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As another student dies, it’s time to ban fraternity/sorority hazing. It’s stupid and dangerous. (1 Viewer)

Did thi kind of thing always occur or have we, as culture, gotten stupider about dangerous activities or do we have less respect for the dignity and well being of our peers?

 
Nationwide Hazing Laws

44 states have some kind of law on the books. Hazing that results in injury or death is a felony in ten states.

(it’s unclear to me why this needs a separate statutory regulation....don’t we already have laws that would deal with it?)

@timschochet - what exactly are you proposing?

We did not haze pledges at the state university I attended in Michigan - directional D-1 FBS school with a “party school” reputation, used to always make Playboy magazines Top Twenty. But we used to do lots of stupid things that don’t exist anymore.

We used to grab girls and pass them up the stands at the football games. It was as awful as it sounds - a couple guys would grab a (usually petite) girl by the arms & legs, toss her into the crowd, and she would crowd surf all the way to the top of the stadium. That kind of stuff is the very definition of rape culture, and thankfully has ceased to exist.

I thought for the most part hazing was already a thing of the past?

 
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From wikipedia: "There has been at least one university hazing death each year from 1969 to 2017. According to Franklin College journalism professor Hank Nuwer, over 200 university hazing deaths have occurred since 1838, with 40 deaths between 2007 and 2017 alone. Alcohol poisoning is the biggest cause of death."

There's a  hazing law in Florida, but due to a 2017 death at FSU, in which the frat brothers waiting too long to call 911 (they were more worried about getting into trouble),the law may be revised to offer immunity to the first person who reports the hazing: https://news.wfsu.org/post/parents-fsu-hazing-pledge-andrew-coffey-urge-florida-lawmakers-toughen-state-hazing-law

 
Good Posting Judge said:
Probably should just shut down fraternities tbh.
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We should also then shut down high school and college sports if this is about hazing tbh.  Just ridiculous.  

You put a group of young rowdy people together and dumb stuff happens.  No matter what you do they will continue to do dumb stuff and people will get hurt and die.  

 
BobbyLayne said:
Nationwide Hazing Laws

44 states have some kind of law on the books. Hazing that results in injury or death is a felony in ten states.

(it’s unclear to me why this needs a separate statutory regulation....don’t we already have laws that would deal with it?)

@timschochet - what exactly are you proposing?

We did not haze pledges at the state university I attended in Michigan - directional D-1 FBS school with a “party school” reputation, used to always make Playboy magazines Top Twenty. But we used to do lots of stupid things that don’t exist anymore.

We used to grab girls and pass them up the stands at the football games. It was as awful as it sounds - a couple guys would grab a (usually petite) girl by the arms & legs, toss her into the crowd, and she would crowd surf all the way to the top of the stadium. That kind of stuff is the very definition of rape culture, and thankfully has ceased to exist.

I thought for the most part hazing was already a thing of the past?
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I don’t know what I’m proposing. I want it illegal everywhere and tough punishment. But I don’t know what that should be. 

 
Uh, what shuke said. There is technically no hazing allowed nearly anywhere so far as I can ascertain.

I was in a fraternity that got booted off campus for its moronic hazing, hazing I tried (along with others) to stop at our chapter. Now they have no house anymore during homecoming, school, etc. No legacies, no families, no tangible nostalgia.

Good job, fellas, for listening to me and a few others who warned you that hazing was on the outs and would be dealt with seriously by the university. Glad you kept your commitment and hell night. Now you have nothing. 

eta* This really sets the bar for a blowhard tim "I-don't-know-anything-about-my-own-OP" thread. Sheesh. 

 
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bigbottom said:
When you say “ALL hazing” what precisely do you mean?  Is requiring someone to run laps or do push-ups if he messes something up a form of hazing that you would propose making illegal?
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I don’t know. I probably should have thought about it more. The story really bothered me. 

 
timschochet said:
I don’t know. I probably should have thought about it more. The story really bothered me. 
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Hazing deaths are tragic, no doubt. But it’s really difficult to police in as broad-based a manner as you had initially suggested, particularly when there are things that would be considered hazing that happen all the time in sports, the military, and with kids in college even outside the fraternity/sorority environment. Candidly, I would be happy if we could just get rid of any form of forced or coerced alcohol consumption. Alcohol-related hazing is the biggest cause of hazing death by a huge margin I believe. I say let’s focus on that. 

 
bigbottom said:
Hazing deaths are tragic, no doubt. But it’s really difficult to police in as broad-based a manner as you had initially suggested, particularly when there are things that would be considered hazing that happen all the time in sports, the military, and with kids in college even outside the fraternity/sorority environment. Candidly, I would be happy if we could just get rid of any form of forced or coerced alcohol consumption. Alcohol-related hazing is the biggest cause of hazing death by a huge margin I believe. I say let’s focus on that. 
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I totally agree with this. The old stories of locking kids in trunks with bottles is just flat ridiculous and tragic. Coerced consumption is nothing short of ownership. 

 
bigbottom said:
Hazing deaths are tragic, no doubt. But it’s really difficult to police in as broad-based a manner as you had initially suggested, particularly when there are things that would be considered hazing that happen all the time in sports, the military, and with kids in college even outside the fraternity/sorority environment. Candidly, I would be happy if we could just get rid of any form of forced or coerced alcohol consumption. Alcohol-related hazing is the biggest cause of hazing death by a huge margin I believe. I say let’s focus on that. 
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If I beat you soundly in caps, is that hazing?

 
People know the risks when they sky dive, ride a bull, play football, box, NASCAR,  join the military, MMA,  join law enforcement, join a fraternity.  If they aren't prepared to handle, deal, accept those risks, then don't get involved.

I never hit the streets at 3am for any reason. Who is out at that time?  Simply common sense. 

Anywhere young people gather stupid stuff will happen, some dangerous, this is not news.

 
ZenoRazon said:
People know the risks when they sky dive, ride a bull, play football, box, NASCAR,  join the military, MMA,  join law enforcement, join a fraternity.  If they aren't prepared to handle, deal, accept those risks, then don't get involved.

I never hit the streets at 3am for any reason. Who is out at that time?  Simply common sense. 

Anywhere young people gather stupid stuff will happen, some dangerous, this is not news.
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Go back to bed Magoo.

 
bigbottom said:
Hazing deaths are tragic, no doubt. But it’s really difficult to police in as broad-based a manner as you had initially suggested, particularly when there are things that would be considered hazing that happen all the time in sports, the military, and with kids in college even outside the fraternity/sorority environment. Candidly, I would be happy if we could just get rid of any form of forced or coerced alcohol consumption. Alcohol-related hazing is the biggest cause of hazing death by a huge margin I believe. I say let’s focus on that. 
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There was a frat when I was in college that lost their letters and wasn't reconigized as a frat anyone.  Is anyone here dumb enough to think that stopped them from getting together and pledging people?  I'll save the drama, no it didn't stop them.  

 
It was already illegal in the state of New York.  A bit surprised an event which causes an injury is only a misdemeanor though.  Unfortunately, Laws do not completely prevent bad things from happening.  

New York State Penal Law, Chapter 716, Section 1 (effective November 1, 1988)

120.16: Hazing in the first degree
A person is guilty of hazing in the first degree when, in the course of another person's initiation into or affiliation with any organization, he intentionally or recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of physical injury to such other person or a third person and thereby causes such injury.
Hazing in the first degree is a class A misdemeanor.

120.17: Hazing in the second degree
A person is guilty of hazing in the second degree when, in the course of another person's initiation or affiliation with any organization, he intentionally or recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of physical injury to such other person or a third person.
Hazing in the second degree is a violation.

 
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Things like forced alcohol consumption, gauntlet running and the like are hazing.

One of the frats at my alma mater had the pledges carrying around a log and "defending" it against other frat's pledges. This I have no problem with as it can build teamwork and friendship.

 
rockaction said:
I totally agree with this. The old stories of locking kids in trunks with bottles is just flat ridiculous and tragic. Coerced consumption is nothing short of ownership. 
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I think it's stupid too, but because I had to do this as a pledge, we need to make the new pledges do it too. After that, I don't care what happens. 

 
Per the wiki leak posted above, which includes the dataset compiled by Hank Nuwer, alcohol  poisoning is the biggest cause of death in hazing incidents. A proposed law being discussed in Tallahasse would give immunity to the first person to call for medical help when there is a medical crisis resulting from hazing. I'm not sure if it would pass legal muster or would save lives, given the high frequency of alcohol blackouts. 

My youngest daughter went to a top party school, FSU, and during her first semester in college, I received an early morning call from the dorm mother that she was being taken to the ER because she had passed out in the dorm bathroom. When I spoke with her an hour later she said had been released from the ER and was only sleeping in the bathroom because she was locked out of her dorm room. Sure. She grew to dislike the alcohol culture at FSU - people drunk before noon during game day. But she continued to drink heavily at house parties and clubs, as alcohol is cheap and everywhere, not just in the frat culture. 

 
We had "normal hazing".

Freshman had to carry the equipment, get us seeds etc.

Dumb stuff but nothing that would cause death

 
There is virtually no frat culture at UB, which is why this kinda surprised me when this story broke.  There's still a lot missing from this story.

 
Rove! said:
Did thi kind of thing always occur or have we, as culture, gotten stupider about dangerous activities or do we have less respect for the dignity and well being of our peers?
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If anything we've gotten better AT not doing it.

Hazing was way worse in the 80s early 90s imo

 
Guy I kind of was friends with in high school served jail time for being part of a frat that made some kid take 21 shots on his 21st birthday and the kid died. So yeah I agree frat life in general is gross. 

 
IC FBGCav said:
We should also then shut down high school and college sports if this is about hazing tbh.  Just ridiculous.  

You put a group of young rowdy people together and dumb stuff happens.  No matter what you do they will continue to do dumb stuff and people will get hurt and die.  
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Young people do dumb dangerous things (especially drunken college kids) - and it's not always fraternity related.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/fordham-senior-falls-her-death-142703329.html - very sad story here that happened at my son's school. Perhaps no alcohol was involved but at 3:00-4:00 am its seems possible.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
Young people do dumb dangerous things (especially drunken college kids) - and it's not always fraternity related.
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:yes:

We all did dumb ####.  Your parents all did dumb ####.  Our kids are going to do dumb ####.  If they haven't already.

Sure, having laws and rules helps.  But ultimately just hope the smart ones knock the dumb outta themselves without doing something serious then come out better on the other side.

 
rockaction said:
Uh, what shuke said. There is technically no hazing allowed nearly anywhere so far as I can ascertain.

I was in a fraternity that got booted off campus for its moronic hazing, hazing I tried (along with others) to stop at our chapter. Now they have no house anymore during homecoming, school, etc. No legacies, no families, no tangible nostalgia.

Good job, fellas, for listening to me and a few others who warned you that hazing was on the outs and would be dealt with seriously by the university. Glad you kept your commitment and hell night. Now you have nothing. 

eta* This really sets the bar for a blowhard tim "I-don't-know-anything-about-my-own-OP" thread. Sheesh. 
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New around here?

 
bigbottom said:
Hazing deaths are tragic, no doubt. But it’s really difficult to police in as broad-based a manner as you had initially suggested, particularly when there are things that would be considered hazing that happen all the time in sports, the military, and with kids in college even outside the fraternity/sorority environment. Candidly, I would be happy if we could just get rid of any form of forced or coerced alcohol consumption. Alcohol-related hazing is the biggest cause of hazing death by a huge margin I believe. I say let’s focus on that. 
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I think that and prohibiting sleep deprivation as an initiation rite would pretty much cover things.  Bad decisions ensue from sleep deprivation and most of the frats with which I was familiar (I did not pledge or join any myself) had a hazing week where the went to great efforts to deprive their pledges from meaningful sleep.  

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I think that and prohibiting sleep deprivation as an initiation rite would pretty much cover things.  Bad decisions ensue from sleep deprivation and most of the frats with which I was familiar (I did not pledge or join any myself) had a hazing week where the went to great efforts to deprive their pledges from meaningful sleep.  
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Tell us more about the 1970s. ;)

 
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