violence in Detroit and decided to go in bombing neighborhoods. I'm sure they'd get a lot of criminals in the process, but would also kill hundreds of innocent people and there would be no due process for those taken out. As a country we obviously wouldn't stand for it.
You are right though that the answer to this problem is ultimately governance, it's just not governance we can provide.
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