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Ran a 10k - Official Thread

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26 minutes ago, tri-man 47 said:

Remind me - do you wet the strap before taking off? ( I run the sensors over the back part of my tongue to give a coating before beginning.)

I forgot today, but I do normally wet the sensors.  Once I saw it was wonky I applied some spit and it settled down.

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2 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

What's the 10K goal?

My "PR" at this point (only estimated by Strava) is 47:58.  And if this was pre-Houston I would feel good about hitting that.  Because I was running fast back then during training.

Now that most/all of my runs are slow/easy I'm not sure I can do that.

But I'm going to give it a go.  So, I guess the goal is 47:57, but if I go out and can't handle the pace I'm not going to risk injury.  The overarching goal is my marathon in two months.

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Just signed-up for the Slay the Dragon 50K.  My first ultra!

Going to make a (long) weekend of it with the wife.  Stay on-mountain and lounge about.  Can't wait.

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3 hours ago, -OZ- said:

Is it too much to ask for Alabama to stay in the 60s year round? 

This morning's ride was glorious. Except I had to turn around just before mid point due to standing water, apparently a sewer backed up onto the road. I was not riding through that.

If you could have pulled that off it would surely have put you into the BMF Hall of Fame 😀

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32 minutes ago, Zasada said:

My "PR" at this point (only estimated by Strava) is 47:58.  And if this was pre-Houston I would feel good about hitting that.  Because I was running fast back then during training.

Now that most/all of my runs are slow/easy I'm not sure I can do that.

But I'm going to give it a go.  So, I guess the goal is 47:57, but if I go out and can't handle the pace I'm not going to risk injury.  The overarching goal is my marathon in two months.

You are going to be surprised by how fast you can run. Been there.  Running slowly for a while and then being shocked at how race day feels. And seeing the same with my wife.

You are faster than me and my Strava PR for a 10K is 47:52. I wouldn't be surprised if you can run it close to a 7:30 pace if not faster.

Edited by gianmarco
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Well the 10k I have been targeting for a year is this Saturday. I had hoped to be in slightly better condition but all in all I think about as good as I could have done.   Have been very lucky not to get sick nor have any major ailments to slow down training. My lower back started bothering me last week after my 8 mile run so I had to change my plan this week but you do what you can. Seeing all of your efforts listed both here and on strava help with motivation. A whole lot of mornings I did not want to get up at 4:00 and go for a run but made myself do it. I can’t even imagine running in the conditions so many of you do. Keep up the awesome work everyone 😀

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1 hour ago, Zasada said:

Just signed-up for the Slay the Dragon 50K.  My first ultra!

Going to make a (long) weekend of it with the wife.  Stay on-mountain and lounge about.  Can't wait.

👍👍

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Thank you @Juxtatarot for the simple but effective reminder to use the avg pace setting on your running watch. I rarely use it, but I did today. Had my best consistently paced run this whole cycle. Felt good the whole way through and I feel fresh even now after this run.

Probably could have extended a couple more miles but decided to listen to @pbm107 and be smart about it. Have followed this plan all the way through, so I need to trust it til the end.

Feeling good. Time for a cold beer.

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5 hours ago, Zasada said:

I forgot today, but I do normally wet the sensors.  Once I saw it was wonky I applied some spit and it settled down.

@bushdocda  ...:coffee:

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2 hours ago, tri-man 47 said:
7 hours ago, Zasada said:

I forgot today, but I do normally wet the sensors.  Once I saw it was wonky I applied some spit and it settled down.

 @bushdocda  ...:coffee:

I gave this a go today with most excellent results. I would like to sign up for your newsletter sir. 

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5 hours ago, ChiefD said:

Probably could have extended a couple more miles but decided to listen to @pbm107 and be smart about it. Have followed this plan all the way through, so I need to trust it til the end.

Feeling good. Time for a cold beer.

Good job and congrats on the weekly mileage PR. It was a good day to trust the process, I just got back from the Sixers Game with my boy.

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5 hours ago, ChiefD said:

Thank you @Juxtatarot for the simple but effective reminder to use the avg pace setting on your running watch. I rarely use it, but I did today. Had my best consistently paced run this whole cycle. Felt good the whole way through and I feel fresh even now after this run.

Probably could have extended a couple more miles but decided to listen to @pbm107 and be smart about it. Have followed this plan all the way through, so I need to trust it til the end.

Feeling good. Time for a cold beer.

Smart decision. 

 

I considered extending my 16 mile at 7:22-7:25 yesterday but thought better of it and I'm glad I did (although I did end up doing 23 miles on the day but the rest were all easy miles due to frigid cold and warm up and cool downs). 

 

I have my 2x3 mile strength run at 6:42-6:45 pace tomorrow AM and my legs are still feeling tired. Weather should be glorious with 34 degrees tomorrow so I'm excited about that.

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After spending several 3 hours working on my IT band on Sunday morning I was able to run 7 miles before it started nagging me. 

I really need to spend 15-20 minutes doing maintenance daily... if not, this whole year will suck.  

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Tomorrow I have a Strength run scheduled in my plan.  Slated for 3k WU, 6x1.5k @ MP-10 w/500m jog in-between, then 3k CD.

Sunday was supposed to be 3k WU + 12k Tempo + 3k CD, but I ended-up doing the 12k Tempo at roughly MP-10.  Not really intentionally, I was just running mostly by feel/HR and that's what it came out to be.

So, tomorrow, since I can do the 12k entirely at MP-10 (as I did Sunday), should I just do that and forget about the jogging breaks in-between?  Would really simplify things.  Or am I supposed to follow the letter of the law?  Or perhaps I should amp-up the intervals to MP-20 (for example) and keep the jogs?

Thanks for taking my call.  Will hang up and listen.

 

Edited by Zasada

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1 minute ago, Zasada said:

Tomorrow I have a Strength run scheduled in my plan.  Supposed to do 3k WU, 6x1.5k @ MP-10 w/500m jog in-between, then 3k CD.

Sunday was supposed to be 3k WU + 12k Tempo + 3k CD, but I ended-up doing the 12k Tempo at roughly MP-10.  Not really intentionally, I was just running mostly by feel/HR and that's what it came out to be.

So, tomorrow, since I can do the 12k entirely at MP-10 (as I did Sunday), should I just do that and forget about the jogging breaks in-between?  Would really simplify things.  Or am I supposed to follow the letter of the law?  Or should I amp-up the intervals to MP-20 (for example) and keep the jogs?

 

I think you need to re-evaluate your race goal and adjust from there.

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1 minute ago, ChiefD said:

I think you need to re-evaluate your race goal and adjust from there.

And that 10K may help with that, although I'd see what the experts think.

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10 minutes ago, Zasada said:

Tomorrow I have a Strength run scheduled in my plan.  Slated for 3k WU, 6x1.5k @ MP-10 w/500m jog in-between, then 3k CD.

Sunday was supposed to be 3k WU + 12k Tempo + 3k CD, but I ended-up doing the 12k Tempo at roughly MP-10.  Not really intentionally, I was just running mostly by feel/HR and that's what it came out to be.

So, tomorrow, since I can do the 12k entirely at MP-10 (as I did Sunday), should I just do that and forget about the jogging breaks in-between?  Would really simplify things.  Or am I supposed to follow the letter of the law?  Or perhaps I should amp-up the intervals to MP-20 (for example) and keep the jogs?

Thanks for taking my call.  Will hang up and listen.

 

Can you bounce this or perhaps when to revise goal pace by Luke or is it not an interactive thing?  The books talk a lot about the merits of the MP-10 on the body managing lactic acid and stuff (lots of stuff). Ideally you’d be following the premises of the strength run pace and interval and the MP tempo runs (and the long and easy ones too) to reap the intended synergies of the program. 

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5 minutes ago, ChiefD said:

I think you need to re-evaluate your race goal and adjust from there.

I would agree with that but I'm still concerned that I'm comfortable at ~20K distances but not-so-great at 30K+.  In Houston, I ran 32K at MP-30 "just fine" until I couldn't anymore and had to walk/run the last 10K.  So when I run 12K at MP-10, it's not a big deal for me.  But I have no idea if that would become a big deal at 42.2K.

My actual race goal for May is 3:56, but to run the whole thing.  I have already "faked" my race goal in my custom Hanson plan to be 3:44 to get a MP of 5:19/km (8:33/mi) just so that I can get training paces a little faster than what it was giving me at 3:56.

17 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

And that 10K may help with that

Yeah, another data point can't hurt.

 

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21 minutes ago, ChiefD said:

I think you need to re-evaluate your race goal and adjust from there.

I think @Zasada should scrap the SoS this week and sufficiently taper for the 10K.  Then cross every limb in hopes of favorable weather.  Then after successfully ####### some #### up Sunday re-assess paces for particular workouts going forward based on that race.

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12 minutes ago, bushdocda said:

Can you bounce this or perhaps when to revise goal pace by Luke or is it not an interactive thing?  

I didn't sign up for coaching so I'm not sure I'm going to get any Q&A capability.

12 minutes ago, bushdocda said:

The books talk a lot about the merits of the MP-10 on the body managing lactic acid and stuff (lots of stuff). Ideally you’d be following the premises of the strength run pace and interval and the MP tempo runs (and the long and easy ones too) to reap the intended synergies of the program. 

That's why I'm sticking with the plan as best I can.  Maybe these runs are *supposed* to be easy so that I train my body to burn fat and manage the "lots of stuff".

Finally, maybe MP-10 isn't supposed to feel all that hard 4 weeks in.  Reading @SteelCurtain's posts on Strava, I could be singing a different tune in Week 13.

Edited by Zasada

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3 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

I think @Zasada should scrap the SoS this week and sufficiently taper for the 10K.  Then cross every limb in hopes of favorable weather.  Then after successfully ####### some #### up Sunday re-assess paces for particular workouts going forward based on that race.

Hah, Luke did set up the plan so that it moved my SoS workout this week to Tuesday (from Wed) and then I have easy 10Ks on Wed/Thu/Sat.  Race Sunday.  Should be fine.

Also I seem to underperform following rest days, and excel following workout days.  I have set most of my PRs the day after significant workout.  I haven't mentioned it here but I think I tapered too much pre-Houston and that hurt me.  Pre-Vegas (HM) I didn't do as much tapering and had a great run come race day.

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I don't know if it is a good thing or a bad thing that I am just kind of making up my own plan as I move along... I mapped out a "basic plan" for this based off a few things I found on-line and some research/reading but overall it is more a "sketch" than a map and that even has been modified numerous times based on real-life. I'm ecstatic with the results so far but not sure if I'm missing out on opportunities... 

I've stuck to the "plan" for the long runs/weekends. But during the week it is a bit more "play it by ear" depending on work, family, life... 

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3 minutes ago, The Iguana said:

I don't know if it is a good thing or a bad thing that I am just kind of making up my own plan as I move along... I mapped out a "basic plan" for this based off a few things I found on-line and some research/reading but overall it is more a "sketch" than a map and that even has been modified numerous times based on real-life. I'm ecstatic with the results so far but not sure if I'm missing out on opportunities... 

I've stuck to the "plan" for the long runs/weekends. But during the week it is a bit more "play it by ear" depending on work, family, life... 

Here, allow me:

@MAC_32: ":wub:"

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25 minutes ago, Zasada said:

I didn't sign up for coaching so I'm not sure I'm going to get any Q&A capability.

That's why I'm sticking with the plan as best I can.  Maybe these runs are *supposed* to be easy so that I train my body to burn fat and manage the "lots of stuff".

Finally, maybe MP-10 isn't supposed to feel all that hard 4 weeks in.  Reading @SteelCurtain's posts on Strava, I could be singing a different tune in Week 13.

I'm starting to think you are pacing too slowly and should bump your training times across the board.  It shouldn't be THAT easy.  Plus, early in the plan, aren't you supposed to be doing speed?  Speed is generally one minute per mile faster than race pace.  The strength part is the second half of the plan, no?  Can you share the plan you are following?  @pbm107 is also another good Hanson's perspective to listen to.


As for me, yeah, my legs are now completely feeling the plan.  I was doing so well 10 days ago, and now the wheels have fallen off.  Hoping I can get sleep and back on track soon.  My MP run is supposed to be Wednesday but may bump it to Thursday.  I'll have to see.

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I'll take some input on the 12 week base I'm starting today.

I did this plan last year and I think it worked really well for me.  It's a run every single day and most of the runs are relatively short.  I think I got great results from it and I enjoyed the workouts in this plan.  It is labeled an advanced Higdon plan, so, I hesitate to add anything to it.  It also specifically mentions for the "long runs" on Sundays not to run too far or too fast as it will compromise the speed work during the week and that's the reason it's not a high mileage plan.  Those long runs range from 6-10 miles as the weeks go.

The easy days on M/W/F are all short easy 3 mile runs except for 3 of the early Wednesdays (it builds from 3 to 4 to 5 to 6 and then it's 3 the rest of the way).  The speed workouts are all 30-45 minutes in length (fartleks/tempos) and the interval work (hills and repeats) can range from 4-8 depending on how many wu/cd miles I do. 

Doing that, the weekly mileage will vary from ~27-35 for the entire plan if I do more wu/cd miles.  But, that also makes the interval workouts longer and that can be a challenge midweek.  Keeping the wu/cd to ~2 miles total is ideal.

Would it be unwise to bump those easy runs to 4 or 5 miles (keeping it slow, of course) if I'm feeling good for that day to get the mileage a little higher or am I similarly sabotaging what the plan is trying to do?  Overall, it's easier for me to do a 1 hour workout daily over two days rather than half hour one day and then 1 1/2 hours the next.

Edited by gianmarco

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26 minutes ago, SteelCurtain said:

I'm starting to think you are pacing too slowly and should bump your training times across the board.  It shouldn't be THAT easy.  Plus, early in the plan, aren't you supposed to be doing speed?  Speed is generally one minute per mile faster than race pace.  The strength part is the second half of the plan, no?  Can you share the plan you are following? 

Just emailed you the plan.  It's structured in the following way:

  • 15 week plan
  • 5 runs a week
  • Tue/Thu/Sat easy 10Ks (increases to 12Ks in Week 11)
  • Wednesdays are interval work
    • Weeks 1-4 were Fartlek (@10K pace, MP-40)
    • Weeks 5-7, 9-11 are Strength (MP-10)
    • Weeks 8 & 12 are Speed (@10K pace, MP-40)
  • Sundays are Long Runs
    • Alternate between Long Run pace and MP
    • Top-out at 25K in Week 13
  • Two embedded races (probably count as speed work)
    • 10K at the end of Week 5
    • 15K (trail) at the end of Week 12

 

 

 

Edited by Zasada

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...and these are the paces I'm training at

Workout TypePace/miPace/km

  • Easy   10:03 - 11:03   6:15 - 6:52  (This is way too slow for me, I'm actually running my "easy" runs a little faster than the fast end of moderate)
  • Moderate      9:33 - 10:33   5:56 - 6:34
  • Long Runs   9:03 - 10:33   5:38 - 6:34
  • Speed Workouts   7:31 - 7:50   4:40 - 4:52  (Roughly my target 10K pace, and this is definitely work)
  • Vo2max Workouts   6:55 - 7:31   4:18 - 4:40
  • Lactate Threshold   7:50 - 8:10   4:52 - 5:05
  • Strength Workouts   8:23   5:13  (Hard for me to tell the difference bewteen this and MP)
  • Half Mar Tempos   8:12   5:06
  • Marathon Tempos   8:33   5:19  (I hope to run my marathon at a 9:07/5:40 for the first 35K and then speed up if I can for the last 7K)

Also for reference, I ran Houston at a 8:19/5:10 pace and crashed after 32K.  As such about 1/3 of the last 10K was walking.

Edited by Zasada

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8 minutes ago, Zasada said:

...and these are the paces I'm training at

Workout TypePace/miPace/km

  • Easy   10:03 - 11:03   6:15 - 6:52  (This is way too slow for me, I'm actually running my "easy" runs a little faster than the fast end of moderate)
  • Moderate      9:33 - 10:33   5:56 - 6:34
  • Long Runs   9:03 - 10:33   5:38 - 6:34
  • Speed Workouts   7:31 - 7:50   4:40 - 4:52  (Roughly my target 10K pace, and this is definitely work)
  • Vo2max Workouts   6:55 - 7:31   4:18 - 4:40
  • Lactate Threshold   7:50 - 8:10   4:52 - 5:05
  • Strength Workouts   8:23   5:13  (Hard for me to tell the difference bewteen this and MP)
  • Half Mar Tempos   8:12   5:06
  • Marathon Tempos   8:33   5:19  (I hope to run my marathon at a 9:07/5:40 for the first 35K and then speed up if I can for the last 7K)

Also for reference, I ran Houston at a 8:19/5:10 pace and crashed after 32K.  As such about 1/3 of the last 10K was walking.

Those paces are almost identical to mine when I was at peak fitness for my HM (even though I screwed it up).

My guess is you're slightly faster at this point but this week's race well help set that mark.

It seems you just went out too fast for Houston (even with your current fitness). Overall, you may want to run your speed work faster and slow runs slower. There is a reason for those slow paces and it really matters. I felt the same as you last year and everyone here plus everything I read said to keep it slow even if it seems too slow. And it worked. I'm quite sure you're going to see it for yourself this weekend when you smoke the 10K. 

The slow runs are meant to develop the aerobic system which is what you primarily use for your endurance race. If you run them too fast, you end up in a gray zone that isn't slow enough to accomplish that and not fast enough to develop any speed. Trust the ranges. I also think you can likely run your first 35K faster than 9:07. Just not 8:19 :)

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1 hour ago, gianmarco said:

There is a reason for those slow paces and it really matters.

That's what I'm trusting right now.  When on easy runs I try to keep my HR 135-140, which is right in my aerobic zone.  

 

52 minutes ago, ChiefD said:

@Zasada - do you know what your max heart rate is? Can't remember if you have posted it before or not.

I've never actually tested it formally, but anecdotally it's around 170-175.  That's "stop now and/or barf" territory for me.

I might find out this weekend on my 10K as well.  :)

 

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1 hour ago, gianmarco said:

Would it be unwise to bump those easy runs to 4 or 5 miles (keeping it slow, of course) if I'm feeling good for that day to get the mileage a little higher or am I similarly sabotaging what the plan is trying to do?  Overall, it's easier for me to do a 1 hour workout daily over two days rather than half hour one day and then 1 1/2 hours the next.

I've read on a number of occasions that there are some specific adaptations that start to occur after 80 minutes of running, although I've never been able to find the science to support it (and I've tried).  So to the extent that some of those "longer" runs get you up over 80 minutes, that might be a good reason to stick with the short/long setup instead of going medium/medium even though it's harder to schedule.

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1 minute ago, gruecd said:

I've read on a number of occasions that there are some specific adaptations that start to occur after 80 minutes of running, although I've never been able to find the science to support it (and I've tried).  So to the extent that some of those "longer" runs get you up over 80 minutes, that might be a good reason to stick with the short/long setup instead of going medium/medium even though it's harder to schedule.

Yes, I know @tri-man 47 has mentioned that a lot before.  But those longer runs won't get me to 80 minutes.  We're talking about running 2 miles of warm up, then doing 16x200 and then 2 miles of cool down.  I don't see how I'm going to hit 80 minutes with that workout even being slower.  

Funny you mention that because I thought of it yesterday when I was done and saw I hit 83 minutes and was thankful for the 3 minutes of specific adaptation I accomplished.  If I would have had more time, I could have knocked out a couple more miles. 

But yeah, something I'll keep in mind and try for.  It's only on those Tuesdays so when I can manage the longer WU/CD, I'll go for it.

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12 hours into my taper, and I already hate it.  That is all.

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2 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

Yes, I know @tri-man 47 has mentioned that a lot before.  But those longer runs won't get me to 80 minutes.  We're talking about running 2 miles of warm up, then doing 16x200 and then 2 miles of cool down.  I don't see how I'm going to hit 80 minutes with that workout even being slower.  

Funny you mention that because I thought of it yesterday when I was done and saw I hit 83 minutes and was thankful for the 3 minutes of specific adaptation I accomplished.  If I would have had more time, I could have knocked out a couple more miles. 

But yeah, something I'll keep in mind and try for.  It's only on those Tuesdays so when I can manage the longer WU/CD, I'll go for it.

PS:  @tri-man 47 have you ever seen the actual studies supporting the "80-minute" thing?  I'd love to read them...

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10 minutes ago, gruecd said:

I've read on a number of occasions that there are some specific adaptations that start to occur after 80 minutes of running, although I've never been able to find the science to support it (and I've tried).  So to the extent that some of those "longer" runs get you up over 80 minutes, that might be a good reason to stick with the short/long setup instead of going medium/medium even though it's harder to schedule.

I'm sure it's at least partially a placebo effect based on reading it and wanting it to be true, but 80ish minute runs feel substantially more productive than 70.  I've been passively doing it for some time, but going forward I'm going to more assertively avoid the 55-70 minute window.  

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17 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

I'm sure it's at least partially a placebo effect based on reading it and wanting it to be true, but 80ish minute runs feel substantially more productive than 70.  I've been passively doing it for some time, but going forward I'm going to more assertively avoid the 55-70 minute window.  

If true, it sucks, because 7-10 miles is literally my favorite distance when I'm just "going for a run"...

Edited by gruecd

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1 minute ago, gruecd said:

If true, it sucks, because 7-10 miles is literally my favorite distance when I'm just "going for a run"...

Run slower.

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Man, I wish I was trained for Carmel.  Would love to run with you guys.  Less than two three weeks away!

Edited by Zasada
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6 minutes ago, gruecd said:

If true, it sucks, because 7-10 miles is literally my favorite distance when I'm just "going for a run"...

I think it has its place in the offseason.  I think those runs can be mentally refreshing but not physically taxing.  But I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn sometime in the future it's purgatory in a training cycle.  At least unless you're changing speeds anyway.  Because you're running those extra miles, increasing fatigue for future workouts, but not really getting any benefit.

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Yeah, I think the supposed benefit after 80-90 minutes is that you've burned through glycogen stores and force the body to burn fat and learn to do so more efficiently. No chance you get there after just 1 hour. 

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14 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

Yeah, I think the supposed benefit after 80-90 minutes is that you've burned through glycogen stores and force the body to burn fat and learn to do so more efficiently. No chance you get there after just 1 hour. 

I’m not sure I understand.  The rate one goes through glycogen stores has a lot of variables other than time.  Glycogen can last several hours for many runners.

 

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46 minutes ago, Zasada said:

Man, I wish I was trained for Carmel.  Would love to run with you guys.  Less than two three weeks away!

Come and run the half with @The Iguana

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46 minutes ago, Zasada said:

Man, I wish I was trained for Carmel.  Would love to run with you guys.  Less than two three weeks away!

Come on in, the water is fine! 

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1 hour ago, gruecd said:

PS:  @tri-man 47 have you ever seen the actual studies supporting the "80-minute" thing?  I'd love to read them...

I recall reading an article on this, but I didn't save it.  When I can, I'll hunt around as well.

I certainly don't mind runs that are less than that 80-minute mark.  The logic on those is that doing 5-8 easy miles is more beneficial than 3-4.  But I definitely have the sense that the longer runs (9-12 miles) affect me differently.  Gotta identify the science behind that ...

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Went out on a beautiful, sunny, brisk day to run at lunch. Ran a 5k, then had a little walk/cool down and then jogged 2 miles back to the office. Ran the 5k all alone (and with some dark thoughts...) and finished with an estimated time of 22:49 per strava/garmin. Virtually certain that is the fastest 5k I have run since I was 18 years old... That hurt a little, but was fun to do. 

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On 3/10/2019 at 10:15 AM, Zasada said:

Just signed-up for the Slay the Dragon 50K.  My first ultra!

Going to make a (long) weekend of it with the wife.  Stay on-mountain and lounge about.  Can't wait.

Hell yeah!  Looks like a fun one. 

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11 hours ago, tri-man 47 said:

I recall reading an article on this, but I didn't save it.  When I can, I'll hunt around as well.

I certainly don't mind runs that are less than that 80-minute mark.  The logic on those is that doing 5-8 easy miles is more beneficial than 3-4.  But I definitely have the sense that the longer runs (9-12 miles) affect me differently.  Gotta identify the science behind that ...

Spent an hour or two in an interwebs wormhole on this today, but couldn’t find anything specific. A few references to adaptations that occur over 90 minutes, but nothing specific. 

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On 3/10/2019 at 1:20 PM, OrganizedChaos said:

If you could have pulled that off it would surely have put you into the BMF Hall of Fame 😀

Bowel Movement Follower?

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