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NYTimes: How the Daily Fantasy Sports Industry Turns Fans Into Suckers (1 Viewer)

Not shocking. Professional gambling sites are only profitable for a small percentage. Most people lose money. Same thing happens at any casino. Heck the same thing happens in a regular fantasy football league, it's just generally for smaller amounts of money since you aren't buying in every single week.

 
What's the difference between DFS and playing poker at a casino, investing in the stock market or sports gambling? Of course the average joe is going to lose money.

I'm up over 3K this year on DK's and I'm no expert and don't use computer programs. This is much ado about nothing.

 
Not shocking. Professional gambling sites are only profitable for a small percentage. Most people lose money. Same thing happens at any casino. Heck the same thing happens in a regular fantasy football league, it's just generally for smaller amounts of money since you aren't buying in every single week.
This isn't quite casino gambling. Casino gambling is literally designed to cheat the player. The trick is to design games that look 50/50 but aren't. You've probably heard that blackjack is a 51/49 house advantage, but you're far lower than 50/50 to win any given hand. Your odds of winning are

You score more than the dealer - you win

You score less than the dealer - they win

You bust and the dealer doesn't - they win

The dealer busts and you don't - you win

You both bust - they win

That last one is the killer. The house has a huge, I mean enormous advantage because they get to go last. So big that they'll even offer you extra stuff, like splitting pairs when you want to and doubling down and even giving you 150% of your money if you get a blackjack.

Fantasy sports is more like poker. You play against each other. The games aren't rigged but the house takes a big bite out of every contest. In the long run if the house takes a 10 percent commission you have to win 10 times for every 9 you lose just to break even because you win 9 bucks 10 times and lose 10 bucks nine times.

The secret sucker part though is that a lot more players lose and quit than win and quit. If you win 5 times and lose once, nobody's going to convince you that you shouldn't play again. But if you lose five and only win once, you're probably going to give up. That's what builds those beautiful casinos and pays for shiploads of ads.

They don't want you to quit. That's why they design ways to keep you there. Free drinks at the casino. Bonus bucks you earn by playing more on the fantasy sites. Ads. Radio, web and television content with tricks the pros use to win. It's all designed to get you to start playing then keep you playing longer than you otherwise would. Because nobody quits when they're up and the longer you play, the more you lose, even if you're an above average player. Those are mathematical certainties.

The house is the house. They don't care who wins and loses, they make the same amount on every contest entry so all they want is to get more people to play. The players don't care how many people play they just want easier competition. So both parties have a huge interest in seeing new, bad players start gambling.

Let's assume there's no skill in predicting player performance. Even then there's a basic skill in setting lineups - checking at the last minute to make sure your guy is playing. If the pros never accidentally start a hurt player and the fish sometimes do, that's enough to gain an edge. Over hundreds of games that's enough.

Now add in another skill - choosing players who are unlikely to be in many rosters. That makes it more likely that if a low owned guy blows up, you'll be one of the few guys that owned him. Like Jeff Janis this week. If you know who is owned on a lot of rosters on Sunday morning, you have an advantage. A lot of pros get this by entering Thursday rosters with a bunch of cheap lineups, seeing the percent ownership stats that the site doesn't provide until after rosters lock, then using that extra information to set their more lucrative Sunday entries into big prize money tournaments. It's the equivalent of counting cards in blackjack - you bet a dollar a hand until the deck is in your favor then you bet a thousand a hand. Except unlike card counting, the house doesn't care - they make the same whether you win or lose. It's the other players who are paying for their wins, but they don't even know it, because their odds of winning a tournament were so low to begin with and they enter so few times that they can't even tell they were being cheated.

The list of small edges goes on. And the pros don't see it as cheating. They are using publicly available information to make better decisions. The sites don't care. The pros enter a lot of times and the fish only a few. If anything, they want to help the pros, as long as they don't help so much it scares away the fish. It's the fish who are getting screwed and they don't even know it.

Picking the players is an important part of the game. It's definitely a big part of the skill of winning. But it's the other stuff where daily fantasy players are playing on an uneven playing field that makes it almost impossible to win for the average player. You need to know all the good tricks, set all your lineups correctly, and beat the vig. It's too much for all but the most dedicated people to overcome.

 
I found this really interesting. I think I knew high volume players had better odds, but the arguments for how advantages are gained by seeking out newbies was news to me.

How the Daily Fantasy Sports Industry Turns Fans Into Suckers

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/magazine/how-the-daily-fantasy-sports-industry-turns-fans-into-suckers.html?mwrsm=Email&_r=0
It's hard to believe nobody ever thought of gambling on football before.

Seriously, if it wasn't for gambling people would see how boring the games really are. It's been the NFL's bread and butter forever and if you think people are winning you are as naive as this article.

 
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I always thought the game of skill/game of chance distinction was kind of silly. Everything, from fantasy to poker to the stock market, combines skill with chance.

To me, the distinction has to do with scale. The difference between season-long and DFS is the difference between poker with your buddies and poker online. You're playing against a far bigger number of people, some of whom will be sharks, and those people will be very good at taking your money. Yes, I know you can form private DFS leagues and such, but that's not what DK/FD are selling.

What I hadn't realized until I read the article was just how stacked the DFS deck was in favor of sharks. It's not just that they have computer algorithms, it's that the leagues need them as much if not more than they need the leagues, so they have to bend over backward to accommodate their needs.

I don't think people are suckers for playing DFS, anymore than I think people are suckers for gambling. I just think you have to know why you're playing. If you look at it as paying for entertainment, you're much less likely to come away disappointed.

 
BFred your blackjack odds are ignoring that you can stay on a 6 against a 6 which is a huge deal.

 
BFred your blackjack odds are ignoring that you can stay on a 6 against a 6 which is a huge deal.
I think it's included in the "The dealer busts and you don't - you win"

In this case you stand on 16 with a dealer showing a 6 hoping he busts.

 
Thanks for posting. I threw $25 bucks in this year. Played three weeks and cashed out winning 5 bucks or so. Wasn't for me. Glad I did

 
I stopped playing as soon as FD asked for my social. When I asked why they needed considering I deposited $50 and was down to $30 on the year, they said it was "for my protection"

 
I stopped playing as soon as FD asked for my social. When I asked why they needed considering I deposited $50 and was down to $30 on the year, they said it was "for my protection"
You got off easy. I've had an account with them for years but barely played and made a $200 deposit late in the NFL season and they asked for my photo ID and specified I also needed to include a clear and recent head shot. I was never going to give them my ID, but when they asked for a head shot it enraged me. I was trying to play DFS, not join fantasyfootballonly.com and get a date. So I said no and they still tried to tell me I could not get my $200 out unless I verified myself with a photo ID and headshot. Seriously. Took about 3 weeks and I finally got it back but nothing is going to give me back those few hours I spent haggling with them over giving me my money back.

 
FD asked me for a dikpic before they would release my winnings.

 
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What an idiot. Of course you are going to catch pro playing H2Hs. Also it is pretty reasonable to expect pro's in a $20 50/50. He should be playing at the $1 and $2 tables.

 
I stopped playing as soon as FD asked for my social. When I asked why they needed considering I deposited $50 and was down to $30 on the year, they said it was "for my protection"
You got off easy. I've had an account with them for years but barely played and made a $200 deposit late in the NFL season and they asked for my photo ID and specified I also needed to include a clear and recent head shot. I was never going to give them my ID, but when they asked for a head shot it enraged me. I was trying to play DFS, not join fantasyfootballonly.com and get a date. So I said no and they still tried to tell me I could not get my $200 out unless I verified myself with a photo ID and headshot. Seriously. Took about 3 weeks and I finally got it back but nothing is going to give me back those few hours I spent haggling with them over giving me my money back.
There's a dating site for everything these days, you may be on to something...

 
I stopped playing as soon as FD asked for my social. When I asked why they needed considering I deposited $50 and was down to $30 on the year, they said it was "for my protection"
You got off easy. I've had an account with them for years but barely played and made a $200 deposit late in the NFL season and they asked for my photo ID and specified I also needed to include a clear and recent head shot. I was never going to give them my ID, but when they asked for a head shot it enraged me. I was trying to play DFS, not join fantasyfootballonly.com and get a date. So I said no and they still tried to tell me I could not get my $200 out unless I verified myself with a photo ID and headshot. Seriously. Took about 3 weeks and I finally got it back but nothing is going to give me back those few hours I spent haggling with them over giving me my money back.
There's a dating site for everything these days, you may be on to something...
If you're looking to date DFS suckers, do not go to www.bumhunter.com. Trust me.

 
I stopped playing as soon as FD asked for my social. When I asked why they needed considering I deposited $50 and was down to $30 on the year, they said it was "for my protection"
You got off easy. I've had an account with them for years but barely played and made a $200 deposit late in the NFL season and they asked for my photo ID and specified I also needed to include a clear and recent head shot. I was never going to give them my ID, but when they asked for a head shot it enraged me. I was trying to play DFS, not join fantasyfootballonly.com and get a date. So I said no and they still tried to tell me I could not get my $200 out unless I verified myself with a photo ID and headshot. Seriously. Took about 3 weeks and I finally got it back but nothing is going to give me back those few hours I spent haggling with them over giving me my money back.
There's a dating site for everything these days, you may be on to something...
If you're looking to date DFS suckers, do not go to www.bumhunter.com. Trust me.
There are probably a lot of women out there who used to date guys who now spend all their time & money betting DFS.

 
What an idiot. Of course you are going to catch pro playing H2Hs. Also it is pretty reasonable to expect pro's in a $20 50/50. He should be playing at the $1 and $2 tables.
My feeling was always that, even in a $20 50/50.. If I hit a pro, he's probably playing a few different lineups and maybe I hit one of his "off" lineups...lol

The Real news IMO are these Scripts and how/why you should never ever play in a tournament.

 
What an idiot. Of course you are going to catch pro playing H2Hs. Also it is pretty reasonable to expect pro's in a $20 50/50. He should be playing at the $1 and $2 tables.
My feeling was always that, even in a $20 50/50.. If I hit a pro, he's probably playing a few different lineups and maybe I hit one of his "off" lineups...lol

The Real news IMO are these Scripts and how/why you should never ever play in a tournament.
I do agree. Normally I would play in one $2 tournament a week. I will not do that again.

When I first started, a couple of years ago, I played one H2H. I lost. I got a little pissed, so I played the same guy again. I did this about four weeks in a row, and lost every time. Finally I looked more closely at who I was playing. It was Condia. At the time he was listed #2 or #3 on Fanduel. I figured it is stupid to knowingly play one of the top guys. I started looking at the opponent more closely to see who was offering the game, and staying away from the top guys.

I've played a mix of 50/50 and H2H games. I seemed to have better luck with the H2H games, so this year I stuck to H2H games. One of the more enlightening things to come from this article is how 50/50s are dominated by the top players. My thinking was that there were a lot of normal players in the 50/50s. There are some, but his claim is that two thirds of the field is sharks. That makes sense and certainly explains why I was much more successful in H2Hs than 50/50s.

There are comparisons being made between online poker and DFS. In both the sharks are bumhunting. They are looking to fleece the weaker players. The difference is that in online poker a shark might be able to play, say, three tables at once. If there are nine other players at each table, the shark can be taking money from 27 people at a time. In DFS there are unlimited line ups they can enter. So on any given Sunday a shark might be playing 500 or 1000 people. That allows them much more access to a larger number of weaker players.

The tournaments are where things are really one-sided. In a H2H game you might be paired against one shark. But in tournaments you probably have 50 of the best players entering anywhere from 20 to 100 line ups. And they are coming up with a huge number of variations searching for the right combinations to win the contest. When you realize that they are using these sophisticated algorithms to come up with these variations of line ups, you have almost no chance. You would be much better off playing the lottery, because at least you have a random chance. These tournaments are so skewed in favor of the sharks that your chances of winning are almost non-existent.

From now on I will play H2Hs and a league with friends exclusively. That is if DFS isn't dead, or radically changed by next year. Interesting to see what happens between now and next football season in DFS.

 
What an idiot. Of course you are going to catch pro playing H2Hs. Also it is pretty reasonable to expect pro's in a $20 50/50. He should be playing at the $1 and $2 tables.
My feeling was always that, even in a $20 50/50.. If I hit a pro, he's probably playing a few different lineups and maybe I hit one of his "off" lineups...lol

The Real news IMO are these Scripts and how/why you should never ever play in a tournament.
I meant Head to Head.... Not 50/50...

 
I stopped playing as soon as FD asked for my social. When I asked why they needed considering I deposited $50 and was down to $30 on the year, they said it was "for my protection"
You got off easy. I've had an account with them for years but barely played and made a $200 deposit late in the NFL season and they asked for my photo ID and specified I also needed to include a clear and recent head shot. I was never going to give them my ID, but when they asked for a head shot it enraged me. I was trying to play DFS, not join fantasyfootballonly.com and get a date. So I said no and they still tried to tell me I could not get my $200 out unless I verified myself with a photo ID and headshot. Seriously. Took about 3 weeks and I finally got it back but nothing is going to give me back those few hours I spent haggling with them over giving me my money back.
I battled with Fanduel as I didn't want to give my SSN, but they beat me with poor customer service. That is, never got anyone on the phone and all email responses were form letters. Cashed out my $400 and haven't played since.

 
twistd said:
What an idiot. Of course you are going to catch pro playing H2Hs. Also it is pretty reasonable to expect pro's in a $20 50/50. He should be playing at the $1 and $2 tables.
My feeling was always that, even in a $20 50/50.. If I hit a pro, he's probably playing a few different lineups and maybe I hit one of his "off" lineups...lol

The Real news IMO are these Scripts and how/why you should never ever play in a tournament.
I do agree. Normally I would play in one $2 tournament a week. I will not do that again.

When I first started, a couple of years ago, I played one H2H. I lost. I got a little pissed, so I played the same guy again. I did this about four weeks in a row, and lost every time. Finally I looked more closely at who I was playing. It was Condia. At the time he was listed #2 or #3 on Fanduel. I figured it is stupid to knowingly play one of the top guys. I started looking at the opponent more closely to see who was offering the game, and staying away from the top guys.

I've played a mix of 50/50 and H2H games. I seemed to have better luck with the H2H games, so this year I stuck to H2H games. One of the more enlightening things to come from this article is how 50/50s are dominated by the top players. My thinking was that there were a lot of normal players in the 50/50s. There are some, but his claim is that two thirds of the field is sharks. That makes sense and certainly explains why I was much more successful in H2Hs than 50/50s.

There are comparisons being made between online poker and DFS. In both the sharks are bumhunting. They are looking to fleece the weaker players. The difference is that in online poker a shark might be able to play, say, three tables at once. If there are nine other players at each table, the shark can be taking money from 27 people at a time. In DFS there are unlimited line ups they can enter. So on any given Sunday a shark might be playing 500 or 1000 people. That allows them much more access to a larger number of weaker players.

The tournaments are where things are really one-sided. In a H2H game you might be paired against one shark. But in tournaments you probably have 50 of the best players entering anywhere from 20 to 100 line ups. And they are coming up with a huge number of variations searching for the right combinations to win the contest. When you realize that they are using these sophisticated algorithms to come up with these variations of line ups, you have almost no chance. You would be much better off playing the lottery, because at least you have a random chance. These tournaments are so skewed in favor of the sharks that your chances of winning are almost non-existent.

From now on I will play H2Hs and a league with friends exclusively. That is if DFS isn't dead, or radically changed by next year. Interesting to see what happens between now and next football season in DFS.
Actually the tournies are where you should be playing. In the Milly Maker the pros entering the largest number of lineups got smoked week after week. When someone is entering 100 lineups, they are getting into the less than optimal range. The biggest problem playing the tournies is the 15% rake. If your smart and only play the overlay tournies, you will start to see your luck change.

 
What's the difference between DFS and playing poker at a casino, investing in the stock market or sports gambling? Of course the average joe is going to lose money.

I'm up over 3K this year on DK's and I'm no expert and don't use computer programs. This is much ado about nothing.
One big difference is that the stock market is not zero-sum; the average joe will win more often than they lose.

 
BFred your blackjack odds are ignoring that you can stay on a 6 against a 6 which is a huge deal.
and that you never #### up.

Hell, even using a simple counting system necessitates near perfect execution every hand. One slip and youve lost all the advantage you gained.

 
What's the difference between DFS and playing poker at a casino, investing in the stock market or sports gambling? Of course the average joe is going to lose money.

I'm up over 3K this year on DK's and I'm no expert and don't use computer programs. This is much ado about nothing.
One big difference is that the stock market is not zero-sum; the average joe will win more often than they lose.
DFS is not zero-sum, either, so that's not really a difference. ;)

But yes, the stock market is positive-sum while DFS is negative-sum (monetarily, at least). There are other important differences as well, but that's a decent one.

 
Look what showed up in my inbox this AM.

Hello,

At DraftKings, our customers are at the core of everything we do. We are continuously seeking your feedback and optimizing our product to ensure that we are offering the best possible experience for all our users.

Today, as part of an ongoing dialogue with our users, we are taking additional steps to enhance our platform.

We know that efficiency and user experience is extremely important to DraftKings players. To that end, we recently launched a new tool that makes it easier for players to enter their DraftKings lineups, and we will continue to innovate and add features that allow everyone to use our site quickly and efficiently.

With the implementation of the new tool, effective January 29, 2016, DraftKings will prohibit the use of scripts and other automated means of interacting with our site. Though all customers were previously allowed to use scripts, going forward, all users must use only the tools available on the DraftKings site to submit lineups, enter contests, and perform all site activity.

DraftKings is committed to providing competitive and entertaining contests for our players while ensuring transparency of the Daily Fantasy Sports industry and we have been engaged for years in proactively defining ground-rules for responsible play.

We encourage you to send us your feedback and ideas to support@draftkings.com.

Thank you,
The DraftKings Team


 

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