What is germane to this specific discussion is your second sentence. That is what I'm interested in. We'll leave it at that.
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Undocumented Immigrant Thread (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
In your opinion.
In other people's opinion what the President says matters. And it matters when he tries to gin up anger and hatred against people.
Mile High
Footballguy
I posted a few quotes yesterday that pointed out Trump was just political grandstanding with his immigration talk over the past few days.
timschochet
Footballguy
I have no qualms discussing how my people got here. On both sides of my family they broke the law getting here.
On my mother’s side my great grandfather was drafted into the Tsar’s army. This was the equivalent, for a Jew, of 20 years of hard labor, so he fled the Pale in the middle of the night, crossed several borders into Germany, and with forged papers got himself aboard a ship headed to Ellis Island. He ended up in St Louis.
My grandparents on my fathers side were Holocaust survivors. At the end of the war they found themselves in Vienna, but unfortunately in the Soviet sector (like Berlin, Vienna was divided into 4 sections in 1945.) Refugees who attempted to leave were shot, but my grandparents managed to bribe a Russian guard and with false papers snuck into the American sector. They arrived here in Long Beach in 1950.
So on both sides I am the proud descendant of undocumented immigrants, whom some would call “illegal”. I am very lucky they were so brave.
On my mother’s side my great grandfather was drafted into the Tsar’s army. This was the equivalent, for a Jew, of 20 years of hard labor, so he fled the Pale in the middle of the night, crossed several borders into Germany, and with forged papers got himself aboard a ship headed to Ellis Island. He ended up in St Louis.
My grandparents on my fathers side were Holocaust survivors. At the end of the war they found themselves in Vienna, but unfortunately in the Soviet sector (like Berlin, Vienna was divided into 4 sections in 1945.) Refugees who attempted to leave were shot, but my grandparents managed to bribe a Russian guard and with false papers snuck into the American sector. They arrived here in Long Beach in 1950.
So on both sides I am the proud descendant of undocumented immigrants, whom some would call “illegal”. I am very lucky they were so brave.
Mile High
Footballguy
As long as he does this, divide the country we are no longer great. America is greater when it's United, his MAGA is just a campaign slogan, he doesn't practice it.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Depending on your state this may still be possible, though unlikely, and increasingly so. The courts are not big on jailing the indigent. It use to be the case that failure to pay was contempt of court or a violation of probation and a suspended sentence and courts had charts to cure the contempt, standard rates so to speak, say $50 per day. The jurisdictions are rapidly rejecting that practice. Still possible in some, however, just not the prevailing practice anymore.
The practice of defendants choosing jail over a fine was common when I started practicing. In my state even issuing warrants upon non-payment is tricky, but no jail. Now the fine goes to a civil judgment and a garnishment.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Sort of interested to see if Mexico retaliates by seizing vacation homes and deporting the owners.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
IMO the black story in America post slavery is an immigration story though. It's pretty well documented that there was a mass migration from rural America and into the cities. It's obviously sideways because of the way that they arrived in America but the tale is similar. Reaction by working class whites to their arrival to challenge them for jobs and living space was severe. This went along for quite a while also and also overlapped key immigration eras in the US. Now why blacks have an especially horrific special role in American hatred as opposed to Irish and Sicilians and maybe others who suffered discrimination, I'm not sure anyone will ever figure that out.
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
I believe for the non-white supremacists among us it is a combination of things, including:
First, being unwilling to admit even to ourselves the horror and atrocities that our forefathers visited on an entire people.
Second, the knowledge that if it had been done to us, at some point in the generations we would probably come up with a reason and method to wipe the former slaveowner people off the face of the earth.
A mixture of shame many people are unwilling to face and uneasy fear.
badmojo1006
Footballguy
It just astounds me that Trump supporters are OK with his lying. If he lies so much, how do you know when he is telling the truth?
Who said I was a Trump supporter? Who said I was "OK" with his lying/hyperbole?
The way Trump communicates makes it more difficult to get to the underlying facts of a situation. Oh well. He's not changing anytime soon.
Either I can filter it unemotionally...or constantly obsess about it to no productive end and take topics way off track like most people in here.
KCitons
Footballguy
Where in my post did I say black? I said slaves. My comment was is in regards to those that want to ask, "how did your ancestors get here?" As if everyone choose to come here by their own free will. Everyone has a story. Some are good, some not so good.
KCitons
Footballguy
Which may be why we are seeing a lack of accountability. Commit a crime, receive a fine. Can't pay the fine, we'll garnish your none existent salary. Seems like there's limited downside to breaking the law.
timschochet
Footballguy
badmojo1006
Footballguy
That just does not make sense. Yes I am angry because you can never tell when Trump is lying or telling the truth. The way I see it, you are saying
Trump is Trump and we may not be able to tell what is really going on. And you even admitted it is more difficult to get to the truth with Trump.Because that is the issue. Trumps lying.
The topic of the thread is ICE deportation.That just does not make sense. Yes I am angry because you can never tell when Trump is lying or telling the truth. The way I see it, you are saying
Because that is the issue. Trumps lying.
The fact of ICE deportation is that approx. 2000 undocumented immigrants whose deportation orders have been finalized by judges are being deported.
The fact is that ICE is doing their job carrying out laws where due process was followed.
The rest is noise.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I think I see your point. No I wouldn't have the temerity or really stupidity of asking a black person literally that question. I was just saying that there was some shared immigrant experience post-slavery, that's all. One story that comes to mind is Jackie Robinson's mother, who living in sharecropper hell in Georgia, her husband having disappeared (who knows how or why), just got on a train and left for California with her son, who became a legend. I don't know what immigrants must really go through, but they gave up everything, said good bye to everything and everyone they ever knew, and just leaped. And America somewhere somehow offered them a new life. And I think we do that by being a beacon, we have tremendous, huge amounts of goodwill in the world, and we should not squander that. We're nuts if we do.
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Mile High
Footballguy
Maybe. Now that they have been warned who knows. This sounds more like a setup of Sanctuary cities by a conman, not looking for results, but political soundbites.
Potentially. Who knows what might be said in the briefing 10 minutes before giving the go-ahead...
Mile High
Footballguy
Trump dismissed the opposition on Saturday, saying they were mostly "high crime" cities.
"Well some cities are going to fight it. But if you notice they're generally high crime cities, if you look at Chicago they're fighting it. If you look at other cities they're fighting it. Many of those cities are high crime cities and they're sanctuary cities," he said.
Jackstraw
Footballguy
I would hardly call Denver a high crime city...
From an execution standpoint it will have to be very, very clean or could become a Vietnam-like quagmire and Trump will take a massive political hit. Maybe even Waterloo.
KCitons
Footballguy
You don't state a time period. So, I would guess it fluctuated.
Also, it's irrelevant to the question "How did your family get here". It makes the assumption that all our ancestors were like yours where they fled a country to make a better life for themselves. You want to make the comparison that all illegal immigrants broke laws to come to this country. And therefore all current immigrants should do the same thing. Where do you draw the line? What if your grandfather stole to make the journey? Or killed someone to make his escape? Would breaking those laws now become an acceptable things for current immigrants?
KCitons
Footballguy
The question you asked didn't clarify race. It simply asked "how did your family get here?"SaintsInDome2006 said:
I agree with the last sentence. I don't however believe that we should forgo laws to achieve it. As someone mentioned up thread, we are a melting pot. But, if a large percentage of the immigrants are from South and Central America, are we really a melting pot? Shouldn't the same opportunities be afforded to those from Europe, Asia, Africa, etc? Because, I don't see that they are.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Are you suggesting Europeans have insufficient opportunities to come here compared to Central Americans?
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
Denver is "high crime" compared to Trump's rural base, but so are all 10 cities on Trump's deportation list.PhantomJB said:
But the fact is that Denver and Los Angeles (two of the cities which refused to assist with the deportations) have relatively low violent crime rates among major U.S. cities:
- Baltimore (3rd)
- New Orleans (15th)
- Chicago (17th)
- Houston (18th)
- Atlanta (27th)
- Los Angeles (32nd)
- Miami (36th)
- San Francisco (37th)
- Denver (41st)
- New York (59th)
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timschochet
Footballguy
President Trump just announced a “delay” to the Ice raids to give the lawmakers a “chance to work something out.”
Lol
Lol
timschochet
Footballguy
Anyone else seeing a pattern here? Shuts down the government to get wall funding, then lifts the shutdown, calls it a victory. Threatens tariffs against Mexico, changes his mind, calls it a victory. Orders an attack on Iran, changes his mind, calls it a victory. Orders ICE to make a deportation raid, changes his mind, calls it a victory.
Quite the decisive guy we’ve got in charge...
Quite the decisive guy we’ve got in charge...
KCitons
Footballguy
I'm suggesting all people, from places other than North and South America, have a harder time walking across the U.S. border. Due you disagree?
HellToupee
Footballguy
Maybe he should bomb an aspirin factory or eviscerate “wedding party” in the Middle East . Would that make you happy
I don't think it's like that. Most definitely if you have a pattern of not following through on your threats...at some point it significantly weakens your negotiating position because it is so transparent.
[scooter]
Footballguy
Many of us have been pointing out this pattern for years. Trump creates conflicts for the sole purpose of "solving" them, thereby creating the illusion that he is the only person worthy of your trust and admiration. It's actually the same tactic that domestic abusers use to gain control over their partners, except that Trump is doing it on a global scale.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
[scooter]
Footballguy
Mario Kart
Footballguy
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I feel about this the same way I feel about everything on this and that is: follow the law, and that happens to be the 1965 INA. I think when the allotment method was created the idea was that immigration had been mostly Euro so the rules at the time were seen as cementing what were essentially seen as ‘gains’ of over a century. Look at the rules but something I find fascinating iirc is that there’s a cap of 12% immigration coming from Mexico. How they arrived at that I have no idea. And the idea of the lottery was specifically at the same time to end the old quotas. I also don’t know if we should be central planning that we want engineers, or we want laborers, or we want doctors, or whatever. It should be first come first serve IMO but make sure everyone from everywhere at least gets a chance.
Mile High
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Why would Europeans and Africans need to walk across our border?
As to your other point, were we not a melting pot up until 1970 or so? Through 1969 something like 90% of US immigrants in history were European.
KCitons
Footballguy
How is it first come first served if it's easier for someone from Mexico can walk to asylum and someone from Sudan has to walk across the border to Egypt and hope they can fly to the U.S. for asylum. It doesn't matter if you set a cap or limit, it's comes down to geography.
I'm also wondering what this great "melting pot" will look like in the future if more and more of the immigrant population is from the Central and South America? Is that really whats best for diversity of this country?
Mile High
Footballguy
Is our tax money paying for this Lawyer? She could barely put together a coherent sentence.
KCitons
Footballguy
What do you think changed around that time?
How else would someone from those areas get to the U.S.? I worked with two guys the left Sudan. One about 10 years ago, he had to sneak into Egypt before he could get to the U.S. He left his family behind. Sadly, he returned to Sudan about a year ago, because his mother was dying. He was suppose to come back after three months. I never heard from him again.
My point is that, while it's difficult to walk from Central America, it can be done. Many people in Africa would like that opportunity. Unfortunately, they have to make a dangerous walk to neighboring country and then find the financial resources to fly to the U.S.
I didn't say it was "all up to him" - but he is supposed to lead on his agenda - and he is not leading. He is circumventing the hard work of leadinglod001 said:Really? It's all up to him? You do realize that the idiots in congress that are the ones that need to do the work and are not. They couldn't get it done in 2007 either. Go read up on the 2007 one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Immigration_Reform_Act_of_2007
timschochet
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
To be perfectly honest, Africans generally go to Europe. And there are millions of Africans living undocumented in Europe.
What changed starting in the mid to late 60s? The USA started destabilizing Central and South American Countries, causing people to flee their homes and Europe formed and solidified the EU into a dominant economic and human rights force in that area of the world.
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
Why do you think they go to Europe? Do you think, if given the choice, they would rather come to the U.S.?
The destabilizing those areas didn't change things in Europe. Would it be reasonable to think that it's much more difficult to move from one country to the next since the late 60's?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Not within Europe it isn’t, for sure. That’s one of the major benefits of the EU (you cross posted with my edit). So why come here?
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Well, sort of.
They were drunken Irish, dirty Italians, smelly French, dirtbag Scotch-Irish, humorless Germans to say nothing of the weirdo religious fanatics like Quakers, Shakers, Methodist, Anabaptists, Lutherens and the like.
The idea that our immigrants used to be more respectable and more easily assimilated is hysterical.
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KCitons
Footballguy
I'm not sure I understand you question? For one, I'm a white male. So, there are a lot of things that I can't even begin to relate to that could have an effect on where I live. I also don't know what it's like to live in Wales.
My question was about a male living in Sudan. I'm drawing on my personal conversations. I would think it would have been easier for him to go to Wales, than to come to America.
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