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Otis

When do we go in and wipe out ISIS?

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If we didn't do it with 1.7 trillion spent and 130,000+ troops on the ground for six years when they were known as 'Al Qaeda in Iraq' what makes you think we can do it now?

Are we supposed to put 500,000 troops in Iraq/Syria and leave them there forever?

We pretty much wiped out Al-Qaeda Iraq as an operational enemy. Then a new war broke out and they were back up again doing what they do. They are like pirate radio, only with throwing people off cliffs and such.

:goodposting: The US (or UN) is never going to be able to make the Middle East stable or peaceful.

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If we didn't do it with 1.7 trillion spent and 130,000+ troops on the ground for six years when they were known as 'Al Qaeda in Iraq' what makes you think we can do it now?

Are we supposed to put 500,000 troops in Iraq/Syria and leave them there forever?

We pretty much wiped out Al-Qaeda Iraq as an operational enemy. Then a new war broke out and they were back up again doing what they do. They are like pirate radio, only with throwing people off cliffs and such.

:goodposting: The US (or UN) is never going to be able to make the Middle East stable or peaceful.

There will always be "war", if not military then financial or economic ones. I know which kind I prefer.

https://www.facebook.com/pizzahutkurdistanregion

Edited by Rohn Jambo

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Prob an unpopular opinion, but we should've just left Saddam there.

Now there is no solution. Right or left, both sides have extreme flaws.

Boots on ground = lives lost (a lot more than a few who are there on humanitarian missions), economical disaster, and once we wipe them off another group comes along to replace these ####os.

Air strikes / drones = They continue to grow, kill, & terrorize. Eventually a Middle Eastern group will stand up and challenge them, but it'll be a long drawn out disaster.

Should've just left the animal running the zoo in Iraq in charge. At least that ####### had #### under control. Yea, he killed a bunch of people, I get it, but that appears to be the only way to control #### over there, so it is what it is.

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If we didn't do it with 1.7 trillion spent and 130,000+ troops on the ground for six years when they were known as 'Al Qaeda in Iraq' what makes you think we can do it now?

Are we supposed to put 500,000 troops in Iraq/Syria and leave them there forever?

We pretty much wiped out Al-Qaeda Iraq as an operational enemy. Then a new war broke out and they were back up again doing what they do. They are like pirate radio, only with throwing people off cliffs and such.

:goodposting: The US (or UN) is never going to be able to make the Middle East stable or peaceful.

There will always be "war", if not military then financial or economic ones. I know which kind I prefer.

https://www.facebook.com/pizzahutkurdistanregion

I spent a bit of time in Kurdistan, they are the most normal populace in the region.

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Seems like we should have hit them when they were still just a JV squad.

Pretty good posting here.

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

What?

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

What?

We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead. :shrug:

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

What?

Would you listen to a guy who doesn't know how to use a weed whacker?

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If we didn't do it with 1.7 trillion spent and 130,000+ troops on the ground for six years when they were known as 'Al Qaeda in Iraq' what makes you think we can do it now?

Are we supposed to put 500,000 troops in Iraq/Syria and leave them there forever?

We pretty much wiped out Al-Qaeda Iraq as an operational enemy. Then a new war broke out and they were back up again doing what they do. They are like pirate radio, only with throwing people off cliffs and such.

But if all you do is chase them underground while you're sitting there with 100,000s of men have you really beaten them?

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

What?

We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead. :shrug:

I think we had quadruple down or more. It was called "the surge".

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

What?

We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead. :shrug:

I think we had quadruple down or more. It was called "the surge".

Yeah but then we left. And then after we left they started chopping off heads on TV.

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

What?

We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead. :shrug:

We have some big bases in the Middle East. Google it.

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

What?

We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead. :shrug:

I think we had quadruple down or more. It was called "the surge".

Yeah but then we left. And then after we left they started chopping off heads on TV.

Wait. Didn't you move to a new house after you lost the fight with the raccoons? I will bet they will show up at your new place, just you wait.

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

What?

We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead. :shrug:

We have some big bases in the Middle East. Google it.

I'm gonna go with this is enough military bases

http://www.juancole.com/images/2012/02/bases3.png

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

What?

We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead. :shrug:

We have some big bases in the Middle East. Google it.

I'm gonna go with this is enough military bases

http://www.juancole.com/images/2012/02/bases3.png

Quite a few of those no longer exist or are manned by less than 50 people, but there are some MAJOR operating locations in the Middle East where we maintain a presence. Iraq wanted us out, and we left. That's how it should work.

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This is why God and the baby jesus gave America nukes.

Aren't those the same dude? :oldunsure:

Wait, what?

Allah and the Christian God are the same dude also. This is the only thing we can all agree on I suppose.

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

What?

We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead. :shrug:

We have some big bases in the Middle East. Google it.

I'm gonna go with this is enough military bases

http://www.juancole.com/images/2012/02/bases3.png

Quite a few of those no longer exist or are manned by less than 50 people, but there are some MAJOR operating locations in the Middle East where we maintain a presence. Iraq wanted us out, and we left. That's how it should work.

What happened to our old bases in Iraq - this one was supposed to be turned into a civilian airport:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/ghosts-us-troops-left-kirkuk-base-iraqi-army/story?id=24161191

Edited by Rohn Jambo

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

What?

We pulled out most of our folks from Iraq etc. right? Maybe we should have just doubled down instead. :shrug:

We have some big bases in the Middle East. Google it.

I'm gonna go with this is enough military bases

http://www.juancole.com/images/2012/02/bases3.png

Quite a few of those no longer exist or are manned by less than 50 people, but there are some MAJOR operating locations in the Middle East where we maintain a presence. Iraq wanted us out, and we left. That's how it should work.

What happened to our old bases in Iraq:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/ghosts-us-troops-left-kirkuk-base-iraqi-army/story?id=24161191

ISIS never came anywhere near the base. But the Iraqi troops fled anyway.

Before they ran, they looted the base.

My SF buddy predicted this three years before we left. He helped train those clowns, he has some great stories.

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The third? I bet more than 3 people die if we engage in military action.

I bet way, way more than 3, you're right. So let's go do this.

Let's? You're volunteering your services?

Oh lord no. I wouldn't last a week.

Then where's all of this "we go in" and "let's do this" nonsense coming from?

Personally, I'm not willing to die over this sort of crap. So I'm not going to ask someone else to.

Edited by DrJ
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How about we sit this one out.

I'm sure if we wait this out another bunch of lunatics will pop up over there and replace ISIS.

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These cockroaches need exterminated. Every single one of them. If you don't wipe out the whole nest, they just pack up and move and then grow again.

Here is the problem...we need to either be all in and finish the job, or stay out of it.

Probably to simplistic, but it's seems pretty black and white to me.

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This all goes back to why in the world did we want to take out Saddam? He was a counterweight to Iran and he had his own interests at heart, not religious fanaticism. Sure he was brutal, but if you like him, you'll love who eventually follows. It takes someone brutal to be in charge and keep things together. Who are we better off with, someone who is after personal gain and power or some one/group who is/are a religious fanatic? I'd argue someone who is in it for personal gain, no matter how evil can be coerced or deterred to an extent. We can't win by power in the ME, we can't force democracy or choose their leaders. Our best hope is counterweights so that the first enemy the bad guys have is each other and not us. We removed Saddam and it created this vacuum. I have wondered why we are so gung ho to topple Asaad. It seems to me he is the counterweight to ISIS to an extent right now. If Asaad goes, we really need to be realistic about who/what comes after him. Not just in terms of being a potential foe, but having any ability to negotiate or reason with them at all.

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These cockroaches need exterminated. Every single one of them. If you don't wipe out the whole nest, they just pack up and move and then grow again.

Here is the problem...we need to either be all in and finish the job, or stay out of it.

Probably to simplistic, but it's seems pretty black and white to me.

Finish what job? Killing every single Muslim extremist in the world?

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These cockroaches need exterminated. Every single one of them. If you don't wipe out the whole nest, they just pack up and move and then grow again.

Here is the problem...we need to either be all in and finish the job, or stay out of it.

Probably to simplistic, but it's seems pretty black and white to me.

Finish what job? Killing every single Muslim extremist in the world?

If you have a organized group, with an agenda and resources to carry out said agenda...you pick them apart until they are no longer organized and/or a threat.

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These cockroaches need exterminated. Every single one of them. If you don't wipe out the whole nest, they just pack up and move and then grow again.

Here is the problem...we need to either be all in and finish the job, or stay out of it.

Probably to simplistic, but it's seems pretty black and white to me.

Finish what job? Killing every single Muslim extremist in the world?

If you have a organized group, with an agenda and resources to carry out said agenda...you pick them apart until they are no longer organized and/or a threat.

That is NEVER going to happen with Middle Eastern religious extremists/terrorists.

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Iran has sponsored the murder of Americans and other nationalities for decades. Rebels have been killing Americans in the Philippines for decades. North Korea imprisons Americans and has one on trial right now. What makes 3 beheadings in Iraq so different that we need to form an international coalition and bomb them?

Why didn't we form a coalition to bomb the Philippine rebels after they used a land mine to kill several Americans in 2009? I don't see the difference really.

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Iran has sponsored the murder of Americans and other nationalities for decades. Rebels have been killing Americans in the Philippines for decades. North Korea imprisons Americans and has one on trial right now. What makes 3 beheadings in Iraq so different that we need to form an international coalition and bomb them?

Why didn't we form a coalition to bomb the Philippine rebels after they used a land mine to kill several Americans in 2009? I don't see the difference really.

This is a very public challenge.

I think we should answer it with "oh? OK. #youaskedforit"

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Prob an unpopular opinion, but we should've just left Saddam there.

Now there is no solution. Right or left, both sides have extreme flaws.

Boots on ground = lives lost (a lot more than a few who are there on humanitarian missions), economical disaster, and once we wipe them off another group comes along to replace these ####os.

Air strikes / drones = They continue to grow, kill, & terrorize. Eventually a Middle Eastern group will stand up and challenge them, but it'll be a long drawn out disaster.

Should've just left the animal running the zoo in Iraq in charge. At least that ####### had #### under control. Yea, he killed a bunch of people, I get it, but that appears to be the only way to control #### over there, so it is what it is.

Worst decision eva to get rid of that guy.

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

I suggested something similar weeks ago here and didn't get much love for it. This business of going in, patching things up and leaving is for losers. And just putting bases elsewhere in the Middle East in friendly territory like Qatar, is no substitute for occupying a hostile territory and ####### them 'til they love us.

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Prob an unpopular opinion, but we should've just left Saddam there.

Now there is no solution. Right or left, both sides have extreme flaws.

Boots on ground = lives lost (a lot more than a few who are there on humanitarian missions), economical disaster, and once we wipe them off another group comes along to replace these ####os.

Air strikes / drones = They continue to grow, kill, & terrorize. Eventually a Middle Eastern group will stand up and challenge them, but it'll be a long drawn out disaster.

Should've just left the animal running the zoo in Iraq in charge. At least that ####### had #### under control. Yea, he killed a bunch of people, I get it, but that appears to be the only way to control #### over there, so it is what it is.

So, reanimate Saddam's corpse and let Zombie Saddam loose on them? I'm not sure that is sound foreign policy, but that, my friend, is a solid plot for a Bmovie.

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And the British are kinda distracted by the Scottish Independence Movement right now.

And Kate is pregnant with #2!!!!!

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sadly, this does not appear to have an end in sight, until it's Christians v. Muslims - The Last Crusade.

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This is what happens when you think you're right in toppling Arab dictators thinking some sort of democratic movement will spread.

:goodposting:

Saddam AND Gaffadi for that matter. Both Iraq and Libya are in chaos right now.

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Its a mystery to me why democracy takes root in some places but not others. We fought the Korean war, and democracy took root in South Korea. We lost the Vietnam War, and after it was over democracy and free market policies actually took root in Vietnam. The British Empire got democracy to take root in Hong Kong and India. But then Libya, Iran, and Iraq are a mess.

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Third on-camera beheading today, this time of a British aid worker. So much for the Brits sitting on the sidelines and rolling their eyes at those melodramatic Americans...

If a bully takes your lunch money three times, at what point do you step up? We pretty much have to step in now, with a European coalition, and clean house, no?

It has become a bit more complicated than that. Remember that in order to 'wipe out' Al Qaeda' we had start a pretty massive war and occupy two other countries. Add in the fact that nobody, especially the British, trust President Party, and I do not think that is a good recipe for wiping out anyone.

Sending advisers and drones to surgically strike will do nothing. War means you are either out or in. First and foremost, I do not think people in our own country have an appetite for any more war. It is sad that those people are losing their lives, but then again they are the ones risking their lives in the first place. Good people are killed all the time in ### backwards foreign lands, that does not mean we should send in troops.

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Iran has sponsored the murder of Americans and other nationalities for decades. Rebels have been killing Americans in the Philippines for decades. North Korea imprisons Americans and has one on trial right now. What makes 3 beheadings in Iraq so different that we need to form an international coalition and bomb them?

Why didn't we form a coalition to bomb the Philippine rebels after they used a land mine to kill several Americans in 2009? I don't see the difference really.

This is a very public challenge.

I think we should answer it with "oh? OK. #youaskedforit"

If you go to war and do not have the stomach to kill everyone in order to gain compliance, you will always lose. That is why we lost Vietnam, that is why history will show that we lost in Iraq and Afghanistan. Should we march in and kill everyone for these three people. Even if they kill a hundred more should we? Killing everyone is the only way to win. That is how it works in war. Are you down with that? I'm not.

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Its a mystery to me why democracy takes root in some places but not others. We fought the Korean war, and democracy took root in South Korea. We lost the Vietnam War, and after it was over democracy and free market policies actually took root in Vietnam. The British Empire got democracy to take root in Hong Kong and India. But then Libya, Iran, and Iraq are a mess.

It is inherent to the religion. Democracy is not consistent with Islamic beliefs. But stating the truth is bigoted, so forget I said it.

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This is what happens when you think you're right in toppling Arab dictators thinking some sort of democratic movement will spread.

:goodposting:

Saddam AND Gaffadi for that matter. Both Iraq and Libya are in chaos right now.

Libya and Iraq were in chaos under Hussein and Gaddafi. The difference was it didn't involve the US for much of it. Lets not harken back to some golden age of stability that didnt exist.

Edited by Fennis

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Its a mystery to me why democracy takes root in some places but not others. We fought the Korean war, and democracy took root in South Korea. We lost the Vietnam War, and after it was over democracy and free market policies actually took root in Vietnam. The British Empire got democracy to take root in Hong Kong and India. But then Libya, Iran, and Iraq are a mess.

Hmmmm. It's almost as if Iran, Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc. have something in common that differentiates them from other countries and that is uniquely hostile to democracy and enlightenment values in general. Whatever could it be?

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

I suggested something similar weeks ago here and didn't get much love for it. This business of going in, patching things up and leaving is for losers. And just putting bases elsewhere in the Middle East in friendly territory like Qatar, is no substitute for occupying a hostile territory and ####### them 'til they love us.

We tried that in Iraq for the better part of a decade and left with absolutely nothing to show for it. Occupation worked in Japan because the Japanese acknowledged their defeat and wanted to get on with the business of rebuilding the country and living their lives. For a lot of Iraqis, by contrast, toppling Saddam was just an opening to start killing their neighbors.

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The guys don't the beheading probably had friends or family killed with one of our other actions out there. At some point unless you just stop the violence it will just be a never ending cycle.

Queue "We're all in the same gang" video.

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The guys don't the beheading probably had friends or family killed with one of our other actions out there. At some point unless you just stop the violence it will just be a never ending cycle.

Queue "We're all in the same gang" video.

I don't necessarily support large-scale military activities directed at ISIS, but how come people never make this same argument about law enforcement? Lots of people have been put in jail or even executed for various crimes, and you never hear about their family members attacking the government as a result. So I'm not sure why these nutjobs should get a pass when they go around beheading journalists and aid workers.

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Japan tried to take over the world, we didn't just win and then leave. We won and then put in massive military bases on their soil. Maybe that's what we should have done in the ME.

I suggested something similar weeks ago here and didn't get much love for it. This business of going in, patching things up and leaving is for losers. And just putting bases elsewhere in the Middle East in friendly territory like Qatar, is no substitute for occupying a hostile territory and ####### them 'til they love us.
Japan and Germany were rather unique situations. The Germans loved us because we weren't the Russians. Japan was docile because they are a docile people and their emperor told them not to resist. If the people of a country are hostile to your occupation, it's unsustainable (unless you're willing to commit all sorts of ugly war crimes that is, which we are not).

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Its a mystery to me why democracy takes root in some places but not others. We fought the Korean war, and democracy took root in South Korea. We lost the Vietnam War, and after it was over democracy and free market policies actually took root in Vietnam. The British Empire got democracy to take root in Hong Kong and India. But then Libya, Iran, and Iraq are a mess.

Hmmmm. It's almost as if Iran, Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc. have something in common that differentiates them from other countries and that is uniquely hostile to democracy and enlightenment values in general. Whatever could it be?

First of all, Vietnam is not a democracy by any definition. When you look at the list of countries ranked Not Free (bottom ranking) by the Freedom in the World 2014 index I don't see a pattern, that you do.

Afghanistan

Algeria Angola Azerbaijan Bahrain Belarus Brunei Burma Cambodia Cameroon Central African Republic Chad China Congo, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Republic of the Cuba Djibouti Egypt Equatorial Guinea Eritrea Ethiopia Gabon Gambia Gaza Strip Guinea-Bissau Iran Iraq Jordan Kashmir Kazakhstan Korea, North Laos Nagorno-Karabakh Oman Palestine Qatar Russia Rwanda Saudi Arabia Somalia South Ossetia South Sudan Sudan Swaziland Syria Tajikistan Thailand Tibet Transnistria Turkmenistan United Arab Emirates Uzbekistan Vietnam West Bank Western Sahara Yemen Zimbabwe

Edited by Fennis

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A good way, IMO, to think about it is this: ISIS is the Viet Cong. The government in Baghdad is Diem's government in Saigon.

That's an extremely simplistic and ideologically flawed comparison, IMO.

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