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joey

== OFFICIAL OAKLAND RAIDERS 2018 thread ==

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33 minutes ago, joey said:

just heard on 95.7 The Game that Penn is being investigated for domestic violence.

This happened last night, so it's not like the Raiders draft 2 OTs because they knew this was coming, but it is an odd coincidence.

Let's see how this all plays out...

http://www.tmz.com/2018/04/30/raiders-star-donald-penn-suspect-in-domestic-violence-incident/?adid=sidebarwidget-tmzsports

Quote

Penn and his wife, Dominique, have issued a joint statement through their rep, Denise White, saying:

"There was a verbal disagreement, there was NO physical altercation. The two are in the middle of a divorce and it is a hard time for both parties."

No physical altercation, thank goodness, although the initial claim was that Penn "slapped her butt" which led to the verbal altercation, at which point he poured a drink on her head and then left. I doubt much comes from this, but it's hard to say exactly.

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Interesting that Penn thing happened, as I was gonna post about OL.  

The team has added a bunch of linemen that we haven't seen much of.  You have to go back to Gabe Jackson to see a lineman that hit.  Anthony Morris, John Feliciano, Vadal Alexander, Jylan Ware, David Sharpe, Brandon Parker, Kolton Miller.  We need to get our two starting tackles from this group.  If we do, great, if we are cruising free agency for a starting tackle next year, that's not cool.  

 

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6 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

http://www.tmz.com/2018/04/30/raiders-star-donald-penn-suspect-in-domestic-violence-incident/?adid=sidebarwidget-tmzsports

No physical altercation, thank goodness, although the initial claim was that Penn "slapped her butt" which led to the verbal altercation, at which point he poured a drink on her head and then left. .

Sounds like a Friday night in Vegas to me.  

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On 4/26/2018 at 11:41 PM, DA RAIDERS said:

bryant is a dangerous guy for the locker room. I don't see him responding well to grudens rah rah attitude. 

 

We'll see. 

Gruden is only a rah rah guy for the camera, on the field he had a rep for being a major hard ###.

On 4/27/2018 at 6:08 PM, BustedKnuckles said:

Wow, it's mostly tape against low level talent but I love how quick this kid is. His ability to suddenly change direction and accelerate looks amazing.  Hope it translates to the next level.

On 4/27/2018 at 11:15 PM, Charlie Harper said:

High risk, high reward. If you're gonna pay a coach $100 million better let him get to work and earn that money.

I don't watch college football, but I do like that we've drafted OT (which is a premium position) and pass rushers. 

People have been hating on Cable, but was he really that bad in SEA? I know last year was a mess (but SEA didn't spend money on the line) , but to my knowledge he did decently prior to that. Cable has a good rep as an OLINE coach....so giving him these elite athletes sounds good to me.

Yeah, I agree about Cable.  Seattle gave him next to nothing to work with for the past few years and he still managed to cobble together a passable line...before last season.

The Raiders are giving him a ton of talent to work with so I understand the optimism.

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Echoing some sentiments others have expressed -- while I think we had a solid if not spectacular draft, what is worrisome to me is how much better, on the face of it, the Broncos and Chargers did. We were already in a competitive division, and I feel that other teams got stronger than us through FA and draft.

Adding Chubb was a no-brainer for the Broncs there, and will absolutely help keep their D unit filthy and dominant. They also upgraded their WR corps with the impressive Courland Sutton and slot specialist DaeSean Hamilton. Then landing an upside guy like Royce Freeman (with depth in David Williams) also will help shore up the RB turnstile Denver has been for the last few years. Yiadom and Jewell also look serviceable and startable in the backfield and midfield. Their ability and window to vie for division champs has not abated whatsoever.

The Chargers also had an above average draft, and them snagging Derwin James honestly hurts. Uchenna Nwosu certainly helps their pass rush, and while it seems to me that run-stopping is more of a concern for the Bolts, Nwosu has versatility in being able to move all around the front and contribute, create mismatches, and a little havoc. Only saving grace is that they still need a good OT as they have solid talent in Pouncey and went after another center in Scott Quessenberry. But with their FA acquisitions and adding quality talent in the draft, I think the Chargers are going to surprise this year in the division.

The Chiefs did what we were supposed to do and went all in on D (except for Reggie's son, the only offensive player they drafted), and for not having a R1 pick, did well to fill some holes. Derrick Nnadi provides the big body interior lineman they needed both overall, and to help make their 4-2 Dime package actually work against 3 WR sets. They didn't get a blue-chipper in S/CB but got a fairly serviceable guys in Armani Watts and Tremon Smith. 

Best case scenario for us is that Penn stays healthy and Miller steps up and delivers in his transition to the NFL, providing the safety for Carr against guys like Houston, Bosa, Vonn MIller and Chubb, all of whom we'll see twice. And that PJ Hall develops into a dependable 3Tech DT who can battle the double-teams that will occur in Gunther's 2-deep zone. Because that 2-deep zone takes some pressure off linebackers (and to a degree corners) I can see why Reggie & Gruden weren't as focused on LB as I believe we should have been. We really only have Irvin and Bowman (if he signs) so if the front can generate consistent pressure and our defensive backfield (Joseph, Obi, Conley) plays up to what we think they can achieve based on talent, eschewing LB in this draft may not be disastrous. 

 

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I've made it known in prior years drafts my love for Aaron Donald and Grady Jarrett. I cannot believe the Raiders may have gotten both of those guys in this draft.

https://youtu.be/6cyvZh5DYJQ

God bless Mo Hurst's heart. This draft could be absolutely epic if the two 3tech's and Key all hit. Monday night week one versus the Rams is gonna be a DT showcase. Looking for the twin rooks hold their own!

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5 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

I've made it known in prior years drafts my love for Aaron Donald and Grady Jarrett. I cannot believe the Raiders may have gotten both of those guys in this draft.

https://youtu.be/6cyvZh5DYJQ

God bless Mo Hurst's heart. This draft could be absolutely epic if the two 3tech's and Key all hit. Monday night week one versus the Rams is gonna be a DT showcase. Looking for the twin rooks hold their own!

Fans devastated by taking Miller in the first should be equally as excited about the pass rush potential of Hall, Hurst, and Key.

We've needed that 3 tech pass rusher FOREVER, and we have two possibilities.  Very nice.  

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27 minutes ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

Echoing some sentiments others have expressed -- while I think we had a solid if not spectacular draft, what is worrisome to me is how much better, on the face of it, the Broncos and Chargers did. We were already in a competitive division, and I feel that other teams got stronger than us through FA and draft.

Broncos passed on Rosen and Chargers passed on Lamar.  I was more worried about that.  

 

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Chubb, James and Hurst all apper to be among the top instant impact defenders in this draft. Somehow, by the grace, we got one too.

I don't know how it happened, but this draft went from total buzz kill to one of my favorites in all my years a Raider fan. Key, Hall and Hurst are all Al picks. Young Al picks. Gruden did some crazy magic this weekend. Look at this list of potential impact guys added at not only team needs, but premium NFL positions:

3tech: Hurst, Hall

OT: Miller, Parker

Edge: Key

WR: Bryant, Switzer, Ateman

Nickel: Nelson

Plus a new punter who Reggie implied was their primary target - not the guy GB swooped in to take a pick before. And they signed the nation's top kicker last year in UDFA, who amazingly played at the same school as the new punter!

Even the late round MLB could make some noise, given the dearth of established talent there outside of Bowman.

I still question the OT selections, but really like all the other players added! I'll let my too tall OT bias go, and trust Gruden & Co. there, especially with how sweet the rest of this list looks. They had a plan to get their guys and it seems they got most of them. He was Trader Jon this year. Never seen anything like that from the Raiders. Love it.

 

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3 hours ago, Chaka said:

Gruden is only a rah rah guy for the camera, on the field he had a rep for being a major hard ###.

 

same problem.  bryant appears too cool for school.  talented, arrogant.  i worry that gruden's old school approach will fall flat on guys like him.  we'll see.

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29 minutes ago, DA RAIDERS said:

same problem.  bryant appears too cool for school.  talented, arrogant.  i worry that gruden's old school approach will fall flat on guys like him.  we'll see.

I get it but I think Bryant is going to come in and ball from the jump.  He's playing for his first real contract, I might be hesitant to give him that contract even if he earns it this year.  But for this season I think he's going to bust his hump to earn it.

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5 hours ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

Interesting draft. While I will always wonder how this would have shaken out if we went consensus BPA at areas of need in the first and second (we missed out on Fitzpatrick by trading back with the Cards @10, then missed out on Edmunds and James at #15) -- and I do wish we went that way still -- I can understand Reggie & Chuckie's philosophy of shoring up the offensive line to protect Carr and get an athletic versatile tackle who will compete and can fill in for a starting position immediately.

It's not the sexy pick, nor the pick I thought we should make given the questions I have about Miller's pedigree (we need him a player to handle some of the most dominant EDGE defenders in the NFL this year, and not sure Miller has shown this is a question-free talent of his, would have liked a blue chipper instead of a small school prospect who was seen as 2nd round talent by many) , but I get why and hope Miller transitions seamlessly to add value to our line right away.

As a potential 3T inside rusher, PJ Hall looks like he might fit well in Guenther's two-deep zone D and can help with that interior pressure we've been lacking from other players outside of Mack.To me, Hall brings the athleticism for this role more than others on th eroster, so again while not a sexy pick, hopefully Hall can add value immediately.

Brandon Parker was a bit of a headscratcher if only because of needing to trade up just 3 picks to get him (feel he would likely have been there for us anyway, was projected anywhere in rounds 3-5), and at this point in the draft it was clear to me that the Raiders brass didn't agree with me or consensus that ILB and DB were glaring needs, and went with another OT. Another small school guy, at least Parker brings beef at 6-7 310, and assuming he can contribute, at least I like that our O-line seems to have talent and depth we did not have the last few years. Will be interesting to watch camp competition here.

I like the Key pick. Again, I think we should have gone Edmunds in the first and used our 3rd round pick for value at OT, but I think this will turn out to be a steal, and a true Reggie special -- taking advantage of discount to get a guy who has first round talent in the 3rd. Long, wiry, athletic tackle machine is the kind of player we need, and his "character issues" to me are not dire -- the guy checked into to rehab voluntarily, been clear for a year+, it's a bit of weed smoking, not a BFD to me anyway, and I think the concerns are a little overplayed -- or at least overshadowed by what he can add to our D if we help his focus. 

Again would have loved to get a CB earlier, but Nick Nelson is another value pick for us given that his stock slid because of the worry of his meniuscus, which wasn't a full tear and only required 6 weeks of correction and rehab. Should compete to start, and brings some flexibility given his ability to play safety, CB, nickel, etc. Looking for one guy aside from Melvin to step up from the nondescript generic bunch we have, and Nelson could help distinguish himself and earn a spot to help us in an area of need right away.

Mo Hurst is our best pick of the draft, bar none. Huge value here, and while health will be a concern, seems like he has the issue under control, well-evaluated, and he's ready. Huge, huge value and he's the right guy at the right position of need. Love this pick.

I am never a huge fan of drafting punters but it's the Raiders thing, and Townsend is a special talent at a position we need. Solid directional guy who will do his job and not make himself a Social Media diva, unlike others.

Don't have a feeling about Azeem Victor, seems like purely depth as I don't see anything that makes him special. Maybe contribute to ST as well as OLB depth.

Not sure why we went with Ateman when we seem to have a solid core of 3 WRs -- not sure we needed to build depth here as opposed to other positions, but given his prospect gradings, and his measurables that will make him a good RZ target, may have been BPA at that point on the Raiders board. 

 

 

 

Nice write up Stompin'.

On Azeem Victor I see why they took a chance on him in the 6th round. He kind of reminds me of Burfict in some ways. A player that probably would of went much higher if it weren't for red flags. Entering the 2017 college season Victor was actually considered a possible 1st or 2nd round pick by some but after his troubles he obviously fell in the draft a lot. Victor has potential and I like the risk there in the 6th round. If we get the 2016 Victor we may have gotten a steal in the 6th round. Time will tell.

From what I can tell most People had Ateman rated anywhere from the 3rd to 6th round so I like that pick in the 7th round. If that pick alone gets Roberts away from the Raiders it was well worth it IMO.

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7 hours ago, DocHolliday said:

He has not shown much.  I am hoping that just bringing in a slot WR is at least a first step 

Even if he doesn't pan out- we got him for a guy that we could have almost certainly cut this year anyways 

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4 hours ago, Moonshine said:

http://www.tmz.com/2018/04/30/raiders-star-donald-penn-suspect-in-domestic-violence-incident/?adid=sidebarwidget-tmzsports

No physical altercation, thank goodness, although the initial claim was that Penn "slapped her butt" which led to the verbal altercation, at which point he poured a drink on her head and then left. I doubt much comes from this, but it's hard to say exactly.

Man, if you can't slap your x-wife's tush... whose can you slap?!

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3 hours ago, massraider said:

Broncos passed on Rosen and Chargers passed on Lamar.  I was more worried about that.  

 

I was, and I guess I still am, disappointed in the draft.  The D has not been good for a long time and needs some players.  Good thing we lucked into Hurst because this draft would have been a disaster had we not.  

A glimmer of hope came from my brother yesterday however who happens to be an Eagles fan.  He thinks defense matters little these days and that teams must focus on O first.  That goes against everything an old-school guy like me thinks.  He used the SB as an example.  The Philly D was good but couldn't slow down NE and Philly only won because they could score points.   

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13 minutes ago, krsone21 said:

Nice write up Stompin'.

On Azeem Victor I see why they took a chance on him in the 6th round. He kind of reminds me of Burfict in some ways. A player that probably would of went much higher if it weren't for red flags. Entering the 2017 college season Victor was actually considered a possible 1st or 2nd round pick by some but after his troubles he obviously fell in the draft a lot. Victor has potential and I like the risk there in the 6th round. If we get the 2016 Victor we may have gotten a steal in the 6th round. Time will tell.

From what I can tell most People had Ateman rated anywhere from the 3rd to 6th round so I like that pick in the 7th round. If that pick alone gets Roberts away from the Raiders it was well worth it IMO.

Good observation -- in fact, I think I've seen the comparisons between Victor and Burfict in a few pre-draft write-ups before we ever knew he might be connected with Guenther and the Raiders. To me, this brings good and bad, good in that he has the same physical aggressive style, bad in that he has tangible downside in measurables work ethic. Showing up overweight in 2017 and getting benched, the increasing number of incidnets (DUI, etc.) rather than doing it early in his career and showing he can right the ship (and as a result making me fell better about the discount we got him at).

I'd like to think he adds value at a position of need but if I were to guess, there are just too many downsides for me to hope Victor can be anything but competition depth at camp at this point. Anything more would be simply amazing, but not banking that we got a steal here. Time will tell, and will hope our crew motivates and brings out his best. We sure could use someone at that spot. 

9 minutes ago, Chadstroma said:

Man, if you can't slap your x-wife's tush... whose can you slap?!

No one's. You should simply not slap any tush whatsoever. Not even your own. Hell, I'm not sure playing ZZ Top's "Tush" is kosher anymore either, unfortunately, despite the sick guitar licks. 

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PFT's Mike Florio reports Redskins president Bruce Allen "hopes to return" to the Raiders.

Bleacher Report's Mike Freeman confirms the report, adding that the feeling is mutual. Per Florio, Allen would return to the Raiders in an executive-type role with no personnel decision-making, but a "significant role in managing the business." Allen is currently believed to be running the show with the Redskins alongside senior VP of player personnel Doug Williams. Allen leaving the Redskins could be viewed as a win for Washington. Allen and coach Jon Gruden have a relationship dating back to their previous Raiders days and again with the Bucs.

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1 hour ago, BustedKnuckles said:

PFT's Mike Florio reports Redskins president Bruce Allen "hopes to return" to the Raiders.

Bleacher Report's Mike Freeman confirms the report, adding that the feeling is mutual. Per Florio, Allen would return to the Raiders in an executive-type role with no personnel decision-making, but a "significant role in managing the business." Allen is currently believed to be running the show with the Redskins alongside senior VP of player personnel Doug Williams. Allen leaving the Redskins could be viewed as a win for Washington. Allen and coach Jon Gruden have a relationship dating back to their previous Raiders days and again with the Bucs.

It is said that Gruden would be bringing in some new people for the front office. Still all reports are that Chucky and Reggie are working well together. It is not suppose to be a cleaning house or power struggle.

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5 hours ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

 

No one's. You should simply not slap any tush whatsoever. Not even your own. Hell, I'm not sure playing ZZ Top's "Tush" is kosher anymore either, unfortunately, despite the sick guitar licks. 

:rant:

Edited by Chadstroma

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7 hours ago, DocHolliday said:

I was, and I guess I still am, disappointed in the draft.  The D has not been good for a long time and needs some players.  Good thing we lucked into Hurst because this draft would have been a disaster had we not.  

 

The defense showed a lot of improvement last year after Pagano took over as DC. Norton’s scheme were too complicated. I don’t think Gunther will make that mistake.

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Watched some film on Parker. He has light feet and moves well for a big man. Very capable pass blocker. Uses his hands well and kerps square. Parker doesn’t appear to have much explosion in his first step so he may need some work on his run blocking. He seemed ti have held his own in the Senior bowl vs competition from bugger schools.

Link 1

North Carolina A&T’s Parker, a 6-foot-7 offensive tackle, came face to face with an assortment of edge marauders this week, talent he didn’t see often, or at all, in the Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference (MEAC). He had to deal with the speed of Central Florida outside linebacker Shaquem Griffin, the one-handed quarterback-wrecker, and combat Texas-San Antonio’s Marcus Davenport, a 6-foot-7, 255-pound defensive end projected as a first-round pick.

“I live up to those challenges,” Parker said. “It’s nothing short of exciting.”

The duel with Davenport, which Parker won two out of three times in one drill Wednesday, was illuminating. They are both 6-foot-7, but Parker used leverage to stymie Davenport’s bull rush on one play. Parker outweighed Davenport by 50 pounds, but he got lower than Davenport and up under his chin and stood him up. It was quite impressive.

Link 2

The FCS player that NFL scouts have been raving about the most is Brandon Parker. Although Parker hasn’t had the best week of practice, you can see the potential he has. Parker was a road grater all season long for the Aggies, helping lead this team to an undefeated record and an HBCU national championship.

He is 6’7, 303 lbs with quick feet and great strength. He toyed with defensive ends in the MEAC throughout the year, but this has been a big step up in competition for him. However, with a solid performance, there is talk that he could be a first-round pick in the NFL Draft.

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Anybody else concerned that Key took Aldon's number and will wear 99?   No... ok... me either.  :whistle:

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34 minutes ago, kaso said:

Anybody else concerned that Key took Aldon's number and will wear 99?   No... ok... me either.  :whistle:

I'm happy he didn't choose #420.

 

HEY-OH!!

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10 hours ago, 32 Counter Pass said:

The defense showed a lot of improvement last year after Pagano took over as DC. Norton’s scheme were too complicated. I don’t think Gunther will make that mistake.

I agree. There was a marked improvement on D with the change in coaching. We have had some players that have not developed.... or maybe they were not good scheme fits? I have maintained that there is a decent amount of talent there that just has not been used properly the few years under Norton. I think the coaching change and big difference in D play is strong proof that our not good D was more about the coaching than the players. Did we need more players? Absolutely. But I just don't think we are as far off as some think. I could be wrong but that it is my view. 

There is a lot we don't know about our D. What do we know? Mack is a super-elite player. Irvin is good but needs to be used properly. Joseph looked to be a solid S. Now we brought in a bunch of new players and have a bunch of players that we hope start to live up to what expectations were. 

Again, I think we will have a nice surprise in the level the D players this year. 

 

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We are also adding a 1st rounder and 2nd rounder in Conley and Obi to the team.  

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15 hours ago, BustedKnuckles said:

PFT's Mike Florio reports Redskins president Bruce Allen "hopes to return" to the Raiders.

Bleacher Report's Mike Freeman confirms the report, adding that the feeling is mutual. Per Florio, Allen would return to the Raiders in an executive-type role with no personnel decision-making, but a "significant role in managing the business." Allen is currently believed to be running the show with the Redskins alongside senior VP of player personnel Doug Williams. Allen leaving the Redskins could be viewed as a win for Washington. Allen and coach Jon Gruden have a relationship dating back to their previous Raiders days and again with the Bucs.

I really hope not.

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19 minutes ago, Chaka said:

I really hope not.

I'm not an Allen hater, but one of the things I always think about with caution is the degree to which in the NFL people surround themselves with "their guys," trading off familiarity against the potential expense of getting a more objectively better option or more diverse opinions (i.e. not surrounding yourself with yes-men). 

I totally trust Gruden's vision for the team, and him getting the coaching staff that will help best implement that vision. That said, I see rumors like this Allen one and think that while he was with the Raiders during the run up to our AFC Championship year, not sure how much is really attributed to specific things Allen did.

He then simply followed Gruden to TB where the team's performance was highly variable (won division twice mixed with years with 5 and 9 wins), and the Skins haven't won a playoff game in nine years while Allen has been there. So is he really "the" guy or just "a" guy that Gruden likes based on familiarity and not discernable talent.

Had similar thoughts on Cable - the guy has some degree of track record with establishing sound running games, but I'm not confident why he is head and shoulders above other options that might be out there, options that may not have completely stunk up the joint when they were given wider responsibilities (Cable went 17-27 as our interim head coach so while that looked good objectively against Kiffin's achievements, still not anything to stand up and cheer for).

I just worry when any coach revamps a team by bringing in his guys as opposed to focusing on the right guys -- and this rumor with Allen strikes me as the former, not the latter.

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38 minutes ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

I'm not an Allen hater, but one of the things I always think about with caution is the degree to which in the NFL people surround themselves with "their guys," trading off familiarity against the potential expense of getting a more objectively better option or more diverse opinions (i.e. not surrounding yourself with yes-men). 

I totally trust Gruden's vision for the team, and him getting the coaching staff that will help best implement that vision. That said, I see rumors like this Allen one and think that while he was with the Raiders during the run up to our AFC Championship year, not sure how much is really attributed to specific things Allen did.

He then simply followed Gruden to TB where the team's performance was highly variable (won division twice mixed with years with 5 and 9 wins), and the Skins haven't won a playoff game in nine years while Allen has been there. So is he really "the" guy or just "a" guy that Gruden likes based on familiarity and not discernable talent.

Had similar thoughts on Cable - the guy has some degree of track record with establishing sound running games, but I'm not confident why he is head and shoulders above other options that might be out there, options that may not have completely stunk up the joint when they were given wider responsibilities (Cable went 17-27 as our interim head coach so while that looked good objectively against Kiffin's achievements, still not anything to stand up and cheer for).

I just worry when any coach revamps a team by bringing in his guys as opposed to focusing on the right guys -- and this rumor with Allen strikes me as the former, not the latter.

Well stated.  I have similar concerns re: Allen. I think he's JAG but Gruden likes him.

I feel differently re: Cable he may be a Gruden guy but he's a Gruden guy who has demonstrated that he knows how to mold a Gruden o-line.

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7th rd Vadal busted for PEDs. Strangely enough, it might actually help him make the team, as they'll have 4 weeks of flexibility with his roster spot in a crowded position group. I wonder if they knew this was coming heading into the draft. Would help make even more sense of the desire to reload OT.

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1 hour ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

I'm not an Allen hater, but one of the things I always think about with caution is the degree to which in the NFL people surround themselves with "their guys," trading off familiarity against the potential expense of getting a more objectively better option or more diverse opinions (i.e. not surrounding yourself with yes-men). 

I totally trust Gruden's vision for the team, and him getting the coaching staff that will help best implement that vision. That said, I see rumors like this Allen one and think that while he was with the Raiders during the run up to our AFC Championship year, not sure how much is really attributed to specific things Allen did.

He then simply followed Gruden to TB where the team's performance was highly variable (won division twice mixed with years with 5 and 9 wins), and the Skins haven't won a playoff game in nine years while Allen has been there. So is he really "the" guy or just "a" guy that Gruden likes based on familiarity and not discernable talent.

Had similar thoughts on Cable - the guy has some degree of track record with establishing sound running games, but I'm not confident why he is head and shoulders above other options that might be out there, options that may not have completely stunk up the joint when they were given wider responsibilities (Cable went 17-27 as our interim head coach so while that looked good objectively against Kiffin's achievements, still not anything to stand up and cheer for).

I just worry when any coach revamps a team by bringing in his guys as opposed to focusing on the right guys -- and this rumor with Allen strikes me as the former, not the latter.

agreed.  and take it a step further.  the coaches want to bring their own players from their previous gigs that they liked.  i don't like it

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Interesting, if not unsurprising to see consensus draft grades look so poor. Bottom line is all the picks are moderate-to-high risk/reward, each with significant bust potential for widely varying reasons. Gruden clearly believes he and his staff can develop/motivate. He said in a recent interview that is one of the most important aspects of being a successful coach.

I still don't understand the Hurst pick. How does a guy like this fall that far and have no immediate medical restrictions? That is set up to be the monster come-up pick for this draft. Hall and Hurst are gonna bear dance.

Key and Martavis also potentially stolen top talent, if Gruden is able to keep these guys straight. I like that Chucky's a gambler with mid-late round rookie contracts. That is exactly where you gamble on these types of guys. Martavus playing for his FA contract this year could be sick. I won't be surprised to see him end the season with more fantasy points than any other Raiders WR.

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41 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

Interesting, if not unsurprising to see consensus draft grades look so poor. Bottom line is all the picks are moderate-to-high risk/reward, each with significant bust potential for widely varying reasons. Gruden clearly believes he and his staff can develop/motivate. He said in a recent interview that is one of the most important aspects of being a successful coach.

I still don't understand the Hurst pick. How does a guy like this fall that far and have no immediate medical restrictions? That is set up to be the monster come-up pick for this draft. Hall and Hurst are gonna bear dance.

Key and Martavis also potentially stolen top talent, if Gruden is able to keep these guys straight. I like that Chucky's a gambler with mid-late round rookie contracts. That is exactly where you gamble on these types of guys. Martavus playing for his FA contract this year could be sick. I won't be surprised to see him end the season with more fantasy points than any other Raiders WR.

I don't get the hurst drop either.  I asked up thread, if there was another reason he fell.  Doesn't make sense if he's healthy. 

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26 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

Interesting, if not unsurprising to see consensus draft grades look so poor. Bottom line is all the picks are moderate-to-high risk/reward, each with significant bust potential for widely varying reasons. Gruden clearly believes he and his staff can develop/motivate. He said in a recent interview that is one of the most important aspects of being a successful coach.

I still don't understand the Hurst pick. How does a guy like this fall that far and have no immediate medical restrictions? That is set up to be the monster come-up pick for this draft. Hall and Hurst are gonna bear dance.

Key and Martavis also potentially stolen top talent, if Gruden is able to keep these guys straight. I like that Chucky's a gambler with mid-late round rookie contracts. That is exactly where you gamble on these types of guys. Martavus playing for his FA contract this year could be sick. I won't be surprised to see him end the season with more fantasy points than any other Raiders WR.

The more I think about this draft, the more I like it.

To be clear, I still think that passing on Fitzpatrick and Edmunds may come back to bite us. And anytime you pick someone other than the general consensus pick at that selection spot, you are going to wind up getting hammered in consensus draft grades. So by this alone, I can totally understand why we are getting low grades for passing on these guys.

That said, Gruden & Co. were obviously valuating offense just as much (actually likely more) than D, and I don't blame them. We have a super solid left side, but Penn is old and we needed a succession plan both because of his age, his Lis Franc injury (let's not forget the team has much better info than we do on his health and rehab), and while we have him under contract through 2018, we needed to start building leverage and have other options in case he does get injured.

I like to think the right side of the line could develop, but nothing we've seen from Alexander or Ware has impressed, and beyond the core of our line (Penn, Osemele, Gabe Jackson, and Hudson) there is little there to provide relief or depth. Feliciano has been serviceable but not the caliber of player we need in rotation or succession, Giacomini is simply a plugger journeyman who seems to be brought in by Gruden and Cable to provide camp competition, and pretty much no one of use thereafter (Simmons, Kirkland, and Ware all need to show their worth despite the "promise" we hope they have).

Our D still has some major holes, but unlike the O-line, we have high-grade pieces that still look like they can bring a lot of talent that we haven't fully seen on the field yet -- Obi and Conley specifically -- and unlike the O-line, we are now four deep in depth across every defensive position up front and in the middle backfield except for NT and MLB (which will be 4-deep if/when we resign Bowman). So while there may not be tons of blue chip prospects, we have a lot of options and competition set to hopefully make cream rise.

And I think every draft grader doesn't factor in getting Martavis Bryant, which like you, I think is huge.

I am excited that we could literally have the SOD in Hurst, and will be exciting to see if Hall, Key, Nelson, and Victor can live up to promise and overcome some of their purported downsides. 

Overall it's not a home run draft, but it aligns perfectly to the strategy and dymanics Gruden is trying to create, future-proofs us a little to protect our biggest asset in Carr, and got some key players at good discounts. I give us a B-. 

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6 hours ago, LawFitz said:

Interesting, if not unsurprising to see consensus draft grades look so poor. Bottom line is all the picks are moderate-to-high risk/reward, each with significant bust potential for widely varying reasons. Gruden clearly believes he and his staff can develop/motivate. He said in a recent interview that is one of the most important aspects of being a successful coach.

I still don't understand the Hurst pick. How does a guy like this fall that far and have no immediate medical restrictions? That is set up to be the monster come-up pick for this draft. Hall and Hurst are gonna bear dance.

Key and Martavis also potentially stolen top talent, if Gruden is able to keep these guys straight. I like that Chucky's a gambler with mid-late round rookie contracts. That is exactly where you gamble on these types of guys. Martavus playing for his FA contract this year could be sick. I won't be surprised to see him end the season with more fantasy points than any other Raiders WR.

Regarding Hurst. My guess is he didn't go earlier even if his medicals are good now because who knows for sure how many years he will play. Hopefully it's a long and fruitful career for him and the Raiders both. Once teams get into the 5th round the salaries for those players start getting below the 51 player threshold and don't count against the cap so it makes it more worth the risk. I'm sure the Raiders knew that and that is probably why they traded up to get him in the early 5th round because I'm sure at that point other teams were starting to think the same thing.

Edited by krsone21

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So, when's Aldon coming back?

:clyde:

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Just now, Chaka said:

So, when's Aldon coming back?

:clyde:

Next to never times infinity.

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9 hours ago, LawFitz said:

Interesting, if not unsurprising to see consensus draft grades look so poor.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-2018-nfl-draft-oakland-raiders-breakdown

PFF has a very nice breakdown of the players:

Quote

The Raiders traded down from the 10th overall pick and picked up an extra third- and fifth-rounder for it, so that was a great start. They then used the 15th pick to take big Kolton Miller out of UCLA. Miller is the most athletic tackle in the class, but his uneven production over his college career could be cause for concern. While last year’s grade of 87.4 overall was good, he had far too many quick losses in pass protection and run-blocking. Before that he had grades of 79.9 as a freshman and 72.9 as a sophomore. His run-blocking especially needs some work, as he finished with only the 38th-best run-blocking success rate among draft-eligible tackles last season (91.6 percent).

With the recent speculation of Donald Penn’s off-field issues, this pick may make more sense. They signed RT Breno Giacomini this offseason, but he’s coming off a really poor season in which he had a league-worst 89.5 pass blocking efficiency rating thanks to a league-high 81 total pressures allowed, and still could be in use of an upgrade at potentially both positions. New offensive line coach Tom Cable likely had a big part in selecting Miller and likely feels that he can mold his athletic traits into a high-quality right tackle to anchor the Raiders offensive line.

Round 2 (57) P.J. Hall, DI, Sam Houston State, n/a

As stated earlier, the Raiders clearly had an idea to pick high-level athletes that may not have put it all together yet or played against great level of competition. Hall fits the latter, as he had impressive production throughout his college career but did so against FCS competition. Hall is an explosive athlete, as evidenced by his 4.73 40-yard dash (1.70 10-yard split) despite weighing 310 pounds. Still, the Raiders had to like that Hall finished his college career with 86.5 tackles for loss and 42 sacks in four years.

The Raiders currently have a few interior defenders penciled in as likely starters but there’s no reason Hall couldn’t at least add some depth. Mario Edwards Jr. and Eddie Vanderdoes are there right now but neither had impressive seasons last year (72.8 and 56.5 overall grades, respectively). Even if he needs some time to adjust to the higher level of play in the NFL, he should be able to get some experience this season.

Round 3 (65) Brandon Parker, OT, North Carolina A&T, n/a

Another Day 2 pick that came from a small school, Parker has the tools and traits that all coaches love. He has great size and length as well as some explosiveness. But Parker failed to impress in his Senior Bowl week this offseason as he struggled in 1-on-1, allowing two “sacks” and four hurries on 35 reps. That continued in the actual Senior Bowl itself, where he allowed two sacks and five hurries on 23 pass-blocking plays.

Much like Miller, coach Cable clearly likes what he sees out of Parker physically. He believes that he has the tools and traits to be a starting calibre offensive tackle, despite his lack of on-field production. He should provide the Raiders with some tackle depth and perhaps a role as a swing tackle for running plays, while continuing to develop.

Round 3 (87) Arden Key, Edge, LSU, 81.6 overall grade

Key was a solid late third-round pick, as there was once talk of him as a possible top-10 pick overall. His sophomore and junior seasons were fantastic, especially 2016 where he earned an 88.0 pass-rushing grade (one of the highest single-season grades among any draft-eligible edge rushers). Last season was a concern though as Key had just a 78.2 pass-rushing grade after recording just five sacks and 28 total pressures.

Edge defender wasn’t a huge priority position for the Raiders as they have one of the best in the business in Khalil Mack as well as a solid complement in Bruce Irvin. But behind them, the Raiders don’t have much depth. Key should be able to jump in alongside players like Tank Carradine and James Cowser and help provide some occasional rest for Irvin and Mack.

Round 4 (110) Nick Nelson, CB, Wisconsin, 89.1 overall grade

Nelson came seemingly out of nowhere in 2017 and finished the season with the fifth-best corner grade at 89.1 overall. Nelson has interesting ball skill numbers as he made 29 pass defenses in three years as a starter but failed to record even one interception. Still, allowing just 37.7 percent of targets thrown at him last season is an impressive number.

Nelson may not be able to oust starters Rashaan Melvin or Gareon Conley at corner for the Raiders, but he shouldn’t be expected to. Nelson can provide some good depth for the Raiders and help out in sub packages, while continuing to develop his game.

Round 5 (140) Maurice Hurst, DI, Michigan, 96.8 overall grade

This could be the biggest steal of the draft in recent memory. Hurst was our highest non-quarterback on the draft board, but fell due to concerns about a heart condition. Hurst has said that this condition has been known since he started at Michigan and clearly it hasn’t affected him much. Hurst’s 96.8 overall grade is the highest we’ve seen from an interior defender in four years of grading. His 31 run-stops ranked third among interior defenders in this class and his 49 total pressures and 12.1 pass-rushing productivity both ranked first.

Hurst is good enough that as long as his health concerns don’t affect him, he should be a starter for the Raiders. He’ll fit right in as a 3-tech in defensive coordinator Paul Guenther’s scheme. The Raiders will finally get an interior pass-rusher that can also defend the run to go along with Mack and push the Raiders defensive line to a new level.

Round 5 (173) Johnny Townsend, P, Florida, n/a

Townsend was part of a string of three punters taken in the fifth round. He was one of the best punters in the NCAA last season, averaging a second-best 47.2 yards per punt. He had just five touchbacks and landed 26 punts inside the 20-yard line.

The Raiders are looking for a new punter after they released star Marquette King this offseason. Townsend will compete with Colby Wadman for the position. Wadman is a former UC Davis punter who had a tryout with both the Raiders and Colts last season.

Round 6 (216) Azeem Victor, LB, Washington, 73.8 overall grade

Victor was a solid linebacker as a sophomore in 2015, grading well and recording 45 solo stops as well as 11 total pressures on limited pass-rushes. But it’s been a downhill slope since then. An injury in 2016 shortened a solid season before what ended up being a disaster of a senior year. Two suspensions, playing overweight and what appeared to be a lack of effort at times led to him playing just 225 snaps all season (of a possible 813).

The Raiders are hoping that they can unlock the sophomore Victor, who looked like he would be a promising linebacker for a couple more years. If they can help him deal with his off-the-field issues, they might be able to find a depth or special teams role for him.

Round 7 (228) Marcell Ateman, WR, Oklahoma State, 87.9 overall grade

Another fantastic late-round pickup by the Raiders in Ateman, who was No. 79 on our big board. Ateman isn’t a big time separation receiver, but he uses his huge frame and strong hands well to provide value as a possession receiver. He gained 320 yards on contested catches last season, the ninth-most in the entire country. His 3.52 yards per route run average ranked fifth, and he dropped just 11 passes in his three-year career with Oklahoma State.

The Raiders acquired Martavis Bryant during Draft weekend, as well as signed Packers great Jordy Nelson this offseason. Those two figure to be ahead on the depth chart, right behind incumbent starter Amari Cooper. Ateman should be in great shape to fight for that fourth wide receiver position and earn himself some playing time this coming season.

Bottom line is, most draft graders have really similar rankings, and when you take a player they've silently agreed to dislike (Miller, Josh Allen) you can pretty much write the grade writeup in your head.  

Fact:  After the Chargers stole Derwin James, the Chargers were gonna get a good grade.  I mean, there's no one else on their draft that scares anyone.  Their draft was one blue chip player (at a NON premium position) and some guys that no one was hyping.  But graders clearly look favorably on the rest of the picks after a great pick.  

Mainly it's because none of these guys watched NEARLY as much film as they like everyone to assume.  

How much film have they watched of North Carolina A&T to get a feel for Brandon Parker?  I mean, it's laughable.  The teams have area scouts, who cover their area, and don't watch anything beyond that zone.  Meantime, we are to believe that some dude with a full time job and an internet connection is breaking down 4th round safeties?  :lol:

The good ones are pretty good on the first 2 or 3 round ranked players.  Positions fans are reading about, they pay attention to the top guys.  Beyond that, I think they read some stuff, and go with the flow.  

 

The best minds are geeking out on one position, which I think is the way to go.  Matt Harmon with WR, Justis Mosqueda with edge rushers, there's a cornerback guy.  Those guys show their work too, they are solid on analytics, minimums that correlate with NFL success.  

The addition of data, and using history to predict future, is really useful, especially in fantasy.  

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Jon Gruden - C - Raiders

According to Bleacher Report's Mike Freeman, coach Jon Gruden has "effectively replaced" Reggie McKenzie as the Raiders' general manager.

It's been pretty clear to see when looking at the Raiders' offseason; the team has taken on far more risky players than McKenzie ever did in his time calling the shots, and Gruden is going all out in adding a ton of veterans. Per Freeman, Gruden has "quietly consolidated power to the point where he's effectively the head coach, general manager, CEO and just about everything else." No other coach outside of maybe Bill Belichick has this much say in an organization, and we're not sure what Gruden has done to earn it. If he wins in Oakland it won't matter, but things could get ugly in a hurry if the Raiders don't turn this around immediately. That 10-year, $100 million contract -- the largest in NFL coaching history -- may prove to be a colossal mistake.

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1 hour ago, ICON211 said:

Jon Gruden - C - Raiders

According to Bleacher Report's Mike Freeman, coach Jon Gruden has "effectively replaced" Reggie McKenzie as the Raiders' general manager.

It's been pretty clear to see when looking at the Raiders' offseason; the team has taken on far more risky players than McKenzie ever did in his time calling the shots, and Gruden is going all out in adding a ton of veterans. Per Freeman, Gruden has "quietly consolidated power to the point where he's effectively the head coach, general manager, CEO and just about everything else." No other coach outside of maybe Bill Belichick has this much say in an organization, and we're not sure what Gruden has done to earn it. If he wins in Oakland it won't matter, but things could get ugly in a hurry if the Raiders don't turn this around immediately. That 10-year, $100 million contract -- the largest in NFL coaching history -- may prove to be a colossal mistake.

This is my biggest fear with the gruden hiring. All the eggs in one basket. Could be great, but I just don't see it.  I don't like it that character  isn't that important to gruden.  Those cinci d's did what they wanted and shot themselves in the foot in the most important moments. I hope we don't get that bad. Guenther obviously couldn't control them or instill the needed discipline. People say that gruden is a hard ### and will lay down law. We'll see. :shrug:  

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We all knew (or at least should have) that Gruden would get final say based on the contracts. He's guaranteed $100 MM to maybe like $5 MM for Reggie. I've already stated my concerns about lowering character standards generally. There is a right way to do that though. The Pats and Ravens have done it for years... Establish a strong coaching staff and locker room full of high character guys first, then inject a few talented misfits here and there and try to rehab/integrate them into a strong and tight overall team culture. We'll see if Chucky sees it that way too and if he can pull it off. It becomes a delicate balance at some point if taken too far. Cincy is a great example of talented hotheads melting. There are plenty of others. Pats and Ravens aren't the norm, obviously.

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Small school DT:

Nathan Shepherd, genius move!

PJ Hall, reach!!

Small school OT: 

Alex Cappa, Beast!!

Brandon Parker, reach!!

 

Mmm, OK

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Based on measurables and production, PJ Hall could be the best player in the 2018 draft. And they may have gotten the 2nd best in Maurice Hurst. Putting that out to the universe right now. Get hype for these two beasts. Epic upgrade potential here for Raiders interior pash rush.

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4 hours ago, DA RAIDERS said:

This is my biggest fear with the gruden hiring. All the eggs in one basket. Could be great, but I just don't see it.  I don't like it that character  isn't that important to gruden.  Those cinci d's did what they wanted and shot themselves in the foot in the most important moments. I hope we don't get that bad. Guenther obviously couldn't control them or instill the needed discipline. People say that gruden is a hard ### and will lay down law. We'll see. :shrug:  

Good thoughts. At first, my reaction to the bolded was, "What?!? Did we forget the Raiders in their heyday were made up of questionable character players, the dregs and castoffs from other teams where they couldn't cut it there, but became the very backbone of success and the Poise and Pride ethos the team *should* always have at its core."

But thinking through this more, totally agree with you and @LawFitz that there is a blanace and a right way to do it. The note about Cinci is sage in this regard -- that was absolutely the wrong way to do it, and indexed too much towards near tolerance of out and out bad behavior than simple looking past "character issues" that players may be saddled with (fairly or unfairly).

We can look to Chuckie's past coaching stints with us and TB to see how he toed that line, but I think the shedding of Marquette King is great directional data as to where Gruden stands on allowing leeway for players who seem like they are up to moving past all of their troubles, and not giving leeway for players who are potentially causing troubles in the here and now. 

51 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

Based on measurables and production, PJ Hall could be the best player in the 2018 draft. And they may have gotten the 2nd best in Maurice Hurst. Putting that out to the universe right now. Get hype for these two beasts. Epic upgrade potential here for Raiders interior pash rush.

Here's hoping you're right. But I can't see how Hurst isn't the SOD, especially for us over Hall. Both guys have big question marks, but Hurst was/is an undeniable blue chipper and was considered a Top 10 pick. And we got him in the 5th. Compare that to Hall, who is one of our more intriguing picks, who was projected to go in the 3rd or 4th but we took 57th overall in the 2nd round.

We're splitting hairs, and I think Hall brings more pros than cons in his game to the table, but by my books, it's Hurst who has the best potential to truly be the best player out of this draft by a country mile over Hall. 

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1 hour ago, massraider said:

Small school DT:

Nathan Shepherd, genius move!

PJ Hall, reach!!

Small school OT: 

Alex Cappa, Beast!!

Brandon Parker, reach!!

 

Mmm, OK

Would be interesting to see the what reaction was like to drafting other small school guys like, oh, I don't know, Walter Payton (Jackson St), Jerry Rice (Miss. Valley State), Deacon Jones (Mississippi Vocational College), Night Train Lane (Western Nebraska Community College) and even our own Willie Brown (Grambling) and Gene Upshaw (Texas A&I).

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4 hours ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

 

But thinking through this more, totally agree with you and @LawFitz that there is a blanace and a right way to do it. The note about Cinci is sage in this regard -- that was absolutely the wrong way to do it, and indexed too much towards near tolerance of out and out bad behavior than simple looking past "character issues" that players may be saddled with (fairly or unfairly).

We can look to Chuckie's past coaching stints with us and TB to see how he toed that line, but I think the shedding of Marquette King is great directional data as to where Gruden stands on allowing leeway for players who seem like they are up to moving past all of their troubles, and not giving leeway for players who are potentially causing troubles in the here and now.

The Raiders have potential for some troubled players between Bryant and some of the rookies.   But, the players have not done anything wrong since becoming a Raider and as long as Gruden keeps every player under some control, he can take chances on players.   Treat all the players equally and make sure that they know where the line is drawn.   He has to stay on top of any player issues and discipline appropriately to avoid the team from spiraling downward like cincy.  

Edited by DocHolliday
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I think there's a latent bias working against PJ Hall among Raider fans and pundits that is relating him to recently departed Jihad Ward, as both are Reggie Mac 2nd rd 3-tech 'reaches.'

Please, somebody post their comparative production and measurables.  It's night and day how different these two players look to me.

Edited by LawFitz
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1 hour ago, Sarlakticacid said:

Derrick Johnson visiting Oakland apparently 

Great pedigree in college and in the NFL, but has been super hard for him with injuries over the last 2+ years, likely camp competition.

This continues to not bode well for our resigning of Bowman. I have no idea why this deal has been stalled for this long, given that I haven't heard any news since March or so about other teams' interest in him.

I get the business strategy on both sides as to why it might be taking this long, but while the Raiders shouldn't break bank for him, they should IMHO be more aggressive in making an attractive offer for a guy who came in with the 11th highest PFF grade at his position last year -- Bowman proved it (to me at least) in his one year deal. 

And given the relative silence over other teams' interest in Bowman over the last few months, I would think his own expectations might have come back to reality to the point where job security -- on a team with Gruden and on the upswing -- would also be more attractive.

TBH, we need him.

 

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