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Mavis

Competitive Fairness in Fantasy Football With This Eras Technology

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So I have been playing fantasy football 20ish years, like many of you. When this began, it was about skill of paying attention and catching on guys you thought were sleepers and who the next big player was. Time and effort mattered... Not everyone was able to watch all the games. Not everyone had spare time to check the latest info.  I used to sit at BWW all day as a young single guy just so I can see everything before I could get the Sunday Ticket, now you dont need to watch a game to get any info at all. 

Now, there is an alert for everything where people who dont even watch football can get all the info and even more than you have. Guys in a few of my leagues who check the site once a week, click all the info buttons yahoo or ESPN now has and does not need to put any time and effort into trying to win. 

ESPN even sent out alert to my entire league telling them to Scoop K. Williams because D. Johnson was hurt.  Used to be you didnt watch the game or care, you wouldnt know...now you wake up Tuesday, make your moves and dont need to care for another week because ESPN told you what to do.

Now I am not talking about if it works out or if those who take service advice are always right, but still, technology did the work for them.

Has fantasy football become more fun or more boring for you as technology makes everyone as an equal and takes the "skill of paying attention and having and advantage" out of the game? Yes, I do consider watching the games and seeing who is good for yourself a skill, all be it a small one. I used to watch games to see what players will have upside, now we have a million places on the internet to tell us. Now I just watch to see if my guy scores, never used to be that way...it was watching to see who I should scoop, now we have apps to tell us. Of course, I am not talking about good owners taking the advice or not because they know better in some cases, but it does level the playing field as far as info it provides to those who dont pay attention. 

Edited by Mavis

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Tough week, huh? Buck up little camper, you'll be all right.

Bottom line, fantasy has always included lots of luck regardless of information access.  I don't find it to be really much different. But my leagues have always been competitive where everyone was paying attention.

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You are correct, it's no longer as enjoyable as it used to be. All the info out there has definitely taken away from the enjoyment and skill. I totally agree with you. 

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It's all luck(unless you win)

Edited by Wrigley
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46 minutes ago, Tool said:

Tough week, huh? Buck up little camper, you'll be all right.

Bottom line, fantasy has always included lots of luck regardless of information access.  I don't find it to be really much different. But my leagues have always been competitive where everyone was paying attention.

When you play in a bunch a leagues you win some you lose some. Lost my big trophy league but won my big money league, its not about me.

This is more about the ESPN alert being sent to everyone in a league to scoop certain players, just seems like if you dont even watch football, you dont need to to play fantasy. 

But since you pointed it out, will like to thank Fowler for coming through in my daily to help me cash in nicely!

 

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44 minutes ago, ctrlaltdefeat said:

You are correct, it's no longer as enjoyable as it used to be. All the info out there has definitely taken away from the enjoyment and skill. I totally agree with you. 

Seems knowing you dont have to pay attention effects the care a bit from some owners, not all. If some are able to just check their phone in the morning to get all the info, why watch? Hardcore fans will, but thats where their advantage came in in years past. Now, watching is not even needed. True story, guy in one league (work league) didnt even realize two games were on Yesterday. SMH

40 minutes ago, Wrigley said:

It's all luck(unless you win)

This is true more than ever, even if you do win though too. If you had Brady, DJ, Bell, Bryant, Green, Julio, Gronk...you lost this week. 

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54 minutes ago, ctrlaltdefeat said:

You are correct, it's no longer as enjoyable as it used to be. All the info out there has definitely taken away from the enjoyment and skill. I totally agree with you. 

Wouldn't it take more skill if more people are getting the same info? Skill in processing the info, not overreacting, drafting the right guys based on value, etc.

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I think these discussions reveal people's biases and frustrations more than anything. The low hanging fruit isn't there anymore and I think you can make the argument that picking it has never been a "skill", regardless of whether you are someone who puts in the time or someone who blindly follows alerts. The "floor" for the worst players in your league has been raised significantly, which makes the hobby more difficult and for many things, challenge = interesting.

I used to be the guy who put in way more time than anyone else and you know what? It didn't translate to "way more" results. I pulled back, found my own personal delta of time/effort and actually saw my results improve.

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1 hour ago, Mavis said:

So I have been playing fantasy football 20ish years, like many of you. When this began, it was about skill of paying attention and catching on guys you thought were sleepers and who the next big player was. Time and effort mattered... Not everyone was able to watch all the games. Not everyone had spare time to check the latest info.  I used to sit at BWW all day as a young single guy just so I can see everything before I could get the Sunday Ticket, now you dont need to watch a game to get any info at all. 

Now, there is an alert for everything where people who dont even watch football can get all the info and even more than you have. Guys in a few of my leagues who check the site once a week, click all the info buttons yahoo or ESPN now has and does not need to put any time and effort into trying to win. 

ESPN even sent out alert to my entire league telling them to Scoop K. Williams because D. Johnson was hurt.  Used to be you didnt watch the game or care, you wouldnt know...now you wake up Tuesday, make your moves and dont need to care for another week because ESPN told you what to do.

Now I am not talking about if it works out or if those who take service advice are always right, but still, technology did the work for them.

Has fantasy football become more fun or more boring for you as technology makes everyone as an equal and takes the "skill of paying attention and having and advantage" out of the game? Yes, I do consider watching the games and seeing who is good for yourself a skill, all be it a small one. I used to watch games to see what players will have upside, now we have a million places on the internet to tell us. Now I just watch to see if my guy scores, never used to be that way...it was watching to see who I should scoop, now we have apps to tell us. Of course, I am not talking about good owners taking the advice or not because they know better in some cases, but it does level the playing field as far as info it provides to those who dont pay attention. 

Why I quit.  Just too random anymore.  Mostly luck.,  

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10 minutes ago, Sabertooth said:

Why I quit.  Just too random anymore.  Mostly luck.,  

This is why I shifted heavily toward draft-and-go (also called "draftmaster) format. I'm not talking all MFL 10's either, there were some great options the "Looking for Leagues" forum this year for some really interesting deep formats that reward well thought out team decisions. It doesn't eliminate luck altogether but makes it less of a factor imo. 

Huge difference in how I enjoy the season, Mavis. Hope you give them a try next year. It's also a good option for people that are starting to feel burnt out on the hobby in general. For the most part I just sit back and enjoy football at this time of the year and only occasionally check in to see the standings how my draftmaster leagues are doing. That "scouting" feeling you miss is definitely present as I think about what sleepers I'll be drafting next spring/summer if their situation gets better than it is now.

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4 minutes ago, ponchsox said:

Sounds like OP lost this week

Maybe. But that doesn't make the points he's making any less valid.

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Just now, BoltBacker said:

This is why I shifted heavily toward draft-and-go (also called "draftmaster) format. I'm not talking all MFL 10's either, there were some great options the "Looking for Leagues" forum this year for some really interesting deep formats that reward well thought out team decisions. It doesn't eliminate luck altogether but makes it less of a factor imo. 

Huge difference in how I enjoy the season, Mavis. Hope you give them a try next year. It's also a good option for people that are starting to feel burnt out on the hobby in general. For the most part I just sit back and enjoy football at this time of the year and only occasionally check in to see the standings how my draftmaster leagues are doing. That "scouting" feeling you miss is definitely present as I think about what sleepers I'll be drafting next spring/summer if their situation gets better than it is now.

I play daily mostly, that has its own issues, but dont they all. I like not having in season injuries and instant winning gratification. 

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2 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

Maybe. But that doesn't make the points he's making any less valid.

Because it sounds like complaining. Yeah, information is available to everyone. So what? Draft better and make better pickups. To say there is no skill in fantasy football is silly. Why am I in the playoffs year after year and other people in my league never make it? That's not all luck.

Edited by ponchsox
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1 minute ago, Mavis said:

I play daily mostly, that has its own issues, but dont they all. I like not having in season injuries and instant winning gratification. 

Ah, well I think most of the things you are complaining about are only amplified by playing daily. At least in my experience. 

I haven't quit in season play cold-turkey but I prefer "start-em-once" survivor during the season now. To each their own.

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If you don't enjoy it you should quit. I enjoy it and still find success. The skill to fantasy is making the playoffs. The rest is luck.

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18 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

Maybe. But that doesn't make the points he's making any less valid.

I agree, the topic of how people handle the competitive fairness because of technology has nothing to do with if I or anyone won. Which, was already addressed. 

16 minutes ago, ponchsox said:

Because it sounds like complaining. Yeah, information is available to everyone. So what? Draft better and make better pickups. To say there is no skill in fantasy football is silly. Why am I in the playoffs year after year and other people in my league never make it? That's not all luck.

Complaining? FWIW, why are these defacto rhetorical lines always brought out when so many of us play in so many leagues? So winning and losing will happen to a lot of us every week. I'm not really upset, I wan $1750 in daily this week. I did not see any posts saying "this dude must of won big in his dailies this week." Why? Because it really has not point to the topic. So, are you going to congrats me on my winnings?

also, where did I say it takes no skill. You are clearly reading what you want, not what I typed or said.

14 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

Ah, well I think most of the things you are complaining about are only amplified by playing daily. At least in my experience. 

I haven't quit in season play cold-turkey but I prefer "start-em-once" survivor during the season now. To each their own.

I am not "complaining" I am having a discussion about technology, and I guess I am comaining about ESPN alerts telling everyone who they should pick up, but thats minor to the major topic. Discussion happen typically because of differences of views.  I won in daily and won in 5 of my 7 leagues. This is not about winning, its about competitive balance because of technology. I say mostly daily because I submit 10 lineups a week roughly.

Edited by Mavis
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17 minutes ago, ponchsox said:

Sounds like OP lost this week

What would that have to do with anything in the OP?

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6 minutes ago, Weebs210 said:

If you don't enjoy it you should quit. I enjoy it and still find success. The skill to fantasy is making the playoffs. The rest is luck.

I agree, people wont play if its not fun I thought...but some just try to win money.

In my work league, guy played just because his reasoning "How hard could it be." lol

So maybe in general I agree, but not always.

Its all luck, luck isnt a factor in the first pick losing Johnson for a year? Thats all luck, not one bit of skill involved in that and the playoffs are not here...its only week 1.

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1 minute ago, Mavis said:

I am not "complaining" I am having a discussion. Discussion happen typically because of differences of views.  I won in daily and won in 5 of my 7 leagues. This is not about winning, its about competitive balance because of technology. I say mostly daily because I submit 10 lineups a week roughly.

You are right. I clumsily typed "complaining" but in reality I just meant "discussing".

Another great part of playing in draftmaster formats is that they are available in the spring and early summer before all these FF "crutches" are available to the general public. You can really tell a big difference when the major industry touts put out their tools closer to the preseason. You can get screaming deals on certain players through your own analysis in May that you simply can't get in August for instance.

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Just now, BoltBacker said:

You are right. I clumsily typed "complaining" but in reality I just meant "discussing".

Another great part of playing in draftmaster formats is that they are available in the spring and early summer before all these FF "crutches" are available to the general public. You can really tell a big difference when the major industry touts put out their tools closer to the preseason. You can get screaming deals on certain players through your own analysis in May that you simply can't get in August for instance.

Draft and goes are great, depending on how early you do it. You draft in April, thats even worse as you have very little clue where players are going in drafts and so on.

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FF is 99.9% gambling/luck now.  Hope your crystal ball is better than the rest.

Not that it wasn't before.  You just don't/can't have the advantage of information anymore.

Edited by matuski

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2 minutes ago, Mavis said:

I agree, people wont play if its not fun I thought...but some just try to win money.

In my work league, guy played just because his reasoning "How hard could it be." lol

So maybe in general I agree, but not always.

Its all luck, luck isnt a factor in the first pick losing Johnson for a year? Thats all luck, not one bit of skill involved in that and the playoffs are not here...its only week 1.

You can easily make the playoffs if your first 2 picks bust. 

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Just now, Mavis said:

Its all luck, luck isnt a factor in the first pick losing Johnson for a year? Thats all luck, not one bit of skill involved in that and the playoffs are not here...its only week 1.

I strongly disagree with this..... but then again I try to play in deeper leagues than the average cookie cutter league because of situations like David Johnson. 

This is one area where I feel FF does mirror the NFL. You have to build depth and contingencies into your FF team. If your team can be completely derailed by a single injurty then you are doing it wrong. If a big injury makes it so you are less likely to make the playoffs..... well that's just like in the NFL and also part of the fun. Team building is a big part of the strategy of FF imo.

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Just now, Weebs210 said:

You can easily make the playoffs if your first 2 picks bust. 

Easily, eh? So this isnt about a discussion of technology anymore its about who has skill? I win in all my leagues, and out of all of them I miss the playoffs maybe one league every 3 years.  I'm champs in many of them currently and I rake in enough cash in dailies a year to quit my job.

But that is not the question, has technology and it leveling the info playing field made it less fun for you. Thats what I was getting at. Seems the fun was the research for some, not me, I still love it...but I have discussions with people and this topic came up so I wanted to discuss it here. 

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5 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

I strongly disagree with this..... but then again I try to play in deeper leagues than the average cookie cutter league because of situations like David Johnson. 

This is one area where I feel FF does mirror the NFL. You have to build depth and contingencies into your FF team. If your team can be completely derailed by a single injurty then you are doing it wrong. If a big injury makes it so you are less likely to make the playoffs..... well that's just like in the NFL and also part of the fun. Team building is a big part of the strategy of FF imo.

I should correct my phrasing I meant to say its almost all luck as there is skill involved, that was my phrasing wrong there. I'm trying to discuss technology, not the luck of the game however and because of some posts responding its getting lost.  Depth has nothing to do with luck of your first pick getting hurt for the year, skill can over come maybe, but luck cost him at no fault of your own. Depth wins championships is something I have lived by. But in the end, your skill is based off luck of that player too staying healthy. Why the line of skill and luck becomes murky.

I guess the saying should go, "If you have luck, your skill can show."

Edited by Mavis

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If you play daily then you understand that every single player gets to see a rank ordered list of players wuth prices next to their names, a link to any injury or suspension news, matchup information and more 

If you're doing well at it, you probably also understand that ownership and upside are really important in tournaments while consistency and really understanding pricing are important in daily.  Your edge might be in knowing that Antonio brown and cj Anderson is a better start to a lineup than Melvin Gordon and desean Jackson, even though their prices are similar, but that the second pairing might be better in tournament play. You know you probably shouldn't click the button to enter this tournament lineup into more tournaments when you make your milli maker lineup. 

In season long, you make different decisions and your edge comes from different skills.  

At the draft if you take a guy like Doug Martin or Elliott, you know you take a running back who can start the first few weeks for you while he's out.  But if you take mixon, you have to do the same thing, because you don't expect him to start right away.  And unlike Martin, where you can just pick up Jacquizz, you're taking mixon specifically because you don't think hill and gio are going to be good enough to start in fantasy (because if they were, mixon would be no more than a handcuff). That means you should have discounted mixon in redraft because it would cost you another draft pick at running back to shore up the slot in your roster.  But his price was driven up instead, in part because people value late season production over early season, and in part because people in keeper leagues push the adp needle in redraft adp.

You can also get your edge through roster construction.  The zero rb guys were absolutely right about loading up at the position and gambling on late round handcuffs because rbs invariably get injured.  Late round receivers can blow up too, but those late round backs are an injury away from fantasy relevance, so by taking a strong, deep group of receivers at the start of the draft they earned an edge.  Even when that became the norm, you could still get an edge by understanding the concepts better or by choosing a backup who has a clearer role if the starter goes down while the guy next to you drafts Dion Lewis, sees Gillislee go down, and still has no idea if he can start the backup.  

It sounds like you're bemoaning the fact you can't just watch a football game and say hey that kareem hunt guy looks good ill take him, and have your whole league miss out because they don't watch chiefs games.  That's true.  But the things you see watching actual games and understanding how the game is played can still give you an edge.  As an example, who do you think is the best waiver pick this week, Cohen, kerwynn or Carson? Kerwynn might have the job to himself, but he sucks and the cards are terrible.  Cohen is I  the wrong side of a time share and probably will never be a feature back, but could get a bunch of ppr points. Carson is somewhere between first and fourth  on the depth chart, but might start for a playoff team that loves to run.  Does the answer depend on your league format?  Roster construction? Ppr or not?  Or do you just take the guy the ESPN email recommends? 

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4 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

If you play daily then you understand that every single player gets to see a rank ordered list of players wuth prices next to their names, a link to any injury or suspension news, matchup information and more 

If you're doing well at it, you probably also understand that ownership and upside are really important in tournaments while consistency and really understanding pricing are important in daily.  Your edge might be in knowing that Antonio brown and cj Anderson is a better start to a lineup than Melvin Gordon and desean Jackson, even though their prices are similar, but that the second pairing might be better in tournament play. You know you probably shouldn't click the button to enter this tournament lineup into more tournaments when you make your milli maker lineup. 

In season long, you make different decisions and your edge comes from different skills.  

At the draft if you take a guy like Doug Martin or Elliott, you know you take a running back who can start the first few weeks for you while he's out.  But if you take mixon, you have to do the same thing, because you don't expect him to start right away.  And unlike Martin, where you can just pick up Jacquizz, you're taking mixon specifically because you don't think hill and gio are going to be good enough to start in fantasy (because if they were, mixon would be no more than a handcuff). That means you should have discounted mixon in redraft because it would cost you another draft pick at running back to shore up the slot in your roster.  But his price was driven up instead, in part because people value late season production over early season, and in part because people in keeper leagues push the adp needle in redraft adp.

You can also get your edge through roster construction.  The zero rb guys were absolutely right about loading up at the position and gambling on late round handcuffs because rbs invariably get injured.  Late round receivers can blow up too, but those late round backs are an injury away from fantasy relevance, so by taking a strong, deep group of receivers at the start of the draft they earned an edge.  Even when that became the norm, you could still get an edge by understanding the concepts better or by choosing a backup who has a clearer role if the starter goes down while the guy next to you drafts Dion Lewis, sees Gillislee go down, and still has no idea if he can start the backup.  

It sounds like you're bemoaning the fact you can't just watch a football game and say hey that kareem hunt guy looks good ill take him, and have your whole league miss out because they don't watch chiefs games.  That's true.  But the things you see watching actual games and understanding how the game is played can still give you an edge.  As an example, who do you think is the best waiver pick this week, Cohen, kerwynn or Carson? Kerwynn might have the job to himself, but he sucks and the cards are terrible.  Cohen is I  the wrong side of a time share and probably will never be a feature back, but could get a bunch of ppr points. Carson is somewhere between first and fourth  on the depth chart, but might start for a playoff team that loves to run.  Does the answer depend on your league format?  Roster construction? Ppr or not?  Or do you just take the guy the ESPN email recommends? 

Many points valid. I guess the complaint can be a guy I was sitting next to got the same alert to scoop up Kerwyn Williams. Not that I would in any league with a RBBC likely, just seems strange that when you get alerts it seems like no one has the info advantage anymore. I do not own DJ in the ESPN league that sent out alerts, I feel these things are important to point out since every posts or topic has an agenda with it, lol. I as a fantasy footballer just wanted to see if everyone thought the info advantage is gone. 

Edited by Mavis

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More skill needed now to beat more informed owners. For example-- if you watched closely last year-- you could see Howard taking over slowly. Same thing with D Johnson in arizona the year before.

 

Yea if CJ Anderson rips his meniscus mid game like last year-- everyone and there dog is going to claim Davantae Booker if he's available-- 

 

Sharks can still be a step ahead. 

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3 minutes ago, packer_junkie said:

More skill needed now to beat more informed owners. For example-- if you watched closely last year-- you could see Howard taking over slowly. Same thing with D Johnson in arizona the year before.

 

Yea if CJ Anderson rips his meniscus mid game like last year-- everyone and there dog is going to claim Davantae Booker if he's available-- 

 

Sharks can still be a step ahead. 

Except in your specific example, the sharks can't. They might know about Anderson's injury ten seconds after it happens but they can't do anything about it. Everyone will know about Booker by Tuesday.

It's an interesting discussion but if I were OP I would take the word "fairness" out of the title. As I tell my kids all the time, fair and equal are two words often used interchangeably that don't have the same meaning. 

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Thats what Im saying habsfan-- yes, everyone is going to know about Booker by tuesday. But the shark already saw Howard taking over in chicago two or three weeks before it was official.

 

Which owner had more success last year? The guy who picked up Howard early or the guy who lucked into Booker cause of FA$$ or waiver order.

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I understand what Mavis is talking about. It used to be that people would draft injured players and so on just because they didn't know any better. Information was not as readily available and took longer to reach the general public. Owners paying more attention would have an advantage because of that, which likely doesn't happen nearly as much anymore because of so many media services focusing on making this type of information available.

You still have to be discerning however and that is where a fantasy owner still separates themselves from the rest of the competition.

Sure a alert points out that Johnson is injured and to consider Kerwyn Williams as the back up. But is Williams clearly the best option? What about Ellington who actually played more than Williams?

Having some information and services advising you what to do may make it easier for owners, but it does not necessarily make them right. There is still an advantage to be had from knowing more about these players and this team in making these types of decisions.

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44 minutes ago, BoltBacker said:

This is why I shifted heavily toward draft-and-go (also called "draftmaster) format. I'm not talking all MFL 10's either, there were some great options the "Looking for Leagues" forum this year for some really interesting deep formats that reward well thought out team decisions. It doesn't eliminate luck altogether but makes it less of a factor imo

Huge difference in how I enjoy the season, Mavis. Hope you give them a try next year. It's also a good option for people that are starting to feel burnt out on the hobby in general. For the most part I just sit back and enjoy football at this time of the year and only occasionally check in to see the standings how my draftmaster leagues are doing. That "scouting" feeling you miss is definitely present as I think about what sleepers I'll be drafting next spring/summer if their situation gets better than it is now.

 

25 minutes ago, matuski said:

FF is 99.9% gambling/luck now.  Hope your crystal ball is better than the rest.

Not that it wasn't before.  You just don't/can't have the advantage of information anymore.

it's all gambling.  Even in the actual NFL the games include a lot of luck. and those are the guys actually "controlling" things. 

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7 minutes ago, habsfan said:

Except in your specific example, the sharks can't. They might know about Anderson's injury ten seconds after it happens but they can't do anything about it. Everyone will know about Booker by Tuesday.

It's an interesting discussion but if I were OP I would take the word "fairness" out of the title. As I tell my kids all the time, fair and equal are two words often used interchangeably that don't have the same meaning. 

That is my basic point, yes...as far as equality and fairness, your parsing words that are really the same thing, but see your point none the less regardless of how little the difference. I will leave the title as is though as its not that big of a deal tot he point persay. 

e·qual·i·ty - the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, and opportunities.

fair·ness - impartial and just treatment or behavior without favoritism or discrimination.

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Q: Do devy leagues enhance the value of skill / time commitment?  I'd think they would, assuming your time is also spent watching college.  

 

A couple co-workers play in a college FF league.  I haven't jumped into that yet largely because of the number of small schools and IMO the disparity in competition.  It would take time to forecast Diocemy Saint Juste to be the "best" RB before the season, or to know which offenses will light up the MAC or Mountain West.  But it seems the luck factor would decrease somewhat. 

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2 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

It's all gambling.  Even in the actual NFL the games include a lot of luck. and those are the guys actually "controlling" things. 

Agree here, how a bounce of a ball, or a penalty to back your kicker out of field goal range is skill and not luck. Its all part of the game that is based off luck you cant control.

Do those have no skill because Gronk didnt do anything this past Thursday? The skill exists in roster management and seeing things before the news breaks, once news hits, your skill no longer matters in some ways, not all. all depends on who has the highest waiver wire claim after that. 

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2 minutes ago, Mavis said:

That is my basic point, yes...as far as equality and fairness, your parsing words that are really the same thing, but see your point none the less regardless of how little the difference. I will leave the title as is though as its not that big of a deal tot he point persay. 

e·qual·i·ty - the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, and opportunities.

fair·ness - impartial and just treatment or behavior without favoritism or discrimination.

I'm a bit confused then. Do you see equal access to information as fair or unfair? I got the impression you thought it was unfair to the devoted fantasy player?

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7 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

 

 

it's all gambling.  Even in the actual NFL the games include a lot of luck. and those are the guys actually "controlling" things. 

You have some information that is reliable.  We can predict who starts, who is likely to get the most targets, etc.

That is the .1% I can credit to not being luck. 

It wasn't lucky to predict Antonio Brown would lead the Steelers in receiving this week.  It was luck to the extent he did so.  It was luck he did not get hurt, etc.

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1 minute ago, matuski said:
11 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

it's all gambling.  Even in the actual NFL the games include a lot of luck. and those are the guys actually "controlling" things. 

You have some information that is reliable.  We can predict who starts, who is likely to get the most targets, etc.

That is the .1% I can credit to not being luck. 

It wasn't lucky to predict Antonio Brown would lead the Steelers in receiving this week.  It was luck to the extent he did so.  It was luck he did not get hurt, etc.

sure.  but it's still all gambling.  I get what you're saying, I was just parsing words to your comment "FF is 99.9% gambling/luck now".  

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the secret to sucess is overdrafting rbs in the mid rounds and then trading one for a top talent wr later in the year.  I shipped gordon out for odell last year.  Guy was desperate for an rb

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Contract style dynasty leagues with a 'monetary' bid system for acquiring players avoid most of this problem.  You just need committed owners who are willing to take a few seasons to fix a team after they have made some bad moves.

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This year i took doug martin in the mid rounds and im looking to ship him for a 1st round wr at some point. 

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9 minutes ago, habsfan said:

I'm a bit confused then. Do you see equal access to information as fair or unfair? I got the impression you thought it was unfair to the devoted fantasy player?

Fair? Sure its fair to have every having the same info, it makes it equal now, (see what i did there, lol) which eliminated having the info longer before anyone else. Thats why the titles isnt with a question mark, more just a headline. 

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I just feel like it takes more effort.  Just because technology makes info more available to everyone doesn't mean that it's the correct info every time.  It's still each person's job to study that data and know what to do with it.  All the experts that give us information are not always right.  I think it's more important than ever to do your own research and develop your own opinions on players while everyone else is relying on "experts."  This is what can separate you from the average guy.

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12 minutes ago, Mavis said:

Fair? Sure its fair to have every having the same info, it makes it equal now, (see what i did there, lol) which eliminated having the info longer before anyone else. Thats why the titles isnt with a question mark, more just a headline. 

so basically you don't like that it's more equal for those who don't have or want to put the time in on a Sunday afternoon.  

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Just play IDP.  That info isn't being spoonfed to you and if you don't know what you're doing you'll get your ### handed to you.

Edited by Hankmoody
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There sure is a lot of fluff out there    

 

Sure, everyone is going to know the backup after and injury, but the informed owner already has his players backed up.   

 

Depth wins, I'm constantly trying to improve the bottom of my bench.... something most/some owners neglect 

 

 

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The worst is when you're all ready to make a "sneaky" free agent add, then you log on to your league homepage and see that player under "THIS WEEK'S FREE AGENTS TOO ADD".

Us nerds definitely had a bigger advantage when everyone didn't receive every piece of news instantly.

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The worst part about the information surplus is that it takes away the surprise of breakout players.  I used to enjoy seeing a guy come out of nowhere to blow up then racing to the waiver wire to try and get him.  

Look no further than the "Predict the week 1 waiver darling" thread to see how boring it has become.  Most people knew exactly who had the best chance to break out before they actually did.  That takes some of the fun out of it for me.  Outside of that one element, I like having all the leg work done for me.  I've got less than two hours a week to dedicate to this hobby.  I need all the assistance I can get.

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I think the OP is spot on, but I have found in the past that people get riled up the moment "skill" is discussed. I think to be most useful the discussion has to differentiate between "skill" and "effort". Where "effort" is generally talking about acquiring information.

In the early days of fantasy, both skill and effort let you differentiate yourself. Information was not as readily available. You could get a big leg up on the competition by taking the effort to know a host of different topics. Things like who was injured, the impact and rehab time of those injuries, the team's depth chart, coaching tendencies, spotting players with ability before they became starters, etc. Many of those, just knowing the info had a big impact without really needing an element of skill. Some others also included a little need for skill. Knowing a starter suffered a serious injury and who the backup was doesn't require much skill. But gauging how well the backup would do in that situation, did. 

There was also plenty of room for skill to differentiate yourself too. The early days of FF few people understood how to determine the value of players. People learned to draft by rules of thumb like the stud RB theory, and lacked the skill to find out whether their draft spot and situation put them in a position they were one of the teams for whom it wouldn't work. There are also things that need some skill like determining league tendencies, determining trade value of players and picks, etc. They also require effort, but I'd put them more in the skill bucket because it's easy for some to put in the effort and get a poor result because of how they went about it.

 

The amount of differentiation you can get from effort is greatly diminished in today's FF for the reasons the OP says. Also league rule evolution has probably increased this. 24/7 first come first serve waivers were common when I started FF, but they are probably rare today. Being the guy who put in the effort to watch all the games and scour the internet constantly for breaking injuries or benchings has lost that part of the payoff. Which had been a huge advantage. And not saying that's a bad thing, but it's something that adds to how things have changed.

I also think in the old days that effort trumped skill by a bit. As rules and availability of info changed, that changed too. Now most people are working off of the same information, and at least have a similar set of conclusions available to draw from. Skill can still differentiate things, but even that has eroded because of what is available. Tools that will determine value are everywhere.  Even if it's just drawing from public consensus.  The site I last used, when you want to draft a player you could have it sort them by their ADP!   As a commish who had to submit picks in slow online for a number of owners, I know several of my owners were just picking the highest ranked player. And their performance in the leagues improved.

I do think a more skilled owner will win more than he loses in an average league full of average FF players. But the proliferation of information and also skill-derived information, has definitely narrowed the gap.

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