massraider
Footballguy
Tell you what, they both looked pretty similar to me yesterday. Which isn't good for people expecting Tom to play for 4 or 5 mote years.
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Who's better, Manning or Brady (post cheating spree)? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter BassNBrew
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Yes, today the master of the dink-and-dunk had to try a different trick. He paid for it against the leagues best D.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Walking Boot overstated it, but Manning has been an NFL starter three years longer than Brady (Manning started right away in 1998, Brady has been starting since 2001, both basically missed a whole season due to an injury). I suspect that if Brady is still playing in three years ago, he will look pretty similar to how Manning has looked this season. The decline is not slow; it is fast and sudden.
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devouredbychaos
Footballguy
People are still arguing this?? 
Even if Manning and the Broncos win the Super Bowl, he still won't be as good as Brady.
Even if Manning and the Broncos win the Super Bowl, he still won't be as good as Brady.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
It's silly to argue really, the best one can hope is to be in the conversation, really.
Favre and Elway did it in an era where you could mug recoevers and hit quarterbacks, Marino and Montana did it long before that. They are all great players. Which is the best in undefinable.
Favre and Elway did it in an era where you could mug recoevers and hit quarterbacks, Marino and Montana did it long before that. They are all great players. Which is the best in undefinable.
Jrodicus
Footballguy
2nd in MVP voting?! Wow, what an accomplishment! Said no one ever.
One of his best seasons, and he still doesn't win an MVP? Hmm.....
That's kind of like the Pats fans going to Lucas Oil and saying how cute all of the "AFC South Champion" banners are hanging in the rafters.
Jrodicus
Footballguy
So you are saying that playoff success and winning the SB doesn't make you the better QB? That's good to know, because, that's the only thing Brady has up on Peyton over their careers...People are still arguing this??
Even if Manning and the Broncos win the Super Bowl, he still won't be as good as Brady.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I agree Brady looked like crap yesterday for the most part but I don't see too many qb's around who would put up 3 td's with an offensive line playing like that in front of him. His INT's were inexcusable and went a long ways to costing them the game. His postseason record no doubt has some blemishes.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Hmmmm.People are still arguing this??
Even if Manning and the Broncos win the Super Bowl, he still won't be as good as Brady.
https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?/topic/690399-%E2%9E%BD-the-2nd-best-quarterback-of-all-time-super-bowl-era/?hl=best
Since then...
Brady has gone to 3 straight AFC championships and won 1 of those. Winning 1 SB victory.
Manning has gone to 2 out of 3 AFC Championships, winning both and beating Brady twice! He lost Vs the Seahawks in SB, and plays another in 2 weeks.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
It wasnt cheating; its not denvers fault the tablets werent working properly...or that the league allowed them to keep using theirs. Bronco haters for shame.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Brady is greater if you factor in rings and team success, and most do. He played on better teams with better defenses and better coaching. Spygate will always put a stigma on it in some ways, but it's a sidenote to the conversations, not a focus. They cheated, they got punished more severely for it than any professional sports team in history, and the league office destroyed what they had for evidence, so it's never going away. But it'll fade.
If you're asking who was more talented, it's Manning. Always was. I don't expect Brady to be much different than Manning is now when he gets a little older.
And if you go back and put each of them on identical teams with identical coaching staffs, my money would be on Manning being the "greater" quarterback, too. We'll never know though.
If you're asking who was more talented, it's Manning. Always was. I don't expect Brady to be much different than Manning is now when he gets a little older.
And if you go back and put each of them on identical teams with identical coaching staffs, my money would be on Manning being the "greater" quarterback, too. We'll never know though.
Deamon
Footballguy
Yes I am saying 2nd in MVP voting is better then zero MVP Votes. We're talking about who is better now. Are you really suggesting that had manning not been injured, that his numbers and MVP votes would be better then Brady's? GIve me a break. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you'er a decent football fan and you're being sarcastic here.
Deamon
Footballguy
I think Brady would have a field day with Denver's offensive weapons and defense. Peyton has had some of the best WR's in the game almost all his career. There's no question Brady is the better QB 'right now' right? If you want to do the age thing then we'll have to look at their numbers/rings after they both retire.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I'm not talking about now. If Manning were 3 years younger and healthy, he'd also be having a field day with Denver's offensive weapons and defense. 3 years from now, I don't think Brady will be in that condition either. Yes, Brady is the superior QB right now, but that's a pointless comparison with Manning being a 40 year old on the verge of retirement.
Peyton has had great WRs... and he's a huge part of the reason they were great. I'll also bet he'd have traded some of those great WRs and big numbers for a better defense or coaching staff that would've actually helped the team win like Brady had.
My only point is that cheating or not, whatever... if you go back and have them both playing at the same time (not starting 3 years apart) in identical situations, I believe Manning would've been not only the more talented of the two, but also the "greater."
Deamon
Footballguy
Run It Up
Footballguy
Seem to be confused bud, chicken parm has Brady beat only in regular season production numbers, Brady has the advantage everywhere else.So you are saying that playoff success and winning the SB doesn't make you the better QB? That's good to know, because, that's the only thing Brady has up on Peyton over their careers...People are still arguing this??
Even if Manning and the Broncos win the Super Bowl, he still won't be as good as Brady.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Jrodicus
Footballguy
You said one of Brady's best seasons ever - meaning over his entire career. You brought careers, not this season, into the conversation, not me.
Point remains - this is one of Brady's best seasons, and it's still only almost MVP-worthy.
Jrodicus
Footballguy
Re-read what I wrote, then read your reply. If you don't see 6 one way, half dozen the other, then I've got nothin' for ya.Seem to be confused bud, chicken parm has Brady beat only in regular season production numbers, Brady has the advantage everywhere else.So you are saying that playoff success and winning the SB doesn't make you the better QB? That's good to know, because, that's the only thing Brady has up on Peyton over their careers...People are still arguing this??
Even if Manning and the Broncos win the Super Bowl, he still won't be as good as Brady.
The General
Footballguy
People would want Manning in over Brady to win a game. Not buying that.
Both all time greats. Brady is more clutch.
Both all time greats. Brady is more clutch.
Jrodicus
Footballguy
Define "NOW"...This season? Yeah, Manning was hurt most of it.
AFCCG? Not Brady.
Next game? Not Brady either.
Jrodicus
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
Manning would have been carted out in pieces if you switched teams. Denver DLine dominated all day long.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I'm in the Manning > Brady camp, but how many opportunities did Denver have to end the game with a first down or two? And many first downs did they get in those situations?
Jrodicus
Footballguy
There was a scoring drive early in the 4th to make it an 8 point lead.
Then a 3 and out after the TO on downs inside their own 20. Didn't convert on a long 3rd down (after a false start).
Then they made NE burn timeouts before the 2 minute warning.
So they score on 1 possession, shot themselves in the foot on the next, and Kubiak went clock management at the end of the game. I suppose you could criticize Peyton for not getting in the endzone and settling for a FG, but that's about it.
Jrodicus
Footballguy
Can't say for certain, but I bet he'd have done something that involved saying Omaha many times.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Well yeah, Denver is where they are right now because of the defense. But this just shows you how important a great defense is, especially in evaluating how "clutch" a quarterback is. Peyton is a shell of his former self, a 1:2 TD:INT ratio, barely a top 25 QB in the league right now (if that). Yet, he's in the Super Bowl, something he could rarely accomplish when playing as an unstoppable force at QB, but alongside weak defenses.Anarchy99 said:
Imagine if he had played with really good defenses as much as Brady or especially Roethlisberger, instead of twice in his entire career. How "clutch" or how much of a "winner" would he be if 17 points in the playoffs meant a win instead of a 17-34 loss.
17 points would get Peyton a win in only 27% of his playoff games, compared to 57% for Brady. Flip those defenses around and their playoff records are probably flipped around too.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
No one said he did.Anarchy99 said:
Shanahanigans
Footballguy
Well... Except for head to head playoff record. Manning has the edge there. I guess he's just better than Brady in the playoffs.Seem to be confused bud, chicken parm has Brady beat only in regular season production numbers, Brady has the advantage everywhere else.So you are saying that playoff success and winning the SB doesn't make you the better QB? That's good to know, because, that's the only thing Brady has up on Peyton over their careers...People are still arguing this??
Even if Manning and the Broncos win the Super Bowl, he still won't be as good as Brady.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Pats have held opposing offenses to 17 points or less in 12 playoff games for Brady.
Colts/Broncos have held opposing offenses to 17 points or less in 6 playoff games for Manning.
With their QB ratings being nearly identical in the playoffs (and Peyton's actually much better in the last ~decade), this is the one statistic that really stands out in differentiating their playoff performances, other than wins which of course can be largely attributed to this stat.
Note that 17 is not arbitrary, but is a number I chose some years back when comparing QBs as a cutoff where most competent QBs have a similar .900-.950 winning pct. If a defense holds a team to 17 points or less, you can expect an at least average QB to win about 9 out of 10 times. That means that those 6 extra games where Brady got to play against an offense scoring 17 points or less basically account for 5 or 6 free wins.
For both QBs, the majority of those under 17 games came in their Super Bowl runs (64% of Brady's in his 4 Super Bowl seasons, 50% of Manning's in his 1 Super Bowl season). Having double the number of those games has a major impact on the perception of each's performance in the playoffs. Of course, Peyton's miserable performances in his first 3 playoff appearances also set him down a path whereby people's perceptions were not going to be changed easily. And those first few season is a big difference between the two, as they have been almost identical in the playoffs for the last 10 years or so, but merely above average playoff performance for a decade when people had already decided you were "clutch" does not breed the same response as merely above average playoff performance for a decade when people had already decided you were a "choker".
How many of those games where Peyton's D didn't hold the opponent to less than 17 points were due to Peyton throwing picks at inopportune times, etc.? You can't separate an offense from a defense any more than you can separate a QB from his surrounding cast, coaching, etc. Yes, some defenses are better than others, but points against aren't entirely on the defense (also a product of the position the offense puts them in), and points scored aren't entirely due to the offense (Dilfer being the oft-referred to example). These guys are both HOF QBs, all time greats. In their prime, I'd take whomever I could sign for less money, so that I could invest the difference in OLine/DLine.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Looking at the top 7 years for defensive rankings of each QB:
NE points allowed:
1, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8 = total of 28
IND/DEN points allowed:
1, 2, 4, 4, 7, 7, 8 = total of 33
NE yards allowed:
4, 6, 7, 9, 9, 11, 13 = a total of 59
IND/DEN yards allowed:
1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 8, 11 = a total of 29
The rest of the remaining seasons the Pats had several Top 10 seasons in points allowed and several seasons in the teams. But all their remaining seasons they were Bottom 5-10 in yards allowed.
Most of the remaining IND/DEN seasons the defenses ranked in the high teens or early 20's in both points allowed and yards allowed, Yes, there were 2-3 years where the defense was Bottom 3.
Looking at both Brady's and Manning's careers, both guys seem to have had multiple years with highly ranked defenses. How the QBs and defenses played in the post season may be a different discussion.
NE points allowed:
1, 2, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8 = total of 28
IND/DEN points allowed:
1, 2, 4, 4, 7, 7, 8 = total of 33
NE yards allowed:
4, 6, 7, 9, 9, 11, 13 = a total of 59
IND/DEN yards allowed:
1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 8, 11 = a total of 29
The rest of the remaining seasons the Pats had several Top 10 seasons in points allowed and several seasons in the teams. But all their remaining seasons they were Bottom 5-10 in yards allowed.
Most of the remaining IND/DEN seasons the defenses ranked in the high teens or early 20's in both points allowed and yards allowed, Yes, there were 2-3 years where the defense was Bottom 3.
Looking at both Brady's and Manning's careers, both guys seem to have had multiple years with highly ranked defenses. How the QBs and defenses played in the post season may be a different discussion.
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Right, a fair point, and that brings in not only sample size, but also that Bellichick was much better at gameplanning them into good games than Peyton's coaches were, maybe outside of Dungy (who brought little to the offense but was great with the defense), whom of course Peyton won a Super Bowl with.
For instance, Brady's first two Super Bowls came with "only" the 6th and 12th best defenses, but they were lights out in the postseason holding their opponents to that 17 or under number in 5 out of 6 games. Brady's first Super Bowl was more in the Trent Dilfer role than anything, as he threw 1 TD in the entire run and went for 115 yards in the AFCCG and 145 yards in the Super Bowl.
I think both Brady and Peyton are good illustration of how much a defense defines a quarterback's legacy. There is no doubt that Brady in the meat of his career was a MUCH better quarterback than he was early on in his career as a developing game manager. Yet as a developing game manager he was 9-0 in the playoffs with 3 Super Bowl wins in 4 years. Meanwhile as an unstoppable, record breaking QB he was 10-9 in the playoffs with no Super Bowl wins in a 10 year span.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
I spelled out in the AFCCG thread:
Manning's teams in the playoffs have gone 1-11 when scoring fewer than 20 points (that one stays the same).
Manning's team in the playoffs have gone 10-2 when scoring 23 or more points (that one stays the same).
Manning's teams in the playoffs have gone 9-2 when allowing fewer than 20 points (now 10-2).
Manning's teams in the playoffs have gone 3-9 when allowing 23 or more points (that one stays the same).
Brady's teams in the playoffs have gone 2-6 when scoring fewer than 20 points (now 2-7)
Brady's teams in the playoffs have gone 17-1 when scoring 23 or more points (that one stays the same).
Brady's teams in the playoffs have gone 11-1 when allowing fewer than 20 points (that one stays the same).
Brady's teams in the playoffs have gone 5-6 when allowing 23 or more points (that one stays the same).
Looking across Brady's career, the defense has played pretty similar in the post season over the years. More times than not, the times they have lost in the playoffs have stemmed more from the offense sputtering than the defense giving up a ton of points.
It appears that two important markers this week will be the 20 and 23 points, as those have been pretty indicative in terms of winning or losing in the playoffs for Brady and Manning.
Manning's teams in the playoffs have gone 1-11 when scoring fewer than 20 points (that one stays the same).
Manning's team in the playoffs have gone 10-2 when scoring 23 or more points (that one stays the same).
Manning's teams in the playoffs have gone 9-2 when allowing fewer than 20 points (now 10-2).
Manning's teams in the playoffs have gone 3-9 when allowing 23 or more points (that one stays the same).
Brady's teams in the playoffs have gone 2-6 when scoring fewer than 20 points (now 2-7)
Brady's teams in the playoffs have gone 17-1 when scoring 23 or more points (that one stays the same).
Brady's teams in the playoffs have gone 11-1 when allowing fewer than 20 points (that one stays the same).
Brady's teams in the playoffs have gone 5-6 when allowing 23 or more points (that one stays the same).
Looking across Brady's career, the defense has played pretty similar in the post season over the years. More times than not, the times they have lost in the playoffs have stemmed more from the offense sputtering than the defense giving up a ton of points.
It appears that two important markers this week will be the 20 and 23 points, as those have been pretty indicative in terms of winning or losing in the playoffs for Brady and Manning.
Chaka
Footballguy
Brady's first SB win he had the 6th (points)/24th (yards)
Brady's second SB win it was 1st/7th
Brady's third SB win it was 2nd/9th
For the 4th it was 8th/13th
In his first SB loss it was 4th/4th
In his second SB loss it was 15th/31st
Chaka
Footballguy
Anarchy I think you are trying way too hard to convince people that Manning and Brady have had similar defenses throughout their careers. Beyond ignoring the continuity that comes with having the same HC for all 16 seasons of his career (and that HC being arguably the greatest in the history of the NFL), the bottom line is that Brady has had a top 10 scoring defense for 11 of his 14 seasons as a starter (no one cares about yards).
Manning had a top 10 defense 5 times in 13 seasons in Indianapolis and 2 times in 4 seasons in Denver and that includes this year where I think we can all agree he is a shell of his former self.
Comparing coaching and defenses between Brady and Manning is like comparing apples to spaceships.
Manning had a top 10 defense 5 times in 13 seasons in Indianapolis and 2 times in 4 seasons in Denver and that includes this year where I think we can all agree he is a shell of his former self.
Comparing coaching and defenses between Brady and Manning is like comparing apples to spaceships.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
You are only echoing what I have been saying, just in a different way. Manning has had 7 years with a Top 10 defense and has 1 SB win and 2 SB losses to show for it (and will either be 1-3 or 2-2 in a few weeks).Yes, Manning is not the same guy he used to be, but his team scored over 600 points two seasons ago, so it's not like he's been in a retirement home for years and years. Seven years with a Top 10 scoring defense is ample time to get more titles based on how many points his teams have scored over the years.
Not a lot of QBs get many seasons with Top 10 defenses. For comparison, here are a few others:
Montana 10
Elway 9
Bradshaw 8
Favre 8
Aikman 7
Big Ben 7
Marino 4
Eli 1
Winning teams having top defenses is not really all that alarming. This being the 50 season of the SB era, here's a list of all 32 teams and the percentage of seasons over that time that they each had a Top 10 defense:
BAL 60MIA 58SFO 56PIT 54DAL 50NEP 50DEN 48CHI 44CAR 42.9WAS 40TBB 40NYG 38PHI 38NYJ 38GBP 36OAK 36KCC 36BUF 36STL 36SEA 35MIN 34CLE 34JAX 33.3SDC 30CIN 29.2HOU 28.6IND 28TEN 28DET 24NOS 20.4ATL 20ARI 18(Remember that not all 32 teams have played all 50 seasons.)
Chaka
Footballguy
The problem isn't that Manning has had a top 10 scoring defense 41% of the time in his career and Brady has had one 79% of the time. The problem is that you are trying to use that to create some kind of equivalence between them. You're playing with the statistics.
Another way to look at it is that Brady has failed to make the Super Bowl 6 times with a top 10 scoring defense same as Manning. But Manning has made it to a Super Bowl two times without a top 10 scoring defense and won once, while Brady has made it to one Super Bowl without a top 10 scoring defense and he lost.
Does that make them equivalent? Does that make Manning clearly better?
No. No more than your suggestion that seven seasons with a top 10 scoring defense makes Brady better.
So while your numbers are accurate on some levels it ignores so many other factors including the fact that Brady did it with coaching continuity throughout, while Manning has done it with four head coaches. But even more significant is that Brady has had far more opportunities to succeed with a top 10 scoring defense than Manning has.
It's just not so simple as "They each have had X seasons with Y variable".
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I would also suggest that "Top 10 Scoring Defense" is mostly a maid up term that doesn't always apply. For example, Peyton has played on multiple teams that scored so many points that allowing garbage time points to cut a huge lead at the end of the game would get the team out of the Top 10 but that really wouldn't make the defense all that much worse. It would alter the statistics. If a team isn't up big, it is far less likely to roll over and allow a ton of points. Look at CAR and SEA last week. Do people think CAR would have allowed that many points in a close game?
If people want to suggest that the NE defense has played better in the post season than Peyton's defense, I would have to run some numbers to see if it really worked out that way.
If people want to suggest that the NE defense has played better in the post season than Peyton's defense, I would have to run some numbers to see if it really worked out that way.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
My point was to show that Manning has not been deprived on playing with teams with solid defenses. Has Brady played on teams with more years with decent defenses? Yes. But that doesn't mean Manning has been stuck with terrible defenses many times.
In any event, here are the post-season numbers for NE and IND/DEN defenses (looking only at post-season games):
Brady has played in 31 playoff games and the Patriots have allowed an average of 20.23 ppg in those games.
The offense gave up two points in those games, making the adjusted ppg total allowed by the defense 20.16 ppg.
Manning has played in 26 playoff games and IND/DEN allowed an average of 21.88 ppg in those games.
The offense gave up 32 points in those games, making the adjusted ppg total allowed by the defense 20.65 ppg.
Essentially, the Patriots defense allowed 0.5 points per game less than Manning's defenses have in the post season.
In any event, here are the post-season numbers for NE and IND/DEN defenses (looking only at post-season games):
Brady has played in 31 playoff games and the Patriots have allowed an average of 20.23 ppg in those games.
The offense gave up two points in those games, making the adjusted ppg total allowed by the defense 20.16 ppg.
Manning has played in 26 playoff games and IND/DEN allowed an average of 21.88 ppg in those games.
The offense gave up 32 points in those games, making the adjusted ppg total allowed by the defense 20.65 ppg.
Essentially, the Patriots defense allowed 0.5 points per game less than Manning's defenses have in the post season.
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SacramentoBob
Footballguy
It's already been shown that Brady has a great playoff record even when his QBR is low. His team has always managed to bail him out of the games he doesn't play well. Manning historically has only advanced when his QBR is 90+ in a game.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
The thread title is confusing. Brady has been involved in so many cheating scandals that this season is the first "post cheating scandal". Until the next one at least.
Chaka
Footballguy
It may not be your intention but it really comes off as you trying to suggest that Manning and Brady have been playing with equivalent support, particularly from the defense, throughout their careers. By any measure that is just not the case and you can try to break down the data to reinforce that point any number of ways but data can also work the other way (Brady has a top 10 defense 8 out 10 times compared to Manning who has a top 10 defense 4 out of 10 times).
These are ultimately subjective arguments trying to split hairs between two of the greatest of all time. Brady has been incredible as has Manning, my subjective opinion is that Brady would not have accomplished as much had he and Manning switched places and Manning would have done at least as much as Brady. YMMV.
devouredbychaos
Footballguy
The debate was over last season kids. You're delusional if you think Manning is better than Brady.
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