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Ran a 10k - Official Thread (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ned
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tri-man 47
Footballguy
Paging @JAA and @ThreeThousand! They're the ones who have done the fulls. @-OZ- does tri's, but I don't think a full IM (same with me - a few halfs, but not a full).
The Iguana
Footballguy
I think it's way too soon for htat to be the case - maybe later, but I fully believe he'd be better served to keep running the same pace and let the HR come down - will happen very quickly, IMO.
The Iguana
Footballguy
And I'm obviously in the minority here - if you have been running a lot, it's probably sound advice to slow down - probably even makes sense to do so a little anyway, but if you are just starting, I'd just worry about getting in some more miles first and then evaluate where you are in a week or 2.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Tokyo Marathon is being restricted to elite runners due to coronavirus fears. Understandable but must absolutely suck for those who have trained and planned to travel to Japan.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Agreed, 170 is too high but it isn't the same with a n00b vs a vet. When my wife first started monitoring HR when she trained for her first full in 2018 she was constantly in the 160's and 170's. It took weeks of it, fatigue building, before she finally hit a wall. That was when she finally figured out how to actually easy run. Before she occasionally dropped to the 140's, but not with any sort of consistency. After that light bulb moment (most of) her easy runs were in the 140's - and some lower. She'd still run hot on something of substance (SoS) workouts and those easy runs were still too high, but her efficiency gains were quite real.
So, definitely slow down - but as long as your muscles and joints are happy I wouldn't read too much into the HR data until you have a consistent few week sample - or you hit the figurative wall in training.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
A trick I sometimes use when considering if I’m running too fast for an easy run is a breath hold. If it’s really hard to hold my breath for 10 seconds, I’m running too fast.
Zasada
Footballguy
Going to be following you closely. With the idea that I need to match/exceed your regimen. I think your race is a week before mine.
Quick question: How much water (in my case, Tailwind) do you carry on your races? I have a 1.5L reservoir for my Salomon vest, and two 500mL soft flasks. Saturday I ran with just one of the soft flasks, but it was cold and I didn't do much sweating. I figure Miwok will be warm, but there are well-spaced aid stations for Tailwind refills (every 5-8mi). I'm reluctant to carry too much weight, but I want to train like I'm going to race. Two 500mL flasks enough to bridge the gap between stations?
-OZ-
Footballguy
Hey!
I did a full... one... 6 years ago. 
I was just mentioning to the wife that I feel like I should do another full in the next few years. Just not this year. Maybe Chatty or Florida, unless there's a smaller venue within driving distance. She hasn't filed for divorce yet.
-OZ-
Footballguy
ok. I thought he had been running for a while. If it's a brand new stress, I can see your point.
but be sure to listen to your body, after workouts.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
I have been running for a while. It’s been sporadic though (maybe on average twice a week). I will typically run on treadmill for 10 minutes at a speed of 6.2 for the first 10 minutes and then gradually bump the treadmill speed up 0.1 each minute thereafter for the last 10 minutes. After 5 minute cool down, I typically hit ~ 2.6ish miles in 25 minutes. But maybe I haven’t been running consistently enough for my HR to improve. Or maybe I have a bigger problem that needs to be addressed.
ETA - I never feel tired after any run despite my HR obviously being too high. And I am running at a speed where I certainly don’t feel like I could have a conversation with someone.
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MAC_32
Footballguy
At the risk of reading too much into one anecdotal example - that's about exactly where my wife was when she first consistently training and started paying attention to her HR. Safe > sorry, so I'm not trying to talk you out of getting checked out. For lots of reasons you probably should, I wouldn't go in expecting bad news is all.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Congrats! Looks like a great venue.
As mentioned above, it's been 6 years for me but a few things stand out in memory. My goal was to finish, if yours is to place or qualify for Kona, you'll need to approach it differently. A few of these are blatantly obvious but perhaps worth repeating.
- I did a lot of mileage but not a whole lot of intensity.
- I trained to walk on my long runs occasionally, as I had every intention of walking portions in the race.
- In the months leading up to the full, I swam a 2 mile OWS race, a marathon (like 4 months out), and a few shorter tris. The OWS is key.
- The biggest workout I did was a "metric 140.6" - 2.4k swim, 112k ride, 26.2 run. It sucked, but got me mentally prepared. This was in August in North Carolina, so heat was a #####.
I only wanted to finish and enjoy the day. I'm still happy with my experience including the time (11:05:40, beating my expectations)
Good luck! we'll be following along
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Thanks. I will say that I do get bloodwork done every 6 months and seem to be pretty healthy other than borderline high cholesterol (which is most certainly due to other behaviors such as not eating as healthy as I could and drinking more than I should). However the HR thing does worry me. Although my resting HR is in the 60s. Hopefully I see improvement now that I’m officially training for something and my workouts will be less sporadic.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Thank you for posting this - it plays a role, but I used to think winter fatigue was the primary culprit with decreased performance. The restrained clothing, increased difficulty breathing, there being no such thing as an easy run, etc. And while 'winter fatigue' is still correct I never considered vitamin D deficiencies - and it makes complete sense. There's a reason why my best winter workouts are typically under sunlight - or a day or so after. And there's a reason I seem to be dragging ### the rest of the time. I was just wrong about the source of that reason.
Living in zone 1 and being beyond early February it's a non issue going forward, but I need to remember this come November next season.
-OZ-
Footballguy
perhaps. Also, some people have a naturally high heart rate. If Juxt was going easy with 170+, I'd be worried. But that's not everyone.
My guess - and it's just that, is that you've done most of your runs in a "no man's land". Not hard enough to call it true intensity, but not truly easy. I was pretty much in the same place before I started following MAF and a more zone-based approach. I ran a lot, and 160-170s felt easy, until I changed the approach. Improved a lot by taking it easier.
It's up to you (obviously), but if you were to get more consistent first, then consider a MAF or Zone 2 based approach, that would certainly be a good COA.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Memory is the first to go ...Hey!
I was just mentioning to the wife that I feel like I should do another full in the next few years. Just not this year. Maybe Chatty or Florida, unless there's a smaller venue within driving distance. She hasn't filed for divorce yet.
How you can squeeze in the training (then, or again) with everything else you have going is amazing. But then again, I always feel that way for those with kids to care for on top of jobs (not sure how I did it myself through the years).
-OZ-
Footballguy
yeah, that's why I haven't done another. and frankly another might be just a pipe dream for the next few years. But I do want to... maybe I'll just quit the job.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Here's my $.02 from a relative n00b compared to most of these guys.
1) It's always a good idea to get checked out before beginning somewhat strenuous cardiac activity and make sure there aren't any issues going forward. That's irrespective of your post about your pace and HR. I don't think your HR of 170 with what you're doing is concerning, personally, as I think it's just a function of being somewhat inexperienced at running and running at a faster pace (even if it seems slow to you). So get checked out, especially if it'll make you feel better, but you should be fine.
2) 99.99999% of people that start out running start out faster than they should. So it's clearly not a problem that's going to keep you from improving since pretty much everyone has made that "mistake". As others have mentioned, you're going to improve either way just by getting out there. However, one of the basic philosophies is to run slow in order to run fast. Most of your runs (80%) should be slow enough that you can hold a conversation while running and not be out of breath. My guess is at that 9:00 pace and a HR of 170, you're not likely able to get out full sentences. If you keep doing what you're doing, your HR will eventually drop and you will eventually get faster but that's a product of just doing it more. I do think, at the same time, that if you slow down to a pace where you can be conversational that a) You're going to enjoy it a little more because it's not always fun to run hard and b) probably improve faster than if you don't. Especially with your race being a 10 mile race and not a 5K, endurance is going to be a bigger deal for you than top end speed (yes, yes, I know a 5K is also an endurance event, but still....)
3) I looked back at my runs when I first started and I did the same thing you did. I didn't have a HR monitor at the time but there's no doubt I was in the 170's because I still remember what it felt like. And I remember thinking it wasn't that bad either compared to when it was bad. But, I tried to listen to everyone early on telling me to slow down and just run more and it made a huge difference. In 2 months, I made huge improvements coming from someone that had never run before. The idea is to try and optimize your potential to improve over the next 10 weeks prior to this race. But, ultimately, you need to have fun with it. And if you enjoy running faster and don't enjoy slowing down, then keep doing what you're doing. It's not "wrong" as you're starting out. I think the biggest thing all of us would love for you to take away from this is to enjoy it and stick with it beyond this 10 mile race.
4) Which brings me to the final point that, much like you, I had borderline cholesterol numbers. Those numbers plummeted after just a few months of running and I went from having to consider taking medications to being in the normal range. A huge benefit of what we do with running. So stick with it and you'll likely not have to worry about that part. In fact, if you get checked out, see if you can get it repeated afterward and see how much it changes.
Good luck and have fun.
bostonfred
Footballguy
@fred_1_15301 I really think I've figured out why this slow running/ low heart rate thing is so important.
I used to think of running and jazzercise and all that crap generically as "aerobics" but it turns out that running fast isn't aerobics. It's anaerobic.
When you run fast your heart beats fast to give you the power you need. It gets rocket fuel and distributes it quickly for fast use and when you improve you become more powerful. Like when you're lifting weights, you need enough fuel to do that last rep and your muscles tear and build back stronger.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_exercise
That's not what you want though. You're building power but you aren't really building up that endurance. So the good news is your legs and core are getting stronger but the bad news is you're not improving your aerobic fitness very much.
Aerobic fitness is the ability to run without bonking. When you reach your aerobic threshold you know it. It's that feeling where you're fighting through the wall and you have to use your mental endurance to keep going because your body says it's time to stop. You're not just sweating, you're overheating.
Right now, you're probably not hitting that wall doing 2 or 2.5 miles. Your aerobic and anaerobic fitness are both good enough that you can run that distance fast and not bonk. And you've been increasing your anaerobic fitness when you increase your treadmill speed a little at a time so you can run a little faster next time.
But when you're training to run a lot further like 10 miles, you're probably going to hit that aerobic threshold - at some point you'll feel like you can't run much longer at this speed and either power through it as long as you can, or slow down/walk. If you power through it, your heart rate will beat faster and faster or you will have to get slower. And when it beats faster, you're in that anaerobic zone - like when you're lifting weights and using your strength on each step.
That's not going to stop happening just because you're training. But it's going to happen later if you improve your aerobic threshold.
If you're trying to run ten miles without stopping you need to increase your aerobic threshold until you can run ten miles without stopping. But if you want to run a ten mile race, then ideally what you want isn't just to be able to run 10 miles without having to stop, it's to be able to run those ten miles without having to slow down.
That's what running slower does for you. It increases the amount of time or distance before your heart goes ok, i need to switch from endurance mode to power mode.
That doesn't mean you don't also want to increase your power. Running fast will make you better at running fast. Doing intervals will help increase your anaerobic threshold. Doing leg and core exercises will help too. But for most of us, even very good athletes, increasing and maintaining your aerobic threshold will have more positive effects than just running as fast as you can on every training run.
I have personally seen more improvement in the last few weeks from running slower than i did for months of running faster. These guys are telling you the same thing. But I feel like now that I understand why and can relate it to what I'm feeling when i run, I don't have that skepticism anymore.
I used to think of running and jazzercise and all that crap generically as "aerobics" but it turns out that running fast isn't aerobics. It's anaerobic.
When you run fast your heart beats fast to give you the power you need. It gets rocket fuel and distributes it quickly for fast use and when you improve you become more powerful. Like when you're lifting weights, you need enough fuel to do that last rep and your muscles tear and build back stronger.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_exercise
That's not what you want though. You're building power but you aren't really building up that endurance. So the good news is your legs and core are getting stronger but the bad news is you're not improving your aerobic fitness very much.
Aerobic fitness is the ability to run without bonking. When you reach your aerobic threshold you know it. It's that feeling where you're fighting through the wall and you have to use your mental endurance to keep going because your body says it's time to stop. You're not just sweating, you're overheating.
Right now, you're probably not hitting that wall doing 2 or 2.5 miles. Your aerobic and anaerobic fitness are both good enough that you can run that distance fast and not bonk. And you've been increasing your anaerobic fitness when you increase your treadmill speed a little at a time so you can run a little faster next time.
But when you're training to run a lot further like 10 miles, you're probably going to hit that aerobic threshold - at some point you'll feel like you can't run much longer at this speed and either power through it as long as you can, or slow down/walk. If you power through it, your heart rate will beat faster and faster or you will have to get slower. And when it beats faster, you're in that anaerobic zone - like when you're lifting weights and using your strength on each step.
That's not going to stop happening just because you're training. But it's going to happen later if you improve your aerobic threshold.
If you're trying to run ten miles without stopping you need to increase your aerobic threshold until you can run ten miles without stopping. But if you want to run a ten mile race, then ideally what you want isn't just to be able to run 10 miles without having to stop, it's to be able to run those ten miles without having to slow down.
That's what running slower does for you. It increases the amount of time or distance before your heart goes ok, i need to switch from endurance mode to power mode.
That doesn't mean you don't also want to increase your power. Running fast will make you better at running fast. Doing intervals will help increase your anaerobic threshold. Doing leg and core exercises will help too. But for most of us, even very good athletes, increasing and maintaining your aerobic threshold will have more positive effects than just running as fast as you can on every training run.
I have personally seen more improvement in the last few weeks from running slower than i did for months of running faster. These guys are telling you the same thing. But I feel like now that I understand why and can relate it to what I'm feeling when i run, I don't have that skepticism anymore.
MAC_32
Footballguy
I've stock piled vacation days specifically for the next 10 weeks. If I don't use them and have excess to use before they refill July 1, awesome. But if they're necessary and float away in a wave of half day's then c'est la'vie. Busiest period on everyone's schedule starts over the next couple weeks just when training ramps up - gonna be a wild couple of months.
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
First of all, definitely exceed! My training for this has been far from ideal, especially in terms of consistency which I think is close to #1 on the list of things that are most important in training. A quick peak at your Strava shows you are doing much better with that than I am, so that's good. I'd keep that up and get in vert (especially on long runs) whenever you can, with a focus on running strong on the downhills. My main suggestion to you would be to run a hilly 50K 5-7 weeks out from the race, which is an opportunity to not only get in that distance but practice your nutrition, hydration, and gear. If you can't do that, then I'd suggest a back-to-back long weekend (or two), something like 4 hours on Saturday and then 2 1/2 hours on tired legs on Sunday. Ideally that Sunday run would be a little more "runnable" so you can push yourself to actually run or even shuffle on tired legs. There is a lot of runnable terrain in the back half of the race (before the final 3 miles), so if you can keep moving well through there it'll be huge.
As for hydration, you're right in thinking to carry as little as you need. It's also so much easier to fill bottles at an aid station than a bladder, so I only use a bladder if it's really going to be hot and I know I won't be able to make it between aid stations without it. With a lot of the aid stations around 7 miles apart that can be pushing it for just 2 bottles, but it usually isn't too warm here in that area that time of year so I think you'll be ok. If it is warmer than expected be sure you've finished your bottles coming in to the AS, and ahead of the longer sections (especially leaving Randall) drink while you're in the AS as well.
gruecd
Footballguy
Was it cold? I use Salted Caramel GU exclusively, and I find that it helps if I hold it in my hand (sometimes even slip it inside my glove) for a mile or so before I plan to take it. Helps soften it up, much easier to take that way.
gianmarco
Footballguy
xulf
Footballguy
Vitamin D deficiency is no joke. A few years ago I was in a really depressive state and they checked my D levels and they were at the bottom of the deficient zone. I had to go on 50,000 IUs for awhile to pump it back up, which really improved my well-being.
I now take 1,000 IUs with my multi-vitamin and up it to 2,000 IUs in the winter. Yay, Ohio winters
ChiefD
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
gruecd
Footballguy
There will be downstream repercussions of this, too. They're letting people defer to next year, which most of the people who had eyes on doing it next year will likely have a harder time getting in. Which will likely have a spillover effect on 2022 and maybe even 2023 before it finally settles out. I was planning on running in 2022, so we'll see...
xulf
Footballguy
It was in the mid-30s. It wasn't really that bad to get down, I was just expecting to be a little thinner. Had to semi-chew it a couple of time to make it swallow-able.
I like the warming it up idea, I'll try that next time.
xulf
Footballguy
MAC_32
Footballguy
I'm not complaining about this one because it has come with a bottom 5 (EVER!) snow total and Friday was the first day all winter with a day time high under 25. However, part of the ingredients that have led to those conditions were A LOT of clouds. I was aware of SAD, but I just never made the connection between it and performance.Yay, Ohio winters
I was looking at a particular December run side eyed a couple weeks ago - 13 days after November's half, went out for a brisk 13 miles - 27 degrees, partly cloudy, no wind - and put down a 6:58 pace. It wasn't easy, but it certainly wasn't hard. Now I've put down a lot of miles since then and that played a role, but even my best workouts when the sun was out weren't coming close to that mark. 'Trust the process' is what I kept telling myself and that the times would melt away come March, but there had been underlying seeds of doubt I haven't talked about being planted.
That was a very timely post by tri-man, that perspective was what I needed to stop worrying about my actual paces right now and just get the actual work in. Speed season is coming soon...
The Iguana
Footballguy
really stressing a little these days... my appointment with the PT was pushed until Wednesday. Have ridden the bike some, took my dog on a long hike yesterday. Leg is starting to feel better and kind of want to go test it but really have little room for error here. Have a 5k in 2 weeks I was mega excited about - pretty much have written it off to be an easy run at this point because 2 weeks after that is the trail run that I must be ready to participate in - don't feel compelled to race it but will be at least hiking it, which would totally suck, IMO.
Had a good chat with a friend of mine that stressed that caution is the best answer for hamstring problems but, man, it really sucks after such a strong start to the year.
Had a good chat with a friend of mine that stressed that caution is the best answer for hamstring problems but, man, it really sucks after such a strong start to the year.
MAC_32
Footballguy
If it ends up just being a week or two off then it'll just take a week or two to get it back. Keep thinking long game. You'll be fine as long as you exercise restraint and patience.
The Iguana
Footballguy
Zasada
Footballguy
Yeah, I've run a grand total of one 50K (a little short of that, actually) in my brief career, and now I'm going to do one in training?
I'll target mid-Mar (six weeks before Miwok) for this. Will bring some oreos, as that is my best-guess for food which might appeal to me on race day. If I can't do 50K in one day, then I'll plan a longer, hilly run the day after. This weekend was a "lite" version of that -- did 4hrs on Sat and 1.5hrs on Sun, both on hilly trails. As you know, there is no option for me for midweek vert now (DFW) so I'll have to be vigilant about weekends back in Calgary.
The fear is starting to take hold, though. I'm hoping part of my slowness on Saturday was the snowy trail, and I can count on less resistance/inefficiency in May. Not helping at all is that my dad and his wife are considering coming to the race (making a bay-area long-weekend out of it), alongside my wife. The good news part is that it's more support, the bad news is that it just amps the pressure to not fail and finish the race. I don't deal well with pressure!
Thanks for the tips. One request -- do you know of any good beginner RRs for Miwok? I've googled it but not come across anything detailed. You might have a link or two from your prior preparations?
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gruecd
Footballguy
Have any of y'all gearheads seen this thing yet? Free Train
(Scroll down and click on "Play Video." Pretty cool.)
(Scroll down and click on "Play Video." Pretty cool.)
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MAC_32
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
ChiefD
Footballguy
-OZ-
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
bushdocda
Footballguy
Saw that somewhere, maybe Shark Tank. I would try, my flip belt is too loose. Would worry it would smell as bad as my HR strap though. I’ve been trying various shorts with a proper center phone pocket and good waistband/drawstring get as light as I can with tunes until I upgrade to music on watch.
gruecd
Footballguy
Music on watch with bluetooth headphones is really the way to go. I'll still always wear my Garmin since the GPS accuracy is so superior, but I really like having my cellular-equipped Apple Watch on my other wrist. I've got my music, I can send and receive calls/texts if necessary, and I've got Apple Pay if I want to stop at a gas station to buy something to drink.
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-OZ-
Footballguy
ChiefD
Footballguy
Harris
Footballguy
Thanks for this! Good point on the OWS as the swim is my biggest weakness overall. I'll try to perhaps take the train down to Nice a few weeks before the race and get some practice in the Mediterranean so I'm not shocked by the roughness or the temp, etc.Congrats! Looks like a great venue.
As mentioned above, it's been 6 years for me but a few things stand out in memory. My goal was to finish, if yours is to place or qualify for Kona, you'll need to approach it differently. A few of these are blatantly obvious but perhaps worth repeating.
- I did a lot of mileage but not a whole lot of intensity.
- I trained to walk on my long runs occasionally, as I had every intention of walking portions in the race.
- In the months leading up to the full, I swam a 2 mile OWS race, a marathon (like 4 months out), and a few shorter tris. The OWS is key.
- The biggest workout I did was a "metric 140.6" - 2.4k swim, 112k ride, 26.2 run. It sucked, but got me mentally prepared. This was in August in North Carolina, so heat was a #####.
I only wanted to finish and enjoy the day. I'm still happy with my experience including the time (11:05:40, beating my expectations)
Good luck! we'll be following along
Also like the idea of a metric tri one day to test all three levels together at a distance between the full and half iron.
Right now I've got a few prep races lined up (Sevilla Marathon next weekend, Gdynia Half Marathon, Paris Marathon, local sprint tri and Aix-en-Provence 70.3).
My longest tri to date was Steelhead 70.3 about 6 years ago (2014) and I really struggled with nutrition as well. Hopefully I'll be able to get a feel for that before the full iron.
Thanks for the tips!
Harris
Footballguy
Does anyone here do Parkrun (https://www.parkrun.com/)?
When I moved to Paris with my wife we met some people who turned us onto Parkrun and we've made some good friends through there. It's essentially a free timed 5km run every week. Really good for just getting started into running as it is super low pressure and all are welcome, including walkers. Also a great way to just let it rip in a race-like setting once in a while without paying $40 just for a 5k.
From the looks of it (https://www.parkrun.us/events/#geo=2.24/39.06/-101.47) there aren't a ton of locations in the U.S. but well worth checking it out if you're near one.
When I moved to Paris with my wife we met some people who turned us onto Parkrun and we've made some good friends through there. It's essentially a free timed 5km run every week. Really good for just getting started into running as it is super low pressure and all are welcome, including walkers. Also a great way to just let it rip in a race-like setting once in a while without paying $40 just for a 5k.
From the looks of it (https://www.parkrun.us/events/#geo=2.24/39.06/-101.47) there aren't a ton of locations in the U.S. but well worth checking it out if you're near one.
The Iguana
Footballguy
I have never actually done one but when I googled for races/runs near my cabin, I found that there are a couple of weekly runs a short drive from it that run through there. Haven't done it yet but have considered it - they are probably 30/45 minute drives so I usually just go out and run the roads near the cabin instead.
-OZ-
Footballguy
And now I'm getting an endoscopy tomorrow. Seems like this is better than the colonoscopy, but that makes tomorrow a rest day.Getting the 'ol daily double the day before Thanksgiving - the colonoscopy and endoscopy.
Nice clean out before the big feast. Pooyah!!
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