timschochet
Footballguy
Except that for the vast majority of people who complain about undocumented immigrants, it’s more like you heard a rumor that they might be trespassing in some neighboring state.
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Undocumented Immigrant Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
If you aren't going to keep up, at least bother someone else with this purposefully obtuse schtick
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
Oh the same Trump admin that deports US citizens including military vets? Support our troops amirght?
So freaking disgusting.
timschochet
Footballguy
They’re not criminals. They’re not trespassing. They’re not shoplifting. They’re not trying to shoplift. The only thing they broke coming here was a misdemeanor.
Here is a better analogy: when somebody gets caught jaywalking and is given a ticket (also a misdemeanor) does the police officer then force the person to return to the other side of the street?
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
Herb
Footballguy
And once again, the Trump administration manages to take what would seem like a non-controversial action (deporting illegal immigrants that have been court ordered to leave but refused) and turned it into a ham-fisted authoriatarian maneuver (deporting people they aren't actually "looking for").
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Trespass.
And there are a number of scenarios where equitable resolution of a dispute allows for someone to continue to engage in behavior that began as trespass. I don’t think they’re really analogous, but they happen.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I think jaywalking is usually a violation. Like staying in the country beyond one’s visa.
KCitons
Footballguy
90% of the people I caught shoplifting were charged with a misdemeanor.
A person can be issued a criminal trespass notice for many reasons. Usually, it's due to a crime being committed. If they return to the that location, they can be charged with criminal trespassing. This is exactly the same as what is happening with these immigrants. They entered the country illegally (which initiated the equivalent of a criminal trespass notice). They then stayed here without fulfilling the requirements needed. Now they are being charged with the equivalent of criminal trespassing. For which, the penalty is deportation.
KCitons
Footballguy
You jump into the conversation that Tim and I were having, then tell me to bother someone else. That's some good schtick.
I didn't jump into anything. I replied to Tim's post. I have no interest in your silly games.
That's some good schtick.
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
How many illegals are in our country right now?
boots11234
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
I consider myself an "aware" liberal. So I am trying to follow this and educate myself as I really did not until. lately. Tim you seem to know quite a bit more about this topic than I. So I google this and find the NY Post article. Are these number accurate. If so why was this not a big story years ago?
Since he announced his candidacy, President Trump has vowed to deport illegal aliens.
But the feds say that Trump has fallen far short of President Barack Obama when it comes to deporting illegals even as the number of people caught at the border has soared on Trump’s watch, a new report said Friday.
Immigration and Customs Enforcement has deported more illegal immigrants this fiscal year than any full fiscal year of Trump’s presidency, but has yet to come close to Obama’s deportation record, according to new internal Department of Homeland Security figures published Friday by Axios.
Under the Obama administration, ICE deported more than 385,000 illegals each year in fiscal years 2009 through 2011, and hit a high of 409,849 in fiscal 2012 — prompting critics to dub Trump’s predecessor “the deporter in chief.” The numbers then dropped to below 250,000 in fiscal years 2015 and 2016.
Under Trump, by comparison, ICE deportations dropped to 226,119 in fiscal 2017, then inched up to over 250,000 in fiscal 2018 and hit a Trump administration high of 282,242 this fiscal year, as of June, the website reported.
And while deportations have dropped, the number of illegal immigrants crossing the border, mostly Central American families seeking asylum in the US, has soared to levels not seen in a decade — as the president’s promise to build a wall remains unfulfilled and border workers are overwhelmed by the crisis.
In May, more than 130,000 people were apprehended at the border, compared to fewer than 100,000 in May, and the figures are expected to keep rising as the summer weather kicks in, CBP has said.
timschochet
Footballguy
It’s not a big story because the people who care about this issue (those who believe that undocumented immigration should be curtailed and that this is a primary concern) feel for the most part that Trump is fighting for them. So what if he fails? At least he’s on their side. You won’t change their minds with facts, IMO, because it’s an emotional bond.
boots11234
Footballguy
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
This is where I have a problem with the news media and what they feed us. If the deportation of illegal aliens was much more under Obama than trump that it really does not matter that Trump is fighting for them. That is just noise. Trump is a blowhard and can say anything he wants but the numbers don`t lie.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Summer Wheat alluded to this further up. It's kind of funny actually. Trump tells his supporters he will be deporting "millions" "quickly", they celebrate that, Trump opponents decry it, but meanwhile Trump's own administration says he basically made it up... and this is a standard exercise (by the sound of it). And yes apparently Trump has been behind Obama's pace in some years.... which raises why Trump supporters support a guy who apparently does less than Obama on a point they seem to care about. This administration is constantly wrapped up in this kind of confusion.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
There's a Harvard study that some Trump supporters like to cite because it says a large amount of press on Trump is negative (shocker) but what it really says is that the media lets Trump set the news agenda. So Trump says something outrageous - deporting millions and pronto y'all - which is yeah pretty outrageous because if true we'd look like a dictatorship in action and the president himself just said that was happening - but the press treats it as reality and off we go. - It's a weird situation because everything in our history says the president makes policy and says real things but in this particular situation it creates a vicious cycle of controversy.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Serious question: why does that matter?
I have never bought the narrative that "your ancestors came here illegally many generations ago, so it is hypocritical for you to be against others coming here illegally now." Circumstances change.
For the record, I am not a fan of the way Trump is handling all of this (families getting separated after crossing the border is awful), but this idea that we should just let any and everyone come here is not one I agree with, and I think stronger borders are needed.
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Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Totally agree. Instead of focusing on what Trump says the media should call him out and report "Obama did more fighting illegal immigration than Trump" If you watch CNN you would think ICE was just created in 2016. They are doing now what they have always done..actually a little less but it is covered more. Strange phenomenon.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I'm just asking Boots to reflect on it and I find it personally interesting.
I think I almost entirely avoid accusing people and politicians of hypocrisy here. I don't think people should stop believing what they believe because they may have called for something else somewhere else. I don't ask people to turn off their values, I just want to hear what those values are. I just personally in this situation feel that things that are said now about immigrants were said way back when when our forbears came, I think the people coming are decent just like our people typically were, and I don't think everyone's immigration story was one of checking in through proper channels and paperwork. Just as an example I find Trump's family interesting - and let's say not exactly a gleaming story of immigration - and here he is president of the US.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I should have worded my post better. I was not accusing of you of the narrative I put in quotes; it's just a narrative I often see spun when one starts down the "your ancestors came here illegally" road.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I also think it's interesting that we have had two successive presidents who had a parent who came to this country from somewhere else. Obama's father came to the US from Kenya - Hawaii and Mass, though he did not become a citizen - and Trump's mother came here to work as a domestic servant from Scotland. He's a very recent immigration story on the other side as his grandfather also was an immigrant. This is 2 presidents in a row where the family story is very much recently arrived. I might be wrong but the closest comp before that was Chester Arthur whose father was born in Ireland.
KCitons
Footballguy
Asking someone how their ancestors came here also has a the opportunity to backfire. What if their ancestors were slaves? I get that the comment is trying to make people think about the good that came from their ancestors (or other's). But, to continue to do something just because that's what has been done before, can be dangerous.
Atomic Punk
Footballguy
Canadian here who likes to watch you Americans debate these important issues ... I would like to commend the posters who have tried to make their points over the last few days without getting personal. With maybe two exceptions, all have been civil and sincerely tried to have an adult conversation on a very difficult subject. Compared to the moderation thread, you all deserve kudos.
boots11234
Footballguy
See this is wrong and your side does it all the time. Also throwing in the racialist angle for good measure. I’m not against ANY immigration, i (and I’m guessin most Trump supporters) are against Illigal immigration. And please don’t say ‘Well they are seeking asylum ‘ either as we all know that’s BS and being used because both sides refuse to address this problem for different reasons.
Come here legally and I will welcome you. I just don’t think it’s fair for people on the other side of the world who cannot run across the border to have to wait while others don’t.
We fought for our freedom in America and created the best country in the world perhaps some of these people fleeing this country could try to do the same.
KCitons
Footballguy
Is the playing field the same for a person from El Salvador and a person from Sudan? They both want to ask for asylum, but only one can walk to the U.S. border.
Really? It's all up to him? You do realize that the idiots in congress that are the ones that need to do the work and are not. They couldn't get it done in 2007 either. Go read up on the 2007 one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Immigration_Reform_Act_of_2007
boots11234
Footballguy
Oh what a surprise. Even more emotional and irrational outbursts at anything Trump does.
The 2,000 or so undocumented immigrants have received final deportation orders from a judge in an Immigration Court.
ICE is doing their job as per our laws.
Obama probably wouldn't have made enforcement of these laws a priority. Trump is. Win the next election and you can go back to lax enforcement.
Nothing to see here.
The 2,000 or so undocumented immigrants have received final deportation orders from a judge in an Immigration Court.
ICE is doing their job as per our laws.
Obama probably wouldn't have made enforcement of these laws a priority. Trump is. Win the next election and you can go back to lax enforcement.
Nothing to see here.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
This is somewhat true. The people who legally immigrated to the USA from India, Japan and Lebanon who I work with in the auto industry despise illegals and make no bones about it as they entered through legal means and some of their family had to wait to enter. Much more than the average American, and they talk about it much more.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I know the internet is hard to talk through so I don't want this to seem challenging, but does anyone really keep their families' paperwork on how they got here?
Again it's not a matter of 'hypocrisy' (seriously I'm not saying that) it's a question of the assumption that everyone here got here "legitimately". Trump's grandfather left Germany, came to the US, left the US, came back to the US, left the US, then was declared a criminal in Germany, then came back to the US. His mother had at least one child here before she became a citizen.
I'm an "enforce the law" guy, bottom line, what gets me are the justifications and the rah-rah'ing by some Trump supporters for this "roundup" stuff when they ought to dig into their own family history and imagine that being done to their great-great-grandpappy or the like. But no of course not they were great people who had all their t's and i's in order, I'm sure.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Because that's what drives this controversy, a President who lies as a matter of policy.
And there aren't already millions of posts complaining about the exact same thing? Like I said, nothing new to see here.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Ha, well except there is. You're like what's all the hubbub, bub? And the President just evoked armed forces rooting out "millions" from hearth and wheel. Gosh what are all these libs mad about?
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Not really. Are you mad about what is actually happening? Or are you mad about Trump being Trump?
The former is what I'm interested in learning more about...the latter has been documented (no pun intended) ad nauseum.
timschochet
Footballguy
Hey boots, I want to commend you for this post, seriously. It’s a legitimate point of view. I strongly disagree with it, but it’s legitimate and I know it’s heartfelt and there are millions of Americans who share your viewpoint. Some of the things you have written on this subject I cannot respect; this one I do.
Here is my main point of disagreement with you, from which everything else stems: we did not fight for our freedom; if the Founders had done so America would be no different from hundreds of other countries. What makes America exceptional and as you wrote, the best country in the world is that the Founders fought for freedom as a universal principle, and an integral part of that principle is the idea that America must serve as a refuge for all those who seek freedom and a new life. If we eliminate that aspect of who we are then we are no longer the nation our Founders intended, and we lose our exceptionalism.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I think Trump being Trump means that we have a president that causes anger and division like this on purpose.
And no I have no problem with deportation as a matter of law and standard practice.
I don't think the former is irrelevant because there is a lot of false perception like we are seeing here so the people can't deal with it. Trump has evoked racial stereotypes (yes), he has implemented cruel detention policies, he has broken the law or sought to do it in a number of ways especially relating to asylum and legal crossings. And right now as a matter of practice he is a one man propaganda machine stoking anger and xenophobia in his supporters and that may affect future policy that does seek to do the things he claimed. so, to me, it's of a piece.
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