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Trying to change our Week 17 Championship (1 Viewer)

B

Ben & Jerry's

Footballguy
Trying to get our league championship moved to Week 16 by demonstrating how many players are rested due to playoff scenarios already being set.

Where can I find a list of players that were not in action in week 17 that normally would have played under different circumstances ?

Thanks.

 
Week 17 championships are like any other league. Which is to say you need to adjust your strategy based on your league settings. Week 17 leagues are fine. They require you to approach your depth or mid-season trades a bit differently, but they're fine. The hate they get is overblown. It's not my preferred setup but I'm in one but it's not the nightmare it used to be. 

 
Hilts said:
People who played in week 17 championships last year and weren't prepared for that deserved to lose. It was well known they were going to rest guys.
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Stop. Did you know who was going to sit before your draft? How were they going to prepare? Pick up Lance Dunbar? Nonsense. Who are you picking up to cover Todd Gurley? Because, what? You anticipated the Rams would have a playoff bye back in August? And by the time that became a possibility there were replacement level players available? And your waiver system also put you in position to acquire those players?

 No, you're making a horribly I'll considered argument.

 
Chaka said:
Stop. Did you know who was going to sit before your draft? How were they going to prepare? Pick up Lance Dunbar? Nonsense. Who are you picking up to cover Todd Gurley? Because, what? You anticipated the Rams would have a playoff bye back in August? And by the time that became a possibility there were replacement level players available? And your waiver system also put you in position to acquire those players?

 No, you're making a horribly I'll considered argument.
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This is a pretty silly point you're trying to make. Did you who was going to bust and who was going to break out before your draft? I mean, in most leagues there are a lot of weeks between week 1 and week 17 to adjust rosters. Perhaps you play in some super elite hawkshark tier that bypasses all that nonsense. 

Who said anything about waiver position? Again, perhaps your setup only allows for this, but many leagues have other ways to address pickups. You should try some! And yes, picking up the backups for teams resting guys would probably be a smart move, depending on the rest of your team in that situation. 

You don't like week 17 championships. That's fine. Don't play them. Problem solved! As I stated above, week 17 championships require owners to either cultivate good backups, or be active traders to land players whose teams don't line up to start resting guys. 

I'm making an argument you don't like. That's different. I'm always amused to see the level of ANGER people have for anything different than what they like being wrong. It's a freaking game. The rules are clearly posted for all to see at the start. If you don't want to play within the structure then you don't need to. I don't have an issue with the op wanting to change his league, but nor do I have any issue with those who play week 17.

 
Hilts said:
This is a pretty silly point you're trying to make. Did you who was going to bust and who was going to break out before your draft? I mean, in most leagues there are a lot of weeks between week 1 and week 17 to adjust rosters. Perhaps you play in some super elite hawkshark tier that bypasses all that nonsense. 

Who said anything about waiver position? Again, perhaps your setup only allows for this, but many leagues have other ways to address pickups. You should try some! And yes, picking up the backups for teams resting guys would probably be a smart move, depending on the rest of your team in that situation. 

You don't like week 17 championships. That's fine. Don't play them. Problem solved! As I stated above, week 17 championships require owners to either cultivate good backups, or be active traders to land players whose teams don't line up to start resting guys. 

I'm making an argument you don't like. That's different. I'm always amused to see the level of ANGER people have for anything different than what they like being wrong. It's a freaking game. The rules are clearly posted for all to see at the start. If you don't want to play within the structure then you don't need to. I don't have an issue with the op wanting to change his league, but nor do I have any issue with those who play week 17.
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I going to start by pointing out thay, as far as I know no one is angry here. So let's run from that basic premise. Calling your points, so far, nonsense has nothing to do with anger.

I feel that you're making different unrelated points. Anticipating who gets a bye doesn't really have much to do with draft success. But when you have success in your draft the waiver wire becomes an issue. And by the time you get to the point where sitting players for week 17 becomes an issue you're looking at the Lance Dunbar's of the world and not much else regardless of your waiver system. Yay?!?!

You're waiver wire is not going to help you at the point that becomes a potentiality. What you are banking on is another degree of luck (good for you bad for the Gurley owner) on top of your draft luck and your waiver wire luck.

So how do you prepare for the loss of Gurley or Hunt due to sitting in week 17?

Again, it's nonsense. I welcome any coherent argument that demonstrates why getting lucky (again) is good for determining a magic football winner.

I want to be clear I have no problem saying I am wrong. Ask around I'm completely fine with it. I honestly want to know better. 

So please tell me why week 17 is good for magic football championship games.

 
Chaka said:
I going to start by pointing out thay, as far as I know no one is angry here. So let's run from that basic premise. Calling your points, so far, nonsense has nothing to do with anger.

I feel that you're making different unrelated points. Anticipating who gets a bye doesn't really have much to do with draft success. But when you have success in your draft the waiver wire becomes an issue. And by the time you get to the point where sitting players for week 17 becomes an issue you're looking at the Lance Dunbar's of the world and not much else regardless of your waiver system. Yay?!?!

You're waiver wire is not going to help you at the point that becomes a potentiality. What you are banking on is another degree of luck (good for you bad for the Gurley owner) on top of your draft luck and your waiver wire luck.

So how do you prepare for the loss of Gurley or Hunt due to sitting in week 17?

Again, it's nonsense. I welcome any coherent argument that demonstrates why getting lucky (again) is good for determining a magic football winner.

I want to be clear I have no problem saying I am wrong. Ask around I'm completely fine with it. I honestly want to know better. 

So please tell me why week 17 is good for magic football championship games.
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I'd say most, if not all, owners in championships get there without relying 100% on their draft success. Most need a little bit of luck. Unless you have some surefire way of avoiding injuries and busts. Sure, you can't completely blow it, but often a good championship team comes from making smart pickups and trades to supplement their good draft.

If you're waiting until week 17 to prepare for your week 17 championship you're likely a lousy owner who will never have to worry about vying for first. I don't wait until week 16 to get my roster ready for championships in normal leagues. I assume you also spend the many weeks prior ensuring you have the best team. Best team can vary depending on your scoring and the upcoming schedule. In ppr leagues, I might roll out some low end guy like Amendola. In a standard? Pffft, I doubt he'd ever see my roster. Do I need a big gamble or a just get me a few points and don't totally blow it kind of guy? In week 17 championships it would depend how my team is doing, but you definitely have to pay attention to the real life schedules. If I'm on the bubble? Screw it - give me the best players to get me there and I'll figure the rest out as it approaches. If I have a secure playoff spot? I'd consider trading away my star on a team looking like they're going to rest guys for a slightly lesser player looking likely to play. Is it a gamble? Sure. But fantasy sports in itself is a gamble, so whatever. Or I start grabbing backups on teams that look like they're going to rest their guys. 

If you would be so kind as to point out where I've said is good for magic football championship games then I'll be happy to explain it. I doubt you'll find me saying that, probably due to the fact I have said no such thing. I don't view it as good or bad. Just like week 16 championships. Neither good nor bad. They're simply different setups that have different challenges and require different approaches. PPR, touchdown only, and standard scoring leagues all have a lot of overlap, but there are some very key differences that require you to have very different approaches. It's no different with week 17 championships - it's mostly the same as a week 16 league, but there are some very key differences you need to start accounting for as you lock up your playoff spot. If you're in a week 17 league you have to pay close attention to real NFL standings and coaching history to start adjusting your teams as the season unfolds. Yes, that means you might have to trade away a Gurley for a lesser player. That's part of the challenge. It's not for everyone. That's fine. I don't like a lot of formats out there. But simply because I don't like it doesn't mean it's some awful way to play for those who enjoy it. 

 
Hilts said:
People who played in week 17 championships last year and weren't prepared for that deserved to lose. It was well known they were going to rest guys.
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It is easy to prepare for the loss. It is dumb because you are penalizing the te and that drafted well or traded well by making them replace the best fantasy players in the league.

 
I will offer an alternative. Everyone is always trying to take some of the luck out of fantasy football and make it more about skill and knowledge. I have a league that does 3 week combined score for the playoffs, just like the subscriber contest here to determine the playoff winners. 

 
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I've enjoyed two week 17 things over the years.

One was where we each paid $20 and made a one weekend contest of most points wins.  The other was a weekend where anyone could challenge anyone to a matchup for any amount under $100. Sometimes this one became "my QB is better than yours" or RB etc. The latter was the most fun because there's always one braggart and even the worst team wants to challenge him. It turned into a rule where you could turn down any challenges, but the person that turned down the most got a trophy that was not kindly named. 

 
Hilts said:
Week 17 championships are like any other league. Which is to say you need to adjust your strategy based on your league settings. Week 17 leagues are fine. They require you to approach your depth or mid-season trades a bit differently, but they're fine. The hate they get is overblown. It's not my preferred setup but I'm in one but it's not the nightmare it used to be. 
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I hate arguments like this.  That just say "it's different, learn to adjust".  It DIRECTLY punishes GOOD fantasy players.  Saying "Good fantasy players should learn to adjust" is so wrong on so many levels.  I like leagues that reward good fantasy play.  If the final was "only start kickers", I would not say that smart, good owners should draft 5 kickers and be watching them closely all year.

 
Deamon said:
I hate arguments like this.  That just say "it's different, learn to adjust".  It DIRECTLY punishes GOOD fantasy players.  Saying "Good fantasy players should learn to adjust" is so wrong on so many levels.  I like leagues that reward good fantasy play.  If the final was "only start kickers", I would not say that smart, good owners should draft 5 kickers and be watching them closely all year.
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Exactly. 

It’s a bit like Roto FBB vs H2H weekly roto FBB. 

I’m about to make the playoffs in my FBB League, in a H2H weekly format (6x6, w/OBP & QS) 

if we were straight roto i’d have had the championship locked up a month+ ago since I’m 1-2 in every category. Instead I’m the 3-seed, because the season is inexplicably split up onto rando 1-2 week slices, where luck plays a huge role. (But alas, 8 of my league-mates are FFB managers, and lack the intensity/attention span for straight roto) 

A week 17 FFB championship is a kindergarten league, and straight training wheels format.

Relying on waiver pickups of scrub players who won’t even play in a meaningful contest is ridiculous, and waters down the entire season. 

It devalues good drafting & trades, and puts a huge emphasis on who can pick up “guys still playing” in week 17. In FF you want the best teams playing, which in general are comprised of good players from great teams. And in general many of those players have a higher % chance of sitting in week 17, as their real teams may have locked up a playoff spot.

Why punish a FF manager for drafting those top players from top teams? 

Sure - you could draft all players from teams you think will either miss the playoffs or be in more competitive divisions, but that’s a dumb strategy to place emphasis on for a league outcome. 

Week 17 playoffs are for chumps.

hell, so is a wildcard round for that matter.  12 teams, 6 make the playoffs?  What is this, the NBA?  :rolleyes:

Boo to week 17 LCG. Boo I say! 

 
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some of you being really condescending in here as if all leagues are the same. not helpful dudes and dudettes, move on if u can't be constructive.

put me in the camp that week 17 is a challenge i can do without and pretty sure no one in my league would want to play that week. i can see the appeal, i guess, but like others said, what's the fun in not having the top players available in the most important week of the year for the teams who make it that far? single elimination already irks me as is, i'm digging msu's 3 week idea and may try to incorporate that. if that's the case, then week 17 may be viable for my league.

 
Pigskin Fanatic said:
some of you being really condescending in here as if all leagues are the same. not helpful dudes and dudettes, move on if u can't be constructive.
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I don’t see anyone being condescending - some of us don’t agree with others - and that’s ok.

make your case & stand by your opinion. That’s the nature of a discussion community.

every argument I’ve seen against the week 17 LCG has been “constructive”.

Your claiming otherwise and telling people to “move on” is what’s counterproductive. 

 
Screw the Week 17 championship, it should be a week 21 Fantasy Championship.  If you're not a good enough owner to make adjustments and predict the Super Bowl teams, then you shouldn't be playing fantasy.

 
Deamon said:
I hate arguments like this.  That just say "it's different, learn to adjust".  It DIRECTLY punishes GOOD fantasy players.  Saying "Good fantasy players should learn to adjust" is so wrong on so many levels.  I like leagues that reward good fantasy play.  If the final was "only start kickers", I would not say that smart, good owners should draft 5 kickers and be watching them closely all year.
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It sounds like these kind of leagues may not be for you. Perhaps you should avoid playing in them. 

 
Deamon said:
Screw the Week 17 championship, it should be a week 21 Fantasy Championship.  If you're not a good enough owner to make adjustments and predict the Super Bowl teams, then you shouldn't be playing fantasy.
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If that's how the league wants to set it up, then yes, you should probably avoid grabbing players from lousy teams and during the season you should probably adjust your roster as the season progresses. 

Week 17 championships have all NFL teams still playing though, so your comparison is a bit over the top.

 
We've been doing Week 17 Championships since the league was established.  We are a bit different though because we have 28 teams split into two 14 team leagues.  Hold two drafts so the winners from each side play in the final and could have similar players which cancel each other out.

Its really not as big a deal as many make it out to be.  For those teams who sit players during Week 17, there are viable options and your opponent is most likely in a similar situation.

 
Bad_Mo said:
 We are a bit different though because we have 28 teams split into two 14 team leagues.  Hold two drafts so the winners from each side play in the final and could have similar players which cancel each other out.
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A bit? 

:jawdrop:

that’s a pretty cool format though, I admit. Never heard of that before. 

I’d still hate the week 17 LCG though - maybe even more since players cancel each other out. 

Its really not as big a deal as many make it out to be.  For those teams who sit players during Week 17, there are viable options and your opponent is most likely in a similar situation.
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I’ve played FFB a looooooong time. One league I was in did a week 17 LCG and it was an extreme impact every single year for 2 straight years. 

The vote to change was unanimous & we’ve never looked back. 

Always cool to read about a different format though. :yes:  

 
Deamon said:
I do.  As should you.  Just trying to help out. 

I think if/when you ever make a final and your guys are on the bench, you'll quickly change your thoughts on this.
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Problem solved! I'm glad to have helped you. 

Why do you assume that's never happened to me? If you've lost a great rb to injuries and didn't get the backup, did you lobby for a 'team rb' position instead of players? If you were the best team but lost to some scrub in week one of the playoffs did you abandon H2H playoffs? Is a loss from a week 17 benching THAT different? If anything, you have slightly more control with a 17 setup than you do those other scenarios. But flukes in those other setups are mostly accepted as just part of the game. 

 
Hilts said:
Problem solved! I'm glad to have helped you. 

Why do you assume that's never happened to me? If you've lost a great rb to injuries and didn't get the backup, did you lobby for a 'team rb' position instead of players? If you were the best team but lost to some scrub in week one of the playoffs did you abandon H2H playoffs? Is a loss from a week 17 benching THAT different? If anything, you have slightly more control with a 17 setup than you do those other scenarios. But flukes in those other setups are mostly accepted as just part of the game. 
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Yes a loss in week 17 is different because you can very easily control it.  Injuries happen and it sucks.  But if you could have a league vote that was "do you want all nfl players to stay healthy and not get hurt this season", I'm pretty sure your league would vote YES.

 
Deamon said:
Screw the Week 17 championship, it should be a week 21 Fantasy Championship.  If you're not a good enough owner to make adjustments and predict the Super Bowl teams, then you shouldn't be playing fantasy.
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I'm actually in a league that does that.  Can be pretty frustrating, but it's also a fun change of pace from my more traditional leagues. :shrug:  

 
Hilts said:
Yes, that's exactly how it goes. Great work. You're much sharper than you let on. 
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Well in one where fantasy playoffs are during nfl playoffs thats how it would go.  You just bashed that format yourself though, so not sure where you're going with this.  I can see why you're getting defensive but no need to be.  You'll graduate to a big boy league one of these days.  Good luck this year.

 
Deamon said:
Well in one where fantasy playoffs are during nfl playoffs thats how it would go.  You just bashed that format yourself though, so not sure where you're going with this.  I can see why you're getting defensive but no need to be.  You'll graduate to a big boy league one of these days.  Good luck this year.
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That's not how it would go in your unique hypothetical. 

Can you point where I bashed it? You seem to be confused on now a second issue. Perhaps we should stick to the matter at hand as you're having enough difficulty as it is. 

 
Hilts said:
That's not how it would go in your unique hypothetical. 

Can you point where I bashed it? You seem to be confused on now a second issue. Perhaps we should stick to the matter at hand as you're having enough difficulty as it is. 
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What unique hypothetical?  Ignoratio mentioned his league did that so I was curiously asking him the value of someone like DJ in a league where you know for sure he will not be available for your fantasy playoff matchups (Unless you think Arizona is making the playoffs this year).  I think it was a fair question for him.

I don't think I'm having a tough time with this.  You're in the vast minority of people who support week 17 finals.  At the end of the day it rewards bad fantasy players.  Pulling names out of a hat is also a unique way to draft, but it doesn't mean it's good.  I guess I shouldn't say one is "better" than the other, but instead should say that week 17 leagues reward inexperienced and poor fantasy players and only hurt those who end up with studs on their team (who may be benched week 17) and very good rosters to get them to the finals.

 
Deamon said:
Crazy.  So reg season is pretty irrelevant?  David Johnson goes in round 10?
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Nah, regular season still important obviously, and studs are studs.  You have to get to the playoffs before worrying about who will play for you in the playoffs so someone like DJ still goes early (it's also a keeper league so generally a guy like him is kept anyway).  As the season progresses the better teams start making trades / free agency moves to try to acquire playoff-bound players, but it's pretty typical that no one starts a full lineup in the playoffs, especially past the first round.  

 
Deamon said:
What unique hypothetical?  Ignoratio mentioned his league did that so I was curiously asking him the value of someone like DJ in a league where you know for sure he will not be available for your fantasy playoff matchups (Unless you think Arizona is making the playoffs this year).  I think it was a fair question for him.

I don't think I'm having a tough time with this.  You're in the vast minority of people who support week 17 finals.  At the end of the day it rewards bad fantasy players.  Pulling names out of a hat is also a unique way to draft, but it doesn't mean it's good.  I guess I shouldn't say one is "better" than the other, but instead should say that week 17 leagues reward inexperienced and poor fantasy players and only hurt those who end up with studs on their team (who may be benched week 17) and very good rosters to get them to the finals.
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I'll admit I'm wrong here. I read his comment as he plays in week 17, but after reading it again it's clear I misinterpreted what he was saying. My apologies. But studs are still studs. You need to get to the playoffs before you worry about winning them. 

Week 17 championships don't favor lousy players. Lousy players don't make it to the playoffs in most week 16 championships, so why would they make it to the finals in week 17 championships? Sure, you get the occasional taco to stumble in and pull off a few flukes, but usually the winner is a good owner who paid attention and got a bit of luck. That holds true for week 16 and week 17 finals.

 
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I should say I'm generally in the camp that believes it doesn't matter what the rules are, as long as everyone knows the rules ahead of time it's fair game, and often the weirder the rules the more of an edge there is to exploit.  But I'm not a fan of week 17 championships, I don't think there's a very compelling reason to do that as opposed to week 16.  It adds little but comes with significant potential downside imo. 

 
Hilts said:
Week 17 championships are like any other league. Which is to say you need to adjust your strategy based on your league settings. Week 17 leagues are fine. They require you to approach your depth or mid-season trades a bit differently, but they're fine. The hate they get is overblown. It's not my preferred setup but I'm in one but it's not the nightmare it used to be. 
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You can't simply adjust your strategy when your skill players are locked up on teams that are 3 games up in their division and your opponent in Week 17 has players that are on a team fighting for wildcard spot.      Legitimate leagues don't put the championship in NFL Week 17. 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
A bit? 

:jawdrop:

that’s a pretty cool format though, I admit. Never heard of that before. 

I’d still hate the week 17 LCG though - maybe even more since players cancel each other out. 

I’ve played FFB a looooooong time. One league I was in did a week 17 LCG and it was an extreme impact every single year for 2 straight years. 

The vote to change was unanimous & we’ve never looked back. 

Always cool to read about a different format though. :yes:  
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Given the number of teams, the prizes are substantial so if you make it to the finals, you're guaranteed at least $750.  Winner gets $2,000 so both teams are happy.

 
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
I should say I'm generally in the camp that believes it doesn't matter what the rules are, as long as everyone knows the rules ahead of time it's fair game, and often the weirder the rules the more of an edge there is to exploit.  But I'm not a fan of week 17 championships, I don't think there's a very compelling reason to do that as opposed to week 16.  It adds little but comes with significant potential downside imo. 
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Mods: Can we get a mic-drop smiley? I'm going to start posting it every time Ignoratio weighs in on a thread.  :thumbup:

 
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
I should say I'm generally in the camp that believes it doesn't matter what the rules are, as long as everyone knows the rules ahead of time it's fair game, and often the weirder the rules the more of an edge there is to exploit.  But I'm not a fan of week 17 championships, I don't think there's a very compelling reason to do that as opposed to week 16.  It adds little but comes with significant potential downside imo. 
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Fair game, sure, but there's no doubt some rules and settings allow the cream rise to the top while other rules are clearly parity mechanisms (such as weekly resetting waiver wire priority :X ). However, settings like week 17 playoffs merely introduce randomness. With a reasonable trading deadline, there really isn't a way to accurately prepare for week 17 sits. Even if there was, there's no way to replace a 2017 Gurley. You can guess correctly before the trade deadline and do everything right and still not replace those points. 

 
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