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SAT will assign a new score that factors in where you live and how much your parents make

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

It is always strikes me that when we discuss these issues we spend far too much time focusing on college level education. The real discrepancy takes place well below that, in primary school and middle school. If we want to resolve inequities in our society (and this seems like a worthwhile goal) that is where we should start. 

It shouldnt strike you. This mindset is how we attack tons of problems. Its kind of like trickle down, but for education, etc. 

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1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:

The more I read about this and the more I read about what has been happening at the elite universities this whole thing makes even less sense.

Schools aren't in need of a better metric for increasing minority enrollment or giving a fairer shake. Minority enrollment has been increasing dramatically for 10 years.

This seems much more like colleges wanting a third party to create a hidden metric so they can try and pretend that they haven't actively discriminated against asian students. 

This quote is based off of a 2009 study.

Quote

a National Study of College Experience led by Espenshade and Radford (2009) showed that a student who self-identifies as Asian will need 140 SAT points higher than whites, 320 SAT points higher than Hispanics, and 450 SAT points higher than African Americans.

That was from 2009 data. Seems universities werent having any trouble accounting for lower scores on SAT's. And Minority enrollment has increased since then. 

Not sure I am following how this additional data will address any of this.  This all seems race related and unless race is taken off the applications, it will continue to be a part of the information collected and those schools who discriminate based on race will continue to do so :oldunsure: 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

It is always strikes me that when we discuss these issues we spend far too much time focusing on college level education. The real discrepancy takes place well below that, in primary school and middle school. If we want to resolve inequities in our society (and this seems like a worthwhile goal) that is where we should start. 

You need to pay closer attention then Tim  ;)

I make this very point ad nauseum to all those who claim that everyone is on equal ground in the race of life around here.  Brought it up in the systemic racism threads, college admissions threads, job threads etc.  It's the same thing every time.  If we do a better job out of the gate with equality of education, these sorts of things wouldn't be as big of an issue.  People want to complain about this perceived obstacle that Johnny has to overcome while ignoring the obstacles he didn't have to overcome that others did to get to the same point.

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10 minutes ago, dgreen said:

Colleges discriminate against Asians?

Asians, females and whites. 

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5 hours ago, dgreen said:

Colleges discriminate against Asians?

Yes and many are currently being sued for it

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The kids that literally bootstrap from an academic standpoint should be rewarded and ironically it’s conservatives that should be leading that charge. Isn’t that what they’re supposed to do, right, try hard and don’t be lazy and you can go to college? Oh you can’t though because it’s too expensive sorry kid. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Grace Under Pressure said:

The kids that literally bootstrap from an academic standpoint should be rewarded and ironically it’s conservatives that should be leading that charge. Isn’t that what they’re supposed to do, right, try hard and don’t be lazy and you can go to college? Oh you can’t though because it’s too expensive sorry kid. 

Having your 1050 sat score count the same as somebody else's 1500 isnt exactly what most people consider bootstrapping. 

Edited by parasaurolophus
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4 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Having your 1050 sat score count the same as somebody else's 1500 isnt exactly what most people consider bootstrapping. 

A kid from a very disadvantaged background STILL scoring high on the SAT is pretty much the epitome of “rising above”.

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5 minutes ago, OrtonToOlsen said:

A kid from a very disadvantaged background STILL scoring high on the SAT is pretty much the epitome of “rising above”.

1050 is high? Isnt that below average at even lower tier UC schools? 

 

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1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:

1050 is high? Isnt that below average at even lower tier UC schools? 

 

That’s not the point I was making.

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10 hours ago, OrtonToOlsen said:
10 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

Having your 1050 sat score count the same as somebody else's 1500 isnt exactly what most people consider bootstrapping. 

A kid from a very disadvantaged background STILL scoring high on the SAT is pretty much the epitome of “rising above”.

 

8 hours ago, OrtonToOlsen said:
10 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

1050 is high? Isnt that below average at even lower tier UC schools? 

 

That’s not the point I was making.

Seemed like that was the point since my post was fairly specific. I didnt just make those numbers up either. That difference in score is from the report I linked earlier.

If you just happened to reply to my post and were just making a general argument, we actually agree. I dont have an issue with some sort of factor calculation for where the student came from. It just can't be as big of a calculation as it has become. 

It is a huge disservice to a student that isnt really qualified for a university to be let in and set up for failure. Graduation rates vary a great deal and there is no way these policies dont play into that. What good is 1.75 years of education at Yale? 

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32 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

 

Seemed like that was the point since my post was fairly specific. I didnt just make those numbers up either. That difference in score is from the report I linked earlier.

If you just happened to reply to my post and were just making a general argument, we actually agree. I dont have an issue with some sort of factor calculation for where the student came from. It just can't be as big of a calculation as it has become

It is a huge disservice to a student that isnt really qualified for a university to be let in and set up for failure. Graduation rates vary a great deal and there is no way these policies dont play into that. What good is 1.75 years of education at Yale? 

It seems like you guys are talking about two completely different things here :oldunsure:

The study you linked was about discrimination against Asians where they have to score 1500 vs an African American scoring a 1050 or white kid  etc.  Tanner was talking about a generality.  To the first bold statement, it's just another piece of data.  It's yet to be determined how heavy an influence it will be and I'm almost certain that influence will vary from one school to the next based on their goals for admission.  I think the second is a valid concern.  If a school is allowing people in that shouldn't be there because of demographic concerns and it's an ultimate net negative, that will be a problem.  Time will tell on this as well.

I think a lot of supposition and assumption have been levied against this new information that has no basis in reality.  It's a lot of prediction of how things could go wrong, which is useful, but it's only useful if you're also looking at what could go right.  Assuming all the bad stuff is going to happen and all the good stuff won't happen and then making an argument based on that view isn't genuine IMO.  NOTE:  I am NOT singling you out here parasaurolophus.  Your post just happens to be the one I am responding to as the thought comes to mind.

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A 2nd one of these threads? Can we merge them?

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Posted (edited)
On 5/16/2019 at 9:33 PM, Gopher State said:

Sounds like socialism policy

You know SAT/college board is a non- profit organization. Do you call out Churches who run soup kitchens or charities who collect toys for kids socialism too? 

Edited by Ilov80s

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Just now, Ilov80s said:

You know SAT/college board is a non- profit organization institution. Do you call out Churches who run soup kitchens or charities who collect toys for kids socialism too? 

This is the "political" version.  It's kind of funny to compare the posts from some of the posters between what they say here in the PSF and what they say in the FFA.  Na...there's no fishing at all!!  :lol: 

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We put data, scores, numbers in context all the time in every walk of life, why wouldn’t some colleges be interested in doing that as well? 

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1 minute ago, The Commish said:

This is the "political" version.  It's kind of funny to compare the posts from some of the posters between what they say here in the PSF and what they say in the FFA.  Na...there's no fishing at all!!  :lol: 

So many people are just so quick to interject their political/social viewpoint into everything without often even understanding what the thing is or without giving it a lot of thought and research. It’s so annoying.

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25 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

So many people are just so quick to interject their political/social viewpoint into everything without often even understanding what the thing is or without giving it a lot of thought and research. It’s so annoying.

:goodposting:

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20 hours ago, Grace Under Pressure said:

The kids that literally bootstrap from an academic standpoint should be rewarded and ironically it’s conservatives that should be leading that charge. Isn’t that what they’re supposed to do, right, try hard and don’t be lazy and you can go to college? Oh you can’t though because it’s too expensive sorry kid. 

Isnt this story about bring accepted to the school?

Wheres the part about paying for it ?

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On 5/17/2019 at 5:39 AM, The Commish said:

Listening to the guy on NPR this morning, I'm not sure it will be data like specific income of parents.  It will be "average household income of the area" etc.  It will be information like number of kids on free lunch, the system's performance levels etc  Up a bit from individual detail at little more macro in nature.

I haven’t paid much attention to this story. My initial thought based on the headline was: why is the SAT company involving itself in this stuff?

But if The Commish’s description is accurate, I’m all for it. Giving some bonus points to applicants from poor neighborhoods would do two good things at once. 1. It would promote socioeconomic diversity on campus in a race-neutral way. 2. It would reduce opposition to building more affordable housing in expensive neighborhoods (since reducing the average cost of housing should help current residents of that neighborhood get into college).

Two birds, one stone. And it needs to be done nationally, not just by a couple universities here and there, to have the second effect, so the SAT company is well positioned to make it happen.

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4 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

 

Seemed like that was the point since my post was fairly specific. I didnt just make those numbers up either. That difference in score is from the report I linked earlier.

If you just happened to reply to my post and were just making a general argument, we actually agree. I dont have an issue with some sort of factor calculation for where the student came from. It just can't be as big of a calculation as it has become. 

It is a huge disservice to a student that isnt really qualified for a university to be let in and set up for failure. Graduation rates vary a great deal and there is no way these policies dont play into that. What good is 1.75 years of education at Yale? 

ok

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3 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I haven’t paid much attention to this story. My initial thought based on the headline was: why is the SAT company involving itself in this stuff?

But if The Commish’s description is accurate, I’m all for it. Giving some bonus points to applicants from poor neighborhoods would do two good things at once. 1. It would promote socioeconomic diversity on campus in a race-neutral way. 2. It would reduce opposition to building more affordable housing in expensive neighborhoods (since reducing the average cost of housing should help current residents of that neighborhood get into college).

Two birds, one stone. And it needs to be done nationally, not just by a couple universities here and there, to have the second effect, so the SAT company is well positioned to make it happen.

Well....to be fair, the opportunities for abuse ARE there.  So, if I am of a group that already thinks I am being discriminated against, I can see how they'd want to focus on the ways the system could be gamed.  My problem with these people is that they don't seem to be bothered by all the hurdles they didn't have to clear that others did to this point.  So, my response to them and their concern of abuse is their same to those who complain about the discrimination they faced prior to this and that is quite simple "try harder" :shrug: 

#1 is a HUGE potential benefit IMO and it would certainly quell some of the persecution complexes that people tend to carry around with them.

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I wonder how "extra time" factors in the new SAT scoring algorithm, as it's related to parent wealth. 

One of the most extreme examples is Newton North outside of Boston, where: One in three Newton North students eligible for extra SAT time

School Superintendent David Fleishman: “Do I think that more than 30% of our students have a disability? No. We have a history of over-identification [as learning-challenged] that is certainly an issue in the district .... virtually every time a student sees a private counselor for evaluation, he or she leaves with a recommendation for a special accommodation. 

Per the original WSJ article,  the average getting extra time among wealthy school districts is 4.2 percent, compared to 1.6 percent at low-income schools. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, SoBeDad said:

I wonder how "extra time" factors in the new SAT scoring algorithm, as it's related to parent wealth. 

One of the most extreme examples is Newton North outside of Boston, where: One in three Newton North students eligible for extra SAT time

School Superintendent David Fleishman: “Do I think that more than 30% of our students have a disability? No. We have a history of over-identification [as learning-challenged] that is certainly an issue in the district .... virtually every time a student sees a private counselor for evaluation, he or she leaves with a recommendation for a special accommodation. 

Per the original WSJ article,  the average getting extra time among wealthy school districts is 4.2 percent, compared to 1.6 percent at low-income schools. 

I think it’s a real concern. Are there legitimate cases where extra time is warranted?  Absolutely.  But there can be no doubt that there is abuse. The craziest story I’ve heard is from a co-worker at an elite private school. A friend of her daughter’s qualifies for extra time on the ACT. Her accommodation is that she gets twice as much time to take the test. And she only has to take one section per day.  Because the accommodation is administered inn Saturdays and Sundays, that mean she takes two sections one weekend (one section on Saturday and one section on Sunday) and the other two sections the following weekend, getting twice as much time for each section. My co-worker tells me that she’s a straight A student and as long as she and her daughter have been friends, she’s never heard about a learning disability or seen anything to indicate a disability. 

I know of another kid that was a private school student with extremely grades. Got diagnosed for the first time as a junior in high school, got extra time on his ACT and got a 35. He’s now at an elite university. Known this kid since he was in grade school - never heard anything about any sort of disability. Always been an amazing student that excelled in multiple extracurriculars. 

Is there abuse going on in the above examples?  Obviously, I can’t say for sure, but if a kid has never really struggled in school (while pursuing a rigorous curriculum) and has always excelled, it’s difficult to imagine that extra time is warranted. 

Edited by bigbottom

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6 minutes ago, bigbottom said:
1 hour ago, SoBeDad said:

I wonder how "extra time" factors in the new SAT scoring algorithm, as it's related to parent wealth. 

One of the most extreme examples is Newton North outside of Boston, where: One in three Newton North students eligible for extra SAT time

School Superintendent David Fleishman: “Do I think that more than 30% of our students have a disability? No. We have a history of over-identification [as learning-challenged] that is certainly an issue in the district .... virtually every time a student sees a private counselor for evaluation, he or she leaves with a recommendation for a special accommodation. 

Per the original WSJ article,  the average getting extra time among wealthy school districts is 4.2 percent, compared to 1.6 percent at low-income schools. 

I think it’s a real concern. Are there legitimate cases where extra time is warranted?  Absolutely.  But there can be no doubt that there is abuse. The craziest story I’ve heard is from a co-worker at an elite private school. A friend of her daughter’s qualifies for extra time on the ACT. Her accommodation is that she gets twice as much time to take the test. And she only has to take one section per day.  Because the accommodation is administered inn Saturdays and Sundays, that mean she takes two sections one weekend (one section on Saturday and one section on Sunday) and the other two sections the following weekend, getting twice as much time for each section. My co-worker tells me that she’s a straight A student and as long as she and her daughter have been friends, she’s never heard about a learning disability or seen anything to indicate a disability. 

I know of another kid that was a private school student with extremely grades. Got diagnosed for the first time as a junior in high school, got extra time on his ACT and got a 35. He’s now at an elite university. Known this kid since he was in grade school - never heard anything about any sort of disability. Always been an amazing student that excelled in multiple extracurricular. 

Is there abuse going on in the above examples?  Obviously, I can’t say for sure, but if a kid has never really struggled in school (while pursuing a rigorous curriculum) and has always excelled, it’s difficult to imagine that extra time is warranted. 

I think the diagnosis of such is a problem...always has been.  It will continue to be a problem, but I am struggling to see how this particular concern is affected by this new portal that's out there.  I don't think it addresses this particular issue meaning the issue is still a concern whether this score is provided or not.

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3 minutes ago, The Commish said:

I think the diagnosis of such is a problem...always has been.  It will continue to be a problem, but I am struggling to see how this particular concern is affected by this new portal that's out there.  I don't think it addresses this particular issue meaning the issue is still a concern whether this score is provided or not.

Oh yeah, this is a completely separate issue as far as I can tell. 

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30 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

Oh yeah, this is a completely separate issue as far as I can tell. 

:thumbup:  Thought I might be missing something.

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45 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

I think it’s a real concern. Are there legitimate cases where extra time is warranted?  Absolutely.  But there can be no doubt that there is abuse. The craziest story I’ve heard is from a co-worker at an elite private school. A friend of her daughter’s qualifies for extra time on the ACT. Her accommodation is that she gets twice as much time to take the test. And she only has to take one section per day.  Because the accommodation is administered inn Saturdays and Sundays, that mean she takes two sections one weekend (one section on Saturday and one section on Sunday) and the other two sections the following weekend, getting twice as much time for each section. My co-worker tells me that she’s a straight A student and as long as she and her daughter have been friends, she’s never heard about a learning disability or seen anything to indicate a disability. 

I know of another kid that was a private school student with extremely grades. Got diagnosed for the first time as a junior in high school, got extra time on his ACT and got a 35. He’s now at an elite university. Known this kid since he was in grade school - never heard anything about any sort of disability. Always been an amazing student that excelled in multiple extracurriculars. 

Is there abuse going on in the above examples?  Obviously, I can’t say for sure, but if a kid has never really struggled in school (while pursuing a rigorous curriculum) and has always excelled, it’s difficult to imagine that extra time is warranted. 

My sons class of 125 kids had 3 kids diagnosed with disabilities in high school which allowed them extra for all tests.  It’s definitely being done to afford an advantage to their kids so they get better grades and get into a better college.

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I think "time" is a red herring of sorts - I think the better question is whether they should just extend the time for all students - so that you are testing just aptitude, and not speed.

 

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19 minutes ago, stlrams said:

My sons class of 125 kids had 3 kids diagnosed with disabilities in high school which allowed them extra for all tests.  It’s definitely being done to afford an advantage to their kids so they get better grades and get into a better college.

Now imagine instead of the 3 kids, it was 37 like the 30% rate at the school in the article. 

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4 hours ago, SoBeDad said:

I wonder how "extra time" factors in the new SAT scoring algorithm, as it's related to parent wealth. 

One of the most extreme examples is Newton North outside of Boston, where: One in three Newton North students eligible for extra SAT time

School Superintendent David Fleishman: “Do I think that more than 30% of our students have a disability? No. We have a history of over-identification [as learning-challenged] that is certainly an issue in the district .... virtually every time a student sees a private counselor for evaluation, he or she leaves with a recommendation for a special accommodation. 

Per the original WSJ article,  the average getting extra time among wealthy school districts is 4.2 percent, compared to 1.6 percent at low-income schools. 

I never understood why people care and there's a race against a clock to complete an exam. Either you know the material or you don't. It's not like after an hour or whatever they give out the answers to the test. 

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52 minutes ago, 2Squirrels1Nut said:

I never understood why people care and there's a race against a clock to complete an exam. Either you know the material or you don't. It's not like after an hour or whatever they give out the answers to the test. 

Have you taken the ACT?  Speed is huge on that test (more so than the SAT). The reading section involves reading long passages and then answering questions that often require you to go back to review specific sections. It’s a race against the clock. Getting an extra 50% of time is huge as it allows you to spend more time analyzing the passage. Same thing with the math section - having extra time to methodically go through your calculations is a huge advantage.  Moreover, a lot of students run out of time and don’t even get to the last 5-10 questions of a section. Obviously, having 50% more time (or double time in some cases), would allow them to finish all the questions.

Of course, the extra time is not an advantage if you have a disability. I have no issue with extra time in legitimate situations. 

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It shouldn't be controversial to say these aptitude tests test how good you are at taking tests. Not so much about knowledge of the subject matter

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20 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

Have you taken the ACT?  Speed is huge on that test (more so than the SAT). The reading section involves reading long passages and then answering questions that often require you to go back to review specific sections. It’s a race against the clock. Getting an extra 50% of time is huge as it allows you to spend more time analyzing the passage. Same thing with the math section - having extra time to methodically go through your calculations is a huge advantage.  Moreover, a lot of students run out of time and don’t even get to the last 5-10 questions of a section. Obviously, having 50% more time (or double time in some cases), would allow them to finish all the questions.

Of course, the extra time is not an advantage if you have a disability. I have no issue with extra time in legitimate situations. 

Yes I took the ACT. I understand it's an advantage but don't get why it's even part of the equation. To me it is more important to see what someone knows instead of how fast they can take a test. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, 2Squirrels1Nut said:

Yes I took the ACT. I understand it's an advantage but don't get why it's even part of the equation. To me it is more important to see what someone knows instead of how fast they can take a test. 

Oh, you’re arguing that everyone should have plenty of time rather than it being a race against the clock. I can definitely see your point. 

Edited by bigbottom
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20 minutes ago, The Commish said:

It shouldn't be controversial to say these aptitude tests test how good you are at taking tests. Not so much about knowledge of the subject matter

The English section of the ACT definitely tests whether or not you know your grammar rules. And the math section definitely tests your competency at math. So while they do indeed test how good you are at taking tests, they do also test knowledge in certain subjects.  Of course, the science section of the ACT really doesn’t test knowledge of any scientific subject. It’s more of a logic test. 

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Posted (edited)

The extended time is meant for students with actual disabilities. I have to fill out the forms and go through the process of requesting accommodations for students if anyone has questions.

What a bunch of #######s faking a disability for extra time. 

Edited by Ilov80s
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17 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

The extended time is meant for students with actual disabilities. I have to fill out the forms and go through the process of requesting accommodations for students if anyone has questions.

What a bunch of #######s faking a disability for extra time. 

 

8 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

This is despicable. 

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3 minutes ago, 2Squirrels1Nut said:

 

This is despicable. 

The schools are legit about evaluating kids and won’t diagnose a disability unless the kid really qualifies. Doctors on the other hand, I think there are certain ones who have specialized in this kind of thing. Also ADHD is basically diagnosed through surveys. Anyone with half a brain could could lie on the surveys to make their kid come out with ADHD or some other emotional issue. It’s just more gaming of the system by some entitled a-holes.

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2 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

The schools are legit about evaluating kids and won’t diagnose a disability unless the kid really qualifies. Doctors on the other hand, I think there are certain ones who have specialized in this kind of thing. Also ADHD is basically diagnosed through surveys. Anyone with half a brain could could lie on the surveys to make their kid come out with ADHD or some other emotional issue. It’s just more gaming of the system by some entitled a-holes.

I have a child with Autism and ADHD so unfortunately know more about this than I want to. 

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Who is honestly surprised that a profession that "prescribes" emotional support animals and helps people get weed is now helping kids get extra time on tests?

 

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5 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Who is honestly surprised that a profession that "prescribes" emotional support animals and helps people get weed is now helping kids get extra time on tests?

 

Doctors? This is your take on the medical profession?

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You guys are funny.

Its outrageous that this is happening!!!!

But, but, How dare you call out the psychologists that allow this to happen!!!

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4 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

You guys are funny.

Its outrageous that this is happening!!!!

But, but, How dare you call out the psychologists that allow this to happen!!!

You called out an entire profession based on the actions of a few members of that profession.  

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Just now, OrtonToOlsen said:

You called out an entire profession based on the actions of a few members of that profession.  

A few?

We apparently have different meanings for that word. 

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