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Mike Tomlin...is it time to go?

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On 1/17/2018 at 1:39 PM, Dr. Octopus said:

Pittsburgh isn't relevant? This is a tough crowd.

With the talent they have had on offense, in particular, they haven't won an AFC Championship since 2010.  7 years of some playoffs wins but not good enough, in my opinion, based on personnel.

Tomlin doesn't know how to game plan or make in game adjustments.  He's a rah rah cheerleader guy.  Good for him for fleecing the Rooneys for all these years.

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6 minutes ago, Bad_Mo said:

With the talent they have had on offense, in particular, they haven't won an AFC Championship since 2010.  7 years of some playoffs wins but not good enough, in my opinion, based on personnel.

Just having talent on offense is not always enough - plus Bell has been out for some of those playoff runs. But my main point once again is that holding a team to a standard where seven whole years of not making the Super Bowl is so damning, just seems a little ridiculous. There have been only 3 teams in the AFC that have been to the Super Bowl during that time frame and two of them have first ballot Hall of Fame QBs with the Broncos also having an elite level defense.

Losing to the Jaguars at home was a bad loss of course, but these things happen. The Steelers have been relevant for a pretty long period of time - it seems strange to argue otherwise.

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4 hours ago, Godsbrother said:

But they did host one.

Two.

Pontiac Silverdome
XVI - San Francisco 26, Cincinnati 21   :kicksrock:

Ford Field
XL - Pittsburgh 21, Seattle 10

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13 minutes ago, Buzzbait said:

Two.

Pontiac Silverdome
XVI - San Francisco 26, Cincinnati 21   :kicksrock:

Ford Field
XL - Pittsburgh 21, Seattle 10

You're right!   I forgot all about the Silverdome.   

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2 hours ago, Bad_Mo said:

With the talent they have had on offense, in particular, they haven't won an AFC Championship since 2010.  7 years of some playoffs wins but not good enough, in my opinion, based on personnel.

 

The bolded part is the issues. They have a slightly above average to good defense. That‘s why they lack success in the playoffs.

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On 2018-01-19 at 7:53 AM, fred_1_15301 said:

Ok fine.  2-3 bad playoff losses in the Tomlin era.

2007 - Steelers were actually home dogs against a pretty good Jags team.  They lost but that game came down to the wire

2008 - Superbowl win

2010 - Superbowl loss to the favored Packers.  Again, the game came down to the last drive when Ben's int sealed it.

2011 - Steelers lose to Tebow.  Terrible loss but that Steelers team was dealing with a lot of injuries on defense and it showed.  Still a bad loss though.

2014 - Steelers lose to Ravens.  Those 2 teams were not very far apart to begin with but the injury to Leveon killed the Steelers. The Ravens just dominated that game and were clearly the better team without Bell.

2015 - Steelers lose to Denver (eventual super bowl winner).  This would have been a pretty big upset as the Steelers were without Brown and Bell.  they still made it exciting Ben probably had more success against that defense than anyone else in the playoffs.

2016 - Steelers lose to the Patriots (eventual super bowl winner).  Patriots were favored but I'll concede that this was probably a bad loss.  It wasn't the fact that they lost but it was how unprepared they were against Brady.  

2017 - Steelers lose to Jags at home.  This was a bad loss and Tomlin was outcoached (and possibly a little unprepared).

So he's had a few bad playoff losses (most coaches have) but he's also had some success.  The success was mostly earlier in his career but it still should count.  Right now I believe he's a top 10 coach but the story isn't finished yet.

 

George Seifert had the highest winning percentage in the history of the nfl After about 6 years as the head coach. Jim Caldwell went 14-2 and went to the super bowl.

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19 minutes ago, voiceofunreason said:

George Seifert had the highest winning percentage in the history of the nfl After about 6 years as the head coach. Jim Caldwell went 14-2 and went to the super bowl.

I honestly don’t even know what point you’re trying to make here by citing a couple examples of coaches who had some of the best QBs in the history of the game at their disposal.  I never even said Tomlin was a great coach.  

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So bell is late for ths wak through for a playoff game?? Yeah tomlin has control of this team....what you think marrone and coughlin would do? Oh yeah fournettte sat when he was late...granted not playoffs. But i bet ya this wasnt bells first offense

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1 hour ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

So bell is late for ths wak through for a playoff game?? Yeah tomlin has control of this team....what you think marrone and coughlin would do? Oh yeah fournettte sat when he was late...granted not playoffs. But i bet ya this wasnt bells first offense

How well do you think sitting Bell for a playoff game would have gone with the Steelers fan base?

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18 minutes ago, Yenrub said:

How well do you think sitting Bell for a playoff game would have gone with the Steelers fan base?

No win situation for Tomlin but after Sunday he should be used to it

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2 hours ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

So bell is late for ths wak through for a playoff game?? Yeah tomlin has control of this team....what you think marrone and coughlin would do? Oh yeah fournettte sat when he was late...granted not playoffs. But i bet ya this wasnt bells first offense

Bell trying to make sure he is not a Steeler next year?   

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1 hour ago, Yenrub said:

How well do you think sitting Bell for a playoff game would have gone with the Steelers fan base?

You don't bench him for the whole game; you bench him for the first series or two.  Doing nothing basically tells the players that they can do whatever they want.

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18 hours ago, fred_1_15301 said:

I honestly don’t even know what point you’re trying to make here by citing a couple examples of coaches who had some of the best QBs in the history of the game at their disposal.  I never even said Tomlin was a great coach.  

Guys who took over super bowl winning teams with hof coaches probably have it slightly easier than guys taking over for the Browns. Doesnt mean they're great or even good coaches. Could it have been anymore obvious? Seriously, it wasn't really obvious?

I'd say Tomlin is below average. He seems to have no input into the defense or offense and they have a lot of problems in the dressing room. So I don't get what he really brings to the table.

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41 minutes ago, voiceofunreason said:

Guys who took over super bowl winning teams with hof coaches probably have it slightly easier than guys taking over for the Browns. Doesnt mean they're great or even good coaches. Could it have been anymore obvious? Seriously, it wasn't really obvious?

I'd say Tomlin is below average. He seems to have no input into the defense or offense and they have a lot of problems in the dressing room. So I don't get what he really brings to the table.

He’s been in the league a long time.  I acknowledged that his early success was partly a result of the team he inherited but he’s had success most of his time in Pittsburgh.  I would say at worst he’s an average coach but that’s just me.

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17 hours ago, Yenrub said:

How well do you think sitting Bell for a playoff game would have gone with the Steelers fan base?

You dont get it. Its the environment tomlin,created with the team...you think this is the first meeting or walk through hes been late to? I doubt it. Bells a clown as a person obviously...like most spartys

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I remember when the Chargers went 14-2 and fired their head coach.  I can tell you from experience that you're probably gonna have a bad time.

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8 hours ago, voiceofunreason said:

Guys who took over super bowl winning teams with hof coaches probably have it slightly easier than guys taking over for the Browns. Doesnt mean they're great or even good coaches. Could it have been anymore obvious? Seriously, it wasn't really obvious?

I'd say Tomlin is below average. He seems to have no input into the defense or offense and they have a lot of problems in the dressing room. So I don't get what he really brings to the table.

Holy f, you are my new favorite poster,  I think I said this 6 years ago and repeat it every year since.  Tomlinsucks ### !

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On 1/18/2018 at 9:58 PM, zftcg said:

Yeah, it's really unfortunate for the Steelers that he keeps winning. If only they had a coach who lost more, then the team could really improve!

Problem is they don’t win. The Patriots have meaningful wins with what I would argue is often times less talent.

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1 hour ago, Saboo said:

Problem is they don’t win. The Patriots have meaningful wins with what I would argue is often times less talent.

Huh? I was responding to your post that said they were "competitive". That would seem to imply that they've won.

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4 hours ago, Riversco said:

I remember when the Chargers went 14-2 and fired their head coach.  I can tell you from experience that you're probably gonna have a bad time.

I'd love to see aggregate stats for teams that fired coaches after winning seasons. My guess is that most declined the following year.

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10 hours ago, Saboo said:

Problem is they don’t win. The Patriots have meaningful wins with what I would argue is often times less talent.

Except at the most important position.

 

If you're going to compare Tomlin vs BB then I think even Tomlin's mom would agree with you that BB is the better coach.  

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On 1/20/2018 at 9:27 PM, DocHolliday said:

Bell trying to make sure he is not a Steeler next year?   

Maybe Tomlin will give him the James Harrison treatment and Bell comes to NE for a chance at some rings.

By all accounts, Harrison has bought into the Patriot Way and has made some nice contributions on the field.  Thank you, Mikey, for treating a life long Steeler like he was a washed up has been.  

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16 hours ago, Riversco said:

I remember when the Chargers went 14-2 and fired their head coach.  I can tell you from experience that you're probably gonna have a bad time.

Moron GM. Then again marty wanted to hire his son brian to be OC. 

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May as well. If he ends up playing the Pats, he will just trot out his failed zone D that Brady picks apart every time as he stand there with his mouth open, wondering why it isn't working.

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Maybe not all on Tomlin. Team played the same (on offense under Cowher).

Big Ben - for all his greatness - is mistake-prone and lacks accountability. Mistakes won't kill you against raggedy opponents, but absolutely kill you in the biggest games which is exactly where Steelers teams have failed with Ben under center. They're as much to thank for this Patriots dynasty as anyone.

Too many INTs, too much finger-pointing... other than that he has been awesome.

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Tomlin is not without his faults but he is one of best head coaches in the NFL.  If he were let go by the Steelers he would be out of a job for about 5 minutes.  

He is not even close to being on thin ice with Pittsburgh.   My response to the "fire Tomlin" crowd is always the same:  if you sack Tomlin you better have a damn good replacement.

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On 1/19/2018 at 12:11 PM, Bad_Mo said:

With the talent they have had on offense, in particular, they haven't won an AFC Championship since 2010.  7 years of some playoffs wins but not good enough, in my opinion, based on personnel.

Tomlin doesn't know how to game plan or make in game adjustments.  He's a rah rah cheerleader guy.  Good for him for fleecing the Rooneys for all these years.

he's badly outcoached on a consistent basis. They're considerably worse on the road than at home. they have the most talented offense in the NFL and yet they don't win playoff games or ge tto the SB. Yes, it's time to go , been true for about 3-4 years, just the same as Mike McCarthy - his unwillingness to change/adapt to modern football did him in, and it should be the same fate for Tomlin.

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Thought experiment: Tomlin is let go after this season, and immediately all 31 other teams announce they will fire their current HC on the spot if Tomlin wants to come coach their team. Whose fans are mad?

Pats and Rams for sure. Saints and Eagles, most likely. Maybe Chiefs (although talk to them after another Andy Reid playoff flame-out).Vikings, though more because Zimmer is so beloved. Maybe a few of the teams with young HCs who seem to be building something good, like Colts, 49ers or Bears? That still leaves more than 20 teams whose fan bases would be absolutely thrilled if their teams went out and got Tomlin.

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Mike McCarty was the most overrated coach in the NFL.

That title now belongs to Mike Tomlin. No current coach has done less with more.

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13 hours ago, zftcg said:

Thought experiment: Tomlin is let go after this season, and immediately all 31 other teams announce they will fire their current HC on the spot if Tomlin wants to come coach their team. Whose fans are mad?

Pats and Rams for sure. Saints and Eagles, most likely. Maybe Chiefs (although talk to them after another Andy Reid playoff flame-out).Vikings, though more because Zimmer is so beloved. Maybe a few of the teams with young HCs who seem to be building something good, like Colts, 49ers or Bears? That still leaves more than 20 teams whose fan bases would be absolutely thrilled if their teams went out and got Tomlin.

He's a dinosaur.  You need an offensive mindset in today's NFL.  He might convert a bottom feeder into an also-ran with his rah-rah MO but minus already present talent on the offensive side, those teams aren't going anywhere.

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It is funny that when Tomlin won his Super Bowl his critics were saying it was because of the talent that Cowher had assembled.  Now his critics apparently give him no credit for the talent that's been on the team over the last decade.  Tomlin has a HUGE input on draft day and the development of the players.  He has had some misses but overall he's done a pretty good job.

In 12 seasons he has never had a losing season, won a Super Bowl, been to another, 3 AFC Championship games and has the 15th best all time winning percentage but somehow isn't a good coach.   The Steelers are the third highest scoring team in the NFL this year but yet he doesn't have an offensive mindset?  Silly stuff.   

It is fine if you think the Steelers should fire him but who do you want to replace him with?     The Steelers are almost always in contention because they don't have revolving doors on the head coaches office.    I have no desire to go down the route of the Cleveland Browns or Buffalo Bills.

Tomlin's going to have to have a couple losing seasons before he is on the hot seat.    Like him or hate him, he isn't going anywhere.

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51 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

It is funny that when Tomlin won his Super Bowl his critics were saying it was because of the talent that Cowher had assembled.  Now his critics apparently give him no credit for the talent that's been on the team over the last decade.  Tomlin has a HUGE input on draft day and the development of the players.  He has had some misses but overall he's done a pretty good job.

In 12 seasons he has never had a losing season, won a Super Bowl, been to another, 3 AFC Championship games and has the 15th best all time winning percentage but somehow isn't a good coach.   The Steelers are the third highest scoring team in the NFL this year but yet he doesn't have an offensive mindset?  Silly stuff.   

It is fine if you think the Steelers should fire him but who do you want to replace him with?     The Steelers are almost always in contention because they don't have revolving doors on the head coaches office.    I have no desire to go down the route of the Cleveland Browns or Buffalo Bills.

Tomlin's going to have to have a couple losing seasons before he is on the hot seat.    Like him or hate him, he isn't going anywhere.

I think some of his problems as a coach have been hidden by having a HOF QB leading the team. That alone will give you a winning record most years, and this team has been carried by the offense recently, not the defense. Granted, that's all part of the package. I don't automatically feel like he should be replaced, but I also don't feel like he should be held in such high regard that he's untouchable or one of the elite coaches in the game, either.  Honestly, I'm undecided on how I feel about him as a coach.

My issues with Tomlin relate to a issues beyond the talent level of the team. It's them continuously showing up flat for long periods of important games and playing down to the competition when it should be an easier win. It's his awful clock management and in-game management where he and his staff rarely seem to make adjustments when things aren't working. And most importantly, it's the continuous decline in discipline on the team and that players feel it's OK to act that way with no consequences. I get it, he's a players' coach and all, but there doesn't seem to be much of a line.

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3 minutes ago, Steelers4Life said:

I think some of his problems as a coach have been hidden by having a HOF QB leading the team. That alone will give you a winning record most years, and this team has been carried by the offense recently, not the defense. Granted, that's all part of the package. I don't automatically feel like he should be replaced, but I also don't feel like he should be held in such high regard that he's untouchable or one of the elite coaches in the game, either.  Honestly, I'm undecided on how I feel about him as a coach.

My issues with Tomlin relate to a issues beyond the talent level of the team. It's them continuously showing up flat for long periods of important games and playing down to the competition when it should be an easier win. It's his awful clock management and in-game management where he and his staff rarely seem to make adjustments when things aren't working. And most importantly, it's the continuous decline in discipline on the team and that players feel it's OK to act that way with no consequences. I get it, he's a players' coach and all, but there doesn't seem to be much of a line.

Fair enough but a good number of the recent losses to inferior team have been largely due to the poor play of his HOF QB.     The biggest fault for me has been the inability to restore the defense.

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1 hour ago, Godsbrother said:

The Steelers are the third highest scoring team in the NFL this year but yet he doesn't have an offensive mindset?  Silly stuff.   

You do realize these two are not mutually exclusive, right?  

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3 minutes ago, Short Corner said:

You do realize these two are not mutually exclusive, right?  

Okay tell me exactly how the Steelers do not have an offensive mindset under Tomlin?  

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4 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

Fair enough but a good number of the recent losses to inferior team have been largely due to the poor play of his HOF QB.     The biggest fault for me has been the inability to restore the defense.

Agreed about the defense. Over the years, I think Ben has had more to do with Tomlin not having a losing season than Tomlin himself. 

And I'm not only talking about recently. Maybe it's just a feeling and I'm completely off-base, but the showing up flat and losing to or being challenged by inferior teams isn't just a recent thing. Ben has had some unexpected clunkers, sure, but he's been the reason they've won a lot more than the reason they've lost.

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If the Steelers fired Tomlin he'd probably be unemployed just long enough to answer the next phone call. 

Or he could wait and have many options. 

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1 minute ago, -OZ- said:

If the Steelers fired Tomlin he'd probably be unemployed just long enough to answer the next phone call. 

Or he could wait and have many options. 

Very true. But that's not the question, really. There's no question about what his reputation is, but there's definitely a question as to whether or not he's worth that reputation.

That said, there are plenty of teams that would see Tomlin as an upgrade over what they have. My opinion is that more teams see him that way than probably should.

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3 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

If the Steelers fired Tomlin he'd probably be unemployed just long enough to answer the next phone call. 

Or he could wait and have many options. 

Sounds like alot of NFL retreads. Doesnt mean anything really

Edited by Cowboysfan8

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4 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

Okay tell me exactly how the Steelers do not have an offensive mindset under Tomlin?  

Is this an intentional Strawman or just poor reading comprehension?

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1 minute ago, Steelers4Life said:

Agreed about the defense. Over the years, I think Ben has had more to do with Tomlin not having a losing season than Tomlin himself. 

And I'm not only talking about recently. Maybe it's just a feeling and I'm completely off-base, but the showing up flat and losing to or being challenged by inferior teams isn't just a recent thing. Ben has had some unexpected clunkers, sure, but he's been the reason they've won a lot more than the reason they've lost.

Of course Ben is a big reason for winning because he is the QB and a really good one at that.  Tomlin and Colbert have put together a pretty good offense around Ben -- I think they deserve some credit for that.  

I agree the Steelers come up flat more often than they should but that happened under Cowher as well.  Really about the only team that rarely happens to is the Patriots

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On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 5:00 PM, voiceofunreason said:

George Seifert had the highest winning percentage in the history of the nfl After about 6 years as the head coach. Jim Caldwell went 14-2 and went to the super bowl.

Jim Caldwell took over a Super Bowl ready team.  Manning ran that team.

Went 14-2 with Peyton, 2-14 without Peyton.

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1 minute ago, Da Guru said:

Jim Caldwell took over a Super Bowl ready team.  Manning ran that team.

Went 14-2 with Peyton, 2-14 without Peyton.

You mean Dungy wasn't the offensive genius behind that juggernaut?  Next you're going to tell me that Billick wasn't the guy behind that Ravens D

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On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2015 at 8:38 PM, Steelers4Life said:

I don't like Tomlin. I think he makes poor decisions regarding clock management and his teams continuously fail to make in-game adjustments. The Steelers play down to their competition too often and don't always have the killer instinct to put teams away that was always a trademark of Cowher's teams (as evidenced by Cowher's record when holding a 10 point lead at any point in the game). It's too often that my friends and I are left wondering what he was thinking.

That said, they'd be foolish to let him go. This team lost it's starting center and star RB, it's star QB for a few games, and had a defense lacking playmakers in the secondary and consistent pash-rushers up front. And despite that, they should still end up with 10 wins and a shot at the playoffs.

What did people really expect from the Steelers this year? This is a team that had a dynamic offense that lost it's best player, and a mediocre-at-best defense.... people jumped on the bandwagon because they're about the only team in the AFC with an offense capable of scoring with the Patriots.

They should've smashed the Ravens, and Tomlin's awful decision making led - at least in part - to their first loss against the Ravens this year. But I don't think this was better than a 10 win team regardless.

LOL I posted this almost exactly 3 years ago. Pretty much the same feeling I have today.

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1 minute ago, Short Corner said:

Is this an intentional Strawman or just poor reading comprehension?

Neither.  You made the claim that Tomlin is a dinosaur and doesn't have an offensive mindset.  I was asking for your reasoning behind that statement.  

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1 minute ago, Godsbrother said:

Neither.  You made the claim that Tomlin is a dinosaur and doesn't have an offensive mindset.  I was asking for your reasoning behind that statement.  

You asked me to explain why the Steelers don't have an offensive mindset when I never argued that they didn't.  Just like the Dungy didn't have much to do with the Colts great offense and Billick didn't have much to do with the Ravens D, the production of the Steelers offense has little to do with Mike Tomlin.

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11 minutes ago, Steelers4Life said:

Very true. But that's not the question, really. There's no question about what his reputation is, but there's definitely a question as to whether or not he's worth that reputation.

That said, there are plenty of teams that would see Tomlin as an upgrade over what they have. My opinion is that more teams see him that way than probably should.

That might be true. 

I think he's among the top 20 coaches in the league. Maybe Steeler fans think otherwise?

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