grateful zed
Footballguy
i am having afterthoughts that his ceiling will be capped at the wr2/w3 level, which may relegate him to jag status.
hope not.
hope not.
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WR Cooper Kupp, LAR (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Penguin
- Start date
Snorkelson
Footballguy
kutta
Footballguy
I saw that Steve Smith had him as the number 1 WR in this class at the combine - ahead of Corey Davis.
https://www.google.com/search?q=steve+smith+cooper+kupp&oq=steve+smith+cooper+kupp&aqs=chrome..69i57.4115j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
https://www.google.com/search?q=steve+smith+cooper+kupp&oq=steve+smith+cooper+kupp&aqs=chrome..69i57.4115j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/06/d6/bc/06d6bce669e83588844676602d132ec5.jpg
Mini Cooper Kupp Holder
Mini Cooper Kupp Holder
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
When you watch his tape he doesn't play slow. I can't figure out why there is not more excitement for this kid. He destroyed everyone that he lined up against year after year since the get-go.
saintfool
Dead sexy
for many observers, the Rams offense is a wreck. there isn't much confidence in Goff after a miserable debut under Fisher.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Sure he looked fast playing against Central Arkansas and Montana State. His combine numbers were pretty bad and he is already 24. He ended up on a very weak offense and he projects to be a slot receiver. There is a lot to not like.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
He also looked fast against Oregon and Washington when he played them. Also put up video game numbers against them. I would more concerned about his age if he didnt produce out of the gate...but he has been working defenses since game one of his college career. I disagree as far as a bad landing spot. A young QB who will probably be playing from behind will be happy to lean on a guy whose top skills are his hands and getting open. I am not saying he is a top 5 NFL WR however I think he will be useful in PPR starting this year.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
Good points about huge numbers against Oregon and Washington. I should watch those games. I assume E. Washington has some kind of rather gimmicky offense, but maybe not. Also, am I correct in saying he played almost entirely out of the slot in college?
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I can see that, but it's weird because it also sounds like the Dolphins are done with Landry. I still don't know if Landry is good or not.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Check out his Oregon highlights. I felt the same as you did before seeing him on the fiels against bigger schools. He seemed to lineup all over the field but probably mostly from the slot. Check out his Oregon highlights and let me know what your thoughts are. It is just one game but pretty darn impressive. I surprised on how quick he looked.
I don't think he's a "stud" but Landry is still a very good football player and was a easy "stud" while he got all the targets, now he's still a really good WR2 and I would think he stays around there the rest of his career. Scored a bunch of fantasy points though so that's all that matters to me if I end up with Kupp and he does go around the same thing
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah, no doubt that if Cupp can perform as well as Landry than the pick was a big success.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
So I watched and here are my takeaways:
- He definitely is quick and can create separation
- He does not look fast to me
- He's strong and really beat up on the DBs
- Just highlights of one game so there was a lot I didn't see: jump ball, tough sideline catch, body control on the boundaries
- Oregon was up big early and held that lead, lots of 5-10 yard cushions to all the EW receivers
Overall, there is some potential there as a quick strong slot guy so I do see the Jarvis comp as a pretty fair.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Jarvis Landry is very good at football. It has been obvious from any time I have watched him. Not sure how you don't see that? Some of the plays he made with Mettenberger throwing terribly off target fast balls were amazing. Chris Carter like hands and body control.
Kupp is also very good at football I am not as impressed by him as Landry but he is very good.
Lots of opportunity with the Rams for whoever can build rapport with Goff. This is still wide open and Kupp seems like a guy who can take advantage of the opportunity.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I was too simplistic. Jarvis is good good at his role, but I am not sure how valuable that really is. He doesn't score TDs, he doesn't and he gains yards on volume. He does have a solid 1st down/target %. I just don't think having a slot guy as your lead WR is a winning tactic in the NFL.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
WagesOfZin
Footballguy
I'd say you have a shot, but it's definitely not a guarantee. If someone ahead of you in the 2nd is enamoured with him, you'll probably be out of luck. On the flip side, if he falls to you at that point of the 2nd and you really like the guy, the value is right to make that pick.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
The New England Pats pass offense was built around Moss and then Gronk, not Welker. In Denver, Demaryius was the top receiver. Welker was always a complementary player.- a great one, but on two historically great offenses.
If the premise is "I just don't think having a slot guy as your lead WR is a winning tactic in the NFL," I'm not sure that citing an offense lead by a TE really accomplishes that.
Is there that great a difference between a move TE and a slot WR in terms of how to attack defenses, that would make one much more practical for building an offense around than the other? Or is it just that Gronk is such a superhuman player that an offense could be built around a guy like that no matter where he lines up?
Genuine question.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Great point and a fair criticism of my point for sure. To me it's just that Gronk is such a freak. I think he is in a Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson tier level where his presence on the field dictates everything the opposing defense does. Here are a couple crazy facts about how good Gronk is.
In HFL history, Antonio Gates holds the record for most TDs by a TE through age 30 with 69. Gronk is one behind him with 68. Execept ofcourse Gronk just turned 28 in May.
In NFL history, Randy Moss holds the record for most receiving TDs through the age of 27. Gronk is second. He is ahead of guys like Rice, Fitzgerald, Dez, Calvin, Alworth.
If you look at players from year 2 through year 6, Gronk basically performs as a high end WR1 (13.1 standard ppg). For reference, Jimmy Graham is the next highest with 10.6 and third is Gates with 9.8. Only Rice, Moss, Calvin and Alworth averaged more than 13.1.
So yes, I do think Gronk is such an extreme outlier that an offense can be built around him. 13.1 ppg is basically the same pace as Julio during that period so Gronk is giving you Julio Jones production from the TE. If there ever is a slot WR that is as good as Gronk comes around, a team can build around him as well. Landry is definitely not that.
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32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Just to clarify, I was responding to this part of your post:
2009 Welker led the team in recpts. Moss wasn't on the roster. Team went 10-6 = winning tactic. I am sure there are more examples, but I am too lazy to post. Maybe you intended to say something different.
steelers1080
Footballguy
I got him at pick 33 in my league, but everyone is basically avoiding the Rams at all costs. Josh Reynolds went above him at 27.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
2009 Moss played for the Patriots and had 83/1264/13Just to clarify, I was responding to this part of your post:
2009 Welker led the team in recpts. Moss wasn't on the roster. Team went 10-6 = winning tactic. I am sure there are more examples, but I am too lazy to post. Maybe you intended to say something different.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Then I will take 2012 for $500 Alex. 
JoeSteeler
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
lol Welker did have a great year 1334/6 and Gronk got hurt so he only played 11 games. Gronk was the lead dog though- his season was pace 1150/16. Also not really related to this, but Wes Welker's drop that year cost them a trip to the Super Bowl. Anyway, we should stop since this a Cooper Kupp thread, but I just don't think searching for the 1 or 2 outliers that may or may not exist is too helpful. I think a pure slot WR as the key cog of an NFL offense is a losing strategy.Then I will take 2012 for $500 Alex.
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rschroeder1
Footballguy
I guess for me I don't see this as much a question of whether the offense is going to be built around Kupp as opposed to the fact that the Rams' offensive future is essentially a blank slate. If you assume Goff will eventually pan out, any of the current receivers have a chance to develop rapport towards being the go-to guy. The way the Rams' prospects look this year, Kupp just has the feel of the guy who may not wow everybody but has the skill set to turn into the guy that Goff trusts, especially a shaky Goff.
Okay so later then I thought he would go. Feel better abt him making it to me now. Thanks for the input
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Agreed.
I have been ranking Rams receivers pretty high for the past couple of years now because of this. I think one of these guys ends up hitting and providing some WR 3 type value in fantasy, possibly even WR 2 upside (where I ranked him) although that seems less likely.
I like Kupps overall skillset and I don't view him as exclusively a slot WR as others have painted him. He seems like the best bet to be that guy Goff leans on.
Josh Reynolds has some nice ability as well though. He just isn't as polished as Kupp in my view.
thriftyrocker
Footballguy
Ehh. Marques Colston, Doug Baldwin, Randall Cobb. Playoff teams who had a good slot WR: NEP, ATL (Sanu), MIA, DAL, SEA, GBP, DET (Boldin), NYG (Shepard).
thriftyrocker
Footballguy
Are we trying to defend the viability of a slot WR as a NFL WR2 on winning football teams? Then yes those are great examples. If we are talking about fantasy production or upside then no. I do think Sanu, Boldin, and Beasley helped their teams win even though they have very little excitement as fantasy plays. The rarity seems to be teams winning with a slot WR as their WR1 (Baldwin, Colston, and arguably Welker being good counter examples), but a WR2 at least anecdotally seems to be no big deal. It will be interesting if Jordan Matthews plays better now that he is the WR2, and that seems a reasonable upside for Kupp (perhaps with better hands).
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
The whole side argument started with a discussion of how valuable Jarvis Landry really is for actual NFL footbal. I see slot WRs as a complimentary piece of the offense, but should not be the top target/centerpiece of a pass attack which is why I thought Landry's perceived NFL value was very overrated. Baldwin and Colston are definitely the exceptions. Cole Beasley and Jamison Crowder are helpful assets for a team, but you don't build a passing attack around those guys. Sanu was pretty good, but he also had the benefit of playing on a really high powered offense where he is arguably the 5th most dangerous weapon on the field at any given time. Boldin caught a lot of TDs, but he couldn't do much more then jog 5 yards, turn around and box someone out. He can't even get a job now so that is pretty telling as to how valuable any NFL team actually thinks he is.
So to try and bring this back to Cooper Kupp. I am skeptical of him as a prospect. Add in the fact that he projects to a slot WR on a bad offense with several other players competing for slot WR type targets and I am not optimistic about his NFL outlook.
thriftyrocker
Footballguy
Bad offense is certainly the most harsh criteria here. Jordan Matthews I think is a good, definitely not great NFL WR, but given a similar role with both a below average starter (Bradford) in 15 and a rookie (Wentz) in 16 as the WR1 of the offense in he was ok at best for fantasy, despite the offense putting up a decent volume of attempts. At this point Goff seems no better than either of those options. If the Rams had a great QB then I wouldn't see much reason for pessimism. There's not enough of those QBs to go around. Although if somehow the Rams end up with Cousins I'd be sufficiently (more) excited for Kupp. As someone who's optimistic for Kupp, replicating what Sanu and Boldin did last season would be worthwhile to cement him as an NFL starter, and hope the Rams situation improves. Matthews' rookie season he put up 67/872/8 with Foles and Sanchez as the QB and Maclin still on the team. I don't see why Kupp can't get 67 catches even with Woods and Austin taking some snaps at slot. If he replicates Matthews' rookie season what is his dynasty value next year in PPR leagues? Top 50 overall? Matthews was a top 30 player his 2nd year, partly due to Maclin leaving and the Chip Kelly buzz not wearing off. If McVay's reputation as innovator or QB whisperer is somehow reinforced by 17 then it's possible Kupp could be highly valuable despite his limitations.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
There is a lot of talk about his limitations. The guy has decent size, good quicks, worker-bee attitude, runs excellent routes and has great hands. I think those are pretty good qualities to have a chance to be productive. However I do understand that it is sexier to be 6'5" and run a sub 4.50 forty like Dorial Green-Beckham who at the same age as Kupp no longer has an NFL job.
I don't expect Kupp to turn into Julio Jones but I think there is a place for him to make some noise in the reception category. I would be surprised if he doesn't catch 60-70 balls this season and if the Rams can start turning the ship around somewhat he has a chance to be a big part of that.
I don't expect Kupp to turn into Julio Jones but I think there is a place for him to make some noise in the reception category. I would be surprised if he doesn't catch 60-70 balls this season and if the Rams can start turning the ship around somewhat he has a chance to be a big part of that.
