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== OFFICIAL OAKLAND RAIDERS 2018 thread == (2 Viewers)

Bruno2 said:
Agreed. The point I'm trying to make is Mack can't do it on his own. For years all they had on defense was Mack and Irvin and the rest was garbage. They also have to find a way to cover TEs and RBs coming out of the backfield which have killed them over the years.
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 I don’t think the Raider have been able to cover a tight end in 30 years. Even during the Super Bowl run that was still a major weakness for them. 

 
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DocHolliday said:
Not sure how I feel about that either since we never saw Switzer play and I have wanted a true slot WR in Oakland for years.  But, a 5th round pick sounds nice and the Raiders have a pretty deep WR corp. 
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We gave up a 4th for him

 
Here's what I have heard.  Oakland came out with a kind of "best foot forward" offer back in February or thereabout.  Mack's group responded with demands that were, while not totally out of this world, very high.  Since then, Oakland has been unwilling to respond because the initial numbers from the Mack camp were not in proportion to the very good offer presented by the team, at least from the team's point of view.  I am told (very second hand) that the Mack camp miscalculated and wrongfully presumed with Gruden coming aboard and the team moving in a positive direction, the team would cave and give him a monstrous deal sooner rather than later. I even got the impression that he was hoping to have a deal done before camp began.  I am also told that Mack is not dug in to the point of being willing to miss games. 

In short, I think the whole situation is one in which both sides miscalculated the other's position and resolve.  Mack knows the team has all the leverage here and I am told he will in fact report and not miss any games as a showing of good faith in an effort to try and get his deal done.

PS-  I am also told more directly that the talk about Davis not being able to come up with the money to pay Mack is complete and utter nonsense. 

Take all of the above with however many grains of salt you would like.  It's just what I have heard

 
Silver & Black said:
Here's what I have heard.  Oakland came out with a kind of "best foot forward" offer back in February or thereabout.  Mack's group responded with demands that were, while not totally out of this world, very high.  Since then, Oakland has been unwilling to respond because the initial numbers from the Mack camp were not in proportion to the very good offer presented by the team, at least from the team's point of view.  I am told (very second hand) that the Mack camp miscalculated and wrongfully presumed with Gruden coming aboard and the team moving in a positive direction, the team would cave and give him a monstrous deal sooner rather than later. I even got the impression that he was hoping to have a deal done before camp began.  I am also told that Mack is not dug in to the point of being willing to miss games. 

In short, I think the whole situation is one in which both sides miscalculated the other's position and resolve.  Mack knows the team has all the leverage here and I am told he will in fact report and not miss any games as a showing of good faith in an effort to try and get his deal done.

PS-  I am also told more directly that the talk about Davis not being able to come up with the money to pay Mack is complete and utter nonsense. 

Take all of the above with however many grains of salt you would like.  It's just what I have heard
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I cherish each and every one of your posts, buddy.

 
massraider said:
I posted this in July.  Basically, Donald and Mack are in the territory of setting the market again for defenders.  They share an agent.  The Raiders control Mack for the next three years easily, so a trade isn't happening.  Also, even before the Donald talk started recently that they were close, there was STILL no talk that the Rams were being stupid, or that he was being traded.  So why is OAK different?
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i'm in the minority.  i usually side with the owners/teams.  why on earth would either the rams or the raiders, cripple/hurt/damage their futures, by paying one guy?  the rams have 2 years of franchise tags for donald.  how long do DT's remain uber dominant?  same with mack, but he's a little younger and edge guys have a longer shelf life.  once he starts losing game checks, things will get real for him.  i think this team is 8-8, at best, with mack.  so why screw with the future.  let him sit out.

 
DA RAIDERS said:
i'm in the minority.  i usually side with the owners/teams.  why on earth would either the rams or the raiders, cripple/hurt/damage their futures, by paying one guy?  the rams have 2 years of franchise tags for donald.  how long do DT's remain uber dominant?  same with mack, but he's a little younger and edge guys have a longer shelf life.  once he starts losing game checks, things will get real for him.  i think this team is 8-8, at best, with mack.  so why screw with the future.  let him sit out.
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I feel what you're saying.  And I think he will pull a Lev Bell, wait till last minute, and come in.

Regarding crippling the cap, I'm a total salary cap geek.  We are in as good a shape as anyone in terms of cap.  Reggie, to me, is almost beyond criticism, in terms of handling the cap, overall.  There are always Austin Howards.  No one bats 1.000.  

But for the NFL in general, and the Raiders in particular, salary cap hell isn't something to worry about.  Carr's deal is gonna look like Brady's deal in about a year (already making 5 mill less than Cousins).  Cap keeps going up 10+ mill, and even if it didn't, we have no contracts we hate.  Zero.  (OK, Seth Roberts)

Reggie making smart deals, and no long term guaranteed money wasted on many guys means we can afford to pay Mack, and Cooper when the time comes.  We have 47 mill in cap space (next year), and will add 15 mill when Irvin and Penn are cut next spring.  

We good.  

 
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massraider said:
I feel what you're saying.  And I think he will pull a Lev Bell, wait till last minute, and come in.

Regarding crippling the cap, I'm a total salary cap geek.  We are in as good a shape as anyone in terms of cap.  Reggie, to me, is almost beyond criticism, in terms of handling the cap, overall.  There are always Austin Howards.  No one bats 1.000.  

But for the NFL in general, and the Raiders in particular, salary cap hell isn't something to worry about.  Carr's deal is gonna look like Brady's deal in about a year (already making 5 mill less than Cousins).  Cap keeps going up 10+ mill, and even if it didn't, we have no contracts we hate.  Zero.  (OK, Seth Roberts)

Reggie making smart deals, and no long term guaranteed money wasted on many guys means we can afford to pay Mack, and Cooper when the time comes.  We have 47 mill in cap space (next year), and will add 15 mill when Irvin and Penn are cut next spring.  

We good.  
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agreed.  but, it's just smart business to not bend over to players demands when they are under contract for years.  just my opinion.

 
DA RAIDERS said:
agreed.  but, it's just smart business to not bend over to players demands when they are under contract for years.  just my opinion.
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YES, and this what I've been saying.  Just yelling, ''PAY THE GUY, YOU GREEDY OWNER, YOU BEING DUMB" isn't particularly valid, if you have no reason to believe they are being unreasonable.

This isn't the Bengals, with a history of pinching pennies.  We have nothing to back up the idea that the Raiders have no money, or are being unfair with Khalil.  

Overall, I don't like the idea of us fans taking a hardline stance, without knowing, let's be honest, ANYTHING, about the negotiations.  It leads to fans having long term hard feelings one way or another, based on nothing.  

Negotiations can be tough, and the Rams and the Raiders are both about the set the new bar for defenders.  That is not easy.  

 
It's wholly unbalanced articles like this, which are by far and away the majority, that are swaying public opinion the wrong way here. Levi sounds a lot like HSG. Acting like the Raiders aren't trying to pay Mack, and crucifying Gruden for it. Why isn't anyone asking why Mack hasn't taken the offer they presented? Or why he's asking for way WAY more than Von Miller? @Silver & Black painted the picture that I was seeing before even hearing him say it. Mack is playing hardball in a situation with no leverage. He'll soon see the light, I think, and report just before week 1. And if not, no worries. Gruden and Guenther have a good plan in place to survive, even thrive until he does. The Raiders are finally doing smart business, and laughably, the media and so many fans and bashing them for doing so.

Losing Khalil Mack would become Jon Gruden’s legacy, putting permanent dark cloud over his Raiders return

Details of the current state of the negotiations between the Raiders and Khalil Mack paint a bleak picture. And it’s in Gruden’s hands to make it right. Or forever live with the consequences.

By Levi Damien@LeviDamien  Aug 28, 2018, 10:48am PDT

Panic mode is setting in. The season is fast approaching and the reports from both sides of Khalil Mack’s contract negotiations are not promising. Specifically that there aren’t any negotiations happening.

A report Monday night from Charles Robinson of Yahoo! Sports paints a bleak picture of the contract standoff between Mack’s people and the Raiders. Here are the details that stand out:

1. The impasse is likely to last into the season.

2. Negotiations have been at a stalemate since February (we’ve heard this before).

This is not how Gruden wants to get his 10-year, $100 million return to the sideline started.

3. The situation has devolved into a “pay him or trade him” conversation.

4. Jon Gruden has final say on any deal that gets done.

5. Gruden is open to trade offers.

6. Funding for Mack’s contract is not an issue for Mark Davis.

7. The Aaron Donald deal is not a holdup.

8. Mark Davis may need to step in.

9. The team is ok with Mack coming back and playing unhappy.

None of this is good news. Gruden knows this.

It can’t be understated how much of a mistake botching this would be for Jon Gruden’s legacy. He hasn’t even coached his first game back with the Raiders and he is already in serious danger of raining on his own parade by taking the field without the best defensive player in the NFL.

How long has this franchise been waiting to actually draft a player the caliber of Khalil Mack? Have they ever drafted a defender of his talent level? That’s debatable.

They’ve only ever drafted one other player who went on to be named Defensive Player of the Year. That was Lester Hayes, who they selected in the 1977 draft and who won the award in 1980 with a still NFL modern-era record 13 interceptions. The only drafted Hall of Fame defender the Raiders have had is Howie Long.

Mack is already more accomplished than Hayes and is in the same conversation at Long. That 1980 season was Hayes’s only All Pro season. Long was named All Pro twice. Mack has already been named All Pro twice in four years, including being the only player in the history of the NFL to be named All Pro at two different positions (LB, DE) in the same year.

Saying this would be like losing Howie Long in his prime doesn’t even cover it. Long came to the Raiders in their heyday. The Raiders had been an NFL powerhouse for nearly a decade when he started going to Pro Bowls. That team didn’t need a player like Long the way this team has needed, and will continue to need Mack.

This franchise hasn’t sniffed success since…well since they were fielding the team Gruden built in 2002. Since he beat them in the Super Bowl in his first season as head coach of the Buccaneers.

That Super Bowl loss sent the Raiders on a downward spiral from which they have yet to recover. And it was all because Al Davis traded Gruden for draft picks. It would seem Gruden would understand that trading proven commodities for draft picks is not such a great strategy.

Now for Gruden to come back and have his first act be to lose the greatest thing to happen to this team in 17 years? How would the two most lasting memories of Gruden for Raiders fans not be him TWICE ripping their hearts out?

And that is to say nothing of the immediately on-field ramifications of attempting to field a shaky defense wholly reliant upon the only solid piece to its foundation.

This is not how Gruden wants to get his 10-year, $100 million return to the sideline started. It’s a stain that will never wash off. Nor should it.

Get this contract done. Pay the NFL Defensive Player of the Year like he’s the best defensive player in the NFL. Don’t make your first step back into coaching be a permanent, unforgivable black mark.
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krsone21 said:
I wouldn't be shocked if Gruden doesn't do some more wheeling and dealing closer to cut down day to turn some of the surplus at certain positions into more picks.
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I expect us to try to do the same. Always hard to predict because you need a partner to dance. We definitely have guys that will be picked up by other teams if they get cut and we don't h as ve room for them all. Hopefully we get some value out of them like we did with Switzer. It doesn't seem there has been a lot of injuries this pre-season though and the last pre-season game is full of guys playing that would not force roster moves if they got hurt. Might be rough.

 
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Cross posting from another thread. 

Will be at the game tonight in Seattle -- last time I pay money for a preseason game, let alone the 4th meaningless game in an increasingly meaningless preseason, but not being in Oakland, beggars can't be choosers to see the beloved Silver & Black live.

So things I'll be watching tonight, starting with the Seahawks:

  • Amara Darboh (WR) -- with Baldwin apparently not going to be 100% this season, a very talented but still show-me-what-you-got Tyler Lockett, and other lackluster/fading options like Jaron Brown and Brandon Marshall. So far Darboh has impressed in camp, and he has the measurables (6'2 215) to potentially be a difference maker in this offence that seems to need some WR support
  • Shaquem Griffin (LB) -- love this guy's story, heart, and raw ability (on it's own and given his disability). He's electric and talented -- and with K.J. Wright dinged, could be in line to start in WK 1
  • J.R. Sweezy (G) -- back on SEA, hasn't played in preseason that I know of thanks to getting dinged in the first practice. 
For the Raiders:

  • Marcel Ateman (WR) -- with Ryan Switzer and Griff Whalen gone, will be interesting to see how Ateman steps up to challenge Seth Roberts/Dwayne Harris (who I'll also be watching) as the 4th WR on the team
  • Donald Penn (T) -- looked absolutely lost in his first game back on the right side. Hopefully we'll see him get reps and get acclimated -- and back to looking like a Pro Bowler, but wonder if they sit him to avoid injury as we're potentially pretty shaky on the right side without him.
  • Our kicking game -- we cut Tavecchio, and with Pineiro hurt, this game (and perhaps the first games of the season) may come down to oldster Mike Nugent.
  • D-Line/LB competition -- who makes the grade between guys like Mario Edwards Jr., Tank Carradine, Shilique Calhoun, Gabe Wright, and Fadol Brown. There are going to be hard choices in the midfield as Coswer has had a great preseason, but apparently still behind guys like Emmanuel Lamur and Kyle Wilber. On the weakside, Whitehead will likely rest, but how will Morrow and Azeem Victor fair?
  • CB competition -- behind starters like Rashaan Mevin, Gareon Conley, Karl Jospeh, Reggie Neslon and rotational guys like Leon Hall, Daryl Worley, and Erik Harris (whose spots aren't guaranteed), we have 11 other guys vying for spots. Every rep counts.
Honorable mention -- Seabass in a Seahawks uni.

 
Khalil Mack - DL -  Raiders

NFL.com's Ian Rapoport reports the Raiders are "essentially nowhere" in talks with holdout DE Khalil Mack.

Rapsheet echoes Yahoo's Charles Robinson's report that Mack is now likely to miss regular season games. New Raiders football czar Jon Gruden's masterplan of not even talking with his franchise player is looking more dubious by the day. Questionable even with Mack, the Raiders are not a good football team without him.
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:unsure:

 
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"Questionable even with Mack, the Raiders are not a good football team without him."

We'll see. If quotes like this are proven right, it'll be because of suspect OTs, not missing Mack. Even w/o Mack DL is a strength this year.

Hopefully Mack comes to his senses soon.

 
Chaka said:
Dude. There is no spinning the absence of Mack as anything other than a massive loss for the Raiders.

They are much worse without him. Much, much worse.
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No doubt the team is better with him.

That being said the defense will be better than last season with or without Mack. Last years coaching was atrocious.

 
Not only has the defensive scheme gone from zero to hero, but they added what appear to be 4 major impact rookies, plus what looks like huge progression from several young vets: Lee, Brown, Calhoun, Hester; and several bargain but impact FAs: Melvin, Worley, Gilcrest.

This D and this team are going to surprise a lot of people this season. I cannot wait to see Gruden shove crow down throats.

 
krsone21 said:
No doubt the team is better with him.

That being said the defense will be better than last season with or without Mack. Last years coaching was atrocious.
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LawFitz said:
This. 1000%
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Sarlakticacid said:
Plus 1
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Great so they go from awful to below average? Mediocre? Middling?

With Mack this unit could be game changing. Not happening without him. Not even close. He is the difference between fringe and legitimate contention.

 
The reason the Rams haven't signed the Aaron Donald deal (the contract that will set the bar for Mack) is because they want to give the Raiders as little time as possible to get Mack in before they play in week one.

BAM! Science.

 
Chaka said:
Great so they go from awful to below average? Mediocre? Middling?

With Mack this unit could be game changing. Not happening without him. Not even close. He is the difference between fringe and legitimate contention.
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That's like, just your opinion, man. This D is gonna be good without Mack or great with him. Don't even bother comparing them to last year. It's night and day.

 
LawFitz said:
That's like, just your opinion, man. This D is gonna be good without Mack or great with him. Don't even bother comparing them to last year. It's night and day.
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This defense definitely looks improved but zero chance at greatness (y'know the kind that wins championships) and very little chance at goodness without Mack.

He's exactly the kind of guy you pay. 

 
Chaka said:
He's exactly the kind of guy you pay. 
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They are trying. He and/or his agent are being unreasonable. He'll be back by the time it really counts, one way or another. Don't bunch your pants if he misses a reg season game or three in the meantime. The trade rumors are BS.

 
LawFitz said:
They are trying. He and/or his agent are being unreasonable. He'll be back by the time it really counts, one way or another. Don't bunch your pants if he misses a reg season game or three in the meantime. The trade rumors are BS.
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Where are you getting info? Every report is they have not spoken since February.

How are they being unreasonable? Someone needs to be the highest paid defensive player in the NFL. He's one of the few guys who is legitimately deserving of of that distinction. And it will last for a year, maybe two.

Salary cap always goes up, he won't hurt the team by getting paid.

 
^^^ I'm not going over this again. Read back the last couple pages of this thread. Raiders offered him the highest paid Edge contract in the league. It wasn't enough. Yet.

 
Chaka said:
The reason the Rams haven't signed the Aaron Donald deal (the contract that will set the bar for Mack) is because they want to give the Raiders as little time as possible to get Mack in before they play in week one.

BAM! Science.
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But doesn't that brilliant plan mean that they are also without Aaron Donald for as little time as possible? hhmmnnn

 
Chadstroma said:
But doesn't that brilliant plan mean that they are also without Aaron Donald for as little time as possible? hhmmnnn
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Nope. The contract is done, just need signatures. He'll be in the lineup. Probably won't announce until Wednesday or Thursday.

 
Looking over the Mack situation, when I was looking at the Raiders cap:  https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/oakland-raiders I am left thinking, ''No excuse not to make him the highest paid defender in the league."

Check this:  We have 47 mill in cap space (estimated) next year.  I say estimated because we don't know how much the cap will grow.  We could add to that number by making these cuts:

Bruce Irvin
Seth Roberts
Jordy Nelson

That adds 21 mill in cap space.  69 mill in cap space with those cuts, and I didn't even include Penn.  69 million.  

The reason a Reggie McKenzie makes these smart deals, and concentrates on the draft, is so that when you draft a Khalil Mack, you have the wherewithal to KEEP him.  There are very, very few teams in the league with the capacity to take on a deal like this, we are in a much better cap situation than the Rams, for example.  

I don't believe he's going anywhere, I think they are content to let Donald sign, and beat that number.   I have thought this for a while now.  I think they are worried about overpaying. they don't want to set the market with a Suh-type deal.  And making him the highest paid player by a mill a year better than Donald is NOT overpaying.  3 mill more than Donald is overpaying.  

Whereas with Carr, they knew which way the QB wind was blowing, and they got out in front of it, and saved a bundle.  There were a bunch of QB data points available, it was easy to predict, which we talked about here when he was signed (getting in before Stafford, Ryan, and Cousins).  

We don't have that with Mack.  Von Miller was the last guy, Donald and Mack are going to reset the top of the front 7 contracts.  

The minute Donald signs, that's when the clock starts for me.  If he signs, and we wait till after this year, and franchise him, that's a mistake, he'll only cost more.  

Side note, I think we are lucky from the standpoint that I don't believe Mack is immature, or angry, or going to fire off angry tweets insulting the team.  He finally spoke on Twitter recently, https://twitter.com/52Mack_/status/1035332209979346945

Angry destroyed relationships between player and team are normally not this quiet.   :lol:

This mother-effing clickbait media world we live in means we are subjected to this BASELESS speculation, and pot-stirring, and crap hot takes.  

Ask yourself, when has a player as good as Mack, under team control for the next THREE YEARS, been traded?  Especially one who has been such a great teammate?  It would be unprecedented.  

 
This looks like the first real step in the right direction.  It's not what he says, necessarily, it's the fact he has finally come out and said something.  I think Gruden and the Raiders should now seize the opportunity to respond to what I interpret as a veiled olive branch by Mack to begin a dialogue to get him either signed or back with the team.  I interpret Mack saying he "misses it" somewhat disingenuous.  I'm sure he misses playing ball, but now he's facing the realization of missing real big game checks as well.  I think the cat's out of the bag now and Oakland's allegedly demanding 2 first rounders for him was brilliant way of saying "we aint trading him" and reinforces that Oakland has all the leverage in this situation.

Come on Chucky, Mack made the first ever so slight move.  Time to put egos aside and start the dialogue. 

 
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Mack should have reported, played this season for his 14 million and gone from there. Either the Raiders pay him or franchise him for 21 million. If they franchise him, then the process repeats. Pay or franchise. In three years, his worse case scenario is he made made close to 60 million and he’s a free agent as a 3rd tag is unlikely.  Risk of injury of course, but assuming it’s not career ending ( and very few are in reality) teams would still pay an elite pass rusher.  

Mack has leverage as long as he’s playing and performing.  He has none while sitting and not making money.  If he’s willing to pull a Kirk Cousins and play under the tag, he will come out of this financially better off than signing an extension now, plus he can pick where he plays.  

Easy to say when it’s not my money or career at stake but I really admired how Cousins played that whole game out with the Redskins.  Love to see guys take a risk for a bigger reward possibility.  

 
massraider said:
I don't believe he's going anywhere, I think they are content to let Donald sign, and beat that number.   I have thought this for a while now.  I think they are worried about overpaying. they don't want to set the market with a Suh-type deal.  And making him the highest paid player by a mill a year better than Donald is NOT overpaying.  3 mill more than Donald is overpaying.  
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Mack will be playing for the Raiders this season.  It is just a matter of knocking out the contract details once Donald signs.  And yes, I totally agree that Mack and his agent are making sure that Mack is the highest paid defensive player as it should be.  But, we have to wait for Donald to complete his game of chicken with the Rams.  That should end in a few days but it may not.  We cannot just assume that Donald signs quickly.  It is really strange that the Mack situation is getting so much more attention than Donalds.  Is that because the Rams don't have the national fanbase and therefore media attention as the Raiders do? 

 
Thoughts from watching the game last night (awesome to see such a huge Raider Nation presence at Century Link field, btw).

  • Oh my Keon Hatcher. Yes, 3 TDs, but this kid has amazing hands and a solid catch radius in the 8 passes he caught. The guy was EVERYWHERE -- making blocks downfield, contributing on ST, looking good doing it all. Raiders carried ~5 WRs last year, and though Hatcher looked good against scrubs, I think he may have earned a shot at the final roster. But who might he displace?  Cooper, Nelson, Bryant, and Roberts are still the core guys (Seth didn't suit up last night which means he's a likely starter) -- I think we keep Ateman on the PS and shed Blacknall (who also made a play or two last night including the TD -- how many WRs do we carry on the PS?), Harris, Holton, and Whitney.
  • Was the backup QB show last night. While Cook looked adequate, EJ Manuel looked fluid, made good decisions in the pocket (scramble vs throw away), and delivered balls with accuracy and some downfield power. He wasn't helped by some poor outside tackle play on both sides -- Penn better work out as RT as Parker looked shaky. Kudos to the Hawks backup, McGough -- when he was off, he was WAY off but the kid looked terrific on the run and was also delivering crisp passes.
  • Fadol Brown continues the tear -- guy was impressive against the Pack, and was batting passes, covering well downfield, and being disruptive in the pocket getting after the QB
  • Our CB play needs work. Raysean Pringle got picked on multiple times, especially on one deep throw to Stringfellow. He also let a WR blow past him for a 50+ yd reception but got lucky when the play was called back on a penalty. We clearly need to up the discipline in deep coverage, especially down the sidelines, where we were getting beat all night.
  • Officially have a man-crush on Chris Warren. We've all been singing his praises all preseason, but he is a force to see in person. A wrecking ball with impeccable balance, mowed over at least 2 guys, and took at least 2-3 guys to bring him down. He hits the hole hard and has some decent one-cut moves. I am getting my jersey now, this kid is our future in the backfield.
  • Jason Cabinda made the most out of his playing time -- 10 tackles.
Final thoughts -- was weird to see MEJ on the field very late in the game. Hall has completely outclassed him, but has Hester had a great camp/preseason? Wonder if he is now on the bubble. 

 
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Long time coming: Rams and Aaron Donald finalizing a record 6-year, $135 million, including $87 million guaranteed, per source. Richest defensive deal in NFL history. Donald now tied to LA for next seven years. And he will be ready for Monday night opener vs. Raiders.
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Clock starts now.

And that's why Mack waits.  We're talking 60 mill guaranteed, and Donald gets 87 mill.  Market reset.

 
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